PDA

View Full Version : Sarcastic Paladin: How do I get away with it by RAW?



Kris Strife
2008-11-25, 12:56 PM
I've been trying to think of a character concept and decided to go with a sarcastic, slightly ***hole paladin. If Roy counts as LG with his attitude, I want to know how to have a paladin do it by RAW without Grey Guard. I might multiclass Bard with devoted performer feat, just for bardic knowledge check. Playgrounders, optimize this build by RAW!

lisiecki
2008-11-25, 12:57 PM
I've been trying to think of a character concept and decided to go with a sarcastic, slightly ***hole paladin. If Roy counts as LG with his attitude, I want to know how to have a paladin do it by RAW without Grey Guard. I might multiclass Bard with devoted performer feat, just for bardic knowledge check. Playgrounder, optimize this build by RAW!

Do you mean build wise, or how to be sarcastic with out breaking his oath?

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-25, 12:57 PM
You don't dip in bard for Bardic Knowledge...

wadledo
2008-11-25, 01:02 PM
Not entirely sure what you are talking about.

Paladin of Tyranny is kind of what I think you want, but what does Bardic knowledge have to do with anything?:smallconfused:

Magnor Criol
2008-11-25, 01:04 PM
There's no optimization or anything needed here (though from what I hear most people talking about, I think "paladin" is already deoptimized...)

This is simply a fluff / RP thing, it sounds like. Want to be a sarcastic paladin? Be a sarcastic paladin. There's no reason you can't be sarcastic as a paladin.

Sarcasm isn't some sort of inherent anti-LG action. Just as long as you act to save good people when you need to, and things are done in a just and fair way according to the code of ethics you've sworn yourself to, you can be as sarcastic as you want.

Also, yeah, if all you want is Bardic Knowledge, see if your DM will let you trade a pally ability for it; don't dip in Bard for it. That'd be a huge waste of a level.

Tengu_temp
2008-11-25, 01:04 PM
Code of Conduct

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladinís code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Nothing here says "don't be sarcastic" or "don't be an a-hole". And if your DM makes your paladin fall for snarky comments then he's an idiot - lawful good != naive boyscout.

Paramour Pink
2008-11-25, 01:05 PM
There's nothing directly stopping a sarcastic paladin. No part of your paladin vode stops it, and alignment's are meant to give you some character leeway (yes, even that LG one), so nothing can stop you but a DM.

Solaris
2008-11-25, 01:06 PM
Why the heck would he have to be a paladin of tyranny? Being morally good and ethically lawful while holding to a paladin's oath doesn't mean he can't be a wiseacre. Just because he complains about having to save the farmers for the tenth time this week, and why can't they just learn to fight the goblins their own dang selves, and remarking how bone-chillingly stupid everything is doesn't stop him from being a good, decent, honorable man.
After all, there's a big difference between the facade you present the world and the actions you perform. If I were you, I'd be as bitterly sarcastic as I wanted, but I'd go out of my way to 'begrudgingly' help a lot of people.

Eldan
2008-11-25, 01:07 PM
I don't see why a Paladin can't be sarcastic. I'm pretty certain most codices don't say anything about the kind of humour he has to enjoy.
Now, it's very important that while you are sarcastic, you still have to remain a paragon of lawful goodness. You have to help people and fight evil, but no one said you can't make bad jokes while doing so. Not all paladins need to be stuck-up lawyers, they can be just as lawful good while having a sense of humour. Of course, they can't let others be evil, but it doesn't say anything about fun.

lisiecki
2008-11-25, 01:10 PM
Nothing here says "don't be sarcastic" or "don't be an *******". And if your DM makes your paladin fall for snarky comments than he's an idiot - lawful good != naive boyscout.

If its just RP wise, then always remember the Clerks

"Just Because They Serve You Doesnít Mean They Like You"

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/lisieckiart/Houseposter-1.jpg

NOTE

I did not make the poster, i found it some where in the long ago

Telonius
2008-11-25, 01:12 PM
Well, starting off, I don't think you'd really need to change any alignments or do anything fancy with classes, just to be a sarcastic Paladin. There are a couple of Catholic saints who were notorious smartalecks - Thomas More and St. Lawrence the Martyr both had some pretty snarky last words. In keeping with the Arthurian tradition, Sir Gawain or Sir Kay might be good models for you. In a more modern setting, Spiderman. Lawful Good doesn't mean humorless. It just means that you're a generally good guy with a thirst for justice, and a predisposition for an orderly society. One of the descriptions of the Lawful Good alignment is that you speak out against injustice. There's nothing saying that "speaking out" can't involve using comedy.

Keld Denar
2008-11-25, 01:25 PM
You don't dip in bard for Bardic Knowledge...

I agree. DON'T dip bard for Bardic Knowledge. Dip Bard for INSPIRE COURAGE! Get Bardic Knowledge for free on top of that! :) I recommend a 3-4 level dip at most, if you are going to be spending a feat on Devoted Performer. Ranks in Perform: One-Liners can bring you hours of amusement if you are decent at them out of character. Use the typical IC shananagans to make up for the loss of BAB by a factor of about 5-6. :)

valadil
2008-11-25, 01:26 PM
For some odd reason I prefer a cynical paladin to a sarcastic one. He's seen the world and has begun to doubt his faith. He'll stick with being LG, but isn't sure it'll do enough good to change anything. I don't see how that wouldn't work in the RAW. In fact, if I ever play a paladin, that's what I'm going for. I think a character who questions his faith is much more interesting that one who blindly adheres to it.

Mechanics wise, I've always wanted to see a paladin 2/bard x. But that comes from my playing DDO where battle bards are feasible, but bardadins are not allowed due to alignment restrictions.

Heliomance
2008-11-25, 01:41 PM
Read the Dresden Files. Harry Dresden is LG, I'd say, but ye gods is he ever a wiseass.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-25, 01:44 PM
If you want to dip bard, use Dynamic Priest (Eberron feat) to base your divine spells off of Charisma and pick up Snowflake Wardance. You now have a Str/Con/Cha based character who can have a decent AB with a THW or a high AB with a single handed slashing weapon.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-11-25, 01:50 PM
Dynamic Priest? I'd never heard of that. Snowflake Wardance is a good use of a feat and a Bard level, though.

Also, you can look here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JerkWithAHeartOfGold) for some examples in fiction, although some are probably bigger jerks than you need to be. In particular, Sam Vimes is probably the best example of "Lawful Good ***hole" I've ever scene.

Blackfang108
2008-11-25, 02:11 PM
Dynamic Priest? I'd never heard of that. Snowflake Wardance is a good use of a feat and a Bard level, though.

Also, you can look here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JerkWithAHeartOfGold) for some examples in fiction, although some are probably bigger jerks than you need to be. In particular, Sam Vimes is probably the best example of "Lawful Good ***hole" I've ever scene.

no. he isn't "probably" the best example.

He is the True Example of LG snark, at the purest extreme.

However, some most of his deeds would cause a Paladin to fall. (Ignoring the commands of the authority for no good reason.)

Nerd-o-rama
2008-11-25, 02:40 PM
But he only ignores commands that his authority wants him to ignore. Unless his current authority is someone besides Vetinari, in which case they're invariably a complete self-defeating moron.

Make Vimes a little more consistent in his following orders and keep his attitude, though, and he's Paladin material.

Seriously, I don't get why you'd think there's a conflict between "being a paladin" and "being a smartass". They're independent of each other.

wadledo
2008-11-25, 02:43 PM
Why the heck would he have to be a paladin of tyranny? Being morally good and ethically lawful while holding to a paladin's oath doesn't mean he can't be a wiseacre. Just because he complains about having to save the farmers for the tenth time this week, and why can't they just learn to fight the goblins their own dang selves, and remarking how bone-chillingly stupid everything is doesn't stop him from being a good, decent, honorable man.
After all, there's a big difference between the facade you present the world and the actions you perform. If I were you, I'd be as bitterly sarcastic as I wanted, but I'd go out of my way to 'begrudgingly' help a lot of people.

Because he said optimization but the only thing he asked was Role playing?:smallconfused:

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 02:49 PM
there was a story thread over on EN world about a paladin very like this.

the "respect and concern for dignity of sentient beings" bit in description of Good might limit PC a bit, and Deva does say "the sort of thing we'd like you to cut down on" is Roy's verbal jabs, but Good beings can certainly be surly.

and Vimes pointed out the last "legal" authority died with the last king (killed by his ancestor) in Jingo. so in that sense "respect legitimate authority" has an out.

Ridureyu
2008-11-25, 02:50 PM
{Scrubbed}

Draz74
2008-11-25, 03:08 PM
{Scrubbed}

Ridureyu
2008-11-25, 03:09 PM
{Scrubbed}

Lappy9000
2008-11-25, 03:10 PM
{Scrubbed}

Oooooh, Holy Burn!

Back on topic, I don't see why it would be a problem playing a sarcastic paladin....

Human Paragon 3
2008-11-25, 03:14 PM
This seems apropos:

[spoiler]Amish Paridise Lyrics[

As I walk through the valley where I harvest my grain
I take a look at my wife and realize shes very plain
But thats just perfect for an amish like me
You know I shun fancy things like electricity
At 4:30 in the morning Im milkin cows
Jebediah feeds the chickens and jacob plows... fool
And Ive been milkin and plowin so long that
Even ezekiel thinks that my mind is gone
Im a man of the land, Im into discipline
Got a Bible in my hand and a beard on my chin
But if I finish all of my chores and you finish thine
Then tonight were gonna party like its 1699

We been spending most our lives
Living in an amish paradise
Ive churned butter once or twice
Living in an amish paradise
Its hard work and sacrifice
Living in an amish paradise
We sell quilts at a discount price
Living in an amish paradise

A local boy kicked me in the butt last week
I just smiled at him and I turned the other cheek
I really dont care, in fact I wish him well
cause Ill be laughing my head off when hes burning in hell
But I aint never punched a tourist even if he deserved it
An amish with a tude?
You know thats unheard of
I never wear buttons but I got a cool hat
And my homies agree
I really look good in black... fool
If you come to visit, youll be bored to tears
We havent even paid the phone bill in 300 years
But we aint really quaint, so please dont point and stare
Were just technologically impaired

Theres no phone, no lights, no motorcar
Not a single luxury
Like robinson caruso
Its as primitive as can be

We been spending most our lives
Living in an amish paradise
Were just plain and simple guys
Living in an amish paradise
Theres no time for sin and vice
Living in an amish paradise
We dont fight, we all play nice
Living in an amish paradise

Hitchin up the buggy, churnin lots of butter
Raised a barn on monday, soon Ill raise anutter
Think youre really righteous?
Think youre pure in heart?
Well, I know Im a million time as humble as thou art
Im the pious guy the little amlettes wanna be like
On my knees day and night scorin points for the afterlife
So dont be vain and dont be whiny
Or else, my brother, I might have to get medieval on your heinie

We been spending most our lives
Living in an amish paradise
Were all crazy mennonites
Living in an amish paradise
Theres no cops or traffic lights
Living in an amish paradise
But youd probably think it bites
Living in an amish paradise
/spoiler]

Draz74
2008-11-25, 03:17 PM
Back on topic, I don't see why it would be a problem playing a sarcastic paladin....

Yes, back on topic: I'm actually working on a sarcastic paladin character myself right now. He's pretty much supposed to be the antithesis of the "stick-up-his-butt lawyer" paladin. He will rush to the aid of the innocent cheerfully enough -- except perhaps to complain about his own moral ineptitude in the process; he's rather critical of himself -- but will certainly join in with others in complaining about bad weather, rotten luck in combat, or whatever else.

And is notoriously easygoing and laid-back. If his party want to loot graves, he'll not join in, but he'll let them do it with no reprimanding; he rationalizes this by figuring that, in the long run, they'll be better people if they think of him (and his example) as a friend, rather than as a rules-enforcer.

And he struggles with alcoholism.

Prometheus
2008-11-25, 03:21 PM
He saves the world, but he is clearly bothered by the fact that the world needs saving. Therefore, he begrudgingly helps and can be outright hostile to those who take it for granted.

Blackfang108
2008-11-25, 03:24 PM
But he only ignores commands that his authority wants him to ignore. Unless his current authority is someone besides Vetinari, in which case they're invariably a complete self-defeating moron.

Make Vimes a little more consistent in his following orders and keep his attitude, though, and he's Paladin material.

Seriously, I don't get why you'd think there's a conflict between "being a paladin" and "being a smartass". They're independent of each other.

Good point.

That. Is. Not. My. COW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kris Strife
2008-11-25, 03:33 PM
The optimization is the feats, race and equipment for a good bard/paladin cross class. And the reason for Bardic knowledge is so when the wizard gets stumped or tries acting like he knows every thing, I can make a BardKnow check and shut him up. I wanted do have that from the wish thread when some one said 'you can't know every thing about eefreeti' and I thought of the first OotS that theyre in the Azure City jail and Elan passes his BaKnow check. Considering I know ridiculous amounts of random trivia...

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 03:42 PM
Devoted Performer feat from Complete Adventurer enables you to advance both classes (and some, only a few, properties from both classes use the combined level.)

Without it, cannot advance both. could be bard-paladin with full powers, but not paladin-bard, since bard retains powers when it becomes Lawful (just cannot advance), but paladins don't when they become non-lawful.

Draz74
2008-11-25, 03:45 PM
Devoted Performer feat from Complete Adventurer enables you to advance both classes (and some, only a few, properties from both classes use the combined level.)

Specifically, Smite Damage increases from Bard levels, and Bardic Music uses/day increases with Paladin levels. But Smite uses/day and effects of Music don't.

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 03:48 PM
yes- not great, but better than an ex-bard paladin, who won't even get that.

Kris Strife
2008-11-25, 04:06 PM
Definantly planned on getting devoted performer, probably when I took my first Bard level. Are there any feats that let bards cast 7th level spells?

Eldan
2008-11-25, 04:16 PM
Certainly not via feats. The best way to get higher level spells is via Sublime Chord, which goes up to 9, but then you can't increase Paladin.

hamishspence
2008-11-25, 04:20 PM
epic Improved Spell Capacity feats, for metamagic bard spells, but thats not likely to come up for a very long time.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-11-25, 04:21 PM
Definantly planned on getting devoted performer, probably when I took my first Bard level. Are there any feats that let bards cast 7th level spells?

No, but the Sublime Chord PrC gets bards 9th Level spellcasting. It's really more meant for pure Bards, but you could stick in a level or two of Paladin with no ill effects. Paladin 2/Bard 7/Sublime Chord would work nicely. You're not going to be able to increase Paladin any more, though.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-25, 04:48 PM
The optimization is the feats, race and equipment for a good bard/paladin cross class. And the reason for Bardic knowledge is so when the wizard gets stumped or tries acting like he knows every thing, I can make a BardKnow check and shut him up. I wanted do have that from the wish thread when some one said 'you can't know every thing about eefreeti' and I thought of the first OotS that theyre in the Azure City jail and Elan passes his BaKnow check. Considering I know ridiculous amounts of random trivia...

Morbo says that Bardic Knowledge doesn't work that way.

Your chances of outdoing the knowledge-monkey with a Bardic Knowledge check that you have low modifiers on is trivial.

Devils_Advocate
2008-11-25, 05:58 PM
The problem with a sarcastic paladin -- and I'm surprised that no one else recognized this -- is that paladins are forbidden from lying. They aren't suppose to say things that are factually untrue, and there is no exception given for statements made in a snarky tone of voice. True, it's a fairly technical violation, but "so that I can be rude to people" really isn't sufficient justification for even that, as rudeness isn't a justification for anything. Even frequently doing this may not qualify as a gross violation, which is what's required to make a paladin fall, but it's still not in keeping with being a good paladin. We can do better than that.

The solution to this problem is that there are other forms of sarcasm.

"Let me see if I've got this straight. Are you saying that ?"

"Well, yes, I suppose that you [I]could risk your own life and the lives of many innocent people to pursue wholly unnecessary vengeance against a personal enemy. However, as an alternative, allow me to suggest a course of action which is neither stupid nor evil."

To quote Dogbert, "Sometimes sarcasm helps us think more clearly."

Tengu_temp
2008-11-25, 06:14 PM
Since when sarcasm is lying? You're not stating the truth, yeah, but the people you talk with know that you're being sarcastic.

Kris Strife
2008-11-25, 07:49 PM
Since when sarcasm is lying? You're not stating the truth, yeah, but the people you talk with know that you're being sarcastic.

yeah, but a paladin hating DM (which never happens, even on here), would certainly make it a fall-able offence. Even one that doesn't hate paladins might take it or being a not quite Dennis Leary's I'm am ***hole level ***hole paladin would make you fall.
BTW, Vimes would have levels in Grey Guard, and maybe Smite Idiot.

BRC
2008-11-25, 07:52 PM
If your DM hates pallys, I reccomend you don't play one. Of all the classes, they are the easiest for DM's to mess around with, as so much can be up to interpretation.
"A group of city watchmen approach and say you are under arrest"
"I protest my innocence, but don't resist"
"Claiming that government officials are lying is considered sedition in this city, which is against the law. You fall for performing a chaotic act"

Kris Strife
2008-11-25, 08:08 PM
Well, if I know they hate pallies and we're not starting at 1st, I would take Grey Guard, just to go: "Greyguard remember? I'd pretty much have to willingly run around stabbing babies and little old ladies to fall."
I don't have CSc or guaranteed access to it, so I'm hesitant to do that if I dont know for certain they hate pallies. This is a just in case. Plus my response to they guards would be: "Can I know the charges gentlemen? And is the warrant for all of us, or just him?" *tilt head at party rouge*

Tengu_temp
2008-11-25, 08:10 PM
yeah, but a paladin hating DM (which never happens, even on here), would certainly make it a fall-able offence.

Yeah, but a paladin-hating DM would make anything a fallable offence, including trying to eat a ham sandwich (the pig was innocent, by eating its meat you participate in murder!).

Kris Strife
2008-11-25, 08:16 PM
Yeah, but a paladin-hating DM would make anything a fallable offence, including trying to eat a ham sandwich (the pig was innocent, by eating its meat you participate in murder!).

"Ah, but I only eat ham from Heronius Valley farms, where detect evil is cast on each individual pig by three paladins to insure its evil, then purified with 7 secret rituals and flavored with 13 sacred herbs & spices to make sure these are the holiest ham sandwiches ever!"

Tengu_temp
2008-11-25, 08:17 PM
How can a bred pig be evil, by the way?

Eldan
2008-11-25, 08:19 PM
It ate holy acorns. For fun.

Devils_Advocate
2008-11-25, 08:21 PM
As Stupendous_Man points out, the problem with playing this guy as a know-it-all wiseass is that while being a wiseass is mostly roleplaying, knowing it all isn't, and paladins are just a poor choice if you want to optimize for winning Trivial Pursuit. :smalltongue: If you want this guy to be good at that, you'd be better off making a straight bard or a cloistered cleric or an archivist. He can still be Lawful Good, unless he's a bard. Even then, maybe you can convince the DM that restricting bards from Lawful alignments is stupid. (It pretty much is, after all.)


If your DM hates pallys, I reccomend you don't play one. Of all the classes, they are the easiest for DM's to mess around with, as so much can be up to interpretation.
"A group of city watchmen approach and say you are under arrest"
"I protest my innocence, but don't resist"
"Claiming that government officials are lying is considered sedition in this city, which is against the law. You fall for performing a chaotic act"
That would be pretty harsh, especially considering that the paladin didn't actually contradict them, since they didn't accuse him of anything yet. If the DM says that you fall for something you didn't even do, then it probably is time to consider a different class, or maybe a different DM.

Kris Strife
2008-11-25, 08:21 PM
How can a bred pig be evil, by the way?

It rebel against its parents, falls in with a bad crowd and generally makes the lives of everyone it knows miserable.
Honestly, from what I've heard, its hard to imagine them not being evil

Edit: Devils Advocate, devoted performer lets you be a lawful good bard and freely multiclass between bard and paladin. And its more random, but useful trivia knowledge (which is how I see BardKnow) than anything else.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-11-25, 08:56 PM
I wouldn't bother with Bardic Knowledge, really, but it's up to you. Pal 2/Bard whatever is a workable build if you only want smiting and +Cha to saves out of your Paladin levels. It gets you plenty of Bardic Knowledge (which you want) and Bardic Spellcasting (which you ought to want) at the cost of the Paladin's tanking prowess.

Also, if your DM is enough of a jerk to make your Paladin fall for being sarcastic, he's enough of a jerk to make him fall arbitrarily regardless.

Zen Master
2008-11-26, 10:24 AM
{Scrubbed}

I'm not sure any of them would have been able to keep the paladins vow tho.

Telonius
2008-11-26, 10:36 AM
How can a bred pig be evil, by the way?

Here's how (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm). :smallbiggrin:

Epinephrine
2008-11-26, 02:12 PM
Read the Dresden Files. Harry Dresden is LG, I'd say, but ye gods is he ever a wiseass.

Dresden? LG? No way. He doesn't hesitate to break the law when it suits him, and acts in the interest of the greater good rather than follows rules. I'd say NG.

Now Morgan, there's an example of a LG ***hole. Well, LG-ish. He's got the lawful part down pat, and he tries for good too.

But as everyone has said, nothing says that a paladin has to be "nice", just that they must observe their code. I'm sure some paladins would view the sarcastic-jerk paladin as an affront of some sort, but as long as he's serving the deity faithfully his powers are evidence of a lack of disapproval.

RebelRogue
2008-11-26, 04:57 PM
As Stupendous_Man points out, the problem with playing this guy as a know-it-all wiseass is that while being a wiseass is mostly roleplaying, knowing it all isn't, and paladins are just a poor choice if you want to optimize for winning Trivial Pursuit. :smalltongue:
Seriously though, the best opportunities for sarcasm happens with people doing/suggesting stuff indicative of low Wisdom, not low Intelligence/Knowledge. A paladin should be able to play that game just fine!

lord_khaine
2008-11-26, 06:47 PM
Read the Dresden Files. Harry Dresden is LG, I'd say, but ye gods is he ever a wiseass.

Considering Dresdens love for authority i would actualy go as long as to call him CG.

Sam Vimes on the other hand, i would think is proper LG material.

Prak
2008-11-26, 07:18 PM
another character you could look at for inspiration is Spider Jerusalem from Transmetropolitan (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Transmetropolitan).

You'd have to cut out Spider's more violent impulses, or play a grey guard, but he really is a good guy at his core, the city people in general just bring out the worst in him.

and he seems to utterly hate dogs, but...

He's an ass, but he's fighting for truth and justice, but not the american way... well, not the Beast's american way... maybe the american way as it once was, but...

um, I digress. I do think Spider would be a good point of inspiration for a jerkass paladin, with some moderation.

Heliomance
2008-11-26, 08:34 PM
Dresden? LG? No way. He doesn't hesitate to break the law when it suits him, and acts in the interest of the greater good rather than follows rules. I'd say NG.

Now Morgan, there's an example of a LG ***hole. Well, LG-ish. He's got the lawful part down pat, and he tries for good too.

But as everyone has said, nothing says that a paladin has to be "nice", just that they must observe their code. I'm sure some paladins would view the sarcastic-jerk paladin as an affront of some sort, but as long as he's serving the deity faithfully his powers are evidence of a lack of disapproval.

Morgan's not Good. He's Lawful Neutral, with strong tendencies towards Lawful Anal.

Roderick_BR
2008-11-27, 07:00 AM
Play a military sarge type. Your charisma shows up your ability to give orders, not being nice. Being sarcastic and yelling at people doesn't make you stop being LG.
Maybe dip Marshal (miniatures handbook) for some auras?

"You are all dishonorably discharged."

Avilan the Grey
2008-11-27, 07:27 AM
yeah, but a paladin hating DM (which never happens, even on here), would certainly make it a fall-able offence. Even one that doesn't hate paladins might take it or being a not quite Dennis Leary's I'm am ***hole level ***hole paladin would make you fall.
BTW, Vimes would have levels in Grey Guard, and maybe Smite Idiot.

Well I don't know about the OP, but I would never play as a paladin witha paladin-hating DM. Or as the famous American saying goes: "Duh!".:smallbiggrin:

The one thing that I always wonder about is the "You shalt not lie" thing in general, since it would make a person non-functional in society. Seriously. Studies has shown that we lie 10-20 times a day just to function. These are not LIES, just half-truths, white lies and forgetting to mention things so that we do not get stuck on the path that is the Every Day Life. And these are not even lies that we are conscious of doing.

These includes answering the questions like "How are you feeling?" with "Oh I'm fine, thanks for asking" instead of "I have a mild tooth-ache, my foot itches, my nails are a little long and I think I really need to fart", or "How do I look in this dress?" with "You look great honey" instead of "Oh please why do you ask me that? I HATE answering your stupid questions! Get on with it and lets go!" (alternatively "I want to do you. Now.", depending on the dress-wearer and dress).

At least with a sarcastic character the paladin can answer the first question with "How do I LOOK like I'm feeling?" :smalltongue:



Anyway, it was just a thought.

BobVosh
2008-11-27, 07:31 AM
How can a bred pig be evil, by the way?

Way back when it has an orc in the family bloodline. It still has the evil gene.

Avilan the Grey
2008-11-27, 07:35 AM
Way back when it has an orc in the family bloodline. It still has the evil gene.

Does this means that 2E Orcs taste like pig?
"Bring me the barbecue sauce! CHAAARGE!"

Prak
2008-11-27, 09:59 AM
But canniblism is still evil, it'd one thing that doesn't make allowances for relative alignment.

AslanCross
2008-11-27, 10:16 AM
Agreed with all of the above. I'm pretty sure sarcasm doesn't necessarily mean one is evil.
Still, I'd think it would be more paladin-ish to be brutally honest (lawful), but well-meaning (good). Something along the lines of:

"Your countenance. It speaks to me. It tells me, quite frankly, that you might wish to consider the alchemist's skin ointments."

"You've got quite a paunch there. Unless you are planning to embark on a lucrative career as a model for one of the spheres in the local Wizard's orrery, you might wish to avoid the pork pies and go split some wood regularly."

"Milady, unfortunately, I am bound by my code not to escort you to the ball. My order might fault me for consorting with a night hag."

He'd be a stab-you-in-the-front kind of guy. He wouldn't say this to anyone, nor would he let others hear it. He'd tell the person, point-blank, probably in a whisper.

So snarky, but not necessarily sarcastic.

Knaight
2008-11-27, 01:44 PM
But canniblism is still evil, it'd one thing that doesn't make allowances for relative alignment.

Why? I know I would much rather be eaten when I die and prevent people from starving than rot in the ground useless. Killing your own species for food and only food would be evil, but eating your own species wouldn't be. What if you had an upstanding person who always tried to help people, did much more than their fair share of the work, was nice to people, etc. but happened to be part of a tribe that practiced cannibalism, without killing the people for it, where being eaten after death was seen as a huge honor? Would they be evil? Really?

hamishspence
2008-11-27, 02:00 PM
I take the view that cannibalism when you murdered the victim is always evil, if the victim died of natural causes, and the motivation for it was survival or cultural, might be passable.

For example, in Queen on the Damned, Mekare and Maharet practice cannibalism for cultural reasons, of tribal members who die of natural causes.

if there is just you two in a boat, and murder and cannibalism is only way to live to reach safety- so what? Still murder.