Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella

[KevLar]

A towering figure in a dark robe enters the room where you have been milling around sizing up the competition. His face is completely obscured by his hood. He raises both hands to get your attention and speaks in a deep voice.

Moby, Stella. You have been chosen to fight. Prepare yourselves!

With that he brings his hands down and the two of you find yourself transported to the arena (http://excessivefreetime.org/arena/arena3.html)

OOC:
You've got time for one swift action and one standard action before you get transported in case you need to adopt a stance or activate an item.

On the map, green is open terrain, yellow is difficult terrain, red/brown is the cliffs (10ft, Climb DC20, blocks LoS). Arena has a 60 foot ceiling.

Opening post should have an initiative roll, anything you said after he called your name and what, if anything you did with the 'surprise round' before being transported. After that, start fighting in initiative order.


Positions
Moby:
Horizontal Axis: [roll0]
Vertical Axis: [roll1]

Stella:
Horizontal Axis: [roll2]
Vertical Axis: [roll3]

[KevLar]

Positions

Moby:
Horizontal Axis: [roll0]
Vertical Axis: [roll1]

Stella:
Horizontal Axis: [roll2]
Vertical Axis: [roll3]

[KevLar]

Surprise Round

Stella seems to pray for a moment, apparently to an unspeakably evil god, and then she shouts:
"All right, let's be quick now!"
standard action: Divine Shield
swift action: project Marshal's Aura (Motivate Dexterity)

Initiative: [roll0]

I believe I am in Y-25 and you in AG-22. How many squares do you cover, again?

[Talic]

The low rumble of a growl fills the arena, causing pebbles across the arena to rattle... Then comes the roared challenge....

IMMA EET YOO!

3x3. So I'm in AG-AI / 22-24

I begin in hybrid form (the form statted out in my char sheet).
I begin with Greataxe in hand.

Init: [roll0]

My pre actions:Swift: Activate stance: Step of the Wind
Standard: Ready an action - Use maneuver - Emerald Razor - if opponent enters within range

My Maneuvers Readied:Warblade: Elder Mountain Hammer, Overwhelming Mountain Strike, Stone Vise, Sudden Leap

Swordsage: Counter Charge, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Emerald Razor, Mind Strike

[KevLar]

Round 1


Swift Action: Activate Stance of Alacrity Clarity. I don't have Alacrity.:smalltongue:
Forgot to roll for maneuvers again.
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]

I'm not done yet, give me a sec. :)

[KevLar]

Stella sees the beast in front of her and charges at it, without any foreplay.

Free action: Divine Might.
Full Round action: Battle Leader's Charge, +10 dmg, no AoO
the attack is a Charging Smite. +39 damage, with Demolishing Strike Smite (tactical option from Awesome Smite feat), ignores DR.
EDIT- With PA 1, so that Demolishing Smite applies.

Smite left: 7 (8 if I miss)
Rebuke left: 17
Divine Shield rounds left: 6

AC: 48 + 2 stance + 1 dodge +13 divine shield = 64

attack: [roll0]
damage: [roll1]
This attack ignores any DR up to 26, except DR/-
This movement does not provoke AoO

EDIT- I forgot my new item. If it hits, add 13 fire damage.
EDIT2- Sorry again, remove 1 from attack and add 1 to damage.

EDIT3- The dog needs walking. 20 minutes. :)

[Talic]

You triggered my readied action.

Check my "pre battle actions".

Emerald Razor:
Attack: [roll0] This is a touch attack.
If hit: [roll1]

[Talic]

My Turn.
Fast healing 2, I lose 2 points of damage.
Current damage taken: 82

5 foot step back.

Full round action: Full attack:

Attack 1: Sunder. No AoO (Imp sunder feat)
Opposed attack roll: [roll0] (+8 for being 2 size categories larger, +4 for using a 2 handed weapon, +4 for Improved Sunder
If Successful: [roll1] (Standard longsword has 10 hardness and 5 hp. A +3 longsword should have 16 hardness and 35 hp.)

Attack 2: Sunder.
Opposed attack roll: [roll2]
If successful: [roll3]

Further attacks forthcoming, after I see the results of these 2.

EDIT: Well, you have a shot. That's a 2 and a 3 rolled.

[KevLar]

It did hit. Since I'm not down yet, does that mean I get to finish my action?

If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

EDIT- I mean before you unleashed the sundering fury. :)

[Talic]

It did hit. Since I'm not down yet, does that mean I get to finish my action?

Yes. I annotated the 84 damage, and then removed 2 with fast healing.
I followed with the start of my turn, after your charge.

[KevLar]

Basically, your first attack is an automatic success. :)
(And by that, I mean the longsword is sundered.)
You may now use the rest of them to beat me to a pulp there.

[Talic]

The 1st attack doesn't break the weapon, assuming it's +3. If it's only a +2 weapon, it choppifies it.

The 2nd attack, if it hits, will break the weapon, as long as it's less than +5 enhancement bonus.

[Talic]

Assuming the 2nd attack sunders it.

Sundering Cleave: Combat brute. I get an additional attack on you, at the same bonus as the one that cleaved. That's a +28 bonus.

Free Attack: [roll0]
If hit: [roll1]

Attack 3: [roll2]
If hit: [roll3]

Done for now.

Free attack hits on a nat 20. Other attack likely misses.

[KevLar]

The second attack is an automatic success too. :smalltongue:
Do go on.

[KevLar]

OK, I'm down to 19 hp, less than half means fast healing kicks in so it's now 20. Unless some of that damage was from Power Attack, in which case, the extra damage doesn't apply (Elusive Target).

[Talic]

No, your AC is too high, I'm not gonna Power Attack.

[KevLar]

Round 2

OOC: I hope you will not see this as meta-gaming. You play a beast that shouts "IMMA EET YOO", after all. And I hope you will not see this as cheese. I never meant to use this unless I had no other options.
(Unless you are immune to drain, in which case, never mind. :smalltongue:)

Now unarmed, Stella screams in fury, flies up 5 ft in apparent astonishment and dives again. She stretches her incorporeal hand to the beast as if she wants to rip its heart out. Or its ankles, at this height.

spring attack with Draining Touch (Su)
attack: 1d20 + 14 BAB + 13 Slippers + 1 weapon focus (unarmed, from Stone Dragon discipline focus

attack: [roll0]
This is an unarmed touch attack (considered magic from slam, if I'm not mistaken).
If it hits, ability drain [roll1] Intelligence.
This movement does not provoke AoO.

Then she dives to the ground, where she disappears.

[with total cover, I'm sliding inside the ground 35 ft west, ending up in AG-17. Bah, I messed up the math again. 5 ft up +10 down, so I have 25 ft left. I end up in AG-19.]

[KevLar]

Wait, important typo. It wasn't a d6, it's a d4. Again:

[roll0]

[KevLar]

I keep forgetting to roll for maneuvers...
Taking the first that applies
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]

Hit points: 21 from fast healing, 26 if the drain worked.
Smite left: 7
Rebuke left: 17
Divine Shield rounds left: 5
AC: 48 + 2 stance + 1 dodge +13 divine shield = 64

[Talic]

I do see it just a bit cheesy, but it works.

You currently do not have LOS, so there will be no charging for you.

Swift: Use Sudden Leap. [roll0] North.
Standard: Activate Winged boots.
Move: Continue Moving, Ending at C-E/23-25.

Done.

(heal 2 hp)

[KevLar]

Round 3

OOC:
Don't think for a minute that I don't feel bad about it. I do. But without the longsword, there's absolutely nothing I can do except use ghost special attacks or surrender. And I took the two special attacks that are, in fact, attacks, (though the damage dealing one - 1d6! - is completely worthless), because I wanted them to be warrior-like. There are enervating weapons, after all. Horrific Appearance, now that would be cheesy, although entirely legal. After that, it makes perfect sense to try and drain Intelligence from a.. huge.. strangely... deformed... wolf-ogre, instead of, say, strength.
OK, I'm done apologizing. :)

Still underground, Stella moves to the relative safety of AG-17.

Crusader maneuver, I remembered you!
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
Fast healing +1,
Standard action: Deadly Touch (heals undead) for 76 hit points.

Hit points: full (103)
Smite left: 7
Rebuke left: 17
Divine Shield rounds left: 4
Deadly Touch hit points left: 67
AC: 48 + 2 stance + 1 dodge +13 divine shield = 64

I'm still there, preparing. Your turn.

[Talic]

(heal 2) 78 damage remaining

Full round action: Recover maneuver "Emerald Razor"

Done

[KevLar]

Round 4

Swift action: Law Devotion (+7 to AC for 10 rounds, can relocate it to attack at the beginning of every round.)
Move action: move to the top of the pillar/rock.
Standard action: ready action to go back inside if you are - or move- 30 ft away.

Hit points: full (103)
Smite left: 7
Rebuke left: 17
Divine Shield rounds left: 4
Deadly Touch hit points left: 67
AC: 48 + 2 stance + 1 dodge +13 divine shield +7 Law Devotion = 71
Law Devotion rounds left: 9

still there, still preparing... (it won't last long, I'm coming out next round).
I have readied an action too.
I am at the same square, at the top (concealment), hiding.
[roll0]

free action to find you (and I also have lifesense)
spot: [roll1]
listen: [roll2]

[Talic]

Move: to B-D/15-17 (30 feet in the air)
Ready an action:Move if my opponent moves within 10 feet of me

Done.

((Edit: 76 damage remaining))

[KevLar]

Round 5

I believe I can see you. Double move to R-17 (inside the pillar), still 20 ft up, lowering 5 ft (80 ft movement total), hiding half-in-the-pillar (cover, not concealment, I got it wrong again) and looking out.
(A double move doesn't count as running, does it? If so, remove another 15 from the hide check.)
hide: [roll0] (with a -5 penalty for moving more than half-speed.)

If at any point my actions are interrupted by something that makes you undetectable (though, with Lifesense and you being Huge, I doubt it), free action to find you.
spot: [roll1]
listen: [roll2]

Hit points: full (103)
Smite left: 7
Rebuke left: 17
Divine Shield rounds left: 3
Deadly Touch hit points left: 67
AC: 48 + 2 stance + 1 dodge +13 divine shield +7 Law Devotion = 71
Law Devotion rounds left: 8

Rolling for 2 maneuvers:
[roll3]
[roll4]
[roll5]
[roll6]
[roll7]

[Talic]

Note: Pillars are 10 feet tall, per Lyndworm. 20 feet up would put you outside one.

And no, double move isn't run.

[KevLar]

Sorry. Then I've been at an altitude of 10 ft all this time, and then I lowered to 5 ft (which is ground level, I guess).

[Talic]

Fair nuff. I maintain my position and readied action.

74 damage.

[KevLar]

Round 6

Moving to I-17, half in the ground all the way, looking out.
hide: [roll0] (-5 penalty)

Hit points: full (103)
Smite left: 7
Rebuke left: 17
Divine Shield rounds left: 2
Deadly Touch hit points left: 67
AC: 48 + 2 stance + 1 dodge +13 divine shield +7 Law Devotion = 71
Law Devotion rounds left: 7

Rolling for 1 maneuver:
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]

[Talic]

Stay at B-D / 15-17.

It should be noted that I have Blindsight.

[KevLar]

Round 7

I am incorporeal and make no noise. According to Rules Compendium, you can't detect me unless I intentionally make noise. However, since SRD is vague on the subject (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype) :

Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures.
... I can accept you detecting me. If you think you should.

Stella emerges from the pillar and flies towards Moby, hand stretched out again.

- You! Broke! My! Sword!

Incorporeal touch attack
Attack: [roll0]
ability damage: [roll1] Intelligence.
No AoO

I think I have no movement left, so I stay there and pray. I think I have 5 ft of movement left, so I move 5ft to the right, so that spring attack applies. And pray.

spring attack, smite for the touch attack and Draining Touch
attack: 14 BAB + 13 slippers + 1 weapon focus (unarmed) + 15 smite = 43
AC: 48 + 2 stance + 1 dodge +13 divine shield +7 Law Devotion = 71
Touch AC: 29 if Divine Shield doesn't count, 42 if it does (not sure).

Hit points: full (103)
Smite left: 6
Rebuke left: 17
Divine Shield rounds left: last round (damn, I counted wrong, does not apply for the next round. Damn.)
Deadly Touch hit points left: 67
Law Devotion rounds left: 6

Rolling for 1 maneuver:
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]

[Talic]

Readied action triggers, when you get to 10 feet.

Move Until I'm 20 feet away. You should have 10 feet of movement, which isn't enough to reach me. Continue your turn. If this isn't enough to attack, which it shouldn't be, then you can't use Spring attack to avoid the AOO.

[KevLar]

Correct. I can't reach you and you can make AoO if I leave a square you threaten.
EDIT- Unless I tumble.

Seeing Moby moving away, Stella stops momentarily (when 10 ft away from your previous position) and keeps moving forward instead of attacking. She ends her movement 5 ft away from Moby.

After the interruption, I'm replacing my standard action (attack) with another move action. 40 ft more should bring me there. (I can do that, right?)

For the second move action, she tumbles.
1d20+34

[Talic]

Technically, Stella is required to complete the action which triggered the Ready action, if possible.

My trigger was "if you moved within 10 feet".
The readied action, per readied action rules (SRD) resolves before the action which triggered it. I move.
After I complete that, you complete your action which triggered it, unless that action is now illegal.

Which is, in this case, a movement From 20 feet away from me to another square that is 20 feet away from me.

Which, since you cannot spring attack, triggers an Attack of Opportunity.

I'll let you independently corroborate that, before making any rolls, but, by my understanding of readied actions, there is no possible way you can prevent the AoO.

EDIT: Granted, your AC is in the stratosphere right now, I'm sure, meaning I'll need pretty much a nat 20 to hit you, but it's still there.

[KevLar]

Oops, I just edited above. Read and tell me if it's possible, while I look up the readied action rules again. (A headache. :) )

[KevLar]

RAW is a bit hazy.

Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
"He continues his actions" doesn't necessarily mean his already declared actions. Conditions have changed, shouldn't he be able to do something else from that point on, if he chooses?

EDIT - Say I'm a sniper, crouching behind a wall. I get up and prepare to fire, but you have moved opposite of the wall, without me noticing, and have readied an action to attack me as soon as I show up. You attack me and you almost kill me. Shouldn't I be able to change the rest of my action to, say, activate an item that teleports me the hell away from there? It makes sense to me.

[Talic]

True, however:

My action occurs right before your action that triggers it, per RAW.
Now, my action cannot occur before yours if you never complete that.

I see no problem with you adjusting the remainder of your action after the trigger, but the trigger has to happen for the action to have any sort of sense.

If you don't move into that square, you never triggered. If you never triggered, I didn't move. If I didn't move, you continue the spring attack. If you continue the spring attack, you trigger... Paradox.

EDIT: In your sniper example, yes, you should. However, you should not be able to say that you never stood up. The trigger must occur. And it's the trigger that provokes the AoO.

[KevLar]

Yes, I understand this. I have definitely reached 10 ft from your previous position. Only then I'll change the rest of my actions.

If you think I can move and tumble after your readied move action, then no AoO (automatic success, unless you have a trick up your sleeve.) If not, go ahead and take the AoO and tell me where I am. :smallsmile:

[Talic]

I'll give you tumble this time, though it may not be entirely kosher.

For example, often I'll set readied action with the action to move, if you perform any action that would provoke. Then when you do, I move, right before it, to near you. You have to complete the trigger, and bam, I get an AoO with the move.

It wasn't the intent on this move (the intent was to avoid any attack you planned on making), so I'll let you throw a tumble on there. Especially as I don't see the 5% shot as really meaningful anyway.

[KevLar]

Well take the AoO then. 5% or not.

EDIT - So kids, what have we learned today? From now on, against creatures with reach, we tumble every single round!

[Talic]

[roll0]
Not throwing the mod on it, because it's around 34, and I'm almost positive your AC is at 54 or higher.

Damage: [roll1]

Edit: miss. Continue. Further movement won't trigger any more.

EDIT2: Agreed. Unless something prevents your tumble, such as a charge. Heck, when running casters, I ALWAYS cast defensively. I could be on the open plains, without a visible soul to the horizon. Still, Defensive casting.

[KevLar]

Correct. Your turn.

EDIT - The rest of my action would be to move 5 ft away from you. Tumbling. :smalltongue:

EDIT EDIT - I mean move close to you, and stop 5 ft away.

[Talic]

Correct. Your turn.

EDIT - The rest of my action would be to move 5 ft away from you. Tumbling. :smalltongue:

EDIT EDIT - I mean move close to you, and stop 5 ft away.

My Action.

Standard: Ring of invisibility GO! *turn invisible*
Move:45 feet south, and down to ground level. (total move - 60)
Swift: Sudden leap: [roll0] Moving South more.

EDIT: 100 feet south of you, 30 feet below you. total distance: 125, and invisible.
EDIT2: Oh yeah, and heal 2 hp more.

[KevLar]

Before continuing, you do agree that my lifesense makes your invisibility irrelevant, right?

(It means I may not know what you look like, but I know exactly where you are, pinpointing you. To my eyes, you are a shining beacon.)

[Talic]

Yes and no. I emit light, true. However, I am an invisible light source (it's possible, read the invisibility spell), and still benefit from total concealment.

So you know where I am, but, since I have total concealment, you cannot take Attacks of Opportunity against me. (in other words, yes, I am always pinpointed).

So yeah, I can't hide my square, but I can at least prevent you from whackifying me when I move.

[KevLar]

I would argue that an invisible beacon (yes, it's possible) hardly has concealment, total or otherwise (I believe the point of that rule is to clarify that the invisible torch/etc still sheds light - not that it cannot be pinpointed). But since we all know that I can bypass miss chance, I won't dwell on that for the time being. Assume you have concealment.

Round 8

standard action: Divine Shield
Hit points: full (103)
Smite left: 6
Rebuke left: 16
Divine Shield rounds left: 7
Deadly Touch hit points left: 67
Law Devotion rounds left: 5
AC: 48 + 2 stance + 1 dodge +13 divine shield +7 Law Devotion = 71

Flying South, I cover 40 of the 125 ft. Your turn.

[Talic]

Just because you can see the light, doesn't mean you can see the exact source. As parts move around, the light shifts, concealing exact location. Yes, you can avoid miss chance when you attack. That doesn't mean it's not there, though, nor does it stop you from being able to make the attack in the first place.

[Talic]

My action: Move 50 east, 10 up.

Ready an action: Move if my opponent approaches within 10 feet.

Done.

[KevLar]

Round 9

Double move: I sink to the ground (25 ft) and move towards you for 60 ft. Half emerging, hiding, looking.
Hide: [roll0] (-20 penalty)

Hit points: full (103)
Smite left: 6
Rebuke left: 16
Divine Shield rounds left: 3
Deadly Touch hit points left: 67
Law Devotion rounds left: 4
AC: 48 + 2 stance + 1 dodge +13 divine shield +7 Law Devotion = 71

[KevLar]

Wait, I forgot to check the arena (LOL).
Where are you and where was I ? Do I end up under a pillar somewhere? Checking...

[KevLar]

Talic, help. :)

When you moved 20 ft away with your readied action, you didn't specify to which direction. (Or you did, and I missed it.)

Where are we?

[Talic]

LOL, I'll calculate it in a few. I may be offline for a few.

[Talic]

I can't figure it out, but you've probably got this one down. I'll concede. I've got a 1 int right now, lol. Knew I needed Soulfire on the armor. Next time, I'm going for sundering the shield instead. Sigh.

I've been tinkering with ghost rebuilds. I want something that can take living targets, and ghosts.

Here's my next incarnation (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=5452).

Interested in a go?

[KevLar]

Yes, of course. :)
But tomorrow or later - real life gets in the way.

[Talic]

A towering figure in a dark robe enters the room where you have been milling around sizing up the competition. His face is completely obscured by his hood. He raises both hands to get your attention and speaks in a deep voice.

Moby, Stella. You have been chosen to fight. Prepare yourselves!

With that he brings his hands down and the two of you find yourself transported to the arena (http://excessivefreetime.org/arena/arena3.html)

OOC:
You've got time for one swift action and one standard action before you get transported in case you need to adopt a stance or activate an item.

On the map, green is open terrain, yellow is difficult terrain, red/brown is the cliffs (10ft, Climb DC20, blocks LoS). Arena has a 60 foot ceiling.

Opening post should have an initiative roll, anything you said after he called your name and what, if anything you did with the 'surprise round' before being transported. After that, start fighting in initiative order.


Positions
Talic's Character (Casper):
Horizontal Axis: [roll0]
Vertical Axis: [roll1]

KevLar's Character (Stella):
Horizontal Axis: [roll2]
Vertical Axis: [roll3]

Please post a link to your character in your next post.

[Talic]

Casper (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=5452)

Incidentally, I'm working on a character with +2 LA, 15 PrC levels, and 13 Standard Class levels... Gotta get it optimized though.

[KevLar]

Stella (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=19531).


Swift Action: Activate Marshal's Aura - Motivate Dexterity
Standard Action: Divine Shield - 7 rounds left
Rebuke Undead: 17 left

2 Crusader granted maneuvers:
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]

Initiative: [roll4]

[Talic]

Initiative: [roll0]

Also, can I get what type of bonus your Misc bonus to AC is?

EDIT: I'm at O18, in cover.
You're at C11.

My pre actions:Free: Allocate Defender Enhancement to AC (4 pts)
Swift: Assume Stance of Clarity
Standard: Ready action: Activate Divine Shield as soon as we appear in arena

One of my pre actions is a readied action.

I am using that readied action to activate divine shield, immediately upon entering the arena. As I have not moved, I am adding a 5 foot step to this readied action, and am stepping downward and away, to P18, in the floor.

My initiative changes to 37, and it's your turn.

[KevLar]

Talic, quick question: if you have 2 levels of paladin, where do you get turn undead from? It's needed for divine shield.

[KevLar]

Misc bonus to AC is wisdom from Swordsage (applies to flat-footed, if that's your question.)

[Talic]

You're correct. Fixed. Removed Warblade, 1 level of Lurk.

As for lurk augments, as a swift action, I can apply up to 2 augments to my next attack (within 1 round). If the augment lists a PP expense to increase the power of the augment, I can expend up to my lurk level between the two augments. So, as a lurk 14, I could spend 8 points powering the first, and 6 on the second... or 14 on the first, and 0 on the second, or any other combination. So, for example. If I was going against a big beefy without uncanny dodge, I could take
Additional Sneak Attack, and invest 14 points in it, for +8d6 sneak attack, and
Solid strike (investing 0 pp) for +2 damage.

This would make my longsword deal:
1d6 (base) +1 (Str) +4(enhancement) +2(solid Strike) +11d6 (sneak attack)

[KevLar]

Brainfart!

Talic, I'm sorry, I kept refreshing the page without realizing your post had reached page 3... And I missed it completely. We'll continue tomorrow, eh?

So sorry... :smalleek:

[Talic]

No prob. LOL, I've done it myself. Whenever you can go, I'll be waiting.

[Talic]

Lemme know when you're ready.

[KevLar]

Ready!
Stand by, please...

(Lurk question: can you use your Lurk Augment every single round, and the only limitation is your total number of PP to further boost each augment? Awesome class... )

Oh, and may I request a little ret-con? I completely forgot you are invisible. May I change my first (surprise round) standard action from Divine Shield to activating the Scout's Headband?

And a clarification: when you say "in the floor", do you mean inside (=total concealment and no LoS for either of us)? Or ground level, half-in, half-out, where you can hide but we can see each other?

[KevLar]

Round 1

Maneuvers readied: IRON HEART SURGE, INSIGHTFUL STRIKE, RABID WOLF STRIKE , MIND OVER BODY , RUBY NIGHTMARE BLADE, ACTION BEFORE THOUGHT , BOUNDING ASSAULT
Maneuvers granted: DIVINE SURGE, BONECRUSHER
and 1 more:
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]

standard action: Divine Shield (if retcon was allowed, Scout's headband otherwise)
swift action: activate Stance of Clarity
move action: see below

AC: 48-13 (deflection) +2 (natural) + 13 (divine shield) +2 (stance) +1 (dodge)= 53

HP: 103
Divine Shield Rounds left: 7
Rebuke Undead left: 17

If retcon was allowed, I saw you teleporting in O-18. (Well, you did say you had cover, but from what I can see in the map, there's LoS between O-18 and C-11... Isn't there?) So I move, hiding, diagonally to I-17 and look out for you.

Otherwise, I have no freaking idea where you are, so I move to the top of the pillar in F-11, 10 ft above ground, hiding and looking around.

Either way, I'm not completely inside solid objects, so you can see me with a spot check and I can see outside.

Hide: [roll3]
Move Silently: [roll4]
(-5 penalty included)

End of Round 1

[KevLar]

1 more maneuver granted, I said. (This is extremely unpractical. From now on, I'll pick the first that applies instead of rolling again and again...)
[roll0]

Oh, and my free reconnoiter spot/listen (spot may be irrelevant if you're inside).

spot: [roll1]
listen: [roll2] (without penalties due to distance)

[Talic]

Ready!
Stand by, please...

(Lurk question: can you use your Lurk Augment every single round, and the only limitation is your total number of PP to further boost each augment? Awesome class... )

And a clarification: when you say "in the floor", do you mean inside (=total concealment and no LoS for either of us)? Or ground level, half-in, half-out, where you can hide but we can see each other?

There is a limit to the total augments a lurk can do in a day. Lurk class level + Int mod. Since my class level is 14, and my int mod is 9, I can do a total of 23 augments each day. Each augment is seperate. If I use additional sneak attack and solid strike on a single attack, it counts as 2 augments.

When I say "in the floor", I mean all the way. total concealment, no LOS.

Retcon is allowed.

[KevLar]

Thank you. :)
Your move.

[Talic]

Reactive Listen for your last movement: [roll0]

Move 45 feet northish to F 17, and 15 feet up. I have no concealment from ground.
Hiding: [roll1] + 20 from invisible (not applicable, I know)
Move Silent: [roll2]

Reactive Spot: [roll3] (LOS was established between us, so this is free)

Ready an action(no peeking):Move if my opponent gets to 10 feet, and then does anything else. This includes movement, and with the wording will trigger before my opponent gets within 5 feet. As my movement has put me in a location where there is 15 feet of air around me in all directions, there should be no cover to hide behind, and no way to hide on approach.

Reactive spot and listen for any actions you do next round:
Spot:[roll4]
Listen: [roll5]

Done.

Note: I have no cover, and cannot actually hide from you. My character is currently relying on invisibility to hide. So this means that, if you have LOS, you automatically see me.

[Talic]

That spot check was enough to see you, though you wouldn't know that.

[KevLar]

"I can hear you, little one! You can't hide from me!"

That was an untrained Bluff check. :smalltongue:
[roll0]

Rolling for 1 Crusader maneuver: [roll1]

free action: divine might
swift action: Law Devotion to attack. (This gives a +7 bonus to attack OR AC, which can be reallocated at each round. I'll keep it to attack until further notice).
Full Round Action: Bounding Assault. The attack at the end of the double move is considered a charge, therefore I use Charging Smite, with Power attack 1 and the Demolishing Smite tactical option (from the Awesome Smite feat) which ignores DR up to 26 - except DR/- and DR/epic.

Attack: +14 BAB + 13 Cha (from Slippers) +6 Weapon (4+2 for being in a Diamond Mind stance) +1 Weapon Focus +2 Bounding Assault + 15 Smite + 7 Law Devotion -1 PA = +57
Damage: 1d8+3 Weapon + 13 Cha + 39 Smite + 13 divine might + 1 PA + 13 gauntlets = 1d8+69 slashing + 13 fire damage

AC: 53 (as before)
HP: 103
Divine Shield Rounds left: 6
Rebuke Undead left: 16
Law Devotion rounds left: 10
Smite left: 7

You see Stella flying quickly but playfully towards you (accelerated tumble: [roll2]), wielding her sword.

Attack: [roll3]
Damage: [roll4] slashing damage + 13 fire damage
This attack ignores any DR up to 26, except DR/- and DR/epic.

Now, if your readied action was to somehow flee from Stella's horrible attack (LOL), please do that and then open this spoiler.
I'm using the Bounding Assault maneuver (double move, attack with a +2 bonus, and the attack is considered a charge). If I'm getting this right, it means that even if you move away from me at some point, I'll still have a move action to come near you. I have a total of 80 ft movement, which I can divide to 2 move actions anyway I like (up to 40 ft each of course), I can change direction if I need to, and I can tumble.

If so, I'll be able to reach and attack you unless you move too far away from me. I can't give you a precise distance because I don't know when exactly your readied action will be triggered.

Am I correct? (It is a bit complicated...)

And if your readied action was to somehow relieve me from my sword, please do that and then open this spoiler.
If Stella loses her sword on the way, she'll ignore it and do the exact same thing with a slam attack instead. Remove 6 from the attack roll and damage becomes [roll5] bludgeoning damage (plus 13 fire).

Question: I thought that 2 ghosts fighting are considered corporeal to each other. So... what's with the Crystal of Screening???

EDIT - You know, I've looking at our character sheets, and I believe that the outcome of this match will be defined by how much the (virtual) d20 likes us...

End of Round 2

[Talic]

At the point you reach 10 feet away from me, I need to know your exact location. That's what triggered the readied action. My readied action was to move, but I need to know your location, and whether you traced a direct line path on your movement, or if your playful path was more meandering.

My current location is F17 (elevation 15)
Your location at start of turn was F11 (elevation 10).

A direct line path would put it at F15 (elevation 15). with 20 feet of movement expended. Is that the case?

[KevLar]

I wasn't in F-11, I was in I-17, ground level. (See above, this was the retcon version.) Sorry if I confused you. Would you like to change your current position, and we'll do another retcon?

[KevLar]

If I can still reach you with a move action, I'll do the same thing and yes, I'll move in a straight line towards you - tumbling, but straight.

[Talic]

No, my location was carefully chosen. Plot the location, and tell me when you reach 10 feet distant from me. I believe that will be either H-17 (10 foot elevation) or G-17 (5 foot elevation). Either way, you'll be in a square with no cover, no concealment, and no ability to hide. There's 15 feet of air in all directions around me, and it's there for a reason. To deny you a sneaky move to beside me. Though even if you did try, as I see you, there wouldn't be much shot of that.

[KevLar]

OK. Let's say H-17, then.

[Talic]

Rolling a sense motive on that bluff.

More to follow...

EDIT: Here's the more.

My guy's gut says no. But with Deific intelligence, and mediocre gut instincts (wisdom), he's learned to trust his intellect far more than his gut.

And up until now, he has factored in many things. Whether or not you're faster. Whether or not you can see invis...

But not whether or not you could hear him. If he even thought it a possibility, he'd have moved to a central location. Now, he can't move directly away from you and hope to outrun, because the arena ends too soon. While he doesn't believe it, he's got to consider the possibility. However, if that's the case, then there's nothing he can do now.

Ergo, he must act as if you can't pinpoint him by hearing, because... if you can, no matter what he does, he can't evade. In that case, where he goes doesn't matter. So, he'll assume that he can evade, and go from there. If it turns out that you can pinpoint him, he'll at least know it for sure.

So the move: Starting in F17, Move to E17, 10 foot elevation, then down to E17, in the floor (20 feet used so far). From there, I have total concealment to you, so hide is irrelevant. I'll post the move silent roll at the end of the remaining movement. Continuing movement - due east to E25.

Move silent: [roll]1d20+24

Continue.

[KevLar]

I can't fail to notice that the virtual d20 has shown a clear preference.:smalltongue:

[Talic]

Move silent redux [roll0]

[KevLar]

Listen: [roll0] (without the penalty)

Eh, Talic... was that your readied action? I believe you can't ready an action abstractly and then decide what to do exactly... Right?? (I liked your reasoning very much, nice verisimilitude and all, but if you readied an action "move to point X", I don't think you can then move to point Z instead because you thought of something...

[Talic]

You state an action you will perform, and a condition that will trigger it.

Action: Move.

Condition: You approach within 10 feet, and perform any other action.

Readied actions do not state that you must define all variables to that action, though my original intent (before you bluffed) was to dive into the floor and change direction, continuing out to my full movement silently.

The whole point of me going so out in the open is to:
1) Draw you out of hiding, and negate any stealth advantage you may have.
2) Determine whether or not you can detect invisible.

The contingency, if you can, is to hide from your sight, and get to a spot where you don't know where I am. The intent was to move in such a manner as to not move through threatened squares.

Now, I'm not sure exactly how precisely the terms of the action are going to be ruled, but if you'd like it exactly laid out, I'll be more than happy to go uber specific in the future, I can do that.

[KevLar]

Now, I'm not sure exactly how precisely the terms of the action are going to be ruled, but if you'd like it exactly laid out, I'll be more than happy to go uber specific in the future, I can do that.
Yes, I would. Sorry to be anal about this, but I just can't accept a readied action as general as "move".

However, I'll gladly accept something like "move 60 ft in a straight line, at the opposite direction of my opponent's current course", for example. Or even "move to the nearest hiding place, avoiding threatened squares". You don't have to predefine the course, but you should somehow describe the movement beforehand. Agreed? :)

Round 1
As Casper flees before she can get to him, Stella turns and follows him to E-17, ground level, where he disappears and there's nothing she can do. (That was my second move action, see spoiler above for details, tell me if I interpreted something wrong. The maneuver is expended and lost.)

Round 2

You coward! You can't run forever!

Stella looks around (free spot/listen checks which are irrelevant, but she doesn't know that), finds nothing and falls silent. She flies straight up, 65 ft to the ceiling (inside), and moves 10 ft south (inside) to G-17, altitude 60. From there, she half-emerges, hiding and looking out.

Hide: [roll0]
Move Silently: [roll1] (-5 penalty included)

free action: reallocate Law Devotion bonus to AC
and a double move action

AC: 53 + 7 = 60
HP: 103
Divine Shield Rounds left: 5
Rebuke Undead left: 16
Law Devotion rounds left: 9
Smite left: 8 (it was not expanded)

[Talic]

Very well. Partially defined actions. The exact movement paths don't need plotting, nor does the end point need announcing, but at a minimum, the goal/intent/basic high points of the move need to be plotted out. (i.e. Move away... Dodge the attack... avoid moving through any threatened squares). Movement can be described relative to visible conditions of the arena or the players (i.e. away from Stella, into the floor), but just announcing "move" isn't specific enough. Will do in the future.

Now, my round 2.

My actions: Move to L26, and elevate 15 feet.
Standard: Ready an action: IF my opponent becomes visible, THEN use Telekinesis ability-I will be using it as a disarm action, on either the sword or shield, whichever is NOT held by the locked gauntlet.

[KevLar]

OK. :)

You are in plain sight, so I don't need to roll anything to see you, right?
full round action: Adaptive Style. Warblade the same, Swordsage:
MIND OVER BODY, ACTION BEFORE THOUGHT, SHADOW JAUNT, BOUNDING ASSAULT.
and 2 Crusader maneuvers granted:
[roll0]
[roll1]

AC: 60
HP: 103
Divine Shield Rounds left: 4
Rebuke Undead left: 16
Law Devotion rounds left: 8
Smite left: 8

Still there, still hiding. You're up.

End of Round 3

[Talic]

Completely visible.

Round 4.

Move action: spot: [roll0]

Maintain ready action.

Your go.

[KevLar]

Still half in/half out of the ceiling, I double move to L-26, altitude 60. (Death From Above, LOL)

Hide: [roll0]
Move Silently: [roll1] (-5 penalty included)

1 granted Crusader maneuver: [roll2]

AC: 60
HP: 103
Divine Shield Rounds left: 3
Rebuke Undead left: 16
Law Devotion rounds left: 7
Smite left: 8

[Talic]

My spot modifier can't see you, but on a nat 20, my listen can.

Reactive listen for last round's movement: [roll0]

If I hear, I'll move 60 feet north. If I don't, I'll

Move action: Spot <can't spot>

Standard: Maintain ready action.

[KevLar]

DEATH FROM ABOVE!!!

Stella is not very subtle. She dives down, sword in the air.

Rolling for 1 Crusader maneuver: [roll0]

free action: divine might
free action: reallocate Law Devotion to attack
Full Round Action: Charge with the Law Bearer maneuver (+8 bonus attack, + 4d6 damage. +5 bonus on saves, AC until the beginning of my next turn if it hits). I use Charging Smite, with Power attack 2 and the Demolishing Smite tactical option (from the Awesome Smite feat) which ignores DR up to 26 - except DR/- and DR/epic.

Attack: +14 BAB + 13 Cha (from Slippers) +6 Weapon (4+2 for being in a Diamond Mind stance) +1 Weapon Focus +2 Charge + 15 Smite + 7 Law Devotion -2 PA +8 Law Bearer = +64
Damage: 1d8+3 Weapon + 13 Cha + 39 Smite + 13 divine might + 2 PA + 4d6 Law Bearer + 13 gauntlets = 1d8+70 + 4d6 slashing + 13 fire damage

AC: 53
HP: 103
Divine Shield Rounds left: 2
Rebuke Undead left: 15
Law Devotion rounds left: 6
Smite left: 7

Attack: [roll1]
Damage: [roll2] + [roll3] slashing damage + 13 fire damage
This attack ignores any DR up to 26, except DR/- and DR/epic.

Again if your readied action was to somehow flee from Stella's horrible attack (LOL), please do that and then open this spoiler.
Actually, there's nothing I can do this time, I'm charging (LOL). Another Rebuke burned, congratulations.

And again, if your readied action was to somehow relieve me from my sword, please do that and then open this spoiler.
If Stella loses her sword on the way, she'll ignore it and do the exact same thing with a slam attack instead. Remove 6 from the attack roll and damage becomes: [roll4] (plus the 4d6 above) bludgeoning damage, plus 13 fire.

[Talic]

My action was indeed, one that may relieve you of something.

1st: you have 1 locked gauntlet. What's it holding?

[KevLar]

Umm.. the sword. What else could it be holding?

[Talic]

The shield. My readied action was to use telekinesis, targeting whichever of the two was NOT held by a locked gauntlet, and disarm it.

You won't suffer a -4 penalty, as a shield is considered a melee weapon.

Opposed attack roll: [roll0]

If successful, telekinesis has your shield, at the point you first came fully into view. From there, you may continue your charging bash of doom.

[KevLar]

Oh sh...

You know, it never occurred to me that I could lock the shield too... :smalleek:
This is bad. Very bad. Say, would the loss of my shield make, by any chance, Divine Shield irrelevant?

Opposed Disarm check: [roll0]
(Is a heavy steel shield considered a light weapon? If so, subtract 4 from the above roll. Not that it matters.)

[Talic]

Divine Shield's text states that it grants your shield the bonus. Losing that would, in fact, knock your charisma bonus off your AC.

And no, it's not a light weapon. You can power attack with it.

[KevLar]

Did the attack hit? Do you have any tricks up your sleeve? DR, resistances, something that can block Power attack? (2 of that damage was PA, btw)

I ask because, here's a funny thing: I count 102 damage and I forgot to roll my truedeath 1d6 Vs Undead.

Here it is: [roll0]

So what's the status?
(crosses fingers)

[Talic]

That'll get me, though if you'd be so kind as to explain the +70, I'd appreciate it.

[KevLar]

If you open the spoiler of the post in the previous page, you'll see it contains the breakdown for attack and damage:

Damage: 1d8+3 Weapon + 13 Cha (from Slippers of Battledancing, instead of Strength because I've moved 10 ft) + 39 Charging Smite + 13 divine might + 2 PA + 4d6 Law Bearer + 13 gauntlets = 1d8+70 + 4d6 slashing + 13 fire damage

[KevLar]

If you open the spoiler of the post in the previous page, you'll see it contains the breakdown for attack and damage:

Damage: 1d8+3 Weapon + 13 Cha (from Slippers of Battledancing, instead of Strength because I've moved 10 ft) + 39 Charging Smite + 13 divine might + 2 PA + 4d6 Law Bearer + 13 gauntlets = 1d8+70 + 4d6 slashing + 13 fire damage

Charging Smite breakdown: Mighty Smiting weapon property gives +2 to attack and damage when you smite. 11 paladin levels + 2 = 13 damage, and Charging Smite multiplies that by 3.

[Talic]

I'm referring to sources for the above.

Though a weapon that adds +2 to damage when you smite does not add +2 to your smite damage. It would not multiply.

[KevLar]

Beginning at 5th level, if you smite evil on a charge attack, you deal an extra 2 points of damage per paladin level to any evil creature you hit (in addition to the normal bonus damage dealt by a smite). If the charge attack misses, the smite ability is not considered used. This is a supernatural ability.


If you have a smite ability (smite, smite evil, smite shadowlands, or the like), you gain an extra +2 bonus on your smite attack rolls and damage rolls.

... I believe you are correct. So, my Charging Smite damage should be 11x3 +2 = 35. Right?
That means you are alive, I mean undead, and about to whack me to oblivion. Right?

(And now I really wish I had listened to your advice and taken the greater Truedeath crystal, heh.)

[KevLar]

Ughh... sorry about the double posts, the forums are really frustrating at this point. It takes me a lot of time to refresh and open pages.

Is there any other source you'd like clarifications about?
Gauntlets are Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows, and add (Cha bonus) fire damage to every melee attack.

[Talic]

Build's not focused on Crits, remember? :)

Even so, here we go:

Can't heal (enough), and so it comes down to damage. I doubt this will get you, BUT:

Telekinesis (continued): Grapple attempt on you. This is a melee touch attack.

Lurk Augment: Deceptive Strike (this renders you without your dexterity modifier. It works against uncanny dodge, provided you have less than 11 levels in classes that grant uncanny dodge)

Touch attack vs Flat-footed AC: [roll0]
If hit, opposed grapple: [roll1]
If won: [roll2] - your DR of 5 = 0 damage.

[KevLar]

Touch attack hits, of course.
Opposed grapple check: not rolling, I automatically fail.

A question though. If you use the Combat Maneuver version of Telekinesis, shouldn't you maintain Concentration in order to keep using it? So shouldn't you roll a check Vs damage dealt, since you were already using Telekinesis when you got hit?

[Talic]

I looked at that in the SRD, for just this question. Here is what I found (relevant section bolded):

Supernatural Abilities (Su)

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is:

10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).

[KevLar]

Oh, right. OK then.

For my next round, I'll tell you what I do without spoilers, because I'm not sure how this works.

I want to use the Shadow Jaunt maneuver as a standard action. I have no idea if it provokes (doesn't say anything about that in the text, and oddly enough it's not described as a supernatural ability).

Also, technically, using maneuvers is not among the actions you are allowed to do while grappling. But can you think of any reason why it shouldn't? (Other than ToB being published long after the SRD?)

Thoughts?

[KevLar]

From ToB:


To initiate a maneuver or a stance, you must be able to move. You do not need to be able to speak. You initiate a maneuver by taking the specified initiation action. A maneuver might require an immediate, swift, move, standard, or full-round action to initiate. The process of initiating a maneuver is similar to that of casting a spell or manifesting a psionic power, although there are some key differences (see below).
Grappling doesn't mean you can't move at all, so OK from here.


Enemy interference might make certain maneuvers impossible to complete. For example, if an enemy who readied an action to trip you when you started your turn knocks you prone, you would not be able to use a maneuver that required you to charge. Similarly, if you begin your turn grappled or pinned, you might find that most of the maneuvers available to you simply won’t be of any use until you get free.
Key word: most. I believe that teleportation has no reason to be prevented from being grappled.


You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you initiate a maneuver or stance unless its description explicitly says otherwise.
Oh, right. You provoke (unless otherwise noted) only as part of another move or action that the maneuver includes and provokes. I don't think Teleportation applies.

So again. Thoughs? :)

[Talic]

I don't see a problem with it. Go ahead and shadow jaunt.

Martial maneuvers are Extraordinary abilities unless it states otherwise. Such abilities generally do not provoke.

[KevLar]

OK. :)

Stella swears like a sailor and poof! disappears.

Standard action (you guessed it), Shadow Jaunt. I reappear to E-20 ground level (LoS and LoE established, so that Shadow Jaunt applies), and promptly dive inside the ground. Move action to E-21, altitude 10 ft, inside the pillar all the time. No need to hide, but here's my Move Silently: [roll0].

Is the shield floating just below the ceiling?

free action: reallocate Law Devotion to AC.
AC: 10 + 10 Armor + 4 Dex + 2 natural + 5 Swordsage +7 Law Devotion = 38
Touch AC: 26
Flat-footed AC: 34

HP: 103
Divine Shield Rounds left: 1 (no shield, though...)
Rebuke Undead left: 15
Law Devotion rounds left: 5
Smite left: 7

1 granted Crusader maneuver (last one)

[Talic]

You're still grappled after you Jaunt. The only reason grapples usually end upon a dimension door is that you are no longer in the same square as your enemy. However.... Telekinesis isn't in a square. It has a target. You. As long as I am targeting you from a grapple, and as long as you remain a legal target, telekinesis is on you. Down side? It can't damage you, I have to use standard actions to maintain it, so I can't damage you, and it lasts no more than 13 more rounds. I can get 1 round of attacks on you with belt of battle, but I can't augment them (Belt uses the swift action that augments need), so there's no way that attack will drop you.

[KevLar]

LOL.

Well, I don't see from where exactly it is derived that the target of Combat Maneuver (or Telekinesis in general) is poor Me, but I'll roll with it.

Suggestion: Since the forums are so frustrating, would you like to speed this up a bit? For as long as you maintain the grapple, I'll attempt to Escape. I have a +15 to Escape Artist, and you have a +29 to Grapple, right? You can use the Belt of Battle if you wish. If you are OK with that, here we go:

Rounds 7 to ??

Escape Artist attempts:
1 [roll0]
2 [roll1]
3 [roll2]
4 [roll3]
5 [roll4]
6 [roll5]
7 [roll6]
8 [roll7]
9 [roll8]
10 [roll9]
11 [roll10]
12 [roll11]
13 [roll12]

(If you're not OK with that, it's your turn again.)

I'll calculate maneuvers etc once we know what round we're in. If Law Devotion ends, I'll burn 3 Rebuke attempts to activate it again as a swift action. In the spoiler above, I forgot to include to AC a +2 insight from stance and a +1 dodge (from Dodge). So:
AC: 10 + 10 Armor + 4 Dex + 2 natural + 5 Swordsage +7 Law Devotion +2 stance +1 dodge = 41
Touch AC: 29
Flat-footed AC: 36

HP: 103
Rebuke Undead left: 15 (or 12, if Law Devotion ended)
Law Devotion rounds left: ?? (will calculate later)
Smite left: 7

[Talic]

I auto-win all rounds that I intend to use. Effect will end before round 10, and I auto-win all rolls prior.

On round 1: Move action: Move 60 feet towards your shield.
On round 2: Move action: Sheath my longsword.
On round 3: Move action: Pick up your shield.
On round 4 and 5: Move to A 40.
Round 6: Voluntarily end the effect by ceasing concentration.
Move: Up into the ceiling. Move will continue, east of A 40. ends where A 51 would be.
Move 2: to -I 51- (elevation 45)

I will spend the next 10 minutes in the wall, staying absolutely still, taking no actions, and thus, making no sound. I have total concealment, I'm completely unable to be detected by hearing, and I'm just waiting for your effect that lets you see me to wear out.

Assuming you don't find me, in 10 minutes, I'll post my next action.

[KevLar]

You moved out of the arena or am I looking at the wrong map all this time?
I mean, I know no one has thought to disallow moving out of the arena, but I thought it was a given. :smalltongue:

Also. As soon as she is free from the force effect, Stella dives to the ground and stays inside the ground. She doesn't want to get caught in that thing EVER again. One round, still inside the ground, will be spent for Adaptive Style. Another round will be spent to move, still inside the ground, to a random direction.

After that, here is the pattern:
Move action inside the ground (or wall, or ceiling) 30 ft, 5 ft up to emerge (with concealment) and look out as a free action with Quick Recnonnoiter, and standard action to ready an action. Next round? Dive in (5 ft), move (30 ft), emerge (5ft), repeat.

Direction: Towards the center of the arena (ground). Towards a wall, say north. Up the wall. Up the ceiling. Towards the center of the arena (ceiling). Stay there. Pop back and forth (emerge, look, get back inside). Keep readied action indefinitely.

Let's see who will come out first. :smallamused:

*wonders idly about a possible time limit to each match (I mean, without one, I might as well declare than I'm waiting until tomorrow to activate the Scout's Headband again. That's awful.) and what on earth Casper would do Vs an opponent with constant See Invisibility*

rebuke is down to 15. (Stella renews Law Devotion once, while she's still grappling, but once she's in the ground she doesn't bother again.)
Condition for Readied action: any telekinesis effect.
Readied action: move action, 5ft back inside the ground (wall, ceiling) and 30 ft to a random direction, always inside the ground.

The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

[Talic]

For telekinesis, the target is "See text". For the combat maneuver area:


Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip).

For the other? Anytime we've entered the floor or the ceiling completely, we've left the arena, by that standard. I just carried it farther.

Against a creature with constant see invis? It likely won't be incorporeal. I'll have ethereal shifting, and such. I admit, my damage isn't what I'd like. I may change it some more.

The alternate would have been to treat it as a thrown ranged weapon, if we can't go out of the arena, and throw it 50 feet away. (range increment 10, 5 increments. That would put it untouchable, outside the arena. Either way, I intend to put your shield where it won't be gotten. Only chance I've got is to lower your AC, AND be invisible. I'm at freakin' 1 HP. That's like, feathers kill me territory.

[KevLar]

For the other? Anytime we've entered the floor or the ceiling completely, we've left the arena, by that standard. I just carried it farther.
Oh come on.:smalltongue:

An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own.
(Five ft inside the ground/floor/ceiling? Peachy! Ten ft inside? No way.)


Either way, I intend to put your shield where it won't be gotten. Only chance I've got is to lower your AC, AND be invisible. I'm at freakin' 1 HP. That's like, feathers kill me territory.
1) I've already given up on the shield and my AC is indeed low.
2) You can use Deadly Touch on yourself. You won't be full again, and you're still (possibly) one successful attack away from dropping, but that's undeath for ya. Few hp. I sympathize.
3) If you don't intend to come out at all, there's obviously nothing we can do to end this. At least I pop out and look from time to time. :smallsmile: So we can declare this a (very unfair) draw. Or we can (indeed) impose a time limit, and make up a rule about it. I dunno.

[KevLar]

Talic, forgive me, but this is how I see it.

There's tactical fighting.
That's awesome. You do that better than anyone I've played with so far. It's challenging and interesting. It can be frustrating too, but in an absolutely good way.

Then there's cautious fighting.
That's wise. You are doing it, and I am (occasionally) doing it, and everyone should do it.

And then there's no fighting at all.
That's what you're doing. Delaying and evading your opponent, so that you can attack from a position of advantage, is one thing. Taking no risk at all is quite another. If you simply refuse to attack because it could kill you, it's not a fight any more. It's conceding.

Now, I realize I'm partly to blame for that. I'm the one who (foolishly) said "let's see who comes out first". I apologize. And I'll gladly take it back. But only if you intend to actually try to fight me. So what do you say? :smallsmile:

[Talic]

1) You stated ruled for incorporeal. We're not. We're Ethereal. That makes a world of difference as to what's allowed. However, I'll rewind to that Round 6, if you like, and modify the turn so that I don't go 60 feet into the wall.

And yes, actually, I'm delaying to attack from a position of advantage. If you can't see me, the hit and run of the build really takes off. It's a rather long delay, but I'm confident I can do it with partial cover.

That said, I did go toe-to-toe with you once. Got knocked to 1 hp. So now, if I am to have any shot at winning, I need to be able to have a chance to hit you repeatedly without counter hits. That's not an easy thing to do.

Here's my proposed idea. Neither of us will spend more than 1 full round in total cover at any one time.

That's enough to reposition, to ready something in hiding, and come back out.

However, we must pick a square and be in it. Being halfway between an "in the ground" square and a "not in the ground" square, so as to have partial concealment? not RAW. RAW, the only way you can occupy more than one square is to be a large creature. So we're either at 0 elevation, and visible, or at -5 and in the ground. There's no halfways on that one. Difficult terrain can offer concealment enough to hide, while still being visible, and that's fine. But every square on the board is a bit excessive.

Sound good?

[KevLar]

1) You stated ruled for incorporeal. We're not. We're Ethereal. That makes a world of difference as to what's allowed. However, I'll rewind to that Round 6, if you like, and modify the turn so that I don't go 60 feet into the wall.
By RAW, you have a point. However, my main problem wasn't the illegality of the move, it was... the un-sportsmanship. If we fight in an arena, we fight in an arena. I have assumed that the ground and ceiling is part of the arena, which is way I've been spending some time in there. I wouldn't move outside the map. (Actually, I did that when I said I go in the wall. My bad.) You want to disallow that (ground, walls, ceilings), and make it so we can only enter the pillars? Absolutely fine with me. Tactical warfare, yay!


And yes, actually, I'm delaying to attack from a position of advantage. If you can't see me, the hit and run of the build really takes off. It's a rather long delay, but I'm confident I can do it with partial cover.
Now that you bring that up, between you and me... if I was making the rules, a delay of 100 rounds would be unacceptable. Heck, even 20 rounds would be unacceptable. (Oh, high big barbarian, I'll just disappear until your rage ends! Sucks to be you.) Poor sportsmanship. Bad spectacle for the crowds. Bad idea. But I've accepted it, and we're moving on.


Here's my proposed idea. Neither of us will spend more than 1 full round in total cover at any one time.

That's enough to reposition, to ready something in hiding, and come back out.

No problem.


However, we must pick a square and be in it. Being halfway between an "in the ground" square and a "not in the ground" square, so as to have partial concealment? not RAW. RAW, the only way you can occupy more than one square is to be a large creature. So we're either at 0 elevation, and visible, or at -5 and in the ground. There's no halfways on that one. Difficult terrain can offer concealment enough to hide, while still being visible, and that's fine. But every square on the board is a bit excessive.
Ah, I see your point and I've been wording this wrong all this time (because it conjured a better visual, heh). Of course it's illegal to be half-way through squares. But here's what I meant:


An incorporeal creature can also occupy the same space as a solid object without being inside that object, and it typically gains cover from doing so. Compare the size of the incorporeal creature to the size of the corporeal object. Consult the Sharing Spaces table to determine the extent of cover enjoyed by the incorporeal creature.
The Table (which will take me a lot of time to copy properly here, check your pm box in a while) says that the incorporeal creature gains Cover if the corporeal object is same size or one category larger, and Total Cover if the corporeal object is two or more categories larger.

There's also this part:

In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks.

(Oh, and I know we are ethereal and not incorporeal to each other, but we are certainly not corporeal in relation to objects of the material plane.)

... Aaaaand this is what I've been doing. I believe it's legal. Arguments for or against?

[Talic]

By RAW, you have a point. However, my main problem wasn't the illegality of the move, it was... the un-sportsmanship. If we fight in an arena, we fight in an arena. I have assumed that the ground and ceiling is part of the arena, which is way I've been spending some time in there. I wouldn't move outside the map. (Actually, I did that when I said I go in the wall. My bad.) You want to disallow that (ground, walls, ceilings), and make it so we can only enter the pillars? Absolutely fine with me. Tactical warfare, yay!I think that 5 feet into the walls and such is fine.


Now that you bring that up, between you and me... if I was making the rules, a delay of 100 rounds would be unacceptable. Heck, even 20 rounds would be unacceptable. (Oh, high big barbarian, I'll just disappear until your rage ends! Sucks to be you.) Poor sportsmanship. Bad spectacle for the crowds. Bad idea. But I've accepted it, and we're moving on.Depends on how it's done. The plucky guy dancing away from the raging meatstick for that length of time might get boring, but engaged, it's hard to argue. By the same token, if we're talking about crowd spectacles, invisibility and hiding would be hard sells, as would a great many other things (1 hit KO's? you know how many people got mad at the 6 second Tyson fight? all of em). So I can see a tactical argument, but not a "will of the spectator" argument.


Ah, I see your point and I've been wording this wrong all this time (because it conjured a better visual, heh). Of course it's illegal to be half-way through squares. But here's what I meant:

The Table (which it will take me a lot of time to copy properly here, check your pm box in a while) says that the incorporeal creature gains Cover if the corporeal object is same size or one category larger, and Total Cover if the corporeal object is two or more categories larger.

(Oh, and I know we are ethereal and not incorporeal to each other, but we are certainly not corporeal in relation to objects of the material plane.)

... Aaaaand this is what I've been doing. I believe it's legal. Arguments for or against?
However when you're entirely inside of walls (per the other part), you have total cover unless attacking. So the part about gaining cover and object sizes? It's not an object. You're entirely in the floor, so we use the second part. You have total cover. This means:

No need for hide checks. You can't be seen.
AND
It works both ways. You can't see.

Now, when you attack, you have cover, but not total. That means that you can see and be seen. But that only applies when you attack. Not when you're moving.

So, if you want to see, you either need to:
move outside the square (and lose cover from the floor/wall/ceiling)
or
make an attack outside the wall, at which point you still have cover, and can see into the arena. At that point, you could hide to avoid being seen). Once the attack's over, you're back in the wall, and once again have total cover.

If I remember correctly, incorporeal creatures can "sense" when something is outside the wall 5 feet away. I'd have to have a bit of booko time to find that though, and I'm AFB right now.

Now, the object thing? Works well if you're hiding in a statue, or under a table, but has no bearing when your entire square is covered. That's when you're inside a wall/floor, and those rules apply.

EDIT: Basically, 1 square is total cover. 1 square is no cover. The only time you can be between the two (with cover only) is while you attack (per the last SRD exerpt you posted). You've been kinda moving around in a permanent state of half-in.

[KevLar]

If I remember correctly, incorporeal creatures can "sense" when something is outside the wall 5 feet away. I'd have to have a bit of booko time to find that though, and I'm AFB right now.
Yes, it's the same as pinpointing invisible opponents, with a +2 to your Listen check (because sound is carried better in solid objects).
EDIT- Though, logically, that +2 shouldn't apply when we're both ethereal, I think. We're on another plane, we don't interact with material objects at all, all they do is block line of sight.


Now, the object thing? Works well if you're hiding in a statue, or under a table, but has no bearing when your entire square is covered. That's when you're inside a wall/floor, and those rules apply.
Accepted.
Would it be fair to assume that the pillars (in particular) aren't completely square blocks of granite (that would be hard to visualize), and therefore can be used for cover? At least the edges (top squares, and squares that are adjacent to normal terrain).

And come to think of it, I don't know why I thought they were pillars all this time, they are described as rocks. Huh.


Basically, 1 square is total cover. 1 square is no cover. The only time you can be between the two (with cover only) is while you attack (per the last SRD exerpt you posted). You've been kinda moving around in a permanent state of half-in.
Accepted for ground, ceiling and walls. You are right, I shouldn't be able to do that. :smallredface: Sorry....

But I believe this method should work for the rocks. Do you agree?

[Talic]

Would it be fair to assume that the pillars (in particular) aren't completely square blocks of granite (that would be hard to visualize), and therefore can be used for cover? At least the edges (top squares, and squares that are adjacent to normal terrain).

And come to think of it, I don't know why I thought they were pillars all this time, they are described as rocks. Huh.

But I believe this method should work for the rocks. Do you agree?

Should work fine for rocks, as well as difficult terrain. (yes, difficult terrain can be rubble. It can also be shrubberies. I think the latter provides a more interesting arena).

Rocks work 10 feet up, Difficult terrain 5?

[KevLar]

Correction.

An ethereal creature can see and hear into the Material Plane in a 60-foot radius, though material objects still block sight
So the +2 would apply.
(Utterly unimportant, I'm just nitpicking here.)


Should work fine for rocks, as well as difficult terrain. (yes, difficult terrain can be rubble. It can also be shrubberies. I think the latter provides a more interesting arena).

Rocks work 10 feet up, Difficult terrain 5?
Absolutely fine. :smallsmile:

[Talic]

Then my Round 6 is: End the telekinesis.
move into the ceiling. (all further movement irrelevant, A40, in ceiling)
Standard: Throw the shield 50 feet straight up, where it can remain, as far as I'm concerned.
Free: Wish I had my hp back.
Move: Draw my sword

Continue from there.


Oh, I'm working on a different sort of incorporeal. It'll be interesting. I expect High AC shenanigans, and designing something that will have enough time to whittle my opponents away, or kill them with kindness, or something.

[KevLar]

Awesome.
Just give me 10 minutes to make coffee. :smallsmile:

EDIT
One last clarification: What about solid objects bigger than us? (Inside the arena :smalltongue:)
Can we move in a straight line from Q-21 to U-21, passing through 3 squares of rock because we're ethereal?
Or we can't because, in relation to them, we're incorporeal?

(RAW doesn't help at all with that, just pick one option and I'll agree.)

[KevLar]

And here's a last, very very cute, question.
Do you need a free hand to use Telekinesis????

[Talic]

Ethereal does not equal incorporeal.

For example: Shadows, Wraiths, etc are not ethereal. They never manifest. They are permanently incorporeal, only half there. Ghosts are pretty unique in that they can be ethereal or incorporeal. Moving through large rocks is fine when you're ethereal.

As for telekinesis? Supernatural abilities have no Somatic component, so, unless you feel like pantomiming a jedi force choke, you're pretty well good, with or without hands.

Speaking of that: [roll0] delay before I can telekinesis again (last round was round 1).

[Adumbration]

For future referance, I don't think you can disarm a shield:

Grabbing Items

You can use a disarm action to snatch an item worn by the target. If you want to have the item in your hand, the disarm must be made as an unarmed attack.

If the item is poorly secured or otherwise easy to snatch or cut away the attacker gets a +4 bonus. Unlike on a normal disarm attempt, failing the attempt doesn’t allow the defender to attempt to disarm you. This otherwise functions identically to a disarm attempt, as noted above.

You can’t snatch an item that is well secured unless you have pinned the wearer (see Grapple). Even then, the defender gains a +4 bonus on his roll to resist the attempt.

I believe a shield counts as well secured - it is strapped on, after all. You're not just holding it, it is physically attached to your arm with usually leather straps. In the low-level arena, I once tried to disarm someone with a shield due to his high AC, and was met with this very same argument.

[KevLar]

OK. :)

Round 12 (6+6)

Hope I'm getting this right.
When I shadow jaunted, I had 5 rounds of Law Devotion left. Six rounds later, Talic acts first and dismisses Telekinesis. At the beginning of my turn, I am in E-20, ground level, I have no Law Devotion, and I have 15 rebuke left.

Swift action: Law Devotion to AC (until further notice)
Full round Action: Adaptive Style
Warblade: STEELY STRIKE, IRON HEART SURGE, INSIGHTFUL STRIKE
Swordsage: RUBY NIGHTMARE BLADE, SHADOW JAUNT, OBSCURING SHADOW VEIL, BOUNDING ASSAULT
Crusader: ENTANGLING BLADE, DIVINE SURGE, BONECRUSHER , BATTLE LEADER’S CHARGE, LAW BEARER
Granted: [roll0], [roll1]

AC: 10 + 10 Armor + 4 Dex + 2 natural + 5 Swordsage + 2 insight (stance of clarity) +1 Dodge + 7 Law Devotion = 41
Touch AC: 10 + 4 Dex + 5 Swordsage + 2 insight (stance of clarity) +1 Dodge + 7 Law Devotion = 29
Flat Footed AC: 10 + 10 Armor + 2 natural + 5 Swordsage + 2 insight (stance of clarity) + 7 Law Devotion = 36

Rebuke left: 12
Smite left: 7
HP: 103
Law devotion rounds left: 10

OK, I'm in E-20 (cover!), ground level. Can I hide during a 5-ft step? If so, I'm now in F-20, hiding.
Hide: [roll2]
Move silently [roll3]

If not, I'm still in E-20, visible.

Either way, I'm looking, but sadly not finding.

reactive listen to your last movements (2 rounds, I think)
[roll4]
[roll5] (without the penalties)
I saw you lastly on the ceiling above (where the shield was, L-26), and from there you moved inside the ceiling to your current position, correct?

[KevLar]

@Adumbration: You have a very valid point. I'll remember that for my next game. For this one, however, we have taken several not-so-legal actions, so I'm without a shield. :)

[KevLar]

Talic, 3 points

1) Crystal of Screening. I asked, but that was way back. It shouldn't work Vs a fellow ethereal creature like Stella. Correct?

2) I just noticed that you used a Lurk Augment with the Telekinesis. (It would have succeeded anyway, this is for future reference.) Please, don't tell me you can do that.

a lurk can augment her melee attack by selecting an ability from her available lurk augments
The Combat Manuever of Telekinesis is NOT your melee attack. (We had a looong debate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96921)with Heliomance about his telekinetic ghost. His build was accepted by Lyndworm, but frankly, it makes no sense at all. I won't get into it, because it was about Violent Thrust, not Combat Manuever.) This is something similar. Your Telekinesis is a supernatural ability, not your melee attack. You can't augment it. Need I argue about this, or do you agree?

3) I have no problem whatsoever continuing the match from here. However, considering that by RAW I've been moving illegally all this time, and that I should be visible at the crucial "Death from Above" moment, and that my shield should be still strapped around my arm...
If you want to start over, with full HP and our newly-agreed rules concerning the ill-defined ethereal Vs ethereal combat, I also have no problem.
Your call. :smallsmile:

[Talic]

One thing I've learned, Adumbration, is that interjecting too much common sense into D&D invariably ends up messing stuff up.

You are citing rules for snatching Items Worn.

However, A shield is also a weapon. See below:

Shield Bash Attacks

You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
Relevant section bolded.

As this is the case, grabbing items is ignored, in favor of Disarming Weapons, which is the primary use of Disarm, rather than an alternate use of snatching items.

In fact, both the light shield and the heavy shield are listed under martial weapons in the weapons tables of the SRD.

[KevLar]

It's amazing how everything changes by emphasizing different phrases. :smallsmile: Here's another take:


You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon.
The shield is considered a weapon when you hit someone with it. Why should it be considered a weapon when you don't?

[Talic]

Talic, 3 points

1) Crystal of Screening. I asked, but that was way back. It shouldn't work Vs a fellow ethereal creature like Stella. Correct? Correct.

2) I just noticed that you used a Lurk Augment with the Telekinesis. (It would have succeeded anyway, this is for future reference.) Please, don't tell me you can do that. Grapple attacks are melee touch attacks. That part is fine. The only question is, are you performing the action? As your caster level and mental stat are used, I leaned towards yes. However, it is open to interpretation. I'll go ahead and leave the Augments off Telekinesis, as there is more than one way to interpret it.

Your Telekinesis is a supernatural ability, not your melee attack. You can't augment it. Need I argue about this, or do you agree?Tome of Battle has many abilities which are both Melee attacks AND Supernatural abilities. The two are not mutually exclusive. Look in Shadow Hand, and tell me if the Ghost Blade maneuver (a supernatural ability wherein you make an attack) is your attack.


3) I have no problem whatsoever continuing the match from here. However, considering that by RAW I've been moving illegally all this time, and that I should be visible at the crucial "Death from Above" moment, and that my shield should be still strapped around my arm...
If you want to start over, with full HP and our newly-agreed rules concerning the ill-defined ethereal Vs ethereal combat, I also have no problem.
Your call. :smallsmile:
Only issue is that the shield "rule" isn't mutually agreed upon.


It's amazing how everything changes by emphasizing different phrases. :smallsmile: Here's another take:


The shield is considered a weapon when you hit someone with it. Why should it be considered a weapon when you don't?

Because it is listed as a martial melee weapon in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponDescriptions), and it can be enchanted as a weapon.

Would that mean that a longsword isn't a weapon unless you are swinging it?

[Adumbration]

I believe the shield is treated as a worn item in this case - it is rated as armor for purposes of donning it, it has an AC rating, etc. etc. I think it's the same thing as with spiked gauntlets - although shields are not specifically mentioned in that section, they are, as gauntlets, armor that can be used for attacking. By no means does this make them purely weapons, like you are treating them.

[Adumbration]

Would that mean that a longsword isn't a weapon unless you are swinging it?

Are longswords donned? Do you wear them? Do they have an AC rating?

The answers to those questions are all negative, so it is considered a weapon. Always.

[KevLar]

Only issue is that the shield "rule" isn't mutually agreed upon.
True, but I had no idea you'd disagree on that when I wrote it. I sincerely thought you'd find it sensible. I certainly didn't expect you to say, more or less, "don't bring your common sense to my D&D".

I'm not happy. The word "rules-lawering" comes to mind.

I propose we continue this some other time with a judge or referee of some sort, because apparently we can't sort everything out by compromise.

[Talic]

They are purely weapons. And Purely shields. They are not, however, armor.

Gauntlets are specifically listed as stating that they cannot be disarmed. Your entire argument is based on a subjective opinion that the shield qualifies as a "well-secured item" with no RAW text to support it.

My argument is based on an objective opinion that it is a weapon, a one handed or light weapon, based on its size, with a listed damage, crit chance, and even feats that support it's use as a weapon (Shield Toss, Improved Shield Bash, etc). It has entries in both the Armor and Shields section, and in the Weapons section. Thus, it is both.

That means you can pin it aside with pin shield, and you can sunder it, as a weapon, when you make a sunder attack. You can make attacks of opportunity with it. It's not "only a weapon when it's used", or when you want it to be. It is a weapon. That's RAW.

By your interpretation, I can build a character with 2 shields, use one for defense, enchant the other one to be +5, Impact, Ghost touch, Flaming, Disruption....

And not only is that not really a weapon, but there's no recourse for disarming it? That's silliness.

[Talic]

True, but I had no idea you'd disagree on that when I wrote it. I sincerely thought you'd find it sensible. I certainly didn't expect you to say, more or less, "don't bring your common sense to my D&D".

I'm not happy. The word "rules-lawering" comes to mind.

I propose we continue this some other time with a judge or referee of some sort, because apparently we can't sort everything out by compromise.

I say that because the written rules specifically go against common sense in many occasions. In D&D, a 1/2 pound brick can fall on someone from 100 feet up, and it will cause no damage.

IRL? You're looking at pavement meets brains.

The rules for D&D are not always compatible with common sense (keep in mind, before you say I'm rules lawyering, I'm vulnerable to the exact same attack). At its core, it's a game. Nothing more, nothing less. It's there to have fun with. It's not there to spend an hour trying to quibble over details.

The "well secured items worn" clause in the Disarm Section, IMO, does not refer to something held on an extremity, that can be pulled off as a move equivalent action by the wielder. This "well-secured" item can be removed and dropped in under 3 seconds, assuming that move and standard actions occupy an equal part of a 6 second round.

That does not sound "well-secured" to me, even by common sense.

[Adumbration]

If you are willing to accept a third, completely neutral opinion, keep an eye on here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5413036#post5413036) I just posted the big question there, and I believe that Lord Lorac Silvanos or someone else can present the case much better than I do.

In the other hand, if nothing in the world can change your opinion on this, I doubt that even this will be able to change your mind.

And a sidenote... If RAW is the god to you, in any future match my character will carry a bucket of water to drown (read: heal) himself in.

EDIT: So I'm not alone in my interpretion of the rules. Look. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5413036#post5413036)

If this is not enough, we can post a thread about it for full arguments.

[KevLar]

Asked and answered. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5413036#post5413036) For what it's worth...
EDIT- Ninja'd!

[Talic]

RAW is not a be all and end all. But when your view is open to interpretation on a subjective term (well-secured), and RAW has something to say, I tend to lean towards it.

Again, a shield can be completely removed and dropped in under 6 seconds, in a single move action (and a free). Does that qualify as well-secured in your opinion? If it can be readied in the same amount of time (and it can), are those leather straps really tightly lashed?

Or is it a slightly loose pair of straps, that you can get an arm into and out of quickly?

In other words, do you honestly think you need to completely immobilize someone in a pin to pry a shield off of an extremity? Or Might a particularly savage twist and pull do the trick?

If the latter is the case, then it is represented by an opposed attack roll.

[KevLar]

Talic, no offense, but I really don't want to... how did you say it? Quibble about this. I really don't.

I repeat my previous statement. I'll gladly continue the match (or start over, whatever you prefer) with a referee.

Thank you.

[Adumbration]

RAW is not a be all and end all. But when your view is open to interpretation on a subjective term (well-secured), and RAW has something to say, I tend to lean towards it.

Again, a shield can be completely removed and dropped in under 6 seconds, in a single move action (and a free). Does that qualify as well-secured in your opinion? If it can be readied in the same amount of time (and it can), are those leather straps really tightly lashed?

Or is it a slightly loose pair of straps, that you can get an arm into and out of quickly?

In other words, do you honestly think you need to completely immobilize someone in a pin to pry a shield off of an extremity? Or Might a particularly savage twist and pull do the trick?

If the latter is the case, then it is represented by an opposed attack roll.

I do think you need to completely immobilize someone to remove a proper shield. The shield is attached with leather straps - write that to Google Image to see what a leather strap looks like. It takes only a few seconds to loosen the straps with a free hand, but it is extremely difficult to dislogde, say with a blow.

[Talic]

Asked and answered. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5413036#post5413036) For what it's worth...
EDIT- Ninja'd!

For what it's worth, Adumbration himself suggested Silvanos's answer. Duke's not a bad guy, but bear in mind, it's all opinion, and you'll get this argument from every. single. person. who wants to dispute it. I'll go with it for now, but I'd like to keep an eye on that.

[Talic]

I do think you need to completely immobilize someone to remove a proper shield. The shield is attached with leather straps - write that to Google Image to see what a leather strap looks like. It takes only a few seconds to loosen the straps with a free hand, but it is extremely difficult to dislogde, say with a blow.

And almost impossible for the straps to be cut... oh wait.

See? This is where the common sense breaks down again.

In D&D, a guy can slip his arm into those straps, and tighten them down, in naught but a couple seconds.

Those thick... secure... fastened... straps.

Fastened straps whose attachment most closely resembles tying a shoe one handed.

So, either we accept that yes, is doesn't make sense that someone can do that, that quickly, or we accept that yes, is doesn't make sense that it's not well-secured, but that's true.

Either way requires suspension of sensibilities.

I mean, for example, your argument is that it makes perfect sense that you need to be able to stop someone from speaking before you can loosen those straps.

I can see both sides of the issue. I really can. But what you are saying is that it is absolutely impossible for a level 4 character to disarm a readied shield. Even if he rolls nothing but 20's, and his opponent rolls nothing but 1's. It is beyond the realm of possibility.

Because your one attack every round will be made establishing a pin, and will thus never be able to remove the shield.

So we have Joe McLevelOneHalfling, with his buckler and his 6 strength.

We have Beefy McOgre, who grabs him.

Beefy McOgre, no matter how strong he is, even with a 28 strength... will forever be foiled by two leather straps. Three if you count the halfling's arm. And this is why common sense cannot always be used in D&D. Because the rules create situations that boggle the mind.

Not because I'm a cheese-monkey that advocates heals by drowning. Next time, please understand what I'm saying before deriding it.

[Adumbration]

And almost impossible for the straps to be cut... oh wait.

See? This is where the common sense breaks down again.

In D&D, a guy can slip his arm into those straps, and tighten them down, in naught but a couple seconds.

Those thick... secure... fastened... straps.

Fastened straps whose attachment most closely resembles tying a shoe one handed.

So, either we accept that yes, is doesn't make sense that someone can do that, that quickly, or we accept that yes, is doesn't make sense that it's not well-secured, but that's true.

Either way requires suspension of sensibilities.

I mean, for example, your argument is that it makes perfect sense that you need to be able to stop someone from speaking before you can loosen those straps.

I can see both sides of the issue. I really can. But what you are saying is that it is absolutely impossible for a level 4 character to disarm a readied shield. Even if he rolls nothing but 20's, and his opponent rolls nothing but 1's. It is beyond the realm of possibility.

Because your one attack every round will be made establishing a pin, and will thus never be able to remove the shield.

So we have Joe McLevelOneHalfling, with his buckler and his 6 strength.

We have Beefy McOgre, who grabs him.

Beefy McOgre, no matter how strong he is, even with a 28 strength... will forever be foiled by two leather straps. Three if you count the halfling's arm.

It's fascinating how you've gone from endorsing RAW to opposing it.

And by the way, cutting the straps would count as Sunder, not disarm, which is relatively easy. Even Beefy McOgre could do it. (Sunder the shield, I mean.)

[Talic]

You sure about that counting as Sunder?

Because when you sunder, you're going for the wood or metal of the shield, and overcoming its hardness...

Whereas, in the very text you posted on snatching items...


If the item is poorly secured or otherwise easy to snatch or cut away the attacker gets a +4 bonus.

Yes, Disarming can involve cutting away at a weak spot.

Oh, and I'm not opposing RAW. I'm showing that Common Sense does not always apply to RAW. I am pointing out that if a shield is a well secured item, that's the common sense flaw you come up with.

A character that can bench press Hondas unable to take a shield off the arm of a 35 pound weakling. No matter what.

EDIT: From a different point of view...

Do you think that a character with a 38 strength could make the break DC of a pair of leather straps? A character with an 85% chance to break down a Well made door with a feat of strength.

Because that's what the telekinesis is representing, in the earlier example. A Character with a better than a 50% chance to bend iron bars... Jerking on that shield for all its worth. By your common sense, does it seem reasonable that the leather straps you're vaunting might not be designed to handle that level of strain?

[KevLar]

Talic, the reason I stopped arguing with you after some point is not because I can't - it's because I don't want to.

Things are rather simple.

We find a referee. You can put an add that says "Referee wanted, Qualifications: must rule that shields can be disarmed" for all I care.

If he/she says A, we go by A.
If he/she says B, we go by B.

You see (in case I didn't make it crystal clear) my problem is NOT a rule about shields. It's the "quibble over details" part.

[Adumbration]

Oh, and I posted a thread about it, just for chits and giggles. They too are quibbling. :smalltongue:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98493

[KevLar]

Heh. You know, if we disassociate the argument from the match, I have no problem participating and, ummm, quibbling about it. :smalltongue:

[Talic]

I'd be happy to restart the match, consider the shield well-secured, provided we're using the arena rule that while spells cannot be used in an arena match, they can be used to qualify for feats and PrC's.

[KevLar]

Yes. Check your pm box, please.

Oh, and a question. What about Supernatural abilities that mimic a spell? In or out? (A bunch of people revising the rules can be awfully confusing, heh.)

[Talic]

Yes. Check your pm box, please.

Oh, and a question. What about Supernatural abilities that mimic a spell? In or out? (A bunch of people revising the rules can be awfully confusing, heh.)


Out. I get no pixie invisibility, nor telekinesis. Of course, the rematch I want is with a character that wouldn't have telekinesis anyway.

The living answer to the undead. :)

This guy (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=5427).

Same concept, extended to a creature with a Con Score.

All templates (both of em) can be procured from Crystal Keep.

EDIT: Don't worry, I have no intent to positive energy you to death.

[KevLar]

LOL

Incidentally, I had asked Lyndworm about Vivacious creatures myself, and he said OK, provided they don't heal themselves.

But now that Lyndworm has withdrawn (and since self-healing is something we both do, regardless), I personally have no problem with it.

Question.
You have 1 level of Sorcerer, right? Don't you need 4 to get Ascetic Mage? Or do you have some other way to get 2nd level spells, and I'm too blind to see it, at the moment?

[Talic]

Precocious Apprentice (Feat).

Requirements for sorceror are Charisma 15. Gives you 1 level 2 spell slot, 1 spell only, and you need to make a Caster level check to cast it. But you have the ability to cast a level 2 spell.

The feat's in Complete Arcane.

EDIT: Also, Vivacious healing? 1d4+Charisma, once every 1d4 or so rounds? LOL, their Fast healing outdoes that. Lyndworm had funny ideas about balance.

Want to make a truce agreement? I won't try to lay hands on you if you don't try to deadly touch me? I mean, they're both pretty much a 1 hit KO... lol.

[KevLar]

Yeap, I was blind after all.


Want to make a truce agreement? I won't try to lay hands on you if you don't try to deadly touch me? I mean, they're both pretty much a 1 hit KO... lol.
No problem.
However, your CON score didn't get you that many hit points after all, and I'm pathetic of course, and we're both paladins who smite with divine might and a bunch of bonuses to damage. 1 hit KO is a very likely outcome either way.

Now, I'll look at your character sheet more carefully in a while. And I'll do that because I think I'm in a "only nat 20 hits" territory. So I'd like to see if there's anything I can do about it. Quick question, because I'm lazy: are you drainable?

(You have the right to remain silent. :smalltongue:)

[Talic]

Yes. I'm drainable.

Question: Did you know that without a ghost touch shield, an incorporeal creature's shield bonus does not apply to corporeal foes?

Edit: As for why I'm using a gauntlet?

Unarmed strikes are really unique attacks. They're one of the only attacks that you can apply both weapon finesse AND power attack to.

EDIT2:
Now, ghosts while manifested get a deflection to AC.

Incorporeal creatures get a deflection to AC.

Do these bonuses apply against other incorporeal foes? The interpretation could go either way. Either the deflection is part of incorporeal, and no, because incorporeal creatures don't benefit from incorporeal against each other...
or the deflection is a seperate benefit, and they do benefit from it. Or rather, the incorporeal clause refers to miss chance only, not other bonuses.

Oh, I think I may have shorted myself about 40k gold. I may have carried the wrong number lol. I will look later, but if so, an amulet of health +6 may be in order. I could do a lot with 45 HP.

[KevLar]

Yes. I'm drainable.

Question: Did you know that without a ghost touch shield, an incorporeal creature's shield bonus does not apply to corporeal foes?

Umm, no. I'll look it up. I find it possible, and if this is the case, this should be also the case for armor. Logically. That nerfs my build pretty much :smalltongue: and I'll have to revise it.

Do you have a quick link (or page reference) for the above?

[Talic]

Umm, no. I'll look it up. I find it possible, and if this is the case, this should be also the case for armor. Logically. That nerfs my build pretty much :smalltongue: and I'll have to revise it.

Do you have a quick link (or page reference) for the above?

Search the SRD (www.d20srd.com).

Go into magic items.
Armor Special Abilities.
Look up Ghost Touch.

It's why my shield is ghost touch.

EDIT: And yes, it applies to armor too. For armor, oddly enough, it's a +3 enhancement.

EDIT2:

PHB, p. 309. Glossary for incorporeal. They receive no armor or natural armor bonus. Technically, by oversight, this does not state that they don't get shield bonuses.

DMG, p.219. Mentions that you get the enhancement bonus. So All I can see is that you'd get the shield bonus, but not the enhancement bonus, without ghost touch.

[KevLar]

Hmm, well, yesss... but...

This is referring to corporeal armor/shields. If our equipment is incorporeal to begin with, I don't see the problem. At first glance, at least.

I had a similar question about Ghost Touch weapons. Turned out (according to Silvanos, and I found it pretty reasonable) that a ghost with a Ghost Touch weapon, regardless whether it is corporeal or not, hits unerringly corporeal foes BUT doesn't ignore material armor, natural armor and shields. Because the Ghost Touch weapon counts as either corporeal OR incorporeal at any given time. Can't do both. With an incorporeal weapon that doesn't have the Ghost Touch property, you suffer a 50% miss chance, but ignore material armor etc.

Hence, Vs corporeal foes, I should probably remove the crystal and use Seeking Smite.

The Ghost Touch armor and shield, on the other hand, has no such clause (counting as either corporeal or incorporeal, I mean). Its bonus counts Vs both corporeal and incorporeal attacks, which is a world of difference.
As for this:

It can be picked up, moved, and worn by incorporeal creatures at any time. Incorporeal creatures gain the armor or shield’s enhancement bonus against both corporeal and incorporeal attacks, and they can still pass freely through solid objects.
...it obviously refers to corporeal armor and shield. Otherwise, the ghost could pick it up and wear it anyway.

I'm not a 100% certain. Once again, these are ill-defined rules. But until I find somewhere a sentence that says "the ghost's shield (or the incorporeal creature's incorporeal shield) doesn't count Vs corporeal opponents", I'm not convinced about this, either.
*confused*

[Talic]

PHB 309. That outlines Armor bonus, but not shield. Probably an oversight, but by the rules, you get Shield bonuses.

[KevLar]

Why didn't I ever notice this?
Answer: because, of all places, it's only in the bloody glossary.

I am very annoyed with WotC at the moment. Very, very annoyed.

You are absolutely right. Stella needs a major overhaul. I'll get to it later today (I gotta go now).

*sigh*

[Talic]

True enough. Doesn't matter vs. other incorporeal foes, though.

[KevLar]

Damn, I should have gone already, I'm late.

I though about going Ascetic myself. But if you get your Wisdom-turned-to-Charisma AC bonus from either Monk or Swordsage, you lose it if you carry a shield at the same time. Conflict.

Is there a way around that? How are Animated Shields treated for cases like this?

*still annoyed with WotC*

[Talic]

Damn, I should have gone already, I'm late.

I though about going Ascetic myself. But if you get your Wisdom-turned-to-Charisma AC bonus from either Monk or Swordsage, you lose it if you carry a shield at the same time. Conflict.

Is there a way around that? How are Animated Shields treated for cases like this?

*still annoyed with WotC*

Animated shields are considered wielded by you, so much so that they must be disarmed. (they're most certainly NOT well-secured, though, lol, as they're floating in mid air).

No, mine is so that there is almost no mechanical benefit to sundering my shield. At least, not enough to justify using an action to do it. It's a layered defense, gives my AC a bit of depth that's hard to stop. You've got to do a LOT to prevent my AC, though with the shield, I gain about 8 extra points.

[KevLar]

No, mine is so that there is almost no mechanical benefit to sundering my shield. At least, not enough to justify using an action to do it. It's a layered defense, gives my AC a bit of depth that's hard to stop. You've got to do a LOT to prevent my AC, though with the shield, I gain about 8 extra points.
But if you get a shield bonus from your shield (with or without Divine Shield), you don't get AC bonus from monk or swordsage. You either ditch the shield and keep you Wis-turned-Cha AC bonus or keep the shield and forgo the AC bonus. You can't have both.

Monk loses the AC bonus when carrying a shield, and so does Swordsage. Unless, of course, the "other" +14 bonus on your character sheet is from something else. Is it?

[Talic]

But if you get a shield bonus from your shield (with or without Divine Shield), you don't get AC bonus from monk or swordsage. You either ditch the shield and keep you Wis-turned-Cha AC bonus or keep the shield and forgo the AC bonus. You can't have both.

Monk loses the AC bonus when carrying a shield, and so does Swordsage. Unless, of course, the "other" +14 bonus on your character sheet is from something else. Is it?

Correct. When the shield is there, I don't get +14 from Monk.
When the shield is gone, I do. End result, I always get Cha to AC. With the shield, I just get Cha and shield bonus. The +14 in other applies to divine shield when the shield bonus is there, for convenience of my opponent. It can pretty much be assumed that'll be on 100% of the time.

[KevLar]

Update

I've made some very minor changes to Stella. Added Ghost Touch to armor+shield, fooled around with the equipment just so I can afford it, and took Frightful Moan.

Because the (pathetically weak) Corrupting Touch was chosen simply to be as thematically appropriate as possible. Now that the rules about armor came into view and the arena rules came into place, I don't feel like hitting myself with a nerf bat any more. Not that I expect Frightful Moan to save me. It's psychological.

I'm not satisfied at all with the result. And yes, you guessed it, I am still pissed off at WotC. :smallmad:

In any case, I'll play a game with your Radiant Vivacious killer. I expect that it will painfully teach me to never neglect my touch AC again. :smalltongue:

Question.
It's not stated explicitly, but I assume your aura is harmful to undead. Right?

[Talic]

Update

I've made some very minor changes to Stella. Added Ghost Touch to armor+shield, fooled around with the equipment just so I can afford it, and took Frightful Moan.

Because the (pathetically weak) Corrupting Touch was chosen simply to be as thematically appropriate as possible. Now that the rules about armor came into view and the arena rules came into place, I don't feel like hitting myself with a nerf bat any more. Not that I expect Frightful Moan to save me. It's psychological.

I'm not satisfied at all with the result. And yes, you guessed it, I am still pissed off at WotC. :smallmad:

In any case, I'll play a game with your Radiant Vivacious killer. I expect that it will painfully teach me to never neglect my touch AC again. :smalltongue:

Question.
It's not stated explicitly, but I assume your aura is harmful to undead. Right?

Aura: No. Deathbeam of healing: Yes.

The aura only heals living creatures. Makes no reference of affecting undead.

[KevLar]

True. I'm not complaining.

[Talic]

K, found I was sitting on over 40k of unspent wealth, so I upgraded a piece of gear, and am good to go.

[Talic]

Initiative: [roll0]

Vert axis: [roll1]
Horz axis: [roll2]

[KevLar]

Initiative: [roll0]

Vert axis: [roll1]
Horz axis: [roll2]

[Talic]

I'm in S11, you're in T21.

Pre actions: Standard: Divine shield
Swift: Stance of clarity, target - opponent
Free: Dodge, target - opponent
Free: Allocate defender bonus entirely to AC

[KevLar]

I'm in T-21, you are in S-11.

Surprise round

Swift: activate marshal's aura
standard: ready action for divine shield
crusader, crusader, the legend is born: [roll0], [roll1]

Round 1
swift action: Law devotion to AC
standard action: divine shield
move action: see below
crusader, the warrior king: [roll2]

divine shield left: 7
law devotion left: 10
rebuke left: 17

Not sure if I can see you. I fly up, I see you and say "hi!", and then I promptly move and hide to S-18, altitude 10. Presumably, after being hit by a readied death beam. :smallamused:

Hide [roll3]
Move Silently [roll4] (-5 penalty included)

[Talic]

No death beam. I move up 40 feet.

Standard: Assume total Defense.
Swift: Activate Travel Devotion.

Free: Speak: "Come to your doom, wretched beast."

[KevLar]

That was a hasty and dumb move, come to think of it, but now that I did it, I'll suck it up...

EDIT- yes, umm, I expected you to do something else. :smalltongue:

[KevLar]

Round 2

- Since you asked so nicely...

Stella charges.


Free action: Law Devotion to attack, divine might
Swift action: Stance of Clarity
Full round action: charging smite, awesome smite ignores DR, Battle Leader's Charge

Attack: moving 10 ft and smiting in stance +48 +15 smite = +63
Damage: moving 10 ft 1d8+16 + 35 charging smite +10 Battle Leader's Charge + 13 gauntlets = 1d8+61 slashing + 13 fire

crusader, onwards right onwards into the night: [roll0]
divine shield left: 6
law devotion left: 9
rebuke left: 16

desperate attack: [roll1]
damage: [roll2] slashing, ignore DR etc, + 13 fire

EDIT- Wrong. Wrong. Remove 15 from the attack roll. Sorry. (I counted Smite twice by mistake)

EDIT2 - I did say it was a desperate attack, didn't I?

EDIT3- Second thought again, remove 8 from the attack (counted smite twice, but didn't count Law devotion). Won't hit any way, just saying.

[Talic]

AC=
10 (base)
+8 (shield)
+14 (bonus to shield - divine shield)
+ 8 (armor, bracers of armor)
+ 1 (size)
+ 12 (dex)
+4 (defending weapon)
+2 (Stance of clarity)
+1 (Dodge)
+6 (total defense)
=66
Possible +14 (deflection)
=80

[KevLar]

Didn't hit anyway. Is Deflection in or out, then? I thought no. (?)

[Talic]

Depends on interpretation. I'd say probably out, but I included it as an optional, cause I was gonna leave it up to you.

[KevLar]

I have two reasons to keep it a "no".

One, I am tired of revising the incorporeal battle rules.
Two, if it's in, I will concede (with no hard feelings at all, simply acknowledging the superiority of your build).

Your call. :)

[Talic]

Out, as I said I was already leaning towards it anyway.

Swift: Travel Devotion movement - 20 feet back. Tumble: [roll0] DC 15, to not provoke.

Free: Allocate Defender bonus to Attack.
Full Round: Charge. Smite. No divine might, as I have no extra swift action to call it up.

Power attack for 1.

Attack: [roll1]
If hit: [roll2] (base)+ [roll3] (truedeath) + 1 (str) + 42 (charging smite) + 4 (enhance) +1 (power attack)

Seeking Smite, just in case. I think my Magic gauntlet bypasses your DR anyway.

Also, if undead are subject to Dazzle, you need to make a DC 31 will save or be dazzled for [roll4] rounds. Should counter your -1AC armor penalty from Eeeevil paladin stuffs, if you're subject.

[KevLar]

AC: 44 -13 Deflection +2 Stance +1 dodge + 13 divine shield = 47
You just hit with a natural 2. :smalltongue:

Also, Divine Might is a free action. I'll count it in.
No seeking smite (or demolishing smite) needed. 66 damage, 65 after fast healing.

Rolling for crusader's maneuver before deciding what to do.
[roll0]

[KevLar]

Immediate action: moment of perfect mind instead of will save. Natural 1 doesn't fail, so automatic success. Turns out that undead can be dazzled, after all. Huh.

Round 3

Aaaargh!

That hurt. That was also a frightful moan. DC 30 Will or become panicked for [roll0] rounds. You have a -2 penalty to all your saves because you're within 10 ft from a Paladin of Tyranny. If you are immune to sonic or necromantic or mind-affecting or fear effects, ignore.

Move 40 ft down and hide in the shrubbery.

hide [roll1]
move silently [roll2]

free action: Law Devotion to AC
swift action: regain moment of perfect mind
divine shield left: 65
law devotion left: 98
rebuke left: 1716

[Talic]

Paladin. Immune to fear. :)

Assuming you can make the tumble DC 15 to not provoke on that move?

[KevLar]

Right. I forgot.

+34 to Tumble, I'm not rolling. Sorry I didn't say it though.

[Talic]

Free: Defender bonus to AC (all 4)
Standard: Assume Total Defense.
Swift: Move to 40 feet altitude. (travel devotion)

Free: Speak: Where are you hiding, little one? The only road to victory lies through my shield... Not in the bushes.

[KevLar]

Swift: Move to 40 feet altitude.
I thought that's where we were...

Round 4

fast healing +1, hp to 40 (should have ignored 1 :smalltongue: damage from power attack)

standard action: deadly touch, full again.

I'll tell you where I move when you tell me where you are. :)

divine shield left: 4
law devotion left: 7
rebuke left: 16
deadly touch left: 80

[Talic]

Same location. My charge back could have put my +/- 5 feet altitude. The travel devotion was to set me in the right spot.

[KevLar]

On a completely unrelated note:

I just realized that even with a ghost touch armor/shield, you only get the enhancement bonus Vs corporeal foes. (I had seen that before, but never with the knowledge that normal armor bonus doesn't count at all....)

That's the last straw. It means the whole build is worthless. I really can't think of anything to make this work, unless I steal your Ascetic Mage thingy.

I think Stella needs to retire. :smallannoyed:

[Talic]

You can go with Shield Specialization + shield ward, to make the shield bonus apply to Touch AC.

Plus, as I said. Technically, ghosts receive no Armor bonus, and no Natural armor bonus.

Shield Bonus is neither. You should still get that.

[KevLar]

I don't move then. Your turn.

[KevLar]

Plus, as I said. Technically, ghosts receive no Armor bonus, and no Natural armor bonus.

Shield Bonus is neither. You should still get that.
This is RAW. This also an obvious oversight. I don't want to base a build upon it, it annoys me.

[Talic]

Staying still. Go ahead. :)

[KevLar]

Round 5

Charge. (I never learn, do I?)

free actions: divine might, allocate Law Devotion to attack.
full round action: Law bearer. Charging Smite. Demolishing Smite. Power Attack 1 (I had forgotten that before)

Attack: when moving 10 ft and Smiting in stance +48 +2 charge (I had forgotten that too) -1 Power attack +7 Law Devotion +8 Law Bearer =
[roll0]

Damage: 1d8+16 +1 Power Attack + 35 charging smite +4d6 Law Bearer + 13 divine might + 13 Gauntlets=
[roll1] + [roll2] slashing + 13 fire.

divine shield left: 3
law devotion left: 6
rebuke left: 15
deadly touch left: 80
smite left: 6

Crusader again: [roll3], [roll4]

[Talic]

Fast healing 5
Aura of healing +1 - 97 down

Free: Defender weapon back to attack.
Swift: Belt of Battle (2 charges) - Free standard action.
Standard: Lay on hands -self (97). Full again.

Remainder of turn. Activate maneuver - Bounding Assault. Tumble to the other side of you, moving around you. (DC 15, tumble mod +16, auto success).

Attack: Divine Might, Charging Smite. Power attack for 1.

Attack: [roll0]
If hit: [roll1] +[roll2] + 48 (previous bonuses listed) + 16 (divine might) = AUGH, nat 2 then nat 1....

Stats:Lay on hands: 99/196
Turn: 14/17
Smite: 9/11

[KevLar]

Round 6

Free action: laughs like a maniac

move action: 40 down hiding in the shrubbery

ready action: move 40 ft south if I am attacked
crusader: [roll0]
divine shield left: 2
law devotion left: 5
rebuke left: 15
deadly touch left: 80
smite left: 6

[KevLar]

edit
yes tumbling, and hiding:
hide [roll0]
ms [roll1]

[Talic]

Swift: Hmm. I'm in S11, +40, you're in T12, I think, ground level, in the shrubs.
Move 60 feet south, to AE 12.
Ready Action:Move away from my opponent, if she approaches within 10 feet and tries to do anything else.

Done.

[KevLar]

Round 7

swift: allocate Law Devotion to AC
full round action: adaptive style (Obscuring Shadow Veil instead of Mind Over Body, Searing Charge instead of Action Before Thought).
crusader: [roll0], [roll1]

divine shield left: 1
law devotion left: 4
rebuke left: 15
deadly touch left: 80
smite left: 6

Still there, in T-12. You're up.

[Talic]

Maintain my action. Go ahead. If I can't see ya, I ain't meandering around lookin.

Stats:Travel devotion - 3 left.
Divine Shield - expired.

Turn: 14/17
Smite: 9/11
Lay Hands: 99/196

[KevLar]

On another completely unrelated note.

If I take a Crusader to an official arena game, one with a referee/moderator, I will beg him, down on my knees, to roll maneuvers for me in the comfort of his home with his beloved dice/cards, and write the results for me in convenient spoiler tags.

It's driving me mad rolling and counting every single round..

[Talic]

Hence, why I don't use crusader, lol.

[KevLar]

Round 8

move to Z-10.
Hide [roll0]
MS [roll1]

standard: divine shield

damn crusader [roll2]

divine shield left: 7
law devotion left: 3
rebuke left: 14
deadly touch left: 80
smite left: 6

[KevLar]

Another brain fart.
With adaptive style, I wanted to take Strength Draining Strike. Not Obscuring Shadow Veil. Sorry.

[Talic]

Spot's not gonna get you, but I do get a reactive listen.

Listen: [roll0]

More to come.

[Talic]

No Audio... Hmm. I have to assume you're stalking me. Soooo...

Keep my weapon on +4 defense.
Total Defense.
Swift and Move: Move to K3.

Go ahead.

Stats:Travel devotion - 2 left.
Divine Shield - expired.

Turn: 14/17
Smite: 9/11
Lay Hands: 99/196

[KevLar]

Talic, something came up.
We'll continue tomorrow.
Apologies for the inconvenience.

[Talic]

k. Keep in touch. :)

[KevLar]

Round 9

Double move to M-5.
EDIT - Altitude 10 still.

Hide:[roll0]
Move silently:[roll1]

crusader [roll2]

divine shield left: 6
law devotion left: 2
rebuke left: 14
deadly touch left: 80
smite left: 6

[KevLar]

Sadly, I'm conceding, retiring Stella and starting over (when I find the time and peace of mind).

I have made several mistakes with this character, most of them because the rules were hazy or badly written or exceptionally well hidden. But I did a blunder, too. I count Swordsage Wisdom bonus to AC when I carry a shield.

I hate to abandon the game, but I can promise you this. When I come up with a new character, I'll pm you personally.

Thanks for putting up with me..

[Talic]

No problem. :) Let me know. In the meantime, I'm working on something of my own. :D

[KevLar]

A towering figure in a dark robe enters the room where you have been milling around sizing up the competition. His face is completely obscured by his hood. He raises both hands to get your attention and speaks in a deep voice.

Talic (however you are called these days), Salome. You have been chosen to fight. Prepare yourselves!

With that he brings his hands down and the two of you find yourself transported to the arena (http://excessivefreetime.org/arena/arena3.html)

OOC:
You've got time for one swift action and one standard action before you get transported in case you need to adopt a stance or activate an item.

On the map, green is open terrain, yellow is difficult terrain, red/brown is the cliffs (10ft, Climb DC20, blocks LoS). Arena has a 60 foot ceiling.

Opening post should have an initiative roll, anything you said after he called your name and what, if anything you did with the 'surprise round' before being transported. After that, start fighting in initiative order.


Positions
Talic:
Horizontal Axis: [roll0]
Vertical Axis: [roll1]

Salome:
Horizontal Axis: [roll2]
Vertical Axis: [roll3]

[KevLar]

Salome (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=20147)is a dancer. She wears seven veils, jewelery, and naught much else. (OK, she has a cloak, bracers, gauntlets...)

Pre actions


swift: motivate dexterity
swift: activate Stance of Clarity

Initiative: [roll0]

[Talic]

Do you know who I am?

I'm the Juggernaut, Bi... (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=5443)

Ah X-Men, I love that move. Just like the namesake, don't let me get any momentum. Bad things.

Initiative: [roll0]
That's probably a "Wun-Dee-Twentee-plus-yew-win"

Edit: Pre actions: swift: Get in Martial Spirit Stance
Standard: Ready an action to attack with big weapon if opponent enters within reach. Maneuver will be used, Disrupting Strike.

[KevLar]

You're in Q-37, I'm in P-40, right?


[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]


more to come (damn that crusader, LOL)

[Talic]

Q 36.

Crusader, right.

[roll0] - Douse the Flame
[roll1] - Tactical Strike

Count from top down, skip any maneuver that's granted.

EDIT: Looking at our earlier bouts, I have a way to make your Crusader rolls all go in 1 post.

If you have 5 maneuvers, and you ready 2...

roll 1d5, and 1d4. Count from the top, and skip any that are already selected. Continue as rounds progress.

[KevLar]

Round 1

Designate X-Man for Dodge target.

Free action: Charm Domain power (+4 to Cha)
Free action: Divine Might
Swift action: activate Bracers of Blinding strike

Full round action: Bounding assault. (1st move action, until next to Talic, underground). Second move action, 5 ft up.) Full attack from Pounce, +1 attack from bracers. Charging Smite x3. Power attack 14. Awesome Smite: Demolishing Smite.

attacks: BAB + 16 (cha, slippers) + 1 WF + 6 necklace (4+2 from stance) +2 charge + 18 smite - 14 PA = +43 / +43 / + 38 / + 33

damage: 4 (necklace) + 16 (slippers) + 16 (divine might) + 35 (charging smite) + 14 PA + 16 (gauntlets) = 1d6 + 1d4 + 85 + 16 fire

charm domain rounds left: 10
smite left: 4
rebuke left: 17

Salome dances thus: 5 ft down in the ground, then towards you, then up she emerges, right next to you!
She tumbles.

full attack:
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]

damage:
[roll4] bludgeoning + [roll5] force + 16 fire
[roll6] bludgeoning + [roll7] force + 16 fire
[roll8] bludgeoning + [roll9] force + 16 fire
[roll10] bludgeoning + [roll11] force + 16 fire

Ignores DR (except DR/-, as usual), 14 of the damage is PA.

[KevLar]

Sorry for the delay, I've been calculating stuff.
That's what I've been doing with the Crusader. But it must be done each round. (I shouldn't know in advance what maneuvers I'll get later.) And I forgot it again, of course...

[roll0]

[KevLar]

Wait, you have Robilar's Gambit? Damn... :smalltongue:

[Talic]

Emerging next to me triggers my ready action.

Attack with my greatclub, using disrupting blow, if you enter a threatened square.

Disrupting Blow with my greatclub.

Attack: [roll0]
If Hit: [roll1]
If threat: Flesh Ring of scorn, Auto-confirm, [roll2] damage to me. (only if there's a threat)
If Crit: [roll3]

If this maeuver hits, you must make a will save, DC 42 or be unable to take any actions for 1 round.

Assuming you pass that, your attack stands as posted.

In the future, ignore all fire damage. I'm half red. Immune to the stuff.

[KevLar]

Moment of perfect mind:
Concentration [roll0]

EDIT- I'm down to 49 hp.

EDIT EDIT- No I'm not! My AC went up, and it didn't hit. This time...

Charisma +4, modifier +2, counts twice, therefore:
AC: 50 + 2x2 = 54

[Talic]

Attack 1, From Robilar's Gambit:
Attack: [roll0]
If hit: [roll1]
If threat: Autoconfirm, [roll2] to self
If Crit: [roll3]

How are you obtaining a full attack after moving in a roundabout fashion?

[KevLar]

See my edited post above. AC went to 54 (which I forgot). For now, I'm full. Keep rolling, it will end soon one way or another. :)

[KevLar]

How are you obtaining a full attack after moving in a roundabout fashion?

Bounding assault + Pounce. Considered a charge, therefore I'm pouncing. Doesn't it work that way?

[Talic]

Not Quite. Bounding assault grants you a double move and a single attack. It is considered a charge when determining if feats or other abilities apply to that attack.

So leap attack? Feat that applies to that attack, check.
Pounce? Does not apply to that attack. It alters a charge.

But bounding assault is not considered a charge for all purposes. Only for determining what abilities apply to the one attack granted by the maneuver.

[KevLar]

*scratches head*

Maneuver: "make a double move blah blah ... you can also make a melee attack. You gain a +2 bonus on this attack. This maneuver is considered a charge attack when determining if feats and other abilities apply to your attack."

It doesn't say "single". Hmmm....

Pounce: "When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack".

And Pounce is an ability. A special ability. Hmm...

Actually, if it were up to me, I would accept it (which is why I did it in the first place, LOL.)

But if you insist, I'll give it to you that it doesn't work that way. For now. :smalltongue: So how will we retcon this?

[Talic]

"You can also make a melee attack."

This is singular. Changing it to "a single melee attack" is redundant.

If I were to retcon it, I'd say restart the match. Crusader maneuvers can be unchanged, but you may not want to do what you did, and if you chose to change your action, then I wouldn't want you to know my readied action when you made that alteration.

[KevLar]

(Yes, but other maneuvers say explicitly "make a single attack". Anyway, this is just for conversation's sake, I'm OK with it. :) )

Fair enough. Keeping positions and initiative then?
I'll post my 1st Round actions in a minute.

[Talic]

My altered Ready action:Use Brute ring to initiate a bull rush if my opponent ends a movement and then attempts to do anything else while she threatens me.

Note: D&D denotes a difference between a melee attack and a full attack. It does this in the PHB combat section, and in every monster entry in the monster manual.

I think the difference in wording is that you don't have to make a melee attack. You may choose to avoid attacking.

But it's not considered a charge for any of the restrictions that apply to a charge, or any ability, unless that ability actually modifies the melee attack that the maneuver grants you. For example, on a charge, you must have line of sight at the start of your turn to use it.

[KevLar]

Round 1 - The return


Designate X-Man for Dodge target.

Free action: Charm Domain power (+4 to Cha)
Free action: Divine Might

Full round action: Battle Leader's Charge. Full attack from Pounce (this is a charge attack, LOL). Charging Smite x3. Power attack 14. Awesome Smite: Demolishing Smite.

attacks: BAB + 16 (cha, slippers) + 1 WF + 6 necklace (4+2 from stance) +2 charge + 18 smite - 14 PA = +43 / + 38 / + 33

damage: 4 (necklace) + 16 (slippers) + 16 (divine might) + 35 (charging smite) + 14 PA + 10 maneuver + 16 (gauntlets) = 1d6 + 95 + 1d4 + 16 fire

charm domain rounds left: 10
smite left: 4
rebuke left: 17
AC: 54 Actually AC is 54 + 2 (stance) + 1 (dodge) = 57 (sigh)

Re-Rolling the 3rd maneuver: [roll0]

Salome's dances thus: She charges you. Very sophisticated. :smalltongue:
At least, this particular charge doesn't provoke AoO.

Full attack:
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]

Damage:
[roll4] bludgeoning + [roll5] force
[roll6] bludgeoning + [roll7] force
[roll8] bludgeoning + [roll9] force

Ignore DR etc.
Note: if your readied action grants you a miss chance, somehow, and I am aware of it (if you seem blurry suddenly, for example) ignore miss chance instead of DR.

[Talic]

No. My readied action is to activate My brute ring to bull rush you. The trigger is if you stop moving and attempt to do anything else.

The ring uses either a +5 modifier, or my modifier, whichever is higher. It is a force effect, thus can bull rush incorporeal creatures.

Opposed strength check: [roll0]
(27 Str +4 Large)

[KevLar]

So where do I end up, then? :)

[KevLar]

If you need a check to determine that: [roll0]

[Talic]

25 feet away. This should also break your charge action, making it no longer possible to continue it, as you have not moved in a straight line any longer.

I'll plot it out, as shock trooper allows me to direct the bull rush.

Your final square should put you in V40.

[KevLar]

I'm not sure where you mean, so.. Define square, please. :smallsmile:

Sorry, didn't see it.
Hiding to T-40 then.
1d20+30
I'm all yours.

[Talic]

V40 is the square.

[KevLar]

Hiding to T-40 then.
[roll0]
I'm all yours.

EDIT - Literally, after that 1. :smalltongue:

[KevLar]

I read the map wrong...

U-40 it is.

[Talic]

Reactive Spot: [roll0]

EDIT: That will see you.

My action follows.

See next page.

[Talic]

I realized my spot modifer is wrong. I should not receive any benefit from my ranks. There's a crystal mask and skill points in the pooper. However, unless you have hide in plain sight, I still see you, as you cannot make a hide check while being observed.

Do I?

Crusader:[roll0] - Crusader's Strike

[KevLar]

I realized my spot modifer is wrong. I should not receive any benefit from my ranks. There's a crystal mask and skill points in the pooper. However, unless you have hide in plain sight, I still see you, as you cannot make a hide check while being observed.
The last part is correct, I should have burrowed.

The first part, I don't understand. I'm not invisible. You can see me. Why don't your ranks count?

[Talic]

The last part is correct, I should have burrowed.

The first part, I don't understand. I'm not invisible. You can see me. Why don't your ranks count?

War Hulk. I've got No Time To Think! lol

[KevLar]

War Hulk is a very funny class. (Just read it.)

[Talic]

Since I do, in fact, see you...

1) Robilar's gambit. You get a +4 to all hit/damage rolls, I get an AoO every time you hit me. (after each hit)
2) Rage +4 Str, +4 Con.

3) Power attack for 15 (deducting from AC, instead of attack bonus - Shock Trooper.

4) Combat brute kicks in. I did a successful bull rush last round. You were pushed 25 feet. This results in a +5 to hit and damage this round. (if you want to contend this, I'll understand, it can go both ways)

5) Pouncing Charge.

Attack 1: [roll0] (+45 base, +2 Rage, +2 Charge, +5 Brute)
If hit: [roll1] +30 Power attack (prob negated) (43 base +3 rage +5 brute)
If threat: Auto confirm, [roll2] to myself
If Crit: [roll3]

Attack 2: [roll4]
If hit: [roll5] +30 Power attack (prob negated)
If threat: Auto confirm, [roll6] to myself
If Crit: [roll7]

Attack 3: [roll8] (+45 base, +2 Rage, +2 Charge, +5 Brute)
If hit: [roll9] +30 Power attack (prob negated)
If threat: Auto confirm, [roll10] to myself
If Crit: [roll11]

Normally if 2 attacks hit, you'd have to make a fort save DC 46 or be nauseated, but you're immune to fort saves, and 2 attacks hitting = you dead anyway, most likely.

[KevLar]

Dead. Congrats.

Next game, Monday or later (I'll be out of town).

Nice match, and refreshingly fast. :smallsmile:

[Talic]

Oh, if any of those hit:

Attack 1: [roll0] truedeath crystal
Attack 2: [roll1] truedeath crystal
Attack 3: [roll2] truedeath crystal

EDIT: K, I'll remake something unusual. Those damage mods are insane.

[KevLar]

Cool. Oh, and by the way: I am not alone (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5458389&postcount=83). :smalltongue:

Till next time. :)

[Talic]

Yeah, but he contradicts himself.

The maneuver provides a bonus to the one attack you get, so it doesn't apply to any extra attack, because the ability states an attack. (singular)

However, the followup statement also states that it's a charge for determining if feats and abilities apply to your attack. (also singular)

Therefore, if you apply pouncing charge to it, you are considered charging for that one first attack.

And are not considered charging for the rest. Which invalidates pounce, as it only applies when you're charging.