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weenie
2008-11-25, 05:18 PM
So I was thinking.. We all know that warfare in a high level D&D setting boils down to which side has more casters and who gets access to the Locate City bomb first, but what would warfare look like in a low level(E6) D&D world?

I think casters would still be a great asset, but rather than direct combat they would be used for communication and other sorts of battlefield control.

Also in a lower level world low level units become useful again. 100 lvl 1 foot soldiers represent sure death for even the most epic of heroes, even if he'd have no problem taking them on one at a time.

But still it probably wouldn't be the same thing as ordinary medieval warfare either. Siege towers would be replaced by potions of spider climb, a besieged town would always have a fresh source of water thanks to Clerics spamming create water all the time and it would be actually possible to catapult elite strike teams over castle walls if they had a caster amongst to cast feather fall before they landed.

So if you had to plan an assault on another kingdom, how would you go about it?

Blackfang108
2008-11-25, 05:21 PM
...and it would be actually possible to catapult elite strike teams over castle walls if they had a caster amongst to cast feather fall before they landed.

Rings of featherfall (if applicable. I'm not sure of the magic item avalibility in E6) would be more efficient.

Mostly, I'd Kill everything with fire.

Lots and lots of oil.

bosssmiley
2008-11-25, 05:33 PM
So I was thinking.. We all know that warfare in a high level D&D setting boils down to which side has more casters and who gets access to the Locate City bomb first, but what would warfare look like in a low level(E6) D&D world?

Quick answer: "Warhammer Fantasy Battle"

Longer answer: Knights would return to their rightful place as useful shock troops.
Archery wouldn't be rendered obsolete by wind wall and the like.
A squad of pegasus/griffon-riders would be hardcore again.
Arcane casters would return to the SpecOps/Intel status they held back in the day, rather than being the WMDs of the D&D world.
Clerics would be combat medics again (rather than divine power/righteous mighted tanks)
Bardic music would make a significant difference on the field (♪ Men of Harlech stand ye steady... ♫)
Humanoids are back where they belong: rampaging across the countryside looting and killing en masse
Allied giants and low-mid CR monsters would be the anchor points of the battlefield
Dragon #160 had an article or two devoted to answering exactly this question. The 2E "Birthright" setting (low magic, armies and the clash of kings) is also perfect source material.

BRC
2008-11-25, 05:34 PM
Generally, the lower level you get, the more things will look like real combat.
A human warrior with a longsword (assuming a +1 to str and con), will have 5hp and deal an average of 5 damage per hit. So if you get hit with a longsword, chances are you are down. Perhaps abit more lethal than reality, but it's pretty close. At low levels you won't have one cleric being able to heal massive amounts of troops. You won't have Wizards fireballing the battlefield, you probably won't have much in the way of flying units, ect.

Vexxation
2008-11-25, 05:40 PM
I'd catapult simple traps, like Color Spray traps, at the enemy archers. In a level six world, the average foot soldier will be out of commission for quite awhile.

My army would be either Clerics or Druids.
If Clerics, they'd all be in normal breastplates, with normal maces and shield, but they'd each give themselves a Shield of Faith and a Magic Weapon. Other spells would be based on focus. Crowd Controllers would be using Cause Fear and Obscuring Mist. Frontliners would be using Bless and Entropic Shield. Following behind would be the Hospitalers, healing the injured as they advanced, or slaying the wounded foes they come by.

Druids would be much the same, except those of high enough level to Wildshape. The Wildshapers would go Bear or Wolf. The lower druids would be wearing breastplates and armed with quarterstaves to be targeted by their Shillelagh spell. Animal companions would all be either Badgers or Wolves. Combat would be much the same as that of the Clerics, though Druids of 3rd or higher would be Barkskined. Flaming Sphere would probably see some use. Obscuring Mist would still be used as crowd control. As usual, the Healers would be behind, curing the wounded as they could.

As far as ranged attack, standard siege weapons, plus Wizards. The Wizards would be abusing Mage Hand, firing Colossal bolts at the walls, with rope attached. The ropes would be attached to giant winches, so as to retrieve the bolts and rip holes in the walls. Powering the Winches would be Half-Orc barbarians under Bull's Strength.

That would probably be pretty effective, as long as my supply of troops was big enough. Of course, that would depend on the size of the defending force.

It's totally doable for less that the combined WBL of the troops, especially since I used no magic items.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-25, 05:40 PM
So I was thinking.. We all know that warfare in a high level D&D setting boils down to which side has more casters and who gets access to the Locate City bomb first, but what would warfare look like in a low level(E6) D&D world?

I think casters would still be a great asset, but rather than direct combat they would be used for communication and other sorts of battlefield control.

Also in a lower level world low level units become useful again. 100 lvl 1 foot soldiers represent sure death for even the most epic of heroes, even if he'd have no problem taking them on one at a time.

But still it probably wouldn't be the same thing as ordinary medieval warfare either. Siege towers would be replaced by potions of spider climb, a besieged town would always have a fresh source of water thanks to Clerics spamming create water all the time and it would be actually possible to catapult elite strike teams over castle walls if they had a caster amongst to cast feather fall before they landed.

So if you had to plan an assault on another kingdom, how would you go about it?

Fly + Displacement + Wand of Fireballs. Good bye army. Or Explosive Runes.

At lower levels you move from armies being made worthless by virtue of a single caster to armies being made less than useful by virtue of Fireball.

Casters are a better in combat asset in E6 than they are out of combat. They don't have any of the spells that help an army at level 6. Or they don't have enough castings to be a real help.

Now if you can get them making instant reset magic traps then they become useful out of combat.

Vexxation
2008-11-25, 05:47 PM
Or Explosive Runes.

Yes. Excellent idea. You take a wizard, and powerlevel him or her to level 5. How? Well, even killing unarmed civilians gives *some* XP. So commit some atrocities. Whatever.

Every day, said wizard prepares explosive runes, and scrawls it out. Two years later, you send a "letterbomb" to every person in the opposing keep. BANG BANG BANG BANG- you get the picture.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-25, 06:06 PM
Yes. Excellent idea. You take a wizard, and powerlevel him or her to level 5. How? Well, even killing unarmed civilians gives *some* XP. So commit some atrocities. Whatever.

Every day, said wizard prepares explosive runes, and scrawls it out. Two years later, you send a "letterbomb" to every person in the opposing keep. BANG BANG BANG BANG- you get the picture.

Actually as sappers. At 16 Int a wizard gets 3/day. A sorcerer gets 4/day. After 10 days or so you have a book that deals 180d6 force damage in a 10 foot radius. That's an average of 630 damage. If you maximize 1/3 of those (Sudden Maximize) it's an average of 780 damage. If you are allowed flaws and take Arcane Thesis, Invisible Spell, and Cooperative spell then you can maximize all of your castings. In which case it's 1080 damage.

Invisibility+Fly+Dispel Magic.

Now there is a hole in the wall or the gate is gone.

If you can get Craft Contingent Spell then craft a contingent dispel magic on them and use them as catapult ammo.

Oslecamo
2008-11-25, 06:13 PM
And who says the other side simply doesn't have commoners ordered to read all mail in an empty room before you reading it?

Anyway, lower soldiers are still important for

1-Feeding your monster allies.
2-Reading all letters.
3-Walking ahead of you to set up all the enemy nasty traps.
4-Give them robes and pointy hats and hope the enemy wizard thinks your commoners are wizards and wastes some spells on them.
5-Souls have their uses.
6-Certain powerfull rituals demand lots of assistants to get well done(cough red wizard cough)

EDIT:

Tippy:how exactly are you making sure your dispel magic fails?

Vexxation
2008-11-25, 06:17 PM
And who says the other side simply doesn't have commoners ordered to read all mail in an empty room before you reading it?

Well, they're gonna be short a lot of commoners very quickly, then.
So, they stop accepting/sending mail? Start putting Explosive Runes of intercepted combat orders.

Oslecamo
2008-11-25, 06:19 PM
Well, they're gonna be short a lot of commoners very quickly, then.
So, they stop accepting/sending mail? Start putting Explosive Runes of intercepted combat orders.

Bah, I'll go back to old good flag/smoke message system. Explosive rune that!

Vexxation
2008-11-25, 06:21 PM
Bah, I'll go back to old good flag/smoke message system. Explosive rune that!

Wind Wall, Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud.
MWAHAHAHA! Magic ruins everything.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-25, 06:27 PM
EDIT:

Tippy:how exactly are you making sure your dispel magic fails?

You can auto fail any check.

Oslecamo
2008-11-25, 06:28 PM
Great, you've made a wall 50 foot long and 25 foot high.

Wich I could easily have ordered my experts to build out of wood.

And it would actually block everything, including enemy soldiers from passing by it.

Now make some reflex saves against my rain of catapult boulders/javelins.

At such low levels, all those spells simply don't last long enough or affect a big enough area to really make a diference. I can still easily overrun those spells with basic weapons and soldiers, or even use it to my advantage.

EDIT:Tippy:where's that rule?

Vexxation
2008-11-25, 06:34 PM
At such low levels, all those spells simply don't last long enough or affect a big enough area to really make a diference. I can still easily overrun those spells with basic weapons and soldiers, or even use it to my advantage.

I meant that they could be used to screw up smoke signals. They're only effective in a siege for shutting down a portion of the battlefield or laying a trap within.

As for the battles, yeah. It's really more strength in numbers than anything at those levels. But cleverness can prevail. Like Tippy said, auto-reseting traps. Of, say, Grease, or Sleep, or even damaging spells could be devastating to an opposing army.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-25, 06:35 PM
Actually, the ideal situation (assuming that you aren't allowed to use magic traps) is one wizard leading a group of 20-30 fighter types with a few bards thrown in as well. For spells you want Invisibility Sphere, Stinking Cloud, and Fireball.

The wizard uses Invisibility Sphere to make his whole group invisible until they are in position, at which point they all ready actions to attack and the wizard casts Stinking Cloud followed by a Sudden Quickened, Sudden Maximized, Fireball. Most of the enemies are now dead and those that aren't are nauseated, which makes it easy for your soldiers to kill them.

Throw in a few wizards or use 3 Sorcerers, each knowing one of the 3 spells, and it becomes more repeatable.

Oslecamo
2008-11-25, 06:37 PM
I meant that they could be used to screw up smoke signals. They're only effective in a siege for shutting down a portion of the battlefield or laying a trap within.

As for the battles, yeah. It's really more strength in numbers than anything at those levels. But cleverness can prevail. Like Tippy said, auto-reseting traps. Of, say, Grease, or Sleep, or even damaging spells could be devastating to an opposing army.

Untill my rogues get in position and sucessfully disarm your magic traps. For almost free. While your wizard had to spend several feats, experience and thousands of gold to build them.

Those thousands of gold probably would have been much better applied in massive amounts of basic material instead of traps that'll probably only catch one soldier or two.

Vexxation
2008-11-25, 06:40 PM
Untill my rogues get in position and sucessfully disarm your magic traps. For almost free. While your wizard had to spend several feats, experience and thousands of gold to build them.

Those thousands of gold probably would have been much better applied in massive amounts of basic material instead of traps that'll probably only catch one soldier or two.

I'm sure I could counter the rogues, but then we'd just go back and forth all night one-upping until the absurdity was nigh-infinite.

I suppose that everything depends on the foe.
If you are fighting a BBEG warlord, it's a lot easier than taking on, say, Tippy at his Imperial Stronghold. Other factors are the level of magic, level of deific intervention, and amount of money each side has to start off with.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-25, 06:53 PM
Untill my rogues get in position and sucessfully disarm your magic traps. For almost free. While your wizard had to spend several feats, experience and thousands of gold to build them.

Those thousands of gold probably would have been much better applied in massive amounts of basic material instead of traps that'll probably only catch one soldier or two.

Who said anything about the traps catching enemies? And if you want to do that you make fireball cannons.

You make a trap of fly. Another trap of Heroism. Another one of Greater Magic Weapon. Another of Keen Edge. Another of False Life. Another of Blur. Another of Resist Energy (all types). Another of Enlarge Person. Another of Expeditious Retreat. Another of Mage Armor. Another of Shield. Another of Bear's Endurance. Another of Bull's Strength. Another of Cat's Grace. Another of Fox's Cunning. Another of Owl's Wisdom. Another of Silence. Another of Aid. Another of Delay Poison. Another of Shield of Faith. Another of Entropic Shield. Another of Divine Favor. Another of Deathwatch. Another of Arcane Sight. Another of Bless. Another of Detect Thoughts. Another of See Invisibility. Another of Protection from Arrows. Another of Protection from Evil (all alignments). Another of Alter Self. Another of Resistance.

And that's just for spells from the PHB.

You have all of your soldiers run through your traps (which are in wagons that are lined up end to end) and all the sudden your entire army is under the benefits of all of those spells. All the sudden they have become a threat.

Oslecamo
2008-11-25, 07:16 PM
You have all of your soldiers run through your traps (which are in wagons that are lined up end to end) and all the sudden your entire army is under the benefits of all of those spells. All the sudden they have become a threat.

So all I need to make your economy colapse is some rogues with good diplomacy and bluff with some potions of gliberness back up? Sign me in!

Traps are ridiculously easy to destroy for their cost.

Not to mention the possibility of me capturing your wagons.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-25, 07:20 PM
So all I need to make your economy colapse is some rogues with good diplomacy and bluff with some potions of gliberness back up? Sign me in!

Traps are ridiculously easy to destroy for their cost.

Not to mention the possibility of me capturing your wagons.

Economy? This has nothing at all to do with the economy. These are just for the soldiers.

And how exactly are you doing so? To get around the Detect Thoughts that every single one of my soldiers has up requires a DC 100 Bluff check. Even with Glibness you fall far short of that mark. And if the guards can't read your mind (you're under the effects of nondetection or the like) then they just attack you.

The Silence effects prevent you from bluffing as well.

Oslecamo
2008-11-25, 08:41 PM
Economy? This has nothing at all to do with the economy. These are just for the soldiers.

And how exactly are you doing so? To get around the Detect Thoughts that every single one of my soldiers has up requires a DC 100 Bluff check. Even with Glibness you fall far short of that mark. And if the guards can't read your mind (you're under the effects of nondetection or the like) then they just attack you.

The Silence effects prevent you from bluffing as well.

Hmm, forgery?:smalltongue:

All wagons are to be deslocated to the hill to the north, with minimum escort

You know, if we have infinite money, may as well talk to my contruct army who doesn't need to sleep or breath or eat and also can't be fooled.

Or my massive undead army gotten from raiding giant's cemeteries.

It'll come up to wichever of us manages to spam more units to the battlefield, since teching up to the super nukes is out of question.

chiasaur11
2008-11-25, 08:57 PM
Hmm, forgery?:smalltongue:

All wagons are to be deslocated to the hill to the north, with minimum escort

You know, if we have infinite money, may as well talk to my contruct army who doesn't need to sleep or breath or eat and also can't be fooled.

It'll come up to wichever of us manages to spam more units to the battlefield, since teching up to the super nukes is out of question.

Tippy using...
paper?

I figured it'd be direct mindlink. Harder to subvert, quicker, more reliable.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-25, 08:59 PM
You have all of your soldiers run through your traps (which are in wagons that are lined up end to end) and all the sudden your entire army is under the benefits of all of those spells. All the sudden they have become a threat.

So it's a buffing sequence *and* an obstacle course...

Oslecamo
2008-11-25, 09:07 PM
Tippy using...
paper?

I figured it'd be direct mindlink. Harder to subvert, quicker, more reliable.

I don't see any way you can make long distance mind links with just 3rd level spells.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-25, 09:12 PM
I don't see any way you can make long distance mind links with just 3rd level spells.

Whispering Wind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/whisperingWind.htm) and a wand of Sending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm) immediately spring to mind.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-25, 09:16 PM
I don't see any way you can make long distance mind links with just 3rd level spells.

First level Telepath power Mindlink. Getting line of effect could be tricky (I'm not sure if Ring Gates are an item that you can get in E6.

There is also Missive.

And a number of items that could do it. But again I'm not sure what item rules E6 uses.

Triaxx
2008-11-25, 09:54 PM
Magic Missiles become man killers again. Especially if you slap them into wands, and maximized. Arm the front liners with them and UMD to use them.

Don't forget that you've got access to web, which can be lit up with flaming arrows. Also, Stinking Cloud.

Kemper Boyd
2008-11-26, 03:50 AM
Eberron has a pretty decent description of how warfare would look.

weenie
2008-11-26, 04:35 AM
The thing is that in E6 you're not going to have as many casters as in regular D&D. Also if you convert characters so that regular lvl20 equals E6 lvl6, you're not going to have that much lvl5+ wizards that could create all those wands of Fireball. Even lower level wizards are hard to come by, so it's risky to send them buff up the front lines. Item creation is rare and costly. There's no horde of zombies digging up gold all the time, thus wealth levels should be a lot lower. A typical army doesn't have enough money to buy armor for all infantry units, let alone buying them rings of detect thoughts..

BobVosh
2008-11-26, 04:40 AM
Who said anything about the traps catching enemies? And if you want to do that you make fireball cannons.

You make a trap of fly. Another trap of Heroism. Another one of Greater Magic Weapon. Another of Keen Edge. Another of False Life. Another of Blur. Another of Resist Energy (all types). Another of Enlarge Person. Another of Expeditious Retreat. Another of Mage Armor. Another of Shield. Another of Bear's Endurance. Another of Bull's Strength. Another of Cat's Grace. Another of Fox's Cunning. Another of Owl's Wisdom. Another of Silence. Another of Aid. Another of Delay Poison. Another of Shield of Faith. Another of Entropic Shield. Another of Divine Favor. Another of Deathwatch. Another of Arcane Sight. Another of Bless. Another of Detect Thoughts. Another of See Invisibility. Another of Protection from Arrows. Another of Protection from Evil (all alignments). Another of Alter Self. Another of Resistance.

And that's just for spells from the PHB.

You have all of your soldiers run through your traps (which are in wagons that are lined up end to end) and all the sudden your entire army is under the benefits of all of those spells. All the sudden they have become a threat.

Tippy, I love you. You may add me to the people who think Tippy=Win. Just remember to make them wagons for large characters for the enlarge.

Kemper Boyd
2008-11-26, 09:05 AM
You have all of your soldiers run through your traps (which are in wagons that are lined up end to end) and all the sudden your entire army is under the benefits of all of those spells. All the sudden they have become a threat.

This is completely retarded.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 09:25 AM
This is completely retarded.

No, it's how you make a large army viable in D&D. Even the level 1 warrior becomes a threat when he is under the effects of a CL 20 Divine Power, Righteous Might, Fly, and dozens of other spells.

Zen Master
2008-11-26, 09:35 AM
I find it slightly disturbing how many people on these boards think that: If I can dream it up, and the rules do not specify that I cannot do this, then this is how it will be.

The way I see it, the all-powerful casters will be so busy countering each other, they'll hardly get to do anything else. Meanwhile, as was always the case, the lowly footman does all the real work. Sure, he'll have low level clerics at his rear, he'll be flanked by heavy horse, there'll be gryphons and wyverns overhead, and from time to time a fireball may reduce a regiment to cinders. But all in all - casters are too few, too rare, and too busy with each other to decide battles, and in the end it comes down to strategy, battlefield conditions and who has the sharper stick.

Also, if you really want to convince yourself casters are all-powerful, why would they even show up for the battle? All that really ought to be beneath them, all that mucking about with politics and wars? Leave that to the mortals, I have planes to forge and gods to displace!

Kemper Boyd
2008-11-26, 11:38 AM
I find it slightly disturbing how many people on these boards think that: If I can dream it up, and the rules do not specify that I cannot do this, then this is how it will be.

This is what I think a lot. If I would be DM'ing to someone who suggests dumb tripe by abusing the rules, I'd just say no.

Vagnarok
2008-11-26, 12:22 PM
I find it slightly disturbing how many people on these boards think that: If I can dream it up, and the rules do not specify that I cannot do this, then this is how it will be.

The way I see it, the all-powerful casters will be so busy countering each other, they'll hardly get to do anything else. Meanwhile, as was always the case, the lowly footman does all the real work. Sure, he'll have low level clerics at his rear, he'll be flanked by heavy horse, there'll be gryphons and wyverns overhead, and from time to time a fireball may reduce a regiment to cinders. But all in all - casters are too few, too rare, and too busy with each other to decide battles, and in the end it comes down to strategy, battlefield conditions and who has the sharper stick.

Also, if you really want to convince yourself casters are all-powerful, why would they even show up for the battle? All that really ought to be beneath them, all that mucking about with politics and wars? Leave that to the mortals, I have planes to forge and gods to displace!

All excellent points. In addition, what battle would be so important that you would forsake all other fronts to win it? Unless you're putting the enemy capital under siege, I don't think that it would be very efficient to put so many resources into a single fight (note: if you're in a universe where this is commonplace, the enemy is probably doing it too, which negates your advantage, and if your resources outweigh those of your opponents by that much, what the heck are you doing fighting anyway? They probably would have surrendered already). While you're busy building traps to take a castle, he's probably bypassed your choke points and is knocking on your front door with a massive attack force.

I guess if you're going to stage a surprise attack against an unwary enemy then it would work, but that's pretty evilly aligned if you ask me. You'd have a tough time getting an entire nation to go along with it in most campaigns.

AKA_Bait
2008-11-26, 12:30 PM
Magic Missiles become man killers again. Especially if you slap them into wands, and maximized. Arm the front liners with them and UMD to use them.


More than that. Wands of MM would be a choice weapon for Assassians, IMO. You can unerringly smack someone for 15 damage from 160ft. away. In E6, 15 damage is a lot and kills your average 4th level or lower Aristocrat in one go. Might be able to do 19 with some the caster level upping feat. I'd expect most nobility to be given brooches of shielding at birth.

Also, reserve feats for combat oriented casters, become a must have.

Truwar
2008-11-26, 01:18 PM
I think the main problem is the idea that armies are made up of vast tides of lv 1 warriors. If this is the case, what is the difference between your ultra-green-just-learned-how-to-not-stab-themself-with-a-martial-weapon troops and your regulars, or your veterans, or crack troops? I would suggest a level spread along these lines:

Lv 1: Green Troops, they are completely untested and just barely trained.

Lv 2-3: Regular Troops, they have been blooded and generally know what they are doing.

Lv 4-5: Veteran Troops, they have been in numerous battles, some of them quite nasty and warfare has become second nature to them.

Lv 6-7: Elite, these are the best. They have been thrown into the hottest parts of the battle again and again and have survived to tell about. Very few units can match the skills of these warriors.

This will go a long way to blunting the effects of spells like fireball. Yes they are nasty and a well placed fireball could very well wipe out a squadron of rookie troops, maybe even regulars but it is not going wipe any 20’ radius square of an army that you point it at.

This system also explains why humanity (+ elves, dwarves, etc.) has not been wiped out by ogres, trolls, etc. Your average troll can annihilate half an army of lv1 warriors but a handful of elite soldiers could probably bring it down.

Oslecamo
2008-11-26, 01:25 PM
No, it's how you make a large army viable in D&D. Even the level 1 warrior becomes a threat when he is under the effects of a CL 20 Divine Power, Righteous Might, Fly, and dozens of other spells.

And how exactly did you get a lv20 caster to do it?

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 01:26 PM
And how exactly did you get a lv20 caster to do it?

That's a comment in general, not in regards to the E6 limitation (I'm not sure how it handle caster level).

AKA_Bait
2008-11-26, 01:45 PM
That's a comment in general, not in regards to the E6 limitation (I'm not sure how it handle caster level).

If I remember correctly without checking, it caps at 9-11 for CL (with feats to up it overall and things like spell focus) and the highest level spell possible is 3rd. The dynamic changes a lot.

Tacoma
2008-11-26, 04:20 PM
TL;DR: Magic is still a big part of things. But tactics and circumstances, as always, are far more important than statistics.

We must assume that it doesn't take any longer to gain levels in E6. So an adventurer can reasonably expect to hit level 6 in the same amount of time it took him before. He just doesn't go past that and instead gets a feat every 5,000 XP. This is the heart of E6.

This means the average soldier is still going to be level 1 or 2, with the 10-man unit leaders at level 3 or 4, and the major leaders (those leading perhaps 10 units) at level 5 or 6.

Magic items available are limited to +2 for weapons and armor. There are no rings of wizardry or spell storing. Instead the number of items worn and the bonus source stacking limitation appear to be the main limiting factors for magic items.

To more narrowly define our resources, assume that you have the following on each side in a given battle:

1 captain (level 6)

10 lieutenants (level 3)

100 soldiers (level 1)

And that you can modify these by application of feats or spells. For example, a captain could be high Charisma (18) and have the Leadership feat and so would have personal troops in excess of the above, as follows:
(Noting that the leader is known for fairness and generosity but moves around a lot and has no stronghold)

1 cohort (level 5)

5 soldiers (level 1)

Let us further limit the army to 10,000 GP worth of equipment at the time of engagement.


The various charm spells available are useless (in this edition) for gathering an army because of their short duration. Explosive Runes is an option, but the runes must all be written to be all visible at once and all the same rune (so you could say you comprehended and read them all at once). But then they have to be large enough to read from farther than 10 feet away (or you sacrifice a man to read them). So the trick with making a book full of explosive runes does not work because one going off does not neccessarily set off the others.

Similarly, the various tricks involving Fire Trap and Glyph of Warding are useless because they now have expensive material components (too expensive to Eschew).

Animate Dead has always had a total limit, which is now 4 HD per caster level. Making your captain a Cleric who animates gives you an extra 24 HD of undead, which is a pretty good addition. His cohort could also be a Cleric, giving you +20 HD of Undead. There is an expensive material component but you can get past that by animating only a very small number of high-HD undead.

The "trap that resets instantly and performs a beneficial magical effect" is technically possible via the rules, but you're limited to 3rd level spells with 6th level casters. But using the trapmaking rules there's no reason why I can't make a "trap" in the form of a wand that fires a 5d6 Fireball upon activation for 7,500 GP while a 50-charge 5d6 Wand of Fireball costs 5,625 GP to make. So while you spend a tiny bit more you end up with an infinite wand instead of a regular 50-charge one. I think the trapmaking rules are unbalanced and ill-considered, and you cannot legitimately use them.

The answer to area-effect spells is of course asymmetrical warfare. If I am attacking an enemy, I will refuse to attack unless I have a terrain advantage. I will simply flee and attack at some other time. This means unless I have chariots and cavalry and he has only light skirmishers, I will never fight on an open plain. And because of the threat of Fireball and Fear spells I will never array my units in solid blocks.

Given that, my preferred terrain is a city he holds. My troops would organize loosely in their units but enter the city as individuals, securing employment and housing. Once the area was surveyed, including the locations of the guard stations and shift rotations, my disguised undead supported by a single unit of concealed archers would ambush a one-unit patrol outside the town. The undead and the many summoned monsters would be expected to take the brunt of the fighting, the archers would concentrate on a single enemy soldier unti he dropped before moving on to the next, and the Cleric captain and his cohort would support with Prayer and Bless, while a Bard lieutennant would hit the Undead with Heroism before the fight and sing during. Given the ambush and preparatory spells, the terrain and distance to the enemy, even if the Undead died our troops would remain alive and the enemy troops would all die.
(Remember, they are out on patrol and none of the spells they have available last through a whole day).

Before the enemy patrol goes missing, the troops regroup in town and begin picking off wandering town guards in ones and twos. The pattern would be the spellcasting lieutennant buffing his unit, the unit wandering the street and hanging out as if they were just townfolk, then suddenly jumping the guards on some prearranged signal. The overwhelming odds suggest that we couldn't possibly lose a man except to a stray critical hit dropping him below -10 HP all at once. This of course also assumes the town guard walk around with their weapons out ALL THE TIME and don't need to waste their first round pulling weapons. This tactic should result in each town unit (9 of them) slaying perhaps 3 guards each throughout the evening. Rounding off, the enemy is now down 4 full units and we have negligible losses.

We are always amid normal townsfolk so it's impossible to accurately retaliate, especially with area-effect magic. And remember that the limitations on spells like Detect Thoughts (available only to his spellcasting lieutennants and captain) means that you must spend 3 rounds to detect even surface thoughts, the range is very limited, and a Will save prevents it. And the average townsperson will likely always try to make his Will save so that's no indication something is amiss.



Likely at this point the enemy will hole up in their fortifications, perhaps a large stone barracks or tower, expecting that we will make some kind of big attack on their defensive works to finish them off. If they continue simply patrolling we can finish them off over time.

The spell Stone Shape allows my captain's cohort to reshape 15 cubic feet of stone. Since the enemy doesn't have access to special magic that protects against spells that he can apply to his fortifications in a long-term basis, or even short-term at this level, the Stone Shape spell can cut out a doorway through a 1 foot course of stone in a 3x5 section. An armored human can duck through such a section without much trouble at all, certainly without a movement penalty. The captain would have a second Stone Shape as a backup in case the wall is more than one foot thick.

Now wearing whatever heavier armor the enemy likely bought and we stole, my troops could simply flood the fortified structure from a single weak point in a single round of movement. Of course my newly-raised Undead and any summoned monsters lead the charge and absorb whatever traps they have laid. Since we choose the time of attack, we can buff up but they do not get the chance because they don't know the attack is coming. Darkness can cover their arrow loops so they can't reliably fire out as we approach. And some enemy troops at least will be asleep, wearing armor but not wielding weapons, and so will take a minimum of two rounds to wake up, stand up, and arm themselves. It's possible we would get many coup-de-grace opportunities.



None of this requires any sourcebooks or liberal interpretations of the rules.



Some counters to this plan might be:

The enemy spends all his money on material components for various Glyph of Warding and Fire Trap effects in the fortress. But my summoned creatures and Undead absorb those traps.

The enemy simply kills everyone in town ruthlessly and expects to kill us too. My answer to this is that suddenly we have a town full of Commoners who are also fighting our enemy, and we can use our blitz tactics to focus on individuals and single units while the whole town in engaged.

The enemy decamps and leaves town. We follow and ambush using summoned creatures and Undead until they die. They wouldn't last long even if we ambushed them in a toe to toe fight because we now outnumber them and are equipped just as well.



My counter to someone attempting this would be to burn the town to the ground and leave, keeping my forces in open formation in the wilds near the town such that area effect spells cannot hit more than one man but close enough that they can regroup in one rounds' movement. As stragglers left the town units would coalesce such that they outnumber the group of stragglers at least 5:1 and kill them. Then the units would open again and hide to wait for the next stragglers.

My counter to that counter strategy would simply be to gather whatever Commoners wanted to join us and flee, keeping the conscripts together. Once we got out of town I'd have a Bard or Wizard lieutennant perform a Detect Thoughts on the group, telling them to voluntarily fail their Will saves. Anyone who saved would be allowed to escape with misinformation as to our plans. Then we'd shadow the enemy waiting for the next good opportunity to attack (when the terrain, weather, and timing completely favored us).




This whole plan works poorly when the asymmetrical captain doesn't have the support of the people. If the people are neutral and self-interested, unaligned with either side, it's possible to succeed. But if the enemy effectively has a Commoner spy on every street corner and a Commoner craftsman in every home making clothing and food, suddenly his resources vastly outnumber mine.

elliott20
2008-11-26, 11:17 PM
as creative as Tippy's write ups are. Oh my god the image in my head just looks so silly I don't think I can possibly take that game seriously.

"okay men, just run through the BOOM TUBE OF POWER and rush in!"

Doomsy
2008-11-27, 12:20 AM
as creative as Tippy's write ups are. Oh my god the image in my head just looks so silly I don't think I can possibly take that game seriously.

"okay men, just run through the BOOM TUBE OF POWER and rush in!"

"All right gentlemen. The plan is to rush the boom tube, then use your jump rings to fly over the green gate and blitz the enemies commander. Do not use your potions of bulls strength until he has died once and then comes back five times as large, blinking red, and a lich."

elliott20
2008-11-27, 12:43 AM
"oh yeah, incidentally, I hope you all have your contingency rings prepped because I'm pretty sure half of you are going to die at the hands of some awesomely powerful level 20 wizard... who is, by the way, just an infantry man."

Zen Master
2008-11-27, 04:23 AM
A thing about how the rules are written. You get gold for levelling.

This is silly in the most basic way possible. Wealth by level means that you can make money way, way faster by getting experience from killing stuff, than by applying your hand to an honest trade, like carpentry.

Now, you may argue that this is well and good, and as it should be - but it begs the question: Where does the gold come from. See, any and all economies need production to generate wealth. This leads to two problems: First, the fastest, most profitable career one can chose produces nothing, and the gold one earns from this career apparently just materializes. Second, as near as I can tell, no economy based on the expected incomes of commoners from the DMG can generate the wealth player classes get from their levels. Basically, when you kill a monster, the treasure has to come from somewhere - but the world economy would be extremely hard pressed to generate the wealth required.

Where I'm going with all this is: For all the neat tricks the optimizers wanna pull, you need gold. Now, going by wealth by level, Rules As Written and all that, it may all make a certain kind of sense. But if, instead, you:

Multiply the number of commoners in the kingdom with their mean expected income.

Then subtract their expected living expenses.

Pay half the remainder in taxes.

Subtract the cost of maintaining the kingdom - roads, bridges, wages for non-productive soldiers and the like.

You end up with .... very little gold for creating enormous amounts of scrolls, rings, traps, as well as hiring wizards, fighters and clerics.

This is all an exercise in futility. It's an interesting experiment to wonder at what war would be like if no other limiting factors exist. But basically, the untrained conscript with a sharp stick wins wars.

jcsw
2008-11-27, 04:40 AM
It doesn't materialize, you're supposed to get it from the monsters. Also, this is one of the few rules which clearly and specifically states it's just a guideline.

(But for fun, lets take your logic to the extreme! You can use as many expendables as you want! Because your total wealth WILL ALWAYS STAY CONSTANT AT YOUR LEVEL)

Zen Master
2008-11-27, 05:04 AM
It doesn't materialize, you're supposed to get it from the monsters. Also, this is one of the few rules which clearly and specifically states it's just a guideline.

(But for fun, lets take your logic to the extreme! You can use as many expendables as you want! Because your total wealth WILL ALWAYS STAY CONSTANT AT YOUR LEVEL)

I'm well aware it's supposedly taken from monsters. But where, I ask you, do the monsters get it? Because, I hope we can safely agree that the beholder didn't make it's hoard on its own.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is really nowhere the gold could be coming from.

So, to elaborate: When someone on these boards use WBL as a guideline for what can possibly be financed by a few level 6 characters, I argue that logically, there is no one to generate that wealth, because everyone who should be productive is out levelling, because more money can be made that way - except of course, without anyone to be productive, no wealth is available anywhere.

But please - my argument isn't for you. You're one of the other guys. Stick with WBL - it sounds much more like your kind of thing. Me, I'm a sceptic, I need to question the rules as written, the world as portrayed in the news, and all things under the sun.

BobVosh
2008-11-27, 06:36 AM
Leveling is faster to make money IF you are an adventurer.
Adventurers are not suppose to be kick a can down a street and hit one. This isn't due to profitability or anything else. Usually explained as a spark or something. However, even if it is, it is more profitable to run drugs/guns/whatever. People don't do it because it is also more dangerous. Still happens, but rare.

Excluding this as well, wealth had to come somewhere for there to be an economy. So if you look closer, you will see that yes peasents earn crap compared to adventurers. Compared to serfs in medieval time they are rich. Moreover these merchants are richer still. A single +1 weapon is worth more than an average peasants life of usable service. Well, about the same. Assuming 1 gold a week, for 30 years (age 12-42) is 1560. MW is 300, +1 is 1000. So 260 gold more for a sword than peasant in 30 years.

Since these merchants have quite a few of these weapons, these could reasonably retire on a net sale of two weapons in the black. Therefore gold must be being burnt somewhere. Inexplicably gone. Something that use 1000s of gold quickly, would have high demand, also could be used to give out as wealth. Magic Items. Stuff like wands, potions, and scrolls will burn money quickly and disappear.

As for replinishing it. Some spells create gold, some let you take it from elsewhere (plane shift, etc), and I'm sure something can duplicate it. So it is constantly being created, destroyed, and transportted. Sounds similiar to inflation, deflation, and importing/exporting doesn't it? Also don't forget that the heavens and hells are infinite. So infinite resources exist there for the taking.

I'm not economics major, nor that well versed in it. Feel free to pick this part.


But please - my argument isn't for you. You're one of the other guys. Stick with WBL - it sounds much more like your kind of thing. Me, I'm a sceptic, I need to question the rules as written, the world as portrayed in the news, and all things under the sun.
That is incrediably condescending dude.

weenie
2008-11-27, 07:53 AM
The thing is, that in E6 there are no spells that create gold. The only create spells in the whole game are create water and create food and water. And peasants don't produce gold. They produce food, lumber and other stuff worth 1 gold/week. And when they sell it, they don't just hoard the whole thing up until they can buy a wand of fireball, they have living expenses, must buy wagons, horses, plows and all the other things, that also make money "disappear". You don't buy a horse and ride it all your life, it'll die sooner or later and you'll need a new one.

I strongly agree with what Acromos wrote so far. D&D economy should not work on WBL. While it's normal that higher level characters earn more money, it does not mean, that a band of low level farmers can't hit jackpot by robbing the right people at the right time. Or that every orc lair a high level PC steps into has to have a 10k GP horde hidden somewhere around.

As to producing a +1 sword, it would have a market price of 2315 GP and would cost a bit over 1150 GP and 90 XP to craft. Now in a world where a farmer can produce 2k worth of raw materials over the course of his life, who exactly is going to buy this thing? A +1 sword would be a big expense ever for a wealthy nobleman, and you would have to be a prince or king to afford a +2 sword. And in both cases you wouldn't buy it for its practical qualities, but for the reason people today buy fancy sport cars - it's a status symbol.

EDIT:
As for the buff traps, that would be a very good idea if it was affordable, but with the wealth levels in E6 it would make much more sense to get your troops more basic, mundane stuff, such as weapons and food. Even proper armor is something only the rich can afford, and I'm talking about scale mail, not full plate.

Zen Master
2008-11-27, 07:59 AM
That is incrediably condescending dude.

I'm sorry you feel that way, that is in no way intended.

I'm trying to say that it's in my nature to question everything. In this case, the sense and logic of the wealth by level system. You however, defend it, and that's fine. My point is, we don't have to agree on this.

My choice of words may have been poor. Sorry - I did not at all mean to be condescending.

Zen Master
2008-11-27, 08:11 AM
Leveling is faster to make money IF you are an adventurer.
Adventurers are not suppose to be kick a can down a street and hit one. This isn't due to profitability or anything else. Usually explained as a spark or something. However, even if it is, it is more profitable to run drugs/guns/whatever. People don't do it because it is also more dangerous. Still happens, but rare.

Excluding this as well, wealth had to come somewhere for there to be an economy. So if you look closer, you will see that yes peasents earn crap compared to adventurers. Compared to serfs in medieval time they are rich. Moreover these merchants are richer still. A single +1 weapon is worth more than an average peasants life of usable service. Well, about the same. Assuming 1 gold a week, for 30 years (age 12-42) is 1560. MW is 300, +1 is 1000. So 260 gold more for a sword than peasant in 30 years.

Since these merchants have quite a few of these weapons, these could reasonably retire on a net sale of two weapons in the black. Therefore gold must be being burnt somewhere. Inexplicably gone. Something that use 1000s of gold quickly, would have high demand, also could be used to give out as wealth. Magic Items. Stuff like wands, potions, and scrolls will burn money quickly and disappear.

As for replinishing it. Some spells create gold, some let you take it from elsewhere (plane shift, etc), and I'm sure something can duplicate it. So it is constantly being created, destroyed, and transportted. Sounds similiar to inflation, deflation, and importing/exporting doesn't it? Also don't forget that the heavens and hells are infinite. So infinite resources exist there for the taking.

I'm not economics major, nor that well versed in it. Feel free to pick this part.

Now for the rest of it.

You're missing my point entirely.

What I'm saying is - it's the piss-poor peasants of the world who create pretty much ALL it's wealth. Or more precisely, peasants, crafters, laborers. So to make a long story short, in order for an adventurer to have access to 1500 gold for a +1 sword, that gold needs to have been made by someone elses effort. The wealth needs to have come from somewhere. Work, effort, is converted into value, monetary or otherwise, and no society can create anything for which the wealth isn't present.

Actually, at this point you might want to bring up the pyramids as a counter-argument. But I'll leave that to you.

If all the peasants (and crafters and laborers) combined do not create enough wealth for others to spend on scrolls, traps, wands, rings and the like - then it's not going to be spend on those things. The money simply isn't going to be there, you cannot pay the wizard to scribe the scrolls, it doesn't get done.

Again - the war is instead, in fact, fought by conscrips with sharpened sticks and home-made leather.

Also:


(But for fun, lets take your logic to the extreme! You can use as many expendables as you want! Because your total wealth WILL ALWAYS STAY CONSTANT AT YOUR LEVEL)

That's not taking my logic anywhere. Basically, that has nothing to do with the point I was making.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-27, 09:34 AM
You actually get more gold to spend if you ignore WBL and go with a reasonable tax policy.

Oslecamo
2008-11-27, 09:41 AM
You actually get more gold to spend if you ignore WBL and go with a reasonable tax policy.

And you get even more if you optimize your commoners to the extreme untill they become gold producing machines.

Zen Master
2008-11-27, 09:55 AM
You actually get more gold to spend if you ignore WBL and go with a reasonable tax policy.

I'm not surprised you of all people should make this argument.

In counter, I'll say this. There is nothing to tax. The peasants never have coins of kind, what you get is mainly foodstuffs. Those who earn the occasional penny - carpenters and masons and whatnot - have very little left over to pay as taxes, after their expenses are paid.

Now, it all depends what part of human history we're trying to depict. Or if we even consider the real history as relevant. But to do the things you want to do, in the context of the world you live in being able to supply the economic framework to make it possible, you'd need staggering numbers of dirtpoor farmers and laborers. I mean thousands and thousands. And from each, you'll get a few measly coppers a year, and most of that will go to cover your own running expenses.

Remember, the basic single unit of peasant is never more than a single bad harvest away from starvation and possibly death. They have no funds to give to your magical campaign.

But with all of the above said - you play the game differently than I do. You consider other things to be fun. Which is fine and basis for interesting discussion, but all in all, I maintain that in a world full of magic, wars will still be fought and won by conscripts.

Vexxation
2008-11-27, 11:12 AM
And you get even more if you optimize your commoners to the extreme untill they become gold producing machines.

Skill Focus: (Basketweaving) for the win, eh?

Acromos, you seem to be missing a few key things. That, or you're thoughts about them are simply missing from your explanation.

First, you ask where gold comes from. Simple: Dwarves mine mountains, dwarves find gold. Dwarves have no need for that much gold. However, dwarves need shinnies. They trade gold to magic-users in return for shinnies. Magic user thinks gold is pretty, so he accepts it as a fair deal. Now, Jeb and Hilda come into magic-user's shop. Jeb and Hilda see the gold chunk. They suggest that magic-user could give it to nobleman, who likes things like that. In return, he could get valuables. The trade is made, and now Nobleman has a chunk of gold.

Fast Forward a few decades here. Nobleman's family has long since begun smelting gold to use as currency. The original stores are running low. War looms on the horizon. Now, like any leaders, what does he do? He gets more money. How? Taxation and loans. He talks the dwarves into a loan of gold in return for their pick of shinnies after the bloodshed. He levies a tax on his peasants, including Jeb and Hilda's son, Bean. Unfortunately, on the way back to Nobleman, several prominent tax collectors are ambushed by evil Hobgoblins, who take the gold. Bean, being a young up-and-coming Fighter, sets off to reclaim the gold, and succeeds. Now he has a moral dilemma- the gold didn't belong to those hobgoblins. It belonged to the Nobleman. He could return it, or keep it. One choice profits him, one choice may be the better thing to do.

So, in essence: Gold comes from the ground when it's mined. It then enters the economy and so on, and so forth.

Adventurers find large sums of gold or useful items, yes. But that gold had to come from somewhere. In effect, by adventuring, you are reclaiming somebody else's goods. You just don't tell them, or return it.

bosssmiley
2008-11-27, 11:19 AM
I'm not surprised you of all people should make this argument.

In counter, I'll say this. There is nothing to tax. The peasants never have coins of kind, what you get is mainly foodstuffs. Those who earn the occasional penny - carpenters and masons and whatnot - have very little left over to pay as taxes, after their expenses are paid.

<trim>

Remember, the basic single unit of peasant is never more than a single bad harvest away from starvation and possibly death. They have no funds to give to your magical campaign.

There's always something to tax, you just have to have enough stones and squeeze them hard enough. :smallwink:

To cite a historical example, look at early-modern India. The commons were proverbially poor, but there was still enough wealth being produced even by the inefficient and caste-ridden pre-industrial system that the Moghul Emperor had an annual income 10 times that his contemporary Louis XIV. This was after even after endemic corruption, bribery, fraud and the like had taken their cut (estimated to be anything up to 1/4 of the total) of the tax income. Proverbial wealth on the back of proverbial poverty, temples with golden statues with impoverished commoners offering pennies, the pomp of kings and the huddled masses; sounds a lot like contemporary D&D land to me.

Add to the power/wealth disparities of even E6 D&D the fact that there is likely to be little, if any, option of exit such as existed in 15th century Europe or the 19th century US. You simply can't flee the oppressive taxes and settle the next valley over if said valley is infested with Orcs/Manticores/Shadows. The sorcerer-king can demand 100% taxation and get it because he's the only game in town when the bad guys rear their heads.

People will always find a way to make a living; a clever ruler is one who can skim these streams of wealth without disrupting the flow. :smallwink:

Zen Master
2008-11-27, 11:57 AM
Skill Focus: (Basketweaving) for the win, eh?

Acromos, you seem to be missing a few key things. That, or you're thoughts about them are simply missing from your explanation.

...snip...

Adventurers find large sums of gold or useful items, yes. But that gold had to come from somewhere. In effect, by adventuring, you are reclaiming somebody else's goods. You just don't tell them, or return it.

You assign entirely too much meaning to the mention of the precious metal in question. Gold is in and of it self entirely without value. What I'm talking about is wealth. By todays standard, the middle ages trudged through what was essentially centuries of zero growth.

Gold isn't value. Gold is no different from other things that come from the earth - like potatoes and turnips.

If a given society does not produce the wealth needed to mass produce scrolls - and mind you, please remember that a scroll is a horribly short-lived investment - then scrolls are not going to be mass produced.

Now - what you need to do is either use the pyramids, or try to convince me that the average dirtfarmer is actually richer than I make him out being. In either case, you have a point. But going where you are (you in the plural) is rather pointless, because the logic of my arguments taken within their own frame is fairly solid (until an econmics major happens along).

KnightDisciple
2008-11-27, 12:23 PM
Okay, while I'm sure the discussion of medieval economies, D&D economies, and how crappy life was for people in the Middle Ages, and how D&D should totally be just like that is fun for some, it seems a bit off-course.

Going back to the original basic premise...

I like the proposal someone made a bit back that, instead of just lvl 1 noobs, mix the army up a bit with lvl 1 noobs, lvl 2-3 regulars/vets, lvl 3-4 Lieutenants and such, and 4-6 for higher level commander types. Have a mix of pikemen, archers, cavalry, "footmen" (that is, ground soldiers armed with non-reach melee weapons), all of it supported by strategically placed casters. Cleric medics is good. Bards as strategic buff-bots is a great idea, especially since it doesn't have to be them playing a lute. They could be reciting speeches or the like as well. Or playing a small drum. Note that this makes bards potentially more important than even the clerics, as their buffs affect many people, and can be a tide-turner in a battle. Wizards would probably be better as intel officers, or strategic counter-spellers. Sorcerers and Warmages are light artillery. You'd still want catapults, trebuchets, ballistae, etc. This is all with humans, elves, dwarves, the like. Classes that function similar to the above can be subbed as per desired.

Now, adding in magical or exotic creatures...
Let's go with a good-aligned group for the moment. I don't know exact CRs off the top of my head, but I'll give general ideas.
Giants and large/huge dire animals become the equivalent (roughly) of tanks today. You'll have less of them most likely, so I can see formations based on a single giant or large animal (substituting similar creatures as appropriate for challenge level). Flying mounts give you very mobile cavalry, but you're likely to not have large numbers. I'd see them being a quick response force for hotspots.

If casters are even moderately common, you're likely to see smaller, more spread-out formations, making AOE spells less efficient for the caster. With buffs this works decently, as the lack of sheer numbers can be compensated for with increased ability.

Etc., etc. Sorry if it's a bit confusing, it was just kind of thoughts as they came to me. Theorising on army tactics like this is way better than economics debates. :smallwink:

Vexxation
2008-11-27, 12:31 PM
Now - what you need to do is either use the pyramids, or try to convince me that the average dirtfarmer is actually richer than I make him out being.

Well, if I was in charge of creating a populace, they certainly would be capable of being far richer.

You say commoners are dirt-poor. This is true for those who make a silver piece a day, ie those with zero ranks in a profession skill. However, if we're realistic about the NPCs as characters, it becomes easy to imagine a world that functions with the use of magic items.

Take a level one Human Commoner. 2 feats, plus up to two more flaws. Now, not everyone is flawed, so we'll ignore them. For this to work, we have to assume that every commoner knows how he or she is going to spend their life before they trade their Humanoid Hit Die for a class level.

Now. Your average commoner has 10 intelligence. Commoners get 2+Int per level, as usual x4 for first. So we have 8 skill points to play with. A sane commoner who knows how much an impact their profession will have on their life will invest four ranks in it right then and there. So, we have four ranks in Profession: Basketweaving. Now, we have two feats to select. Our commoner will further focus on Basketweaving through Skill Focus. Total modifier +7. Now, as our commoner has a max of 4 hit points and an average of two or three, I suggest Toughness as the other one. Falling out of trees isn't so deadly any more.

Back to the wealth-generating. Okay, we have a single person with a +7 profession check. This guarantees at least four gold per week, per the Profession rules. On average, we'll roll a ten, giving seventeen, or a total of eight gold that week. That's four hundred gold per year, give or take, and that's from one commoner.

Granted, Basketweaving may not fit into the economy perfectly to net 400 gold each year, but the rules state that you get gold equal to half the check.

Now, not everyone will have an actual level in commoner, most are just a humanoid hit die. However, there will be enough Commoners out there that if specialized, they could drive the economy.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-27, 12:35 PM
Acromos, RAW the wage that an unskilled commoner makes is 1 SP per day. Even after expenses like food they have an extra GP or 2. Taxing them 1 GP per person is one month's salary, which is a reasonable tax rate. With 2 million productive commoners you are looking at 2 million GP in taxes. That's just from the commoners. Skilled labor makes more. The nobles make more. Tarriffs make more. A nation of 3 million can easily bring in 10 million per year in taxes. At 50% of the budget for the military (reasonable for the time period) you are looking at 5 million GP. And traps are a 1 time capital expense. They don't have upkeep.

Oslecamo
2008-11-27, 12:57 PM
And traps are a 1 time capital expense. They don't have upkeep.

Actually, I just noticed this, from the srd trap section:

Short of completely rebuilding the trap, there’s no way to trigger it more than once. Spell traps have no reset element.

So, I think this takes completely down your whole tunnel of instant divinity idea, unless I missed something big.

Saph
2008-11-27, 01:17 PM
Actually, I just noticed this, from the srd trap section:

Short of completely rebuilding the trap, there’s no way to trigger it more than once. Spell traps have no reset element.

So, I think this takes completely down your whole tunnel of instant divinity idea, unless I missed something big.

I don't think it really matters, to be honest. Pretty much everyone who decides to DM E6 does so because they want a lower-magic, more gritty D&D setting . . . so you're never going to get away with the kind of rules abuse Tippy's talking about.

- Saph

Learnedguy
2008-11-27, 01:18 PM
Monks. Thousand and thousands of monks.

(why not?)

Oslecamo
2008-11-27, 01:25 PM
I don't think it really matters, to be honest. Pretty much everyone who decides to DM E6 does so because they want a lower-magic, more gritty D&D setting . . . so you're never going to get away with the kind of rules abuse Tippy's talking about.

- Saph

But that's precisely my point, seeing if it's a real case of rule abuse or simply misreading the rules

You would be wondered with all the "unbalances" that exist just because the players skiped a phrase here or there.

Zenos
2008-11-27, 01:34 PM
Remember, REAL bards play bagpipe. They carry the music a long range, and are perfect for terrifying the enemy. :smalltongue:

Vexxation
2008-11-27, 01:35 PM
Monks. Thousand and thousands of monks.

(why not?)

Why not? Wands are expensive!
*buh-dum-tssshhh*

Yukitsu
2008-11-27, 01:40 PM
Actually, I just noticed this, from the srd trap section:

Short of completely rebuilding the trap, there’s no way to trigger it more than once. Spell traps have no reset element.

So, I think this takes completely down your whole tunnel of instant divinity idea, unless I missed something big.


Table: Cost Modifiers for Magic Device Traps Feature Cost Modifier
Alarm spell used in trigger —
One-Shot Trap
Each spell used in trap +50 gp × caster level × spell level, +4 XP × caster level × spell level
Material components + Cost of all material components
XP components + Total of XP components × 5 gp
Automatic Reset Trap
Each spell used in trap +500 gp × caster level × spell level, +40 XP × caster level × spell level
Material components + Cost of all material components × 100 gp
XP components + Total of XP components × 500 gp

:smallconfused: So what's the automatic reset value calculation for?

Oslecamo
2008-11-27, 01:54 PM
:smallconfused: So what's the automatic reset value calculation for?

And that's probably the big thing I missed. Thanks for pointing it out.

weenie
2008-11-27, 02:18 PM
This economy debate has hijacked the whole thread a bit. What do you say we rather continue discussing warfare in general?

Oh, and also for argument's sake, could we assume that DMs simply do not allow auto-reset buff traps?

Kemper Boyd
2008-11-27, 04:11 PM
Why not? Wands are expensive!
*buh-dum-tssshhh*

"Wands cost money. Use up the monks. The dead cost nothing."

Yukitsu
2008-11-27, 04:12 PM
The dead cost 25 gp per HD.

Oh wait, I mean undead. :smalltongue:

Oslecamo
2008-11-27, 05:23 PM
The dead cost 25 gp per HD.

Oh wait, I mean undead. :smalltongue:

That's for sissies. Just use fell animate spells and raise them for free.

Or get hold of a shaddow or ghoul, and use it to execute criminals, creating moar spawns for your army

Collin152
2008-11-27, 05:26 PM
That's for sissies. Just use fell animate spells and raise them for free.

Or get hold of a shaddow or ghoul, and use it to execute criminals, creating moar spawns for your army

If Death Note has taught us anything, it's that using Dark Magikz to kill criminals will make Bad Stuff happen to you.

Yukitsu
2008-11-27, 05:34 PM
That's for sissies. Just use fell animate spells and raise them for free.

Or get hold of a shaddow or ghoul, and use it to execute criminals, creating moar spawns for your army

That's if the enemy is throwing monks at you. I'm saying it's 25 per HD to use the monk twice. :smalltongue:

The Minx
2008-11-27, 05:42 PM
Fly + Displacement + Wand of Fireballs. Good bye army. Or Explosive Runes.

Err... there are these things called "longbows". And contact poisons if you beef yourself up with DR.

A low level caster can do plenty damage, but destroy an army? :smallconfused:

Satyr
2008-11-27, 06:05 PM
In a medieval environment, warfare is most influenced through supply. Tacitus wrote that armies march on their bellies, and that would be the same in a low magic D&D game. The most important spell by far would be Create Food and Water, because this spell allows that a troop of combatants can act independently without an ongoing direct supply and the masses of people who are required for this transport of goods.
Likewise, communication between different parts of the troops aor even the establishment of a high command, that coordinates the different wings and warbands has a much deeper impact on warfare than direct damage spells; Animal Messenger and Phantom Steed would be among the most praised spells, because they allow a quick communication and scouting. Much more valuable than killing someone.
Additionally, when spellcasters are rare they are an extremely precious ressource (I would guess that the education of a single wizard is much more expensive than the training and equipment of a full company of light infantrymen and will take at least six or seven years), so that it would be very unwise to risk them, which makes it much more attractive to keeep them away from the direct front lines.

Greg
2008-11-27, 06:09 PM
Err... there are these things called "longbows". And contact poisons if you beef yourself up with DR.

A low level caster can do plenty damage, but destroy an army? :smallconfused:
You are clearly unaware of Tippy's reputation. Casters dominate nearly everything at nearly every level. Except housecats.

A wand of Fireball (CL 7) has a range of 680 ft. A wizard flying at this distance from the archers imposes a -12 penalty on attack rolls. This means the archers will probably require a 20 to hit. (5% chance of hitting) The Displacement sticks in a 50% miss chance. So you now have 1 in 40 shots hitting the wizard. This includes touch attacks, mind. 100 archers averaging 2.5 hits, averaging 4.5 points of damage = 11.25 per round. Not ideal for the wizard, considering a 7th level wizard with 12 CON has on average 24.5HP. Means he can take 2 volleys and then drink a potion.

Adding in Protection from Arrows negates your longbows entirely.

Oslecamo
2008-11-27, 06:15 PM
If Death Note has taught us anything, it's that using Dark Magikz to kill criminals will make Bad Stuff happen to you.

So what? If I'm employing undead I'm not exactly a saint, so of course I expect bad things to happen to me. And I make plans to get control of those bad things and use them to get stronger bad things, untill all the bad things are under my control or destroyed, and then march upon whoever is left and conquer the world under my undead boot.

D&D-where being an evil cheesy bastard works.

Yukitsu
2008-11-27, 06:18 PM
When you get an arrow through the chest, please, please, do the speech about how to swim.

Greg
2008-11-27, 06:22 PM
When you get an arrow through the chest, please, please, do the speech about how to swim.
Because drowning heals you?

Collin152
2008-11-27, 06:23 PM
When you get an arrow through the chest, please, please, do the speech about how to swim.

"Water resistance is huge!"

Yukitsu
2008-11-27, 06:24 PM
http://atashi.animeblogger.net/2007/06/death-note-swimming-lessons-the-anime/

weenie
2008-11-27, 06:32 PM
And that's where AA units and aerial units come into play. A big nation shouldn't have more than 10 lvl5+ wizards, and I don't know if risking them like this is a good idea. Sure, they can fireball foot soldiers to death with ease, but when they get grappled by a griffon in mid air, they won't last very long. An elite team of archers with Far Shot and +1 bows can also bring a wizard down fairly easily. And at a distance of 680 ft most rangers won't even have much trouble hiding before firing off another volley, so the wizard won't even be able to retaliate. Also Fly is slow. Once the counterattack begins, the poor wizard is screwed. Not to mention the enemy now has a brand new wand of Fireball!

Or am I missing something here?

The Minx
2008-11-27, 06:35 PM
You are clearly unaware of Tippy's reputation. Casters dominate nearly everything at nearly every level. Except housecats.

A wand of Fireball (CL 7) has a range of 680 ft. A wizard flying at this distance from the archers imposes a -12 penalty on attack rolls. This means the archers will probably require a 20 to hit. (5% chance of hitting) The Displacement sticks in a 50% miss chance. So you now have 1 in 40 shots hitting the wizard. This includes touch attacks, mind. 100 archers averaging 2.5 hits, averaging 4.5 points of damage = 11.25 per round. Not ideal for the wizard, considering a 7th level wizard with 12 CON has on average 24.5HP. Means he can take 2 volleys and then drink a potion.

Adding in Protection from Arrows negates your longbows entirely.

OK... I am pro-wizard (hence the avatar), but this.... Claiming that Wizards can beat anything at any level simply due to being wizards is silly. :smallsmile: At high levels, maybe but L6-7?

I mean, with the design you have there, you can just as easily use a Rogue with wings of flying and UMD. And I specifically mentioned contact poisons in the case of DR buffs, so that negates the Protection from Arrows.

Eskil
2008-11-27, 06:52 PM
Select parts from the army-list from SilverClawShift's Horror Campaign may be relevant to the topic.



The Army

Or should that read "The victims?"

No matter. We're in this now.

The [....] BATTERIES. People who weren't good for much else are going to become dragon shamans. [....] Marshals will be trained the same way. 2nd level marshals don't actually NEED charisma, their major aura functions without it (based on level). Marshal major auras are wonderful things like damage reduction, damage boosts, melee and ranged boosts, and AC boosts. And save boosts. Really, they just freaking boost.
[....] the dragon shaman healing will help keep everyone up and moving) That'll give us: Damage reduction 1/-, +1 to attack in melee AND ranged, +1 AC, +1 Damage from the marshals, and another +1 melee damage, another DR 1/magic, and fast healing 1 (up to half your hitpoints max) from the dragon shamans.
The dragon shaman will ALSO be warlocks. [....] The dragon shaman/warlocks (1/1) will also be reduced :smallamused:. That extra +2 to attack (+2 Dex, +1 attack) means something. They don't need strength anyway, and they'll be harder to hit if it comes up.
Each 8-man team of aura boosters will also have two meat shields with two handed weapons. They will also have a weak healer (better than nothing) who will have the main goal of stabilizing anyone before they die. The dragon shaman healing auras will then pick them back up from the negatives.

[....]

Warlocks, battle sorcerers with sonic orb wands, and clerics with scrolls of useful cleric stuff and some big-gun healing for emergencies. [....] We also want to stick at least one dedicated healer and one dragon shaman with a healing aura in the schoolhouse with the survivors, as an emergency heal-bot area.

[....]
our wizard actually has a wand with a few fireball charges for big groups[....]


The (un)dead cost 25 gp per HD.
Warlock 5/Blood Magus 1
The Dead Walk /Blood Component
No it doesn't.


Now if I could just find a non-class-level reliant source of infinate healing...

Kemper Boyd
2008-11-27, 06:52 PM
A flying wizard with a wand of fireball is a decent tactic for delaying the enemy, but it doesn't really win battles. You can't even stop an enemy from advancing unless you have enough wizards to fill the sky with them.

Greg
2008-11-27, 06:54 PM
Wow, this is quite a load of wank. :smallsmile: I mean, I am pro-wizard (hence the avatar), but this.... Claiming that Wizards can beat anything at any level simply due to being wizards is silly. At high levels, maybe but L6-7?

I mean, with the design you have there, you can just as easily use a Rogue with wings of flying and UMD. And I specifically mentioned contact poisons in the case of DR buffs, so that negates the Protection from Arrows.
The first part was mostly an exaggeration of how Tippy argues - you should see his "logical conclusions" to high-magic setting - they are... terrifying.

That is why Tippy equals win. (add that to your sig, my man. :smalltongue:)

To address your point. Firstly - the Displacement effect provides a 50% miss chance. Secondly - assuming your rogue stands below the wizard while he is blasting troops from max range, it will take him 10 rounds to get to the wizard. Think he/she won't notice and fly back to his own lines? Even if your rogue uses invisibility, he/she is hampered by my third point - wings of flying - 54k, wand of fireball - 13.5k. That means your rogues are outnumbered by potentially 4 wizards. In addition, the rogue has a 5% risk of poisoning himself for each use of poison.

Initially, I was commenting more on your "duh, longbows" more than anything.

Yukitsu
2008-11-27, 06:55 PM
Warlock 5/Blood Magus 1
The Dead Walk /Blood Component
No it doesn't.

Pff. Temp workers. :smalltongue:


Now if I could just find a non-class-level reliant source of infinate healing...

I think binder can do infinite healing at around 5, but don't hold me to that. Other than that, using Tippies traps seems like the only other way to go.

The Minx
2008-11-27, 07:07 PM
The first part was mostly an exaggeration of how Tippy argues - you should see his "logical conclusions" to high-magic setting - they are... terrifying.

That is why Tippy equals win. (add that to your sig, my man. :smalltongue:)

That's "my girl". :smalltongue:

And if I get where you are going: "it is always easy to win an argument if you can make up stuff about what you would have done after your opponent makes his move". :smallsmile:


To address your point. Firstly - the Displacement effect provides a 50% miss chance. Secondly - assuming your rogue stands below the wizard while he is blasting troops from max range, it will take him 10 rounds to get to the wizard. Think he/she won't notice and fly back to his own lines? Even if your rogue uses invisibility, he/she is hampered by my third point - wings of flying - 54k, wand of fireball - 13.5k. That means your rogues are outnumbered by potentially 4 wizards. In addition, the rogue has a 5% risk of poisoning himself for each use of poison.

Initially, I was commenting more on your "duh, longbows" more than anything.

5% is OK, because the Rogue is expendable while the Wizard is not, and the legions of mooks more so. Perhaps there is some feat or other you can use too. If you use poison that causes unconsciousness then it is even less of an issue (and I think I mentioned wings of flying too).

Really, what this boils down to is not a 1-1 combat, but economics. What I'm going for here is the idea of Comparative Advantage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage).

The Wizard can make magic items and use them.
The Rogue can NOT make magic items, but can use them (tolerably well).

So, who gets to make the items and who uses them? Even if the wizard is better one on one than the Rogue, the wise ruler will employ the wizard to make the items and the rogue to use them.

It's like: you don't put engineers and scientists on the front lines simply because they know better than a soldier how the stuff works, even in a setting where they were somehow slightly better at using them. "Ho ho, regular mooks are obsolete, now all armies will consist only of scientists and engineers!" See what I mean? :smallwink:

Eskil
2008-11-27, 07:23 PM
Pff. Temp workers. :smalltongue:

Nooo... not if you use 25gp worth of onyx as a material component, then it works like Animate Dead.
Now Blood Magus gives you Blood Component, which lets you substitute hitpoints for costly material components.

I think binder can do infinite healing at around 5, but don't hold me to that. Other than that, using Tippies traps seems like the only other way to go.
Yes, they can. That is also the level they get unlimited Turn/Rebuke Undead.

Greg
2008-11-27, 07:36 PM
That's "my girl". :smalltongue:
Not directed at you. Tippy is made of win.


And if I get where you are going: "it is always easy to win an argument if you can make up stuff about what you would have done after your opponent makes his move". :smallsmile:
Nature of warfare. Notice how the British aren't the only army to use tanks, even though they were the first. Adaptive tactics are the only way to go.




5% is OK, because the Rogue is expendable while the Wizard is not, and the legions of mooks more so. Perhaps there is some feat or other you can use too.
What about the 54k of cloak? You have a further 5% chance of exposing your rogue to the poison on the attack roll. You could dip in assassin if you wanted to avoid that.



Really, what this boils down to is not a 1-1 combat, but economics. What I'm going for here is the idea of Comparative Advantage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage).

The Wizard can make magic items and use them.
The Rogue can NOT make magic items, but can use them (tolerably well).

So, who gets to make the items and who uses them? Even if the wizard is better one on one than the Rogue, the wise ruler will employ the wizard to make the items and the rogue to use them.
A 5th level wizard can make and use a wand of fireballs and cast displacement, fly and protection from arrows.
You need a 10th level wizard to make your wings of flying.

How much more effort is it to train a 10th level wizard and a rogue (at least level 6, for assassin dip) than to train 4 level 5 wizards? The difference in XP (45000 for 10th level wizard, 15000 for rogue/assassin compared to 4x10000 for 4 5th level wizards) is 20000. Using 1XP = 5gp, we get a cost of 100,000gp more for the cost of your wizard and rogue.



It's like: you don't put engineers and scientists on the front lines simply because they know better than a soldier how the stuff works, even in a setting where they were somehow slightly better at using them. "Ho ho, regular mooks are obsolete, now all armies will consist only of scientists and engineers!" See what I mean? :smallwink:
This isn't real life, this is D&D. I certainly wouldn't run a game with warfare as I just described (at least this wouldn't be the be all and end all - maybe just a way of thinning opposition, an opener or mop up). There are far more cost effective ways of dealing with the flying wizard than you came up with. Giant eagle cavalry being one. Even with the 50% miss chance, the risk of being grappled by a giant eagle is too high to risk casters. You could get 10 giant eagles for the cost of 1 set of wings of flying. You could use them as scouts too.

Truth being told, it was this that got me:

Err... there are these things called "longbows".
It seemed to not quite hit the spot for me. Brute force doesn't appeal. Longbows alone would not be enough.

Triaxx
2008-11-27, 08:04 PM
I prefer a slightly higher power range, so I can use Hulking Hurlers as set pieces.

The Minx
2008-11-27, 08:07 PM
Nature of warfare. Notice how the British aren't the only army to use tanks, even though they were the first. Adaptive tactics are the only way to go.

That's not what I was going for. Saying a Wizard always wins because he can do X and saying this after someone else has explained how a specific wizard is taken out is cheating. :smallwink:


You have a further 5% chance of exposing your rogue to the poison on the attack roll. You could dip in assassin if you wanted to avoid that.

What about it? :smallconfused: We have both explained why it is unimportant.


A 5th level wizard can make and use a wand of fireballs and cast displacement, fly and protection from arrows.
You need a 10th level wizard to make your wings of flying.

Fair enough, a better solution would be to use Wands of Whatever and UMD. Or simply flying creatures.


How much more effort is it to train a 10th level wizard and a rogue (at least level 6, for assassin dip) than to train 4 level 5 wizards? The difference in XP (45000 for 10th level wizard, 15000 for rogue/assassin compared to 4x10000 for 4 5th level wizards) is 20000. Using 1XP = 5gp, we get a cost of 100,000gp more for the cost of your wizard and rogue.

And he can do a hell of a lot more than just Wings of Flying, though he is illegal by the OP. So, Wands of Whatever make more sense.


This isn't real life, this is D&D.

Unimportant, since the comparison is still valid. :smallsmile: You don't use your wizards in the front lines, that's what minions are for.


I certainly wouldn't run a game with warfare as I just described (at least this wouldn't be the be all and end all - maybe just a way of thinning opposition, an opener or mop up). There are far more cost effective ways of dealing with the flying wizard than you came up with. Giant eagle cavalry being one. Even with the 50% miss chance, the risk of being grappled by a giant eagle is too high to risk casters. You could get 10 giant eagles for the cost of 1 set of wings of flying. You could use them as scouts too.

This only reinforces my point. :smalltongue:

I was not trying to bring up the most cost effective way of dealing with a flying wizard at all: only saying that basing an army around such guys was not a good idea.


Truth being told, it was this that got me:

It seemed to not quite hit the spot for me. Brute force doesn't appeal. Longbows alone would not be enough.

Brute force does not appeal to me either, it was merely to throw out a bone and to point out that, yes, mooks can endanger a low level wizard and thus you don't use him as a front liner.

Yukitsu
2008-11-27, 09:57 PM
Nooo... not if you use 25gp worth of onyx as a material component, then it works like Animate Dead.
Now Blood Magus gives you Blood Component, which lets you substitute hitpoints for costly material components.


Checked. Still have to pay expensive components above 1 gp.

elliott20
2008-11-27, 10:38 PM
wait, we're now ignoring the effects of economy on warfare? are we going to also ignore the effects of cardiovascular health when evaluating an athlete's performance too?

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-27, 10:56 PM
And that's where AA units and aerial units come into play. A big nation shouldn't have more than 10 lvl5+ wizards, and I don't know if risking them like this is a good idea. Sure, they can fireball foot soldiers to death with ease, but when they get grappled by a griffon in mid air, they won't last very long. An elite team of archers with Far Shot and +1 bows can also bring a wizard down fairly easily. And at a distance of 680 ft most rangers won't even have much trouble hiding before firing off another volley, so the wizard won't even be able to retaliate. Also Fly is slow. Once the counterattack begins, the poor wizard is screwed. Not to mention the enemy now has a brand new wand of Fireball!

Or am I missing something here?

Why not? Two people beating on each other with their fists will each, on average, gain a level every 2 days. They will reach level 5 in 10 days of training.

A level 1 wizard is an equal CR challenge for 4 level 1 characters. 3 fights between two level 1 wizards is enough to level 1 of them.


wait, we're now ignoring the effects of economy on warfare? are we going to also ignore the effects of cardiovascular health when evaluating an athlete's performance too?

Yeah, economics are the single most important factor in warfare.

They control logistics. And whoever win's the logistics battle wins the war.

Doomsy
2008-11-27, 10:59 PM
Why not? Two people beating on each other with their fists will each, on average, gain a level every 2 days. They will reach level 5 in 10 days of training.

A level 1 wizard is an equal CR challenge for 4 level 1 characters. 3 fights between two level 1 wizards is enough to level 1 of them.



Yeah, economics are the single most important factor in warfare.

They control logistics. And whoever win's the logistics battle wins the war.


Good Lord I need to see what a Tippy-created D&D universe looks like. A vast bloody plain of never-ending Fight Club with mages flying overhead in insane epic death matches and occasionally dropping supplies for the sheer malicious thrill of it is the closest my mind can come to encompassing it.

elliott20
2008-11-27, 11:10 PM
well, the short version is, life is pretty meaningless for you if you're not a wizard. actually, life is pretty meaningless regardless because all aspects of life are so tightly controlled by powerful wizards that while you'll have no want, no sickness, etc, you also have really, nothing to do. Once all the infrastructure is set up in the Tippyverse, there is no such thing as working to survive, as all the magical facilities can keep you alive quite easily.

this doesn't mean that the economy stops functioning, but that it changes in ways that quite frankly I don't think we are capable of fully grasping.

Vexxation
2008-11-27, 11:25 PM
this doesn't mean that the economy stops functioning, but that it changes in ways that quite frankly I don't think we are capable of fully grasping.

Ideally, you reach a commonwealth status. Everyone is doing their part, and everyone is a happy individual. Since nobody needs to do the old labor jobs, everyone becomes a scholar, or an artist, or an athlete. As time progresses, these fields get so advanced that they exceed current standards... and then? There's no way to accurately tell.

I figure that before that point is reached, the empire collapses due to DM fiat natural causes.

Yukitsu
2008-11-27, 11:27 PM
My caster that went over the top powerful went the Andrew Ryan method of utopia, but made sure to kill off the non-caster problem before it became a real problem.

Doomsy
2008-11-27, 11:30 PM
I can't even imagine a commonwealth status. We're dealing with a society with Tippy-esque mages at the top making war upon each other, the gods, and finding other ways to entertain themselves while the common folk either cower in fear or beat each other to death in a desperate attempt to gain levels, perhaps for the amusement of their arcane gods. Reality itself creaks at the seams. Somewhere, a distant overlord diety sobs and wonders where the plan went so wrong as the most powerful of the wizards plots on how to kill something that has no stats.

elliott20
2008-11-27, 11:34 PM
yep, fellows, that's pretty much what happens. It becomes a Mary-Suetopia.

Vexxation
2008-11-27, 11:36 PM
as the most powerful of the wizards plots on how to kill something that has no stats.

Well, simple. Alter Reality it out of existence. If it has no stats, it has no way of combating Alter Reality. HAH!

But you're right. In a Tippy-topia, the universe has maybe ten years before every feasible threat is eliminated wholly, and the meaning of life dissolves into nothingness.

Doomsy
2008-11-27, 11:46 PM
You know, this might make a half-decent setting for something apocalyptic in a strange new way.

Collin152
2008-11-27, 11:57 PM
Well, simple. Alter Reality it out of existence. If it has no stats, it has no way of combating Alter Reality. HAH!

But you're right. In a Tippy-topia, the universe has maybe ten years before every feasible threat is eliminated wholly, and the meaning of life dissolves into nothingness.

The threat of lacking threats is itself a challenge to be overcome, thus perpetuating the existance of threats to advance your own power.

elliott20
2008-11-27, 11:59 PM
well, there is one particular problem with the tippy-verse, of course. It ignores the human nature itself. people will always want more or want something different. Consequentially, there will always be someone who is trying to buck the trends and essentially try to break the tippy-topia. tippy's answer to that so far? mostly a variety of applying mind rape in creative ways.

the thing is though, he will never be done mind raping people because there's always going to be another person discontent with the fact that he has essentially no power to change his reality or live in a way that he would want. After all, his way of life has already been prescribed by the powerful wizards the moment he was born.

Yukitsu
2008-11-28, 12:00 AM
The solution of that is to mind rape a generation of wizards with very limited spell books such that they constantly mind rape everyone else into contented subservience.

Doomsy
2008-11-28, 12:02 AM
well, there is one particular problem with the tippy-verse, of course. It ignores the human nature itself. people will always want more or want something different. Consequentially, there will always be someone who is trying to buck the trends and essentially try to break the tippy-topia. tippy's answer to that so far? mostly a variety of applying mind rape in creative ways.

the thing is though, he will never be done mind raping people because there's always going to be another person discontent with the fact that he has essentially no power to change his reality or live in a way that he would want. After all, his way of life has already been prescribed by the powerful wizards the moment he was born.

That is the awesome part. You'd basically have wizards playing insane Thirty Xanatos Pile-Up constantly as they mind-rape or suspect of being mind-raped, and rapidly degenerating into hating each other or being paranoid.

Then they start wiping out schools of arcane knowledge to prevent other mages from getting the drop on them. Entire spells and schools of magic start disappearing.

Eventually, you end up with either a few constant warring at the top and a magic-limited society below, or reality fall down go boom. And any wizard trying to go up gets nuked from above as a potential threat, since bigger wizard beats smaller wizard.

Wow. So that's how you flip over the swingset and turn a Tippy setting into a low magic setting.

elliott20
2008-11-28, 12:07 AM
basically, allow the society to eventually implode upon itself.

of course, tippy's other argument by this point is that these are all int 50 wizards with untold amount of foresight into the future and human nature, which means that they are by extension people who would be above such issues like paranoia, etc.

and admittedly, it's really hard to quantify this statement as we don't really know anyone who can reasonably say he has a 50 int. and without the ability to see the future we can't really figure out the relationship of two 50 int individuals, let alone an entire society of them.

BobVosh
2008-11-28, 01:35 AM
the thing is though, he will never be done mind raping people because there's always going to be another person discontent with the fact that he has essentially no power to change his reality or live in a way that he would want. After all, his way of life has already been prescribed by the powerful wizards the moment he was born.

And this is different than the gods of the setting currently...how? Before any possible comment of "they are different, they are gods" I would like to point out gods can be created, simply by having people like ya lots. So mindrape should be able to do this.


That is the awesome part. You'd basically have wizards playing insane Thirty Xanatos Pile-Up constantly as they mind-rape or suspect of being mind-raped, and rapidly degenerating into hating each other or being paranoid.

Then they start wiping out schools of arcane knowledge to prevent other mages from getting the drop on them. Entire spells and schools of magic start disappearing.

Eventually, you end up with either a few constant warring at the top and a magic-limited society below, or reality fall down go boom. And any wizard trying to go up gets nuked from above as a potential threat, since bigger wizard beats smaller wizard.

Wow. So that's how you flip over the swingset and turn a Tippy setting into a low magic setting.

Except noone will be paranoid, noone will hate. All will be mind raped into perfect mindraping Tippy-clones. It would be utopia and a golden age of enlightenment as far as spells are concerned.

elliott20
2008-11-28, 01:42 AM
the fact that said wizards are probably the closest thing to a deity does not mean that the people will be perfectly happy with how they run their life. the wizards are, for all intensive purposes, still treating those he rules over like little lab rats. yeah, some people will not care, but there are also going to be people who will want to fight the system... until the latest version of mind rape kicks in.

this, of course, is starting to sound increasingly like an Orwellian 1984 society.

Yukitsu
2008-11-28, 01:45 AM
Yeah, I went for the diviner variant, as opposed to the enchanter variant.

Figure out what I had to do or say to get civilization as a whole to do exactly what I wanted, while simultaneously giving the populous "free choice."

Collin152
2008-11-28, 01:46 AM
intensive purposes

"Intents and", dear.

I would like to enforce the idea, however, that Mindrape conquers all.

Yukitsu
2008-11-28, 01:46 AM
Pff. Brute. :smallwink:

Doomsy
2008-11-28, 01:47 AM
Ah, you went the God Emperor Leto II route. Good way to wreck magic entirely, as you can predict where it will emerge and maybe eventually even breed magic-invisible humans, immune to your omniscient sight.

Yukitsu
2008-11-28, 01:50 AM
Why would I do that? :smallconfused: For someone trying to control everything via divinations, that seems an aweful daft thing to do.

Collin152
2008-11-28, 01:50 AM
Ah, you went the God Emperor Leto II route. Good way to wreck magic entirely, as you can predict where it will emerge and maybe eventually even breed magic-invisible humans, immune to your omniscient sight.

Natural Selection implies that I'm not controlling who is breeding with whom. This is an issue.

elliott20
2008-11-28, 02:01 AM
damn mind rape, it's basically the "win all arguments" button which makes it utterly retarded as a game ability.

to be quite honest, once you get a certain point towards tippyverse, I fail to see a reason to even bother procreating. Humanity could probably cheat death indefinitely, and chances are, all human beings born would probably have the ability to reproduce taken from them. (though, not necessarily the ability to TRY)

BobVosh
2008-11-28, 02:06 AM
the fact that said wizards are probably the closest thing to a deity does not mean that the people will be perfectly happy with how they run their life. the wizards are, for all intensive purposes, still treating those he rules over like little lab rats. yeah, some people will not care, but there are also going to be people who will want to fight the system... until the latest version of mind rape kicks in.

this, of course, is starting to sound increasingly like an Orwellian 1984 society.

That is what I tried for when I thought about it.

Also Paranoia.

Trust the Friend-Tippy Wizard. Antimagic Field is treason. Counterspell sorcerers are treason. The Friend-Tippy Wizard is your friend. Trust the Friend-Tippy Wizard.

Quoting this is treason. Proceed to the nearest execution room. Have a nice day, Citizen.

elliott20
2008-11-28, 02:16 AM
friend tippy wizard is watching... oh yes, even when you're on the john, he's watching. friend tippy wizard is a pervert like that.

Greg
2008-11-28, 02:55 AM
That's not what I was going for. Saying a Wizard always wins because he can do X and saying this after someone else has explained how a specific wizard is taken out is cheating. :smallwink:
Wrong. In war number 1, side A uses a wizard and side B loses. In war number 2, side B uses a rogue, kills the wizard and wins. In war 3, the wizards avoid the rogue and just strafe. Warfare is constantly fluid, and so tactics will change in wars. If we're talking about war number N, where N is a large number, then it could be assumed that there is some form of equilibrium between the two sides.


What about it? :smallconfused: We have both explained why it is unimportant.
The 5% on use is relevant, as it causes you to potentially lose 54k of magic cloak.


Fair enough, a better solution would be to use Wands of Whatever and UMD. Or simply flying creatures.
Which is not what you initially said. :smalltongue: Assume this is war 4. You're allowed to adapt tactics too.


And he can do a hell of a lot more than just Wings of Flying, though he is illegal by the OP. So, Wands of Whatever make more sense.
Your point? The wizard doesn't need wands for everything. In peacetime, the wizard can make more wands and stuff as well as the ones he would use.


Unimportant, since the comparison is still valid. :smallsmile: You don't use your wizards in the front lines, that's what minions are for.
Your wizards win the battle. Your army is for holding conquered lands.


This only reinforces my point. :smalltongue:

I was not trying to bring up the most cost effective way of dealing with a flying wizard at all: only saying that basing an army around such guys was not a good idea.
I only ever said it was a valid stratagem when dealing with standard longbowmen. I never said I'd base an army around them. Just that, statistically, the wizard would get 3 rounds worth of attacking in before he died or had to heal. 3 fireballs could do a lot of damage, depending on the troops.

In any case, flying wizards who are invisible flying to the enemy HQ and setting it on fire is more appealing to me. Avoids retribution and sends the army into disarray.


Brute force does not appeal to me either, it was merely to throw out a bone and to point out that, yes, mooks can endanger a low level wizard and thus you don't use him as a front liner.
This is D&D, after all - anything can happen in terms of dice.

It all boils down to the setting - if you have lots of wizards, the tactic is (fairly) valid. If you don't, it isn't.

Zen Master
2008-11-28, 03:29 AM
Acromos, RAW the wage that an unskilled commoner makes is 1 SP per day. Even after expenses like food they have an extra GP or 2. Taxing them 1 GP per person is one month's salary, which is a reasonable tax rate. With 2 million productive commoners you are looking at 2 million GP in taxes. That's just from the commoners. Skilled labor makes more. The nobles make more. Tarriffs make more. A nation of 3 million can easily bring in 10 million per year in taxes. At 50% of the budget for the military (reasonable for the time period) you are looking at 5 million GP. And traps are a 1 time capital expense. They don't have upkeep.

ALL of this is opinion - yours, not mine. And of course, when I maintain the typical dirtfarmer is so pisspoor he's unlikely to even see a goldpiece his entire life, that too is opinion. Mine, not yours.

Also ...

Yea, some people make more wages than peasants. They are rare - lets say 20% of the population lives in cities, tops. They make more money, but have far greater expenses too. Nobles don't pay taxes, they collect them. Their contribution to the crown is in troops, and regional control.

So your 20% of the population who actually make *money* rather than turnips are only ones contributing gold to your economy, and in no where near the amounts you like to imagine.

Now, for the sake of the example, lets say you get one million gold in taxes - a number I consider totally over the top, I doubt any king in history up until the sunkings of France had anything resembling that amount, ever. By your estimate, half goes to military. Ok - I doubt that as well, but lets roll with it. 500k gold for training, upkeep, maintainance of buildings, weapons, armor, stables, horses, as well as wages for soldiers, cooks, smiths, stablemasters - not to mention various fortifications, ships, wagons.

But the thing is ... I imagine the very, very greatest majority of the population to be so horrendously poor, there just isn't wealth in society to do what you want to do.

The way I hear you, you imagine the peasants as a reasonably well-to-do middle class, who make enough profits to set a few silvers aside each month.

Clearly, there is a difference per capita of a few silvers a month - from my absolute zero to your 'a few' - which could be taxed and fund your trap-making scheme.

Now ... opinion again. If what it takes to be rid of the trap-makink scheme is to keep all peasants in the most abject poverty, bordering on starvation - that's a price I'd gladly pay, to have my campaigns cheese-free.

elliott20
2008-11-28, 03:48 AM
actually, Tippy's math, while fine, ignores another problem, and that is economic inefficiencies, which I'm sorry, but as long as you have more than a handful of human being involved, you're going to have that come up as an issue.

just taxing your populace and creating an infrastructure to handle that kind of wealth alone will cost you a pretty penny. Let's not forget that corruption eats away at that too. Even if corruption is not a common social trait, inefficiency will still be at some level.

and let's not forget Acromos main point in his last post: currency. most farmers probably do not generate wealth in the form of monetary currency. If they did, fine. But if not? well, then you're going to incur further costs for changing that wealth into a form that you can easily use and liquidate.

so okay, after all is said and done, you now have a big bundle of cash. time to spend it. you start building your infrastructure. Do you have the man power to do so? do you have the magical manpower necessary to enchant the number of items you need? do you have the level of management infrastructure to coordinate this project? let's not forget that no project, no matter how well you plan it, can ever go without problems. Anyone who has ever managed a project of considerable size knows this. Things take time, take money, take discipline, and most of the time, you will still have delays, shortfalls, and problems. So, realistically, creating the infrastructure to support this will be another undertaking, and one that potentially would eat up a large portion of your budget. (after all, wizards don't work for free, not without the beloved mind rape or dominate person, at least)

so you've built all that magical infrastructure, now you need to man them and train people to man them. Again, costs for training the people, costs for hiring them, etc.

basically, this kind of effort will incur a fairly significant overhead.

Having said that, ONCE you've have all of this implemented, it would be quite a force to content with. But still, if it was THAT easy for one nation to do it, why wouldn't another nation do it too?

Zen Master
2008-11-28, 03:51 AM
and let's not forget Acromos main point in his last post: currency. most farmers probably do not generate wealth in the form of monetary currency. If they did, fine. But if not? well, then you're going to incur further costs for changing that wealth into a form that you can easily use and liquidate.

Indeed. And while gold lasts, turnips transmute into compost over time. And while compost is indeed useful, it's worth a lot less than turnips.

weenie
2008-11-28, 04:57 AM
Why not? Two people beating on each other with their fists will each, on average, gain a level every 2 days. They will reach level 5 in 10 days of training.

A level 1 wizard is an equal CR challenge for 4 level 1 characters. 3 fights between two level 1 wizards is enough to level 1 of them.

Yeah, economics are the single most important factor in warfare.

They control logistics. And whoever win's the logistics battle wins the war.

Unless it's a battle to the death, they couldn't get full XP from such fights. Also I was always of the opinion, that NPCs should use other criteria for leveling up. Like time spent researching old tomes and trying to understand a new spell etc. A PC wizard could level up by killing something with a bow, but that's kinda absurd with a more realistic approach. Out of 100 wizards only 10 would have the determination and ability to make it to level 5. And just making 100 wizards lvl1 takes years of study, good mentors and lots of costly material components. More high level wizards could still be "produced", but that would mean having less resources for other things and it's never safe to bet it all on one horse.

elliott20
2008-11-28, 05:02 AM
well, technically, that just means it takes little bit longer since non-lethal fights are 50% xp....

Satyr
2008-11-28, 05:08 AM
The infrastructure part is really important. And, you do not only need a physical, material infrastructure that allows you to move goods, you also needs a social infrastructure which is able to support your rule. You need to muster troops, you need training and education for these troops (or at least the commanders of these troops), and even more so for any kind of specialists, especially spellcasters. You need administration, tax collectors, representatives of authority who uphold the status quo, etc. To collect taxes, you need people who are used and wiling to pay them, which may seem a matter of course today, but is a very modern and recent development.
Both forms of infrastructure will eat up money and ressources, not only for a consequent further development (which might be necessary) but also just for the maintenance of the system.
If you can get 5% of the collected taxes as a net gain, after corruption, inefficiency, plain failures and maintenance costs are paid, you are either a greedy tyrant who exploits his subjects or a miser. Both is not good for the stability of your system.

This leads to the next problem: If you want or need to take part in any activities that require higher investments than usual, you need to loan money. Which means that you not only have to come up for the usual costs, but also for the repayment of the loan and the interests on it,which will eventually force you to loan money again to pay your first donorö.

This means that if you go to war, you have to win. When you win a war, you can collect tributes, so the whole war becomes cost-effective again, because your beaten opponent is going to pay your loans and many other expands. If you lose it, look above, but add the problem of paying the tributes.

If you were unlucky and most of the fighting took place in your territory, or just even the armies passed through it, than you will also have to rebuild the infrastructure in the devastated areas (in German, the word for ravaged land, verheeren derives from Heer, what means army) after farms and hamlets were plundered and pillaged and the people were killed raped or driven into migration. which also means that you have camps of refugees all over your lands which do not really contribute to the economy but still need shelter and food.

Besides, in a society where almost the complete economy is based on agrarian production, one sommer with bad weather means poverty, starvation and crisis. Two or more crop failures, and the social system destabilises and you have to deal with revolts and brigantry. There is little to no planning security in this.

The idea, that you have money laying around to finance fancy magical items and wizard death squads is not really feasible once you introduce versimilitude to the game.

elliott20
2008-11-28, 05:16 AM
The infrastructure part is really important. And, you do not only need a physical, material infrastructure that allows you to move goods, you also needs a social infrastructure which is able to support your rule. You need to muster troops, you need training and education for these troops (or at least the commanders of these troops), and even more so for any kind of specialists, especially spellcasters. You need administration, tax collectors, representatives of authority who uphold the status quo, etc. To collect taxes, you need people who are used and wiling to pay them, which may seem a matter of course today, but is a very modern and recent development.
Both forms of infrastructure will eat up money and ressources, not only for a consequent further development (which might be necessary) but also just for the maintenance of the system.
If you can get 5% of the collected taxes as a net gain, after corruption, inefficiency, plain failures and maintenance costs are paid, you are either a greedy tyrant who exploits his subjects or a miser. Both is not good for the stability of your system.

This leads to the next problem: If you want or need to take part in any activities that require higher investments than usual, you need to loan money. Which means that you not only have to come up for the usual costs, but also for the repayment of the loan and the interests on it,which will eventually force you to loan money again to pay your first donorö.

This means that if you go to war, you have to win. When you win a war, you can collect tributes, so the whole war becomes cost-effective again, because your beaten opponent is going to pay your loans and many other expands. If you lose it, look above, but add the problem of paying the tributes.

If you were unlucky and most of the fighting took place in your territory, or just even the armies passed through it, than you will also have to rebuild the infrastructure in the devastated areas (in German, the word for ravaged land, verheeren derives from Heer, what means army) after farms and hamlets were plundered and pillaged and the people were killed raped or driven into migration. which also means that you have camps of refugees all over your lands which do not really contribute to the economy but still need shelter and food.

Besides, in a society where almost the complete economy is based on agrarian production, one sommer with bad weather means poverty, starvation and crisis. Two or more crop failures, and the social system destabilises and you have to deal with revolts and brigantry. There is little to no planning security in this.

The idea, that you have money laying around to finance fancy magical items and wizard death squads is not really feasible once you introduce versimilitude to the game.
ahh yes, this is precisely what I was getting at. Once you get to a large enough level of economics to handle, you're not just crunching numbers anymore, you're dealing with logistics, inefficiencies, and all sorts of other issues.

suddenly, magical warfare, while still awesome, is not as absolute as it previously seemed.

Greg
2008-11-28, 08:52 AM
The idea, that you have money laying around to finance fancy magical items and wizard death squads is not really feasible once you introduce versimilitude to the game.
True, depending on the rulers involved. It may be instead that war becomes too expensive to fight properly, so nobody does it any more.

mangosta71
2008-11-28, 11:18 AM
In the archers vs single wizard debate, you guys are completely missing the volley rules from Complete Warrior (which has a nice section on fantasy warfare, individuals acting as units, and more). Hundred archers put arrows in every square foot of an area. If a single attack roll hits, they come down right where the commander wants them. And even if they miss, the spot that the wizard is in may still be affected if it's inside the effect radius after applying the scatter rules. Whether the wizard has a displacement effect up is irrelevant - if he's in the area of effect, he has to make a reflex save, and he still takes half damage if he succeeds. If the arrows are poisoned, there's an even greater chance that a single volley downs him. Using an injury poison instead of a contact poison vastly reduces the chance that any of the archers are taken out of commission by attempting to use it.

Also of note - if one side has a wizard that can cast fly, and displacement, and protection from arrows, and whatever else, the other side probably has access to a wizard that can cast dispel magic.

Yukitsu
2008-11-28, 11:21 AM
Volley fire hits each target with one arrow, so you can do half arrow damage and save vs. poison once every round, at the cost of something like 3000 GP per volley.

Yahzi
2008-11-28, 11:58 AM
To collect taxes, you need people who are used and wiling to pay them, which may seem a matter of course today, but is a very modern and recent development.
What? Taxes are as old as lawyers. Even the Greeks complained about them.


If you can get 5% of the collected taxes as a net gain
Actually, you get 50% of what the peasants produce - but it's in grain and other food. On the other hand, your soldiers don't mind getting some of their pay in food. They like food.

You are correct that the ruler rarely has more than %5 or less of his land's GNP to dedicate to whatever he wants, but on the other hand, he does get to spend most of it on the military since there are no social programs.


This means that if you go to war, you have to win.
This has always been true, but it's never stopped people from going to war.


than you will also have to rebuild the infrastructure in the devastated areas
No you don't. The peasants rebuild it.



Besides, in a society where almost the complete economy is based on agrarian production, one sommer with bad weather means poverty, starvation and crisis. Two or more crop failures, and the social system destabilises and you have to deal with revolts and brigantry. There is little to no planning security in this.
This describes history, and yet the Chinese built the Great Wall, France launched several Crusades, and everybody built castles. All of these efforts required many, many people for tens of years. There was plenty of planning going on.


The idea, that you have money laying around to finance fancy magical items and wizard death squads is not really feasible once you introduce versimilitude to the game.
Except that kings did have money to build castles. In 3.5, a fortress can cost 1,000,000 gp. Charging 5 gp per XP, a 20th level wizard costs just about the same. If all you want to do is look at social resources, you should figure that 20th level wizards are about as common as really bad-ass fortresses. Scotland had Stirling Keep; London had the Tower; and of course there was the aforementioned Great Wall.

Satyr
2008-11-28, 01:06 PM
What? Taxes are as old as lawyers. Even the Greeks complained about them.

For a very long time, taxation was bound to special efforts or tasks. Regular, every year taxes are historically more unusual. For along time, taxes were a lot less reliable sources than custom duties and a lot harder to collect.


Actually, you get 50% of what the peasants produce - but it's in grain and other food. On the other hand, your soldiers don't mind getting some of their pay in food. They like food.
You are correct that the ruler rarely has more than %5 or less of his land's GNP to dedicate to whatever he wants, but on the other hand, he does get to spend most of it on the military since there are no social programs.

50%? Not really. As far as I know, the most peasant families need the better part of their products for the subsistence. And because the harvest are not normally not as yielding as with modern crops and fertilizers, they will also need a significant part of their harvest for the next sowing - as far as I know the ratio of sowed to reaped grain was about 1 to 3 - meaning that you need one third of the harvest for the next season - in fertile regions.
If you want to keep your peasnts alive and working, you can not take more from them than what they need for the next sowing and to survive. Plant Growth spells would help to masssively increase the agrar production.

And do not underestimate the importance of social programs as a form of legitimisation of power and to create social networks (meaning, you sponsor a clerical community and buy the post of the head priest for your family). Even if you couldn't care less for your peasnt's wellbeing or hat your nobles think of you, you still don't want that they know that. Revolts are such a nuisance (and when they become too succesful, you are an ex-tyrant).


No you don't. The peasants rebuild it.

The peasants rebuild the social structures, land rights (there is nothing more important than the land rights), hierarchies and administration? Unlikely.


This describes history, and yet the Chinese built the Great Wall, France launched several Crusades, and everybody built castles. All of these efforts required many, many people for tens of years. There was plenty of planning going on.

I don't know much about chinese history, so I can not really say anything qualified about the Great Wall, but the Crusades were actually some kind of an employment program. The harvests were specifically bad in the time of the first crusade, which meant that you had economic problems. That meanr that the second and third sons of the nobility couldn't get a yielding heritage and were more or less unemployed and dissatisfied. Sending them far, far away was the solution of a problem. The whole matter became self-accelerating afterwards.

Besides, the classic crusades up to Nicopolis were more like an international cooperation project of the nobility, not as much an effort of a single country or state. And the majority of the crusaders paid for their own equipment and those of their followers, not by the central rulership. That was more like a private expedition.


Except that kings did have money to build castles.

Which is a part of the infrastructure. You need castles as status symbols (and symbolism is sometimes almost as important as real values) and they have an important economic meaning as well - you can control a trade route with a castle, you have a place where administration and juridiction are located, and a castle almost always is also a farmstead with an own land (where the peasants have to work for free, respectively paying their taxes in working hours).

Besides, kings don't build castles. The nobility does. Then, the king and his entourage travels from one noble household to the next like a swarm of locusts. The royal administration is too big and the style of living on the royal court too expensive to be be supplied by a single region for a longer time. Only if you have the infrastructure and general productivity to transport large amount of goods you can centralize the rule and establish a permanent court.

elliott20
2008-11-28, 10:20 PM
Let's also not forget the great wall wasn't something that was built from the ground up. It was, in reality, a project that simply connected two existing walls. The actual work took decades to put together, with First Emperor who basically only managed to do by working to death over a quarter of a million laborers.

zeruslord
2008-11-29, 09:37 AM
All the people complaining about gold: it's buried underground in ancient ruins and such. Adventurers go in and bring it back. That's really it.

elliott20
2008-11-29, 09:49 AM
All the people complaining about gold: it's buried underground in ancient ruins and such. Adventurers go in and bring it back. That's really it.

yes, that is clearly the solution to all of fiscal troubles.

"Your Highness, we don't have the finances to create the BOOMTUBE OF POWER that you've requested!"
"again? Just go rob some graves, kill all of it's residence, and then take their gold!"
*sigh* "yes, sir. as you wish"

Yahzi
2008-11-29, 07:37 PM
Regular, every year taxes are historically more unusual.
Poll tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_tax)
The poll tax was essentially a lay subsidy (a tax on the movable property of most of the population) to help fund war. It had first been levied in 1275 and continued, under different names, until the 17th century.


50%?
Sharecropping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharecroppers)
Sharecropping is a system of agriculture or agricultural production in which a landowner allows a tenant to use the land in return for a share of the crop produced on the land (e.g., 50 percent of the crop).


Plant Growth spells would help to masssively increase the agrar production.
Very true. Even though it's only 30%, the margins are so bad that that's a huge increase.


And do not underestimate the importance of social programs
Well, sure, in places like Rome. Not so much in the feudal system that D&D typically emulates.


Revolts are such a nuisance (and when they become too succesful, you are an ex-tyrant).
Peasant revolts cannot succeed in D&D. They barely ever succeeded in history, when all the nobility had was training, equipment, organization, and morale; add in the effects of class levels, and the peasants simply cannot win.


The peasants rebuild the social structures,
No, they rebuild their farms. All the landlord does is tax them.


Besides, the classic crusades up to Nicopolis were more like an international cooperation project of the nobility,

The point was that it was a large-scale, multi-year project which required considerable organization and planning, and it was carried out by an agrarian society throughout several bad harvests.


Besides, kings don't build castles. The nobility does. Then, the king and his entourage travels from one noble household to the next like a swarm of locusts. The royal administration is too big and the style of living on the royal court too expensive to be be supplied by a single region for a longer time.
Kings are nobles; they built castles too. The travelling court was not a universal staple of the medieval world.

Collin152
2008-11-29, 07:39 PM
Peasant revolts cannot succeed in D&D. They barely ever succeeded in history, when all the nobility had was training, equipment, organization, and morale; add in the effects of class levels, and the peasants simply cannot win.


So, the differance between the classes is Class?
To move up through the levels of class, you must move up in Class Levels?

Oslecamo
2008-11-29, 07:48 PM
yes, that is clearly the solution to all of fiscal troubles.

"Your Highness, we don't have the finances to create the BOOMTUBE OF POWER that you've requested!"
"again? Just go rob some graves, kill all of it's residence, and then take their gold!"
*sigh* "yes, sir. as you wish"

Your higness, we don't have enough fuel for our machines to create more machines in our endless quest for moar power.

Again? Just go rob some countries, brainwash/kill all of it's residence, and then take their fuel.

*sigh* yes, sir. As you wish.

Who would say? It actually works!

SurlySeraph
2008-11-29, 07:51 PM
Jesus. I know Tippy has a campaign setting; if it actually works like this, playing a game in it would be very interesting. I'd prefer a game as humble peasants who lost their jobs to magical perpetual-motion devices working to overthrow the wizardly tyranny and bring back old ways, but anything would be fun.

Collin152
2008-11-29, 07:53 PM
Jesus. I know Tippy has a campaign setting; if it actually works like this, playing a game in it would be very interesting. I'd prefer a game as humble peasants who lost their jobs to magical perpetual-motion devices working to overthrow the wizardly tyranny and bring back old ways, but anything would be fun.

I'd totally play a disgruntled ex-miner who intends to sock it to the Wall of Iron Company.

Oslecamo
2008-11-29, 07:54 PM
I don't think I ever saw Tippy hosting a campaign around here, but I would definetely be intersted on playing something came out of his mind.

Dibs on the wizard who got rich with some obscure spell combination and then lost it all to someone who got the copyright ideas first.

Yukitsu
2008-11-29, 07:55 PM
I'd play a disgruntled and apathetic "Magicorpe" tech-line employee.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-29, 08:00 PM
I don't think I ever saw Tippy hosting a campaign around here, but I would definetely be intersted on playing something came out of his mind.

Dibs on the wizard who got rich with some obscure spell combination and then lost it all to someone who got the copyright ideas first.

I don't like hosting PbP. It takes forever. And a tried it once but it died. Besides, right now I'm reasonably busy. Maybe after I run the game I plan on running but that's invite only and the people have already been invited.

The Minx
2008-11-29, 08:17 PM
Wrong. In war number 1, side A uses a wizard and side B loses. In war number 2, side B uses a rogue, kills the wizard and wins. In war 3, the wizards avoid the rogue and just strafe. Warfare is constantly fluid, and so tactics will change in wars. If we're talking about war number N, where N is a large number, then it could be assumed that there is some form of equilibrium between the two sides.

OK, we're not on the same page here. Someone presented a war wizard with X, Y and Z capabilities and he was taken down. Too bad. :smallsmile: Maybe the ones who come later will be smarter but there you go. My point was simply that you shouldn't assume that wizards can always "prepare" for what the opposition does by saying "well, I would have done this" after their tactic is countered. :smallwink:


The 5% on use is relevant, as it causes you to potentially lose 54k of magic cloak.

Less than the chances of losing the wizard. And we ruled out the cloak anyway since it is not permitted by the OP (requiring a level 10 wizard to create it).


Which is not what you initially said. :smalltongue: Assume this is war 4. You're allowed to adapt tactics too.

What I initially said was mooks. They can still defeat the wizard even needing 20s to hit, since the wizard only needs to fail a couple of saves against contact poison to go down. What I said later was illegal due to OP constraints and was dropped for this reason, not because it was beaten. :smallwink: Though I grant that it was less than optimally efficient.


Your point? The wizard doesn't need wands for everything. In peacetime, the wizard can make more wands and stuff as well as the ones he would use.

The point is this: if he is killed then you need a new wizard and no one else can make those wands. The fact that a level 6 wizard has very limited spell slots should tell you that he needs to use wands anyway.


Your wizards win the battle. Your army is for holding conquered lands.

Hold land against other armies or against the wizards? The army has to be more than just glorified muggle police if there are magic users around.


I only ever said it was a valid stratagem when dealing with standard longbowmen. I never said I'd base an army around them. Just that, statistically, the wizard would get 3 rounds worth of attacking in before he died or had to heal. 3 fireballs could do a lot of damage, depending on the troops.

If you're not basing an army around them than fair enough. :smallsmile: Though the damage that can be dealt by the wizard would also depend on whether the minions are all standing next to each other or not. :smallwink:


In any case, flying wizards who are invisible flying to the enemy HQ and setting it on fire is more appealing to me. Avoids retribution and sends the army into disarray.

I don't think that an army in a universe with D&D magic would look anything like a real world medieval army, especially for the HQ. And any HQ which is silly enough not to have some kind of Detect Invisible deserves what it gets. :smallamused:


This is D&D, after all - anything can happen in terms of dice.

It all boils down to the setting - if you have lots of wizards, the tactic is (fairly) valid. If you don't, it isn't.

The low level magic idea suggests that it is the latter. Even then, I'd think that a wizard is less expendable than a minion with a few ranks and possibly a skill focus feat in UMD. But fair enough on the supply and demand point.

Kemper Boyd
2008-11-29, 08:55 PM
The low level magic idea suggests that it is the latter. Even then, I'd think that a wizard is less expendable than a minion with a few ranks and possibly a skill focus feat in UMD. But fair enough on the supply and demand point.

I'd actually compare wizards to tanks. Why does an army keep tanks around? To fight the other guys tanks, first and foremost. Second, to give attacks an extra oomph when required.

A wizard is like a tank: he's the best thing you got against enemy wizards. He can do some serious damage to non-magical troops but alone or in a small group, he is very very vulnerable (like a tank without infantry support). So a smart general knows that he should keep his wizards and sorcerers in reserve until they can actually do something of value.

"Fly around, kill twenty soldiers before being hit by a hail of arrows" isn't smart use of a really rare and powerful resource for any general worth his stars.

The Minx
2008-11-29, 09:12 PM
I'd actually compare wizards to tanks. Why does an army keep tanks around? To fight the other guys tanks, first and foremost. Second, to give attacks an extra oomph when required.

A wizard is like a tank: he's the best thing you got against enemy wizards. He can do some serious damage to non-magical troops but alone or in a small group, he is very very vulnerable (like a tank without infantry support). So a smart general knows that he should keep his wizards and sorcerers in reserve until they can actually do something of value.

"Fly around, kill twenty soldiers before being hit by a hail of arrows" isn't smart use of a really rare and powerful resource for any general worth his stars.

I like this comparison. :smallsmile: Though Greg's flying fireballer may be closer to a helicopter gunship tactically, but the point is well taken.

Greg
2008-11-30, 09:32 AM
I like this comparison. :smallsmile: Though Tippy's flying fireballer may be closer to a helicopter gunship tactically, but the point is well taken.
Fixed that for you. I merely expanded upon his idea for argument's sake - the answer probably isn't "throw mooks at it".

War isn't rock-paper-scissors. X-beats-Y-beats-Z-beats-X is overly simplified. You need diviners more than anything for intel. Wizards should be used to counter shock troops - large monsters and other casters.

The true value of a wizard depends on how common wizards are in your campaign setting. If they're rare as hen's teeth, then you wouldn't risk them for direct attack. If 1 person in 100 (population, not military) is a wizard, you might be less protective of them.

TengYt
2008-11-30, 01:23 PM
Also, it should be assumed that ECL 6, not every single caster is level 6. Of course, if every single Wizard in the army is at that level, then things change completly. At lower levels, Wizards wil form a support role if anything. Besides, it's also a bit a stretch to assume every single type of magical item, scroll, wand and trap will be available to every army, no matter what their resources. I doubt rulers have a DMG style "Menu" of magical items they can pick and choose from. And if they do, that means everyone else also has access to them, so warfare basically turns into a Magical Item arms race, with potentially devastating results to all sides.

I see most troops (Wizards or otherwise) being no higher than level 2, maybe higher for elites or commanders. Therefore, armies are likely to rely heavily on small, specialist teams (Adventuring parties, for example) who would perform special ops such as assassinating enemy leaders, destroying supplies, taking down powerful monsters, and countering other Adventuring Parties.

The Minx
2008-11-30, 05:43 PM
Fixed that for you. I merely expanded upon his idea for argument's sake - the answer probably isn't "throw mooks at it".

Mooks are more than mere muggles if you are in a magic world. I think that this is the point where we are having disagreements.


War isn't rock-paper-scissors. X-beats-Y-beats-Z-beats-X is overly simplified. You need diviners more than anything for intel. Wizards should be used to counter shock troops - large monsters and other casters.

Err, I don't know if I claimed the scissors paper stones thing? :smallconfused:


The true value of a wizard depends on how common wizards are in your campaign setting. If they're rare as hen's teeth, then you wouldn't risk them for direct attack. If 1 person in 100 (population, not military) is a wizard, you might be less protective of them.

I guess we can agree on that.

Dervag
2008-11-30, 06:04 PM
Your higness, we don't have enough fuel for our machines to create more machines in our endless quest for moar power.

Again? Just go rob some countries, brainwash/kill all of it's residence, and then take their fuel.

*sigh* yes, sir. As you wish.

Who would say? It actually works!Not really. So far, there are no major confirmed cases of it obviously working, in that the attacker got enough fuel to do as they please at a reasonable cost.

Simple, politically motivated sneers aside, wars to grab resources haven't worked well in the modern era (from about 1900 on). There are a lot of reasons for that- one being that a guerilla war costs more to fight than looting the country can bring you in profits. And looting a country almost always starts a guerilla war these days.

In a D&D setting, peasants don't make good guerilla fighters. But the conquered population will always have a few outraged people with class levels that do. And they can cause you enough damage if they fight smart that it wasn't worth invading them in the first place.
_________

Now, raiding ancient ruins for money is a little different, because that's a form of stripmining and not a way of grabbing a long-term supply of resources. From the king's point of view, the trap-riddled Tomb of Ancient Warlords is like a big gold mine with some very dangerous mining accidents going on inside.

Once you've looted all the ancient dungeons in the area there aren't any more left, and there probably weren't all that many in your country to begin with. To make matters worse, looting ancient dungeons can be expensive in magic items and high level characters (who can die in the process of looting).

Pulling treasure out of ancient tombs to fuel your war effort or your construction project can work in D&D, but it also causes economic problems in your country, like inflation. Look at what happened to the Spanish empire, which was built on a combination of royal marriages and South American silver mines. Eventually, the whole thing fell apart, because while they had plenty of gold, they didn't have any other economic activities to keep things running once the gold started to run out.
____________


I like this comparison. :smallsmile: Though Greg's flying fireballer may be closer to a helicopter gunship tactically, but the point is well taken.Helicopter gunships are too easy to kill. Any weapon bigger than an infantry rifle can take them down if it can get in a decent number of hits, so helicopters generally can't operate safely over the enemy's territory. Flying fireballers can if they use the right defensive spells. In short, they have "armor" that makes them difficult to kill without specialized weapons, as tanks do. Helicopters don't have that kind of protection; their only strength is in mobility.

So a flying fireballer is like a gunship if he forgets to use things like Invisibility and Protection from Arrows and stuff like that. If he remembers, he's like a tank.

The Minx
2008-11-30, 09:00 PM
Helicopter gunships are too easy to kill. Any weapon bigger than an infantry rifle can take them down if it can get in a decent number of hits, so helicopters generally can't operate safely over the enemy's territory. Flying fireballers can if they use the right defensive spells. In short, they have "armor" that makes them difficult to kill without specialized weapons, as tanks do. Helicopters don't have that kind of protection; their only strength is in mobility.

So a flying fireballer is like a gunship if he forgets to use things like Invisibility and Protection from Arrows and stuff like that. If he remembers, he's like a tank.

But stuff corresponding to "anything bigger than an infantry rifle" would beat Protection from Arrows. It's only DR 10/magic, after all and the mage is only 6th level so he can't take a "decent number of hits" against stuff like that. :smallconfused:

TengYt
2008-12-01, 03:45 AM
Also, I think any self-respecting D&D army would have strong aerial units, possibly for the sole purpose of countering mages.

elliott20
2008-12-01, 03:51 AM
and stuff of true seeing.

Triaxx
2008-12-01, 09:41 AM
Of course, a wizard that spends all his time in the air is obviously going to invest in fly-by attack. Plus Mirror Image.

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-01, 09:59 AM
Also, I think any self-respecting D&D army would have strong aerial units, possibly for the sole purpose of countering mages.

Any self respecting D&D army should be made up of intelligent Advanced Shadesteel Golems being controlled by highish level wizards and with warforged scouts. :smallwink:

TengYt
2008-12-01, 10:58 AM
I guess it depends on how high level we're talking. If it comes down to really high levels, warfare basically becomes a race to see which wizards can wipe the others off the face of reality first. Even at lower levels, I can picture specialists "training" ettins and trolls etc or recruiting other monsterous races rather than using Fighters or whatever. Also, as you said, getting your resident Gnomes to make the best warforged possible would also make a big part. At levels 6 and higher, I see Druids being some of best front line troops imaginable. An army of dinosaurs and bears, who can cast spells and are buffed to hell and back, supported by Fleshraker animal companions? And with Warforged, Giants, flying Wizards, infantry with Wands of Fireball and who knows what else on their side?
It becomes less a Medieval Fantasy war and more a Steampunk Jurrasic Park dystopia magical WWI affair.

Dervag
2008-12-01, 11:09 AM
Any self respecting D&D army should be made up of intelligent Advanced Shadesteel Golems being controlled by highish level wizards and with warforged scouts. :smallwink:This is only true because such an army will stomp the face of all other armies in the multiverse, until only this army has any self-respect. All others will abase themselves and pay a "please don't impale me" tax to whoever built this army.

Of course, that assumes you like your cheese straight and don't chase it with a shot of logistics restrictions the way I do.

Oslecamo
2008-12-01, 02:33 PM
Any self respecting D&D army should be made up of intelligent Advanced Shadesteel Golems being controlled by highish level wizards and with warforged scouts. :smallwink:

Since you need 17th level casters to build shadesteel golems, plus plenty of time and gold, how did you stop my undead rush thanks to my 5th deathbound clerics who can instantly create undeads whitout spending a penny thanks to fell animate?

Undeads are the ultimate D&D troops. Cheap, effecient, versatile and immune to most dirty tricks.:smallbiggrin:

Yukitsu
2008-12-01, 02:35 PM
Generally, "build a wall" stops the zerg rush.

Oslecamo
2008-12-01, 02:36 PM
Since there's plenty of cheap flying/incorporeal/climbing undeads out there, no, a wall won't be enough.

Yukitsu
2008-12-01, 02:43 PM
Incorporeal are never free, and the flyers become the only issue. Skeletons and zombies lose all skills, so even with climbing, they aint getting over. Fell animate only makes the zombies, so you just have to worry about flyers.

hamishspence
2008-12-01, 02:53 PM
Creatures with a Climb speed? flyer- Zombie dragons from Draconomicon might fit. That is, if you follow the bit that says: Can be created with Animate Dead.

Yukitsu
2008-12-01, 02:56 PM
Probably not going to kill one using magic as a level 5 cleric though.

Oslecamo
2008-12-01, 03:23 PM
Incorporeal are never free, and the flyers become the only issue. Skeletons and zombies lose all skills, so even with climbing, they aint getting over. Fell animate only makes the zombies, so you just have to worry about flyers.

1-Find a shade.
2-Comand it with rebuke undead.
3-Get your shade to kill low level guys, producing more shades under your control whitout actually costing you undead cap.
4-?
5-Profit.

Yukitsu
2008-12-01, 03:51 PM
Yeah, most people find that a horrendous abuse of everything holy. :smalltongue: You have much, much worse campaign problems compared to normal wartorn Tippyverse if you add in unlimited incorporeal undead. Specifically, at later levels when they guy takes a banshee-screaming-meteor-locate-city-gate (the only effective tool at those levels) you have, well, unlimited shadows running amuck killing everyone on every side left right and center. Except the team that went necropolitan.

mangosta71
2008-12-01, 04:06 PM
So a flying fireballer is like a gunship if he forgets to use things like Invisibility and Protection from Arrows and stuff like that. If he remembers, he's like a tank.

Except, EL6, he can't have Improved Invisibility. The exchange looks something like this:

Wizard A: "Ok, I fly over the battlefield and cast Fireball at a group of the enemy soldiers."
Wizard B: "Right, that means you're no longer invisible. I cast Dispel Magic on you."
Wizard A: "Oh. Is plummeting to my death a free action, or do I have to wait until the next round?"

Oslecamo
2008-12-01, 04:32 PM
Yeah, most people find that a horrendous abuse of everything holy. :smalltongue: You have much, much worse campaign problems compared to normal wartorn Tippyverse if you add in unlimited incorporeal undead. Specifically, at later levels when they guy takes a banshee-screaming-meteor-locate-city-gate (the only effective tool at those levels) you have, well, unlimited shadows running amuck killing everyone on every side left right and center. Except the team that went necropolitan.

Well, when Tippy started pulling the traps of DOOM, I tought we could leave our honor and self respect at the door, and go nuts with the D&D cheese.:smallbiggrin:

If he has a strike force of cheesy golems able to teleport anywhere at any time, then I shall have an undead force that will be everywhere everytime! Let's see who wins that.:smalltongue:

Greg
2008-12-01, 04:34 PM
Err, I don't know if I claimed the scissors paper stones thing? :smallconfused:
That was just an opinion of mine.


Except, EL6, he can't have Improved Invisibility. The exchange looks something like this:

Wizard A: "Ok, I fly over the battlefield and cast Fireball at a group of the enemy soldiers."
Wizard B: "Right, that means you're no longer invisible. I cast Dispel Magic on you."
Wizard A: "Oh. Is plummeting to my death a free action, or do I have to wait until the next round?"
The range of fireball > the range of dispel magic.

Yukitsu
2008-12-01, 04:35 PM
Well, when Tippy started pulling the traps of DOOM, I tought we could leave our honor and self respect at the door, and go nuts with the D&D cheese.:smallbiggrin:

If he has a strike force of cheesy golems able to teleport anywhere at any time, then I shall have an undead force that will be everywhere everytime! Let's see who wins that.:smalltongue:

I think the problem is more the "run amuck" clause, as opposed to the inherent cheese problem. :smalltongue:

chiasaur11
2008-12-01, 04:46 PM
Well, when Tippy started pulling the traps of DOOM, I tought we could leave our honor and self respect at the door, and go nuts with the D&D cheese.:smallbiggrin:

If he has a strike force of cheesy golems able to teleport anywhere at any time, then I shall have an undead force that will be everywhere everytime! Let's see who wins that.:smalltongue:

Kobolds.

As always.

Oslecamo
2008-12-01, 04:50 PM
I think the problem is more the "run amuck" clause, as opposed to the inherent cheese problem. :smalltongue:

Well, since my workforce was indeed composed of a combination of undeads and necroplolitans, it will just be a little slowdonw untill I get control of them all again.

Eskil
2008-12-01, 06:02 PM
Undeads are the ultimate D&D troops. Cheap, effecient, versatile and immune to most dirty tricks.:smallbiggrin:

...and with the Destruction Retribution feat they can also serve as anti-personal ammunition.

Three dozen zombie ravens that explodes in negative energy when destroyed? It's a start.

Checked. Still have to pay expensive components above 1 gp.
Yeah, I saw it to when double-checking. 3.0 Blood Component replace the material regardless of cost but not 3.5. *sigh* Oh well...

Yukitsu
2008-12-01, 06:05 PM
Someone needs to make 8 nations of specialized wizards that use all 8 schools, but each focus on a specific one. The undead one is likely exactly that.

If we do, I totally call illusion.

Collin152
2008-12-01, 07:04 PM
Someone needs to make 8 nations of specialized wizards that use all 8 schools, but each focus on a specific one. The undead one is likely exactly that.

If we do, I totally call illusion.

Enchantmentmindrape I callmindrape enchantment me mindrape mindrape!

Yukitsu
2008-12-01, 11:11 PM
Remind me to wear a tinfoil hat around Collin from here on out.

The Minx
2008-12-01, 11:58 PM
Someone needs to make 8 nations of specialized wizards that use all 8 schools, but each focus on a specific one. The undead one is likely exactly that.

If we do, I totally call illusion.

Conjuration > other schools. Except possibly Transmutation. I call Conjuration. ^^

Oslecamo
2008-12-02, 05:15 AM
Bah, my nation is immune to two of the other schools, illusion and enchantment so I get an excellent headstart.

The transmutation and conjuration schools are much more worthy enemies.

Well, once I take down the abjuration school, I think I can just enervate everything else to death.

NotMe
2008-12-02, 06:40 AM
I suspect that very low level magic users would have more effect as clerics or warlocks than as mages, as clerics could prevent a lot of deaths and incapacitations on the mundane troops (even a cure minor will stabilize a soldier and prevent death), with corresponding increases in morale and a reduction of costs in caring for crippled veterans. Not to mention the effects of a bless on combat effectiveness, or the ability to use wands of create food and water to reduce the needs for supply trains for a period.

Warlocks (and Dragon Shaman) have the advantage of having at will abilities, and summon swarm at will is really going to damage close order fighting.

However, undead armies (hordes) with dread necromancers will take over the world versus mundane or low magic / creature equipped armies. No need to eat or requirement for weapons/boots, etc virtually removes the need for resupply, unlimited healing from the dread necromancers means any non terminal casualties will quickly be at full effectiveness, and any captives can efficiently be aminated with fell drain.

Oslecamo
2008-12-02, 07:44 AM
I suspect that very low level magic users would have more effect as clerics or warlocks than as mages, as clerics could prevent a lot of deaths and incapacitations on the mundane troops (even a cure minor will stabilize a soldier and prevent death), with corresponding increases in morale and a reduction of costs in caring for crippled veterans.

You do realize the heal skill can also be utilized to easily stablize people and solve a lot of other health problems, right?



However, undead armies (hordes) with dread necromancers will take over the world versus mundane or low magic / creature equipped armies. No need to eat or requirement for weapons/boots, etc virtually removes the need for resupply, unlimited healing from the dread necromancers means any non terminal casualties will quickly be at full effectiveness, and any captives can efficiently be aminated with fell drain.

Yep, that my point. Undeads are the best troops in terms of cost/effeciency.

Except that with a little(or a lot) of optimization, you can actually also be a threat against medium- high magic forces, since there's all kind of nasty high level undeads out there.

Or swarms. Hell, that wizard will have to exit his Magnificent Mansion some time, and when he does, there'll be some million shaddows waiting for him, all waiting to drain his strenght to zero.

NotMe
2008-12-02, 09:52 AM
You do realize the heal skill can also be utilized to easily stablize people and solve a lot of other health problems, right?
.

Yes, but Heal is only a class skill (in PHB) for class with Cure minor on their spell lists, and a DC15 check (first aid or long term care) isn't trivial for someone with no/few ranks.


Yep, that my point. Undeads are the best troops in terms of cost/effeciency.
.

Any army that requires no or minimal resupply or upkeep is going to have a massive advantage against a 'real world' style medieval army. Undead just happen to have a ready supply of 'materials' available in war and are available from low level. The tireless thing doesn't hurt either.

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-02, 11:06 AM
Undead are a nice, cheap, army. But they aren't the best and they can't stand up too the golem army (assuming that it has been constructed).

Yukitsu
2008-12-02, 11:28 AM
Bah, my nation is immune to two of the other schools, illusion and enchantment so I get an excellent headstart.

The transmutation and conjuration schools are much more worthy enemies.

Well, once I take down the abjuration school, I think I can just enervate everything else to death.

Undead aren't immune to all illusions. :smallwink: Only patterns and phantasms. The shadows can get to them.

Oslecamo
2008-12-02, 01:16 PM
Undead are a nice, cheap, army. But they aren't the best and they can't stand up too the golem army (assuming that it has been constructed).


One on one, my undeads indeed don't have a chance against your golems.

However, it won't be on one one. It will be several trillions undeads for each of your golems.

You can't have traps of create golem, since there's no instant create golem spell.

I can have traps of create undead/greater and comand undead, since they're spells.

Eventually, your golems will fall to an hail of natural 20s to overcome their high AC.

Undeads. Always outgunned, never outnumbered.:smallbiggrin:

Or like the other guy said, quantity has a quality of it's own.

Yukitsu
2008-12-02, 01:22 PM
You'll run out of corpses before you hit trillions. Basically, I don't think any of us stated or implied that we'd be sending live troops to fight. Except Collin, but it's not like there would be trillions of mindraped soldiers.

Oslecamo
2008-12-02, 01:50 PM
You'll run out of corpses before you hit trillions. Basically, I don't think any of us stated or implied that we'd be sending live troops to fight. Except Collin, but it's not like there would be trillions of mindraped soldiers.

Who said anything about using your soldiers? That's for what calling effects are! There's infinite planes out there, meaning infinite bodies for me to get with magic shenigans.

1-Enslave druids. Have them call a new animal companion every day. Kill it, zombify it, rinse and repeat.

2-Planar binding/gate/planar ally, nuff said. Get them, kill them, zombify them, in a massive production line that never stops.

3-I don't know if it works by raw, but theorically a trap of animate dead or create greater undead would keep working if I fitted 100 bodies on each of them.

tyckspoon
2008-12-02, 02:42 PM
1-Enslave druids. Have them call a new animal companion every day. Kill it, zombify it, rinse and repeat.

2-Planar binding/gate/planar ally, nuff said. Get them, kill them, zombify them, in a massive production line that never stops.

3-I don't know if it works by raw, but theorically a trap of animate dead or create greater undead would keep working if I fitted 100 bodies on each of them.

You can also use spells like Polymorph Any Object and Stone To Flesh to get corpses of pretty much anything you want. Keep a bunch of sculptors on retainer (preferably, Charmed or otherwise conviced to do it cheap/free for the good of the nation) to make you statues of useful monsters. Or get your higher-level arcane casters to take ranks in Craft (Sculpting) or (Stonemasonry) and Fabricate them.

hamishspence
2008-12-02, 02:49 PM
doesn't Polymorph any object have a limited duration if the two are very different. Rock to Dragon Corpse- shouldn't last very long.

a severe DM might choose to keep the limit- dragon corpse- animated as zombie dragon- a few minutes later- PAO duration expires and corpse turns back into rock. It may be animated, but its still a transformed object.

Yukitsu
2008-12-02, 02:50 PM
Once you start down those roads, cost likely becomes comparable to creating the golems though. :smalltongue: I think those options also limit you to mostly corporeal undead.

hamishspence
2008-12-02, 02:53 PM
According to Draconomicon- Animate Dead can be used to create Dragon Zombies. Which have no HD limit, unlike normal Zombies. And don't double Hit Dice, the way normal zombies do.

However, that combined with Desecrate and an altar can make for overpowerful zombies.

TengYt
2008-12-02, 03:03 PM
So what, warfare comes down to the Evil Necromancers and their endless undead hoardes VS The Evil Mad Scientists and their golem army, with everyone else dead (and thus undead) or enslaved? What a grim image.

Yukitsu
2008-12-02, 03:04 PM
Hey. I has illusions. I can hide. :smallsmile:

Oslecamo
2008-12-02, 03:05 PM
Once you start down those roads, cost likely becomes comparable to creating the golems though. :smalltongue: I think those options also limit you to mostly corporeal undead.

Nah, golems are still more expensive, because I only need to pay each trap once, but Tippy has to pay for each golem individually.

So his troop production capacity grows aritmetically, while mine grows exponentially.

And golems still take LOTS of time to craft. Each of mine assembly line will be coughing out several undeads per day compared to Tippy's one golem at month or so.

Thanks to hamishspence for remembering me of the really great dragon undeads, wich indeed probably can go toe to toe with golems of any kind:smallbiggrin:

mangosta71
2008-12-02, 03:05 PM
Technically, couldn't you enslave someone's spirit as a ghost/shadow/whatever while simultaneously animating his remains? Two for the price of one! Besides which, I doubt that golems have the requisite intelligence to hunt down and destroy phylacteries. Liches and draco-liches (assuming you can command their loyalty) could probably go toe-to-toe with a golem, too. And even if they lose the first time, they keep coming back.

Yukitsu
2008-12-02, 03:09 PM
Nah, golems are still more expensive, because I only need to pay each trap once, but Tippy has to pay for each golem individually.

So his troop production capacity grows aritmetically, while mine grows exponentially.

And golems still take LOTS of time to craft. Each of mine assembly line will be coughing out several undeads per day compared to Tippy's one golem at month or so.

Thanks to hamishspence for remembering me of the really great dragon undeads, wich indeed probably can go toe to toe with golems of any kind:smallbiggrin:

I mean to get the corpses. Doing that isn't cheap, and since you need about 200 to each of his one, it's a legitimate concern.

The one I mentioned for the illusion verse is unfortunately the most expensive. Potentially more powerful than either the golems or the undead, but by far the most costly.

hamishspence
2008-12-02, 03:14 PM
probably worst abuse is a 20th level cleric using PAO to transform a Great Red Wyrm body into a Great Prismatic Wyrm- still a dragon, same age, would be permanent.

Desecrate + altar enables you to animate up to 4 times your HD at once- and control them. the CR of the Zombie Dragon is way higher than that of the cleric.

Oslecamo
2008-12-02, 03:20 PM
I mean to get the corpses. Doing that isn't cheap, and since you need about 200 to each of his one, it's a legitimate concern.


Like I said, that's for what there's the traps of planar biding/gate/planar ally, wich bring creatures from other planes wich I kill to feed the other traps with corpses, for no upkeep at all.



The one I mentioned for the illusion verse is unfortunately the most expensive. Potentially more powerful than either the golems or the undead, but by far the most costly.

I seem to have missed it, mind telling what exactly that uber idea was?

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-02, 03:23 PM
probably worst abuse is a 20th level cleric using PAO to transform a Great Red Wyrm body into a Great Prismatic Wyrm- still a dragon, same age, would be permanent.

Desecrate + altar enables you to animate up to 4 times your HD at once- and control them. the CR of the Zombie Dragon is way higher than that of the cleric.

Doesn't work. PaO doesn't let you change into things with more than 15HD and even a 1 day old Prismatic Dragon has 23 HD (yes, they are born epic).

Yukitsu
2008-12-02, 03:24 PM
Like I said, that's for what there's the traps of planar biding/gate/planar ally, wich bring creatures from other planes wich I kill to feed the other traps with corpses, for no upkeep at all.



I seem to have missed it, mind telling what exactly that uber idea was?

A 20 HD simalacrum of Vecna. Has all his divine abilities.

Technically, you can use that to make more, but that's cheese.

hamishspence
2008-12-02, 03:26 PM
Not you- the dead body, which doesn't have HD- it has hardness and hp. Transforming a body of a creature to a body of a similar creature is well within the remit of the spell.

Non-magical object- 100 cubic feet per level- 2000 cubic feet- come to think of it, it might be a shade on the large side. Maybe Enlarge Spell?

Oslecamo
2008-12-02, 03:40 PM
A 20 HD simalacrum of Vecna. Has all his divine abilities.

Technically, you can use that to make more, but that's cheese.
Well, first you need to find a piece of Vecna, and they aren't really sold in packs at your local mage store.

But I like the idea. Reminds me of all those ressurect ancient monster with fossilized ADN stories:smalltongue:

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-02, 03:45 PM
Well, first you need to find a piece of Vecna, and they aren't really sold in packs at your local mage store.

But I like the idea. Reminds me of all those ressurect ancient monster with fossilized ADN stories:smalltongue:

Technically, it's price is - so you have some in your spell component pouch. Or can just ignore it with Eschew Materials.

tyckspoon
2008-12-02, 03:45 PM
Once you start down those roads, cost likely becomes comparable to creating the golems though. :smalltongue: I think those options also limit you to mostly corporeal undead.

You do generally get corporeal undead, but the cost isn't a problem if you have the casters to support it. Wall of Stone gets you as much rock as you want. Fabricate can turn it into statues rapidly. Flesh to Stone/PAO turns your statues into corpses. The only part that costs money is animating the end result, and the only part that takes a significant amount of time is quarrying out your Wall of Stone-filled rockpit, which is why you have those 1-HD Humanoid Zombies. That does all key on level 5/6 spells, but so does Planar Binding (Lesser).

hamishspence
2008-12-02, 03:47 PM
just cos it's price is - doesn't mean you have it. Price of an artifact is - do mages carry them in their spell pouches?. Point of the material is- its not a normal spell component. It may not have a cost, (nor do most) but unlike them, you can't find "Hair Of My Target" just anywhere

in any case- simulcrum needs the material. Spell Like Ability of it, or Eshew Materials- maybe by RAW they would work, but still evades the intent of the spell.

Oslecamo
2008-12-02, 04:02 PM
Technically, it's price is - so you have some in your spell component pouch. Or can just ignore it with Eschew Materials.

Very technically speaking.

Remind me to equip all my undead forces with staffs of the magi in that case, since they also don't have cost, one component puch has infinite of them!:smalltongue:

Yukitsu
2008-12-02, 06:37 PM
just cos it's price is - doesn't mean you have it. Price of an artifact is - do mages carry them in their spell pouches?. Point of the material is- its not a normal spell component. It may not have a cost, (nor do most) but unlike them, you can't find "Hair Of My Target" just anywhere

in any case- simulcrum needs the material. Spell Like Ability of it, or Eshew Materials- maybe by RAW they would work, but still evades the intent of the spell.

You have to take eschew materials, by the way I play it. Doesn't make it impossible though, as that's actually a pretty good feat for an illusionist. :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2008-12-02, 06:45 PM
Very technically speaking.

Remind me to equip all my undead forces with staffs of the magi in that case, since they also don't have cost, one component puch has infinite of them!:smalltongue:

Only if there is a RAW spell that has a Staff of the Magi as a material component - pouches only have an infinite supply of things that cost less than 1GP and are used in spells. No, the Epic spell that requires an artifact doesn't count.:smallbiggrin:

Yukitsu
2008-12-02, 06:53 PM
just cos it's price is - doesn't mean you have it. Price of an artifact is - do mages carry them in their spell pouches?. Point of the material is- its not a normal spell component. It may not have a cost, (nor do most) but unlike them, you can't find "Hair Of My Target" just anywhere


"these items should only enter a campaign through deliberate choice on your part."

"Your" in this case, being the DM.

The Glyphstone
2008-12-02, 06:57 PM
Otherwise the Commoner Railgun got even worse...now it's not just launching quarterstaffs at Mach 9, it's launching Staves of the Magi instead!:smallbiggrin: This solves the whole problem of momentum not actually meaning anything in D&D either now - the last commoner doesn't throw the Staff, he runs forward and snaps it in half next to the enemy in question...

Yukitsu
2008-12-02, 07:20 PM
Better than the millions of card games that would go terribly awry.

hamishspence
2008-12-03, 08:08 AM
Well, there is that Apocalypse From the Sky spell (BoVD) that had one as component. Sage advice said it was a Focus, but later book (Elder Evils) described it, in the charcter entry, as needing a Component.

Oslecamo
2008-12-03, 08:20 AM
Well, there is that Apocalypse From the Sky spell (BoVD) that had one as component. Sage advice said it was a Focus, but later book (Elder Evils) described it, in the charcter entry, as needing a Component.

Ah, good one, I knew there was some spell out there demanding artifacts as a component cost.

Screw magic traps, infinite artifacts for 10 gold is the new cheese!:smallbiggrin:

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-03, 10:34 AM
Ah, good one, I knew there was some spell out there demanding artifacts as a component cost.

Screw magic traps, infinite artifacts for 10 gold is the new cheese!:smallbiggrin:

Artifacts yes, but just generic ones. You don't get a Staff of the Magi, or any artifact that actually has any power or does anything. Just a generic "artifact" that qualifies as a material component. At least that's how I rule it when I don't just tell them player to take Eschew Materials if they want to pull those kinds of shenanigans.

Yukitsu
2008-12-03, 11:12 AM
Ah, good one, I knew there was some spell out there demanding artifacts as a component cost.

Screw magic traps, infinite artifacts for 10 gold is the new cheese!:smallbiggrin:

Except the DMG specifically states that they can only ever appear in game at the DMs specific intervention.

Oslecamo
2008-12-03, 11:13 AM
Artifacts yes, but just generic ones. You don't get a Staff of the Magi, or any artifact that actually has any power or does anything. Just a generic "artifact" that qualifies as a material component. At least that's how I rule it when I don't just tell them player to take Eschew Materials if they want to pull those kinds of shenanigans.

By definition, artifacts are very powerfull magic stuff that do great things.

If it doesn't do anything, then it isn't an artifact. Heck, would the dark gods rain destruction on earth just because you sacrificed to them a generic artifact that isn't good for anything? I think not.

Mind you, any player trying to pull that kind of cheese no my games would also get the DM hammer.

But since you were talking about traps of true ressurection and very questionable infinite exp loops, I think you're just jealous because your golem army now hasn't got any chance against my staff of the magi/book of infinite spells wielding undead legion.:smallbiggrin:

Yukitsu
2008-12-03, 11:22 AM
Except, you know, the direct statement that it can't work and all.

I should really just get the CL boosting items and build a trap of simalacrum one of these days. Then I just need an infinite supply of snowmen.

Oslecamo
2008-12-03, 11:54 AM
Except, you know, the direct statement that it can't work and all.

Then we're all screwed, since the DM gets to choose whatever the PCs have acess to and what they don't in all matters, not just with artifacts.

After all, the traps and monsters are also suposed to be introduced in the campaign just by the DM, not the players.

Yukitsu
2008-12-03, 01:41 PM
Then we're all screwed, since the DM gets to choose whatever the PCs have acess to and what they don't in all matters, not just with artifacts.

After all, the traps and monsters are also suposed to be introduced in the campaign just by the DM, not the players.

"No table has been included to randomly generate specific artifacts, since these items should only enter a campaign through deliberate choice on your part."

Which isn't stated for anything else in the DMG. While implied, it does mean that say, at character creation for a campaign starting at level 10, a person can have a strand of prayer beads, a planar ally and a trapped spell book, but they certainly can't start with an artifact.