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DiscipleofBob
2008-11-25, 03:54 PM
First of all, the purpose of this thread is not to flame 4th edition, 3.x, or any other system. The purpose of this thread is not to say 4th edition is better than 3.x or vice-versa.

What I'd like for this thread to be is to take the flaws we do see with 4th edition and try to find houserules that work around it. Everyone has a different group and playstyle, so everyone has different expectations and different likes and dislikes about 4th edition. This thread is for people who like 4th edition, but who dislike certain aspects of it (rituals, multiclassing, whatever) so we can try to find ways around the flaws for a better gaming experience overall.

Here's a few topics to kick off the thread:

1. My group has never really had a problem with utility spellcasters dominating the party or the world. Utility magic definitely helps, but no one has played a Fighter or Rogue and said "Man, now I've been rendered useless by utility magic." I understand this is not true for some other groups, but the point is the 10-minute casting time for most rituals seems unnecessarily long and renders a lot of rituals almost completely ineffective. What can I do to fix rituals in this regard?

2. The concept of multiclassing feats is not bad in my opinion. It's just that I don't like the idea of what aspects of other classes I get decided for me. Those cantrips seem pretty useful and I might like my Cleric to be able to use them. Is there a better way to organize multiclassing feats?

3. Our group is heavily focused on roleplaying, not combat. The way experience works in 4E, you have to go through 10 encounters before you can level. This would work for your common dungeon crawl, but what about a game that rarely has more than 1 encounter per session. And what do you do about the whole milestone concept, where players are encouraged to get into fights without resting in order to get more action points, etc.?

Ridureyu
2008-11-25, 03:56 PM
"Both planar systems exist. Have fun!"

DiscipleofBob
2008-11-25, 04:00 PM
"Both planar systems exist. Have fun!"

Not sure from the vagueness of the post if this helps, but in my campaign setting (which uses a completely different cosmology and pantheon), I threw out the idea of Eladrin being part of the Feywild. Instead, I made it so they were descended from the fey (just like their cousins, the elves) but took a different path than the elves. The elves, who stayed in their now ruined remains of an empire, had to adapt to nature and thus became the equivelent of Wood Elves. The eladrin, more adept at magic, left to start their own mageocracy continent away from the mainland, but still send representatives to the mainland to scout out magical talent and educate young wizards.

I have yet to decide if I'll even use the Shadar-Kai. I have no reason to yet.

KKL
2008-11-25, 04:01 PM
3. Our group is heavily focused on roleplaying, not combat. The way experience works in 4E, you have to go through 10 encounters before you can level. This would work for your common dungeon crawl, but what about a game that rarely has more than 1 encounter per session. And what do you do about the whole milestone concept, where players are encouraged to get into fights without resting in order to get more action points, etc.?

There's something in the DMG along the lines of awarding EXP for noncombat encounters.

As for houserules...(Still in progress)

4e Houserules:
Double Weapons are gone because I hate them utterly and broken.
Orbs of Inescapable Consequence are B&.
Orbs of Mental Dominion are B&
Orbs of Ultimate Imposition are B&
The Orb of Mighty Retort's item power is an Encounter power instead of a daily.
Cunning Weapons are B&
Skull Masks do not stack.
The Rod of Corruption's Curse spread does not deal damage if you have a Rod of Reaving. This isn't much of a houserule, as it's pretty much official, but an ounce of protection...
The Orb of Imposition is an Immediate Interrupt used when a foe succeeds on a saving throw against an effect you caused; you can choose to apply a penalty to that saving throw equal to your wisdom modifier. If this would cause the foe to fail the saving throw, he is treated as failing the saving throw.
Dark Fury, Raging Storm, Astral Fire, and Burning Blizzard do not have stat requirements. They're dumb.
I will be using what are referred to as "Action Point Tokens" because I believe they are very nifty in idea and execution. Plus I likea da roleplay even though I admit I suck at it on occasion (a lot of them).

Action Point Tokens
Rewarded for RP - Action Point Tokens (or APT) are rewarded when in RP between two or more PC's a character is further developed, an aspect of a character's backstory comes to light, or when the relationship between interacting PC's develops. Each character participating in the interaction is given an APT for each other participant in the interaction, each labeled for the other participants.

Using an APT - A player may expend one Action Point Token per session, or more often upon DM approval. Expending an Action Point token does not expend an action, and may be used at any time at which an action point may normally be spent. The payer bestows the character indicated on the token the benefits of an action point on the character's current or next turn, and the benefits of an Action Point Token do not interfere with normal action point usage.

Roleplay Applications - In RP, APTs represent the bonds and memories between characters. When a character receives the benefits of an APT, this represents the inspirational cheers from one's allies or motivational memories that drive a character forward.

Ridureyu
2008-11-25, 04:03 PM
Not sure from the vagueness of the post if this helps, but in my campaign setting (which uses a completely different cosmology and pantheon), I threw out the idea of Eladrin being part of the Feywild. Instead, I made it so they were descended from the fey (just like their cousins, the elves) but took a different path than the elves. The elves, who stayed in their now ruined remains of an empire, had to adapt to nature and thus became the equivelent of Wood Elves. The eladrin, more adept at magic, left to start their own mageocracy continent away from the mainland, but still send representatives to the mainland to scout out magical talent and educate young wizards.

I have yet to decide if I'll even use the Shadar-Kai. I have no reason to yet.


Yeah, I was discussing the old Hub versus the (also fun, but totally different) 4E planar system.

And Shadar-Kai? I'm keeping them. Ever since I saw someone play a Shadar-Kai necromancer named Bambi who happens to love bunnies and unicorns (albeit mostly dead), the race seemed to gain a place in my game:smallbiggrin:

Skjaldbakka
2008-11-25, 04:04 PM
You could make rituals take 1 round/level to cast. Instead of 10 minutes.

DiscipleofBob
2008-11-25, 04:04 PM
I will be using what are referred to as "Action Point Tokens" because I believe they are very nifty in idea and execution. Plus I likea da roleplay even though I admit I suck at it on occasion (a lot of them).

Action Point Tokens
Rewarded for RP - Action Point Tokens (or APT) are rewarded when in RP between two or more PC's a character is further developed, an aspect of a character's backstory comes to light, or when the relationship between interacting PC's develops. Each character participating in the interaction is given an APT for each other participant in the interaction, each labeled for the other participants.

Using an APT - A player may expend one Action Point Token per session, or more often upon DM approval. Expending an Action Point token does not expend an action, and may be used at any time at which an action point may normally be spent. The payer bestows the character indicated on the token the benefits of an action point on the character's current or next turn, and the benefits of an Action Point Token do not interfere with normal action point usage.

Roleplay Applications - In RP, APTs represent the bonds and memories between characters. When a character receives the benefits of an APT, this represents the inspirational cheers from one's allies or motivational memories that drive a character forward.

I REALLY like your idea for action points. Talk about encouraging players to roleplay.

KKL
2008-11-25, 04:07 PM
I REALLY like your idea for action points. Talk about encouraging players to roleplay.

I'd love to pretend they're mine, as it'd stroke my ego something huge, but I grabbed it off of the Gleemax forums somewhere.

I personally love it myself. To bits.

Nefarion Xid
2008-11-25, 04:10 PM
2. The concept of multiclassing feats is not bad in my opinion. It's just that I don't like the idea of what aspects of other classes I get decided for me. Those cantrips seem pretty useful and I might like my Cleric to be able to use them. Is there a better way to organize multiclassing feats?


The Wizard Multiclass feat reads "Any level 1 at-will wizard power", which doesn't explicitly exclude cantrips, even though cantrips don't even have a level. I'd let a player pick any 1 At-Will attack power OR any 2 cantrips to use once per encounter.

Of course, there's a level 4 item (Hedge Wizard's Gloves) which let you use Prestidigitation and Mage Hand at-will anyway.

Hal
2008-11-25, 04:15 PM
I believe one solution I've seen on here was to make some of the wizard Cantrips into Ritual magic, where getting access to the ritual allows you to pick 2 Cantrips (something to that effect).

It could also be a multiclassing (ish) feat to gain access to 2 or 3 cantrips, available only to classes who have access to magic (say, trained in Arcana).

Edea
2008-11-25, 04:20 PM
Hmm, I wonder how a 'expend a daily attack power or daily utility power to activate a ritual RIGHT NAO without component cost' would work. Maybe have the option consume a magic item daily power use from the character, instead of the character's daily class powers? Maybe still include the component cost, just cut the (IMO asinine) casting time?

Blackfang108
2008-11-25, 04:24 PM
And Shadar-Kai? I'm keeping them. Ever since I saw someone play a Shadar-Kai necromancer named Bambi who happens to love bunnies and unicorns (albeit mostly dead), the race seemed to gain a place in my game:smallbiggrin:

What the...?

that is...

sweet!

Oracle_Hunter
2008-11-25, 05:14 PM
3. Our group is heavily focused on roleplaying, not combat. The way experience works in 4E, you have to go through 10 encounters before you can level. This would work for your common dungeon crawl, but what about a game that rarely has more than 1 encounter per session. And what do you do about the whole milestone concept, where players are encouraged to get into fights without resting in order to get more action points, etc.?

Handily, 4E has a concept known as "Skill Challenges" in which a substantial non-combat interaction is treated like an Encounter. If you want to make these purely RP and eschew the Skill System, then I suggest you award XP for these major events along the lines provided in the DMG.

As for Milestones, they are only interrupted by taking a long rest, so most PCs should cross at least 1 milestone per day. And, of course, a long rest sends your AP back to 1 anyhow.

Ridureyu
2008-11-25, 06:29 PM
What the...?

that is...

sweet!

Let's just say that her INT and WIS match her name and personality.

Mando Knight
2008-11-25, 06:53 PM
2. The concept of multiclassing feats is not bad in my opinion. It's just that I don't like the idea of what aspects of other classes I get decided for me.

Unfortunately for RAW, WotC's decided to solve this problem the same way they solve every problem... put it into an expansion (splatbook, next miniatures set, etc.). Martial Power provides some new multiclass feats to allow others to gain the Two-Weapon Ranger's ability to dual-wield scimitars, the Fighter's Combat Challenge, Archer Ranger's Prime Shot (useful for Crossbow Rogues...), etc.

TheEmerged
2008-11-25, 07:08 PM
RE: Leveling from non-combat. I use a much simpler system myself, that has served me well for years in many different systems.

"The characters level... when the GM says they level." Doesn't matter how many monsters you kill or how many NPC's you talk to, when the GM decides it's time for the characters to advance they do.

RE: Rituals take too long. I keep hearing this, and honestly I just haven't seen it as a problem yet. That 'yet' is probably a big part of that.

RE: Houserule. The main thing we've decided needs fixing involves power selection and the way encounters tend toward monotony after a certain point. Only having one power at each slot means that the players are tending to choose broader powers instead of more situational powers, for example.

Please note that this is a definite Work In Progress. I'm still not satisfied with it. I originally had it as a feat, but I knew that wasn't going to work when all the players promptly took that feat. The next iteration required an extra level of bookkeeping. The current version however is probably too powerful and involves book diving during the session (which I try to avoid).

Switchout. Minor action, Daily. This turn, your character can use a different Encounter Attack Power of the same level instead of the 'learned' one. Doing so is still considered to use the 'learned' Encounter Attack Power. If your class has the spellbook feature, you can instead use this for a Daily Attack Power in your spellbook as a Move Action (you can only use Switchout once per day, either for the Encounter Attack Power or Daily Attack Power) and only if the Spellbook is weilded.

Example 1: Ahjah the Fighter chose Spinning Sweep as her 1st level Encounter Attack Power. A situation arises where she'd like to use Covering Attack (a different 1st level Encounter Power) instead. She uses her move action to get into place, her minor action to perform the switchout, and then takes Covering Attack as her standard action. She cannot use Spinning Sweep later in this encounter (she has "spent" her 1st level Encounter Attack Power slot), but in later encounters this day she will continue to use Spinng Sweep.

Example 2: SythRyss the Wizard chose to memorize Sleep as his 1st level Daily Attack Power today, and has Flaming Sphere in his spellbook. He suddenly finds himself in an encounter with a white dragon, in what is apparently the last encounter of the day, without having used it. Fortunately he's weilding his spellbook (in his off hand), so he spends his Move action to make the switchout. He can then use his standard action to cast the spell.

As I said, I feel it's still a little too powerful and I don't like the way it can lead to the players diving through their books during a play session. However, the earlier version had them chosing a 'second' encounter attack power in each slot and that proved to cause more bookkeeping than the players cared for. I added the part about the spellbook feature to benefit classes with this feature (my telepath and egoist classes currently use something similar). I decided against allowing this for daily, at-will, and utility powers, although I may include utility power again.

-------------------------------------------

Another thing I'm trying to work on -- but it's a bit backburnered -- is that I want to restore a degree of counterspelling to the system. I also have a bit of an issue with the Dispel Magic utility power, because it tends to overshadow anything else in that slot. I'd like to work these into class features/baseline rules, but nothing has suggested itself yet.

Kurald Galain
2008-11-26, 11:38 AM
Disallow people from dealing non-lethal damage with explosives.

Galdor Miriel
2008-11-26, 12:47 PM
RE Rituals: If you do not like them as they are, change them or make up some new ones. The mechanic is perfectly fine and I have made all kinds of weird things for the PCs to meet that are "Created by a ritual". Te ritual concept frees the dm so players do not say, how did that happen, what spell is that?

RE Multiclassing: I like it so far, do not object to splat books having altenative ways to go. If you want another class feature ask your dm to houserule a feat for it. Simple.

RE Houserules:

1: we use int or dex for initiative
2: we allow damage types to be changed for flavor reasons, such as changing paladins damage from radiant to force for a character concept.

Its a good idea to have a thread on house rules, because the thing I like best about this new system is that it is easy to change things without making the game wacky and having something totally cheesy. In 3.5 I was the king of cheese, and I mean gouda. In this system, because of the way powers work and bonuses stack its easy to spot something stupid and say "NOOOO I smell cheese!"

Inyssius Tor
2008-11-26, 01:29 PM
Unfortunately for RAW, WotC's decided to solve this problem the same way they solve every problem... put it into [...] a splatbook.

What else should they do? An open-ended system would provide a ton of opportunities for abuse and a ton of totally useless possibilities; it would have to be excruciatingly complicated for it to make even a little sense; and it probably would not mesh very well with the modular nature of the game (in which new classes can be created without messing with anything other than the class writeup itself).

And if they were to provide feats for every single class feature of every single class... well, fine, but then why why couldn't they have put the Bard in the first book? Or the Beastmaster Ranger? Or the Shaman? Or the Avenger? Or the Swordmage? Or the Artificer? Or the Raptorans? Or any of the 200-plus pages of magic items in the Adventurer's Vault? Or the Tempest Fighter? Or the new Rogue options? Or the Templar? Or the Barbarian? Or the Dark Pact? Or--because it would be a book the size of the Unabridged Oxford English Dictionary, that's why. Splatbooks kind of seem like the only viable option.

skywalker
2008-11-26, 01:45 PM
3. Our group is heavily focused on roleplaying, not combat. The way experience works in 4E, you have to go through 10 encounters before you can level. This would work for your common dungeon crawl, but what about a game that rarely has more than 1 encounter per session. And what do you do about the whole milestone concept, where players are encouraged to get into fights without resting in order to get more action points, etc.?

Do you really need action points if you're going to be in approximately 1 encounter per day? You can only spend 1 per encounter, so really, the 1 per day should help you out just fine. The reason 4e was done that way was to discourage the "party narcolepsy" problem.

I also like the idea of giving out action points for clever thinking. Such as:

Paladin: "Well, we've got to get across this rune-trap carved in the floor."
Ranger: "Well, I can jump it."
Paladin: "That's not going to work for my and my plate armor..."
Wizard: (joking)"Let's get some plywood or something..."
Paladin: "Well, I did kick down those doors back there..."
Me(the DM): "Action points for the wizard and the paladin!"

Yakk
2008-11-26, 03:10 PM
You can use narrative campaign pacing.

1> Replace all DAILY powers with INSPIRED powers.
Your powers no longer are refreshed by simply sleeping -- instead, they require you to advance the plot

2> A long rest now has the following effects:
a> Reduce action points to 1. If you have 0, remain at 0.
b> Make an Endurance skill check against DC 10. Gain 1 healing surge back, plus 1 for every 10 you beat the check by.
c> You may spend any number of healing surges to regain HP.
Healing up by sleeping is no longer instant.

3> The DM should give out about 5 milestones per level, with 1 or 2 encounters between them.
The usual "once every 2 encounters". Note that the "before resting" clause is removed -- resting is far less potent in this system.

4> Milestone rules change to:
a> Gain an action point
b> Roll 1d6 for each INSPIRED power that is expended. On a 456, the power is refreshed.
c> Refresh all encounter powers.
d> Regain half, rounded up, or your max healing surges.
e> Refresh one INSPIRED magical item power.
f> You may spend one healing surge without resting to regain HP.
A milestone is upgraded to a full half-long-rest. You can place milestones in the middle of a combat -- after the BBEG finishes the ritual and transforms into a half-demon, half-dragon, for example.

5> A character can have at most 1 INSPIRED magical item power refreshed at heroic, 2 at paragon, and 3 at epic tier. At a milestone, the character can roll on the excess unused INPSIRED magical item powers only. The character may choose to discard a refreshed power use if they have different items they want to be active, in order to get more rolls.
This is awkwardly worded. The idea is that you are capped at X magical item powers. If you are below that, at a milestone you can roll on the number of powers you are under X. Then one power gets refreshed on top of that.... And that you don't have to 'waste' a use of an item in order to throw away the use if you decide you'd much rather roll on a different item's power.... I do not know how to word this tightly.

6> When you gain a level, all INSPIRED powers are refreshed. Newly gained powers start refreshed.

7> Just as in the core rules, encounter powers refresh after a short rest. You can spend any number of healing surges during a short rest to regain lost HP.

The idea of all of this is it changes the pacing from being one of "4 encounters per day" to "whatever the plot demands", without changing the game balance significantly.

Resting and healing up via long rests takes longer, allowing a party to be 'harried' in a multiple-day journey.