Tripping. Free Attack of Oppotunity for life?

[Ixahinon]

A friend was arguing with me on how anything with a trip attempt good enough to do it, can trip you, Attack of Opportunity as you get up, trip you again, and repeat. Without the you really have a chance to retaliate in turn. Making trip pretty potent.

I got to thinking about this, and since I'm pretty gullable when it comes to believing something logical to be possible, I have to believe him.

Rolling away from the opponent while downed would evoke an attack of opportunity, since you are moving away from him, likely at half speed, since you are rolling. Getting up is a no brainer. Only thing I can think of is teleporting away...or attacking while on the floor, but that doens't really solve anything.

Can someone disprove me/him? Or is trip really just a free Attack of Opportunity card?

[Jack_Simth]

Technically, AoO's occur before the event that provokes them resolves. As getting tripped and/or taking damage does not technically prevent you from getting up, when you successfully trip someone, you get one AoO as they get up, and attempting to trip them on that AoO has no effect.

[BRC]

Provided they make the trip check every time, and nobody comes to interrupt them, I guess it is. However, the rules for Withdrawing and taking a five foot step don't say you can't do it while prone.

Also, a standard action can become a move action. So you can stand up (as a move action), and take the AoO, then move away. Unless they have combat reflexes, they can't take another AoO against you.

[Fax Celestis]

Also, one can make a DC 35 Tumble check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#freeStand), use the Thief-Acrobat's Kip Up ability (CAdv), or use the Kip Up skill trick (CScn) to stand without provoking.

[ericgrau]

Don't forget if he has improved trip he gets a free regular attack against you every time he succeeds on a trip.

Yeah, the tactic works, but I don't see why he wouldn't fail his trip attempt eventually. It's just an opposed strength vs. strength or strength vs. dex check, plus bonuses. Unless he has a million splatbooks I don't see how you could get more than a +4, maybe +6 if I'm forgetting something.

Crawling away is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity and only lets you move 5 feet. You can't trip someone who's already prone, but you can AoO for damage and follow the guy.

Standing up is a move action and you get two of those per turn, so the tripper needs combat reflexes to keep you down with AoO's alone. He can still trip on his turn, but then that consumes his turn as well as yours.

But I have the simplest solution by far: When did you ever see an action sequence where someone got tripped and immediately stood back up? Never IIRC. That would be stupid; he'd just get hurt and/or tripped again. Oh, hey, just like D&D. Instead, he eats his disadvantage and keeps fighting from the ground, sometimes pulling his opponent down with him. Hey, whaddya know, being prone only affects attack rolls & AC, starting a trip is a mere touch attack, and you'd get no penalties to the trip check itself. Or just hack away. So simplest answer is to just eat your -4's, keep fighting and hope for the best. I mean, you'd have to be a moron to instantly stand back up while fighting the guy who just tripped you, and yet when it's a game not real life this is the first thing people think of. Like "OMG, how do I BEAT this? NO! Working around it is not an option! Must exert self-image of unconditional superiority and keep fighting it head on no matter what the cost!"

[KevLar]

It's just an opposed strength vs. strength or strength vs. dex check, plus bonuses. Unless he has a million splatbooks I don't see how you could get more than a +4, maybe +6 if I'm forgetting something.
Exactly because it's a STR check, there are a million ways to optimize it.
1) If you have decent INT, 3 levels of Factotum add your Int modifier (on top of strength).
2) If you have decent charisma, 1 level of Marshal adds your Cha modifier (on top of strength).
3) There are many items that boost strength checks in MIC, and some (who work with charges, 1 or 3 times per day) are dirt cheap. Same for opposed trip checks in particular.
4) Size matters. :smalltongue: With a +4 for every larger category, you can use enlarge person (cast by your friends or through items/potions), or you can pick a Large (or larger) race, or you can take a Goliath (and half-giant, I think? what was it? I don't remember) who have Powerful Build and count as larger, or you can wildshape to something awful.

EDIT
5) Tome of Battle and Setting Sun maneuvers.

Lots of options.

[olelia]

Soo..stop getting back up...just eat the -4 on the ground. BAM improved trip just went out the window.

[Ixahinon]

Right, so what it amounts to is this:

Giant Trips you, you go down, -4 to AC, Giant uses other attacks to it you.
You get up. Giant hits you again. Withdrawl.
Giant reaches you, trips you again. You go down
You try to get up, Giant hits you again. Withdrawl

Or..we can go the 'just take it route.' And day just the same way, only with even less AC and attack bonuses.

Lesson to learn: No matter what you are, take trip attack, and learn spells to increase size, you can never lose.

[jcsw]

If you're a caster, it's your own damn fault for getting into trip range.

If you're a rogue or similar, you are likely to have high dex to get you a fighting chance to avoid trips, or high tumble to get out of them. You probably have high enough skill points to take the skill tricks that Fax mentioned.

If you are a melee type, you likely have high strength to avoid trips, and potentially counter-trip them.

If you are a PC, you likely have allies, which are a great help.

[Fax Celestis]

Lesson to learn: No matter what you are, take trip attack, and learn spells to increase size, you can never lose.

False. Teleportation effects can save you. Allies can save you. Free actions don't provoke, so what I listed earlier (Kip Up, skill trick, Tumble check) will save you. Instigating a grapple from prone can save you.

There are ways.

[RTGoodman]

False. Teleportation effects can save you. Allies can save you. Free actions don't provoke, so what I listed earlier (Kip Up, skill trick, Tumble check) will save you. Instigating a grapple from prone can save you.

There are ways.

Also, you could hope the tripper runs out of AoOs for the round. Without Combat Reflexes (if you get that lucky) that'd just be after one AoO.

[The_Snark]

It seems to me that the attack of opportunity takes place before the person finishes getting up—meaning you make your attack of opportunity, and then they get up. If you choose to make it a trip, you're tripping a prone person, which is pretty pointless.

It's not made clear in the rules, but that is how other attacks of opportunity work. If someone provokes by moving out of a threatened square, you make the attack before they actually move (or else you would need a reach weapon to hit them at all). If someone provokes by casting a spell, you hit them before they cast the spell (or else hitting them wouldn't disrupt the spell at all). By extension, if someone provokes by standing up, you hit them before they've stood up, so you can't very well trip them.

[Delta Nu Delta]

The 3.5 FAQ is very clear. The AoO occurs before the action that triggered it. Thus, the AoO can't be used to trip you because you're still prone when you initiate standing up.

However, if they trip you, get the follow up attack, and and then ready a trip attempt for when you stand, then you're actually pretty screwed. It's not the end of the world, though. Like Fax said - allies can save you. D&D is a team sport. Use your team.

Also, crawling is a full-round action that moves you 5 feet that provokes an attack of opportunity. It's probably the worst option on the table.

[Tsotha-lanti]

However, if they trip you, get the follow up attack, and and then ready a trip attempt for when you stand, then you're actually pretty screwed. It's not the end of the world, though. Like Fax said - allies can save you. D&D is a team sport. Use your team.

Fortunately, they don't have two standard actions in a round and can't do this.

[Nerd-o-rama]

However, if they trip you, get the follow up attack, and and then ready a trip attempt for when you stand, then you're actually pretty screwed. It's not the end of the world, though. Like Fax said - allies can save you. D&D is a team sport. Use your team.Improved Trip gives you an extra attack at the same bonus as the one you used to trip, not a standard action. You can't use your free attack to ready an action.

Otherwise, what you and others are saying is correct; the AoO for standing occurs when the target is still prone; you cannot "triplock" a person using just AoOs, not even with Improved Trip.

It's still two attacks at +4 for the price of one, though, and it wastes the opponent's move action, so it's a potent strategy, especially with Combat Reflexes.

[Ridureyu]

Yeah, he be tripping, yo.

[Delta Nu Delta]

Improved Trip gives you an extra attack at the same bonus as the one you used to trip, not a standard action. You can't use your free attack to ready an action.

Otherwise, what you and others are saying is correct; the AoO for standing occurs when the target is still prone; you cannot "triplock" a person using just AoOs, not even with Improved Trip.

It's still two attacks at +4 for the price of one, though, and it wastes the opponent's move action, so it's a potent strategy, especially with Combat Reflexes.

Yeah, in my mind the initial trip attack was an AoO, say from moving out of a threatened square. That wasn't clear at all from my post though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It doesn't work at all:

Example 1: Opponent trips PC. PC tries to get up and provokes an AoO. When Opponent takes his AoO PC is still considered Prone, so a Trip attempt on the AoO accomplishes nothing. PC ends up standing, and Opponent's AoO was wasted if he tried to use it to trip.

Example 2: PC provokes an AoO from Opponent for whatever reason, and Opponent uses it to Trip PC. On Opponent's turn he Readies an action to Trip PC after he's finished getting up. PC gets up, Opponent AoOs as normal. PC is now standing, Opponent takes his readied action and Trips PC. PC can just get up again, provoking another AoO but he ends up standing at the end of his turn. On the following round PC gets to act before Opponent due to the readied action, at which time he'll be standing.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Yeah, in my mind the initial trip attack was an AoO, say from moving out of a threatened square. That wasn't clear at all from my post though.

Round 1:
Char1: Moves, provoking.
Char2: AoO to trip, succeeds.
Char2: Free attack.
(If Char1 only used their first move action, they can now use their standard action to stand up, breaking this whole cycle.)
Char2: Ready action to trip once opponent stands up. (If Char1 stood up, Char2 is too late here and has to trip, losing the chance to ready a trip, breaking this whole cycle.)
Round 2:
Char1: Starts standing up, provoking.
Char2: AoO.
Char1: Stands up, triggering readied action.
Char2: Readied action to trip, succeeds.
Char2: Free attack.
Char1: Stands up again (possibly provoking an AoO as above, but no trip), and Char2 has no action readied because it's still Char1's turn.
Char2: :(

Note, too, that an "infinite trip loop" also nonsensically assumes success every time. What's up with that?

It's effective, but it's never an endless loop, because you can stand up twice in a round, but only ready one trip action per round. (And because you won't succeed every time.)

Edit: Nuts, Biffoniacus Furiou already said it. Well, maybe a break-down helps anyway...

[Thurbane]

Provided they make the trip check every time, and nobody comes to interrupt them, I guess it is. However, the rules for Withdrawing and taking a five foot step don't say you can't do it while prone.
Not entirely correct - according to the Rules Compendium, you cannot take a 5 foot step while prone (or while your movement is hindered in any other way). Also, according to the actions is combat section, you can only crawl 5 feet as a move action, which provokes AoO.

Aslo, it's debatable whether you could use the withdraw action or not. I don't believe being prone would count as restricted activity in the same way the surprise round does, so you'd probably only end up moving 5 feet and still drawing AoO.

[BobVosh]

Fortunately, they don't have two standard actions in a round and can't do this.


It doesn't work at all:

Example 1: Opponent trips PC. PC tries to get up and provokes an AoO. When Opponent takes his AoO PC is still considered Prone, so a Trip attempt on the AoO accomplishes nothing. PC ends up standing, and Opponent's AoO was wasted if he tried to use it to trip.

Example 2: PC provokes an AoO from Opponent for whatever reason, and Opponent uses it to Trip PC. On Opponent's turn he Readies an action to Trip PC after he's finished getting up. PC gets up, Opponent AoOs as normal. PC is now standing, Opponent takes his readied action and Trips PC. PC can just get up again, provoking another AoO but he ends up standing at the end of his turn. On the following round PC gets to act before Opponent due to the readied action, at which time he'll be standing.


Round 1:
Char1: Moves, provoking.
Char2: AoO to trip, succeeds.
Char2: Free attack.
(If Char1 only used their first move action, they can now use their standard action to stand up, breaking this whole cycle.)
Char2: Ready action to trip once opponent stands up. (If Char1 stood up, Char2 is too late here and has to trip, losing the chance to ready a trip, breaking this whole cycle.)
Round 2:
Char1: Starts standing up, provoking.
Char2: AoO.
Char1: Stands up, triggering readied action.
Char2: Readied action to trip, succeeds.
Char2: Free attack.
Char1: Stands up again (possibly provoking an AoO as above, but no trip), and Char2 has no action readied because it's still Char1's turn.
Char2: :(

Note, too, that an "infinite trip loop" also nonsensically assumes success every time. What's up with that?

It's effective, but it's never an endless loop, because you can stand up twice in a round, but only ready one trip action per round. (And because you won't succeed every time.)

Edit: Nuts, Biffoniacus Furiou already said it. Well, maybe a break-down helps anyway...

This looks like a request for a choker! Choker-Tripper ftw!

[Keld Denar]

Anklets of Translocation (MIC). Swift action 10' teleport, twice a day. DIRT CHEAP at about 1,200g. Get a couple even. After any encounter in which you use them, swap em out for a fresh pair. No attunement to worry about.

Nowhere does it say that you have to be in the same position after a teleport as before. Therefore, you could easily teleport behind your tripper, possibly into a flank, and proceed to full attack. Hopefully you will either knock him out, or wound him so your allies can finish him off.

These puppies also work for getting out of grapples and avoiding AoO kill zones on up to gargantuan creatures or large creatures with exceptional reach.

[Gerion]

Anklets of Translocation. Swift action 10' teleport, twice a day. DIRT CHEAP at about 1,200g.

Hey those sound pretty cool, in wich book can i find them?

And i have a question about fighting prone. Our DM says that when you`re prone you lose your reach (or it is decreasing by 5 feet).
And for that without using a reach weapon you are screwed because you have to move in the same square as your opponent.
Is he right about this, i could not find it in the rules.

[BobVosh]

Hey those sound pretty cool, in wich book can i find them?

And i have a question about fighting prone. Our DM says that when you`re prone you lose your reach (or it is decreasing by 5 feet).
And for that without using a reach weapon you are screwed because you have to move in the same square as your opponent.
Is he right about this, i could not find it in the rules.

1. MIC
2. Never heard of it.

[Keld Denar]

And i have a question about fighting prone. Our DM says that when you`re prone you lose your reach (or it is decreasing by 5 feet).
And for that without using a reach weapon you are screwed because you have to move in the same square as your opponent.
Is he right about this, i could not find it in the rules.

Your DM is making up rules that don't exist. Technically, its his right as a DM to do so, but it could severly hose a player if used abusively by a DM. This brings us to Saph's Golden Rule of D&D. Don't be a douche.

[Thurbane]

Using the anklets to get out of a trip loop or grapple is perfectly acceptable.

Saying that you bamf out of a teleport you started as prone in a standing position reeks of cheese to me. The rules mightn't say anything against it, but they sure as heck don't say anything for it either...

[BobVosh]

Using the anklets to get out of a trip loop or grapple is perfectly acceptable.

Saying that you bamf out of a teleport you started as prone in a standing position reeks of cheese to me. The rules mightn't say anything against it, but they sure as heck don't say anything for it either...

I don't understand why. It is classic teleporting stuff. Nightcrawler, and any other teleporter always abused the heck out of weird/nifty teleporting thing.

This came up in 4th ED just a week ago with an eldarin and a needlefang drake swarm (which the DM was told not to use, but nerfed the damage and it still decimated the party)

1st and 2nd ed was all about using bizarre magic items to do things they weren't obviously intended to do, when did this change?

Excluding Tippy's buff-wagon "traps" sort of thing of course.

[Thurbane]

Oh, indeed it is in the tradition of Nightcrawler et al.

If your DM wants to rule it that way, fine. But in a RAW game, it's probably not going to fly. Ascribing additional benefits to spells and effects that aren't specifically spelled out can (and does) lead to all sorts of problems.

[Keld Denar]

Oh, indeed it is in the tradition of Nightcrawler et al.

If your DM wants to rule it that way, fine. But in a RAW game, it's probably not going to fly. Prescribing additional benefits to spells and effects that aren't specifically spelled out can (and does) lead to all sorts of problems.

How is teleporting via Anklets from prone to standing unbalanced? It consumes your swift action for the round, as does the Kip Up skill trick. It has both a monitary cost (the cash for the item) and an opportunity cost (you aren't wearing Boots of Speed or other more relevant melee boots). And its limited to twice a day per set of Anklets you buy (which a DM could limit based on availability). Seems all kinds of balanced to me.

Also, you should note that 9/10 times while grappling, you aren't prone. Unless the grappler succeeds in a grapple check to move the grapple (to fall prone), you and him/her are still standing, since nothing has occured to make either of you prone.

[Thurbane]

...and Boots of Striding and Springing might also give you a lavender fresh scent - point is, the rules don't say that they do. Adding that to them is pure houserule territory.

It's not necessarily even about balance. If a player asked me if his Magic Missile spells could be cream pies made of force that slam into an opponents face for exactly the same effect, it isn't going to effect balance, but it's certainly not RAW.

In this case, however, you are giving an additional benefit to an item that simply does not exist in the rules. Teleport does not spell out that you don't re-appear with all of your hitpoints restored. Would you say it's reasonable to assume that you do?

[Keld Denar]

So would you not allow a player to teleport into a squeezing condition, if space was limited? Your body has moved, why does it have to stay in the same position? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but this just seems like one of those places where it doesn't say either way, but logic and balance would dictate you can.

Quit trying to use Reductio Ad Absurdum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum) on me. Everyone knows that teleport not only restores all hp, but also clears all status ailments and grants the caster a single Wish, as per the spell, without requiring the xp be paid.

See, I can do it too! :P

[BobVosh]

We are talking about a spell that teleports through space. It can and does rotate you. Otherwise you would land on your head if you teleported to the otherside the globe.

As for magic missile I'm pretty sure it says you can color them somewhere. Somewhere else there is a feat or class feature to disguise them with a +2 bonus to fooling spellcraft checks (I will fix this once I find it).

[Talic]

Here's the thing.

It's balanced. It really is. 1200 gp for what you describe using it for is not OP.

So would a pair of boots that let you run across water for 10 rounds a day for 12,000 gp.

Problem is, Boots of Speed don't say they do that, so they don't.

The item makes no mention of making any status changes. It moves you, that's it.

Prone is a status condition. There are rules in place for removing it.

An amulet that stops poison won't remove Nauseated.

Why should one that moves you remove Prone.

Bear in mind, the other examples you use, such as Kip up, and the like, Specifically say that you can change from prone to standing. Anklets do not.

EDIT: Other side of the globe? We're talking a 10 foot move. Even the spell it's based on won't move you across a globe. It makes no mention of changing your rotation relative to gravity. Again, why would you?

EDIT2: For the magic missile, you're looking for Thematic Spell feat.

[Curmudgeon]

Also, one can make a DC 35 Tumble check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#freeStand) ... to stand without provoking. That's incorrect.
Free Stand: With a DC 35 Tumble check result, you can stand up from prone as a free action (instead of as a move action). This use of the skill still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. Your reference is to the 3.0 Epic rule. In 3.0 rules standing from prone did not provoke attacks of opportunity, so there was of course no mention of AoOs associated with this skill use. Complete Adventurer reprinted the skill use rule, and added the highlighted note.

[KevLar]

Also, note the feat Combat Acrobat from PHBII. Prerequisites are 9 ranks of Balance and Tumble, BUT, among other things:

If an effect causes you to fall prone, you can make a DC 20 Balance check to remain on your feet.
If I'm not mistaken, that means that there's absolutely nothing a tripper can do against a Combat Acrobat who makes his Balance check.

[Talic]

If I'm not mistaken, that means that there's absolutely nothing a tripper can do against a Combat Acrobat who makes his Balance check.

Correct. Which is why it's a good idea for trippers to also have Stand Still, or Large and In Charge.

[Thurbane]

Quit trying to use Reductio Ad Absurdum on me.
Is that a Harry Potter spell? :smalltongue:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but this just seems like one of those places where it doesn't say either way, but logic and balance would dictate you can.
Is there a fancy Latin term for "We'll agree to disagree, but PS, I'm right!"?

The item makes no mention of making any status changes. It moves you, that's it.

Prone is a status condition. There are rules in place for removing it.

An amulet that stops poison won't remove Nauseated.

Why should one that moves you remove Prone.

Bear in mind, the other examples you use, such as Kip up, and the like, Specifically say that you can change from prone to standing. Anklets do not.
This is what I was trying to say, only more eloquent and with less snark.

[Talic]

No, it's a fallacy.

Basic meaning is when you carry a point which is possibly valid in the middle ground, and you carry it to the farthest extreme possible, so that it's just silly, and argue based on the silly premise, rather than the original one.

Can also be considered a form of Strawman.

[Thurbane]

No, it's a fallacy.

Basic meaning is when you carry a point which is possibly valid in the middle ground, and you carry it to the farthest extreme possible, so that it's just silly, and argue based on the silly premise, rather than the original one.

Can also be considered a form of Strawman.
Um yeah, I was kinda making a joke. :smallbiggrin:

[Nerd-o-rama]

There are no jokes on giantitp. Only rage and hatred.

[Thurbane]

You think GitP is bad, try the WotC forums sometime. :smalleek:

Brutal, man, brutal! :smallbiggrin:

[Curmudgeon]

Also, note the feat Combat Acrobat from PHBII. Prerequisites are 9 ranks of Balance and Tumble, BUT, among other things:

If I'm not mistaken, that means that there's absolutely nothing a tripper can do against a Combat Acrobat who makes his Balance check. With enough Balance ranks you don't even need another feat. A straight Balance check (with a -10 penalty) can be used instead of a STR or DEX check to resist being tripped (see Complete Adventurer). Since skill ranks can increase faster than the STR mod of the character attempting the trip, this eventually gets to be a guaranteed win for the Rogue with Skill Mastery.

[Zen Master]

In this case, however, you are giving an additional benefit to an item that simply does not exist in the rules. Teleport does not spell out that you don't re-appear with all of your hitpoints restored. Would you say it's reasonable to assume that you do?

Totally reasonable. If teleport can take you apart on the molecular level, fold you through the various dimensions of prime material space - then certainly it can also detect and repair minor molecular inconsistencies, such as swordcuts.

We're talking about magic here, after all. Nothing is impossible.

Of course, basically, you could say the same for all spells.

[jcsw]

You think GitP is bad, try the WotC forums sometime. :smalleek:

Brutal, man, brutal! :smallbiggrin:

Internetz is serious buisness.

[Tokiko Mima]

True Strike also makes you bowl a perfect 300 game. They didn't put that in the SRD because WotC wants to keep their ace in the hole for when big money is on the line. :smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

That's incorrect. Your reference is to the 3.0 Epic rule. In 3.0 rules standing from prone did not provoke attacks of opportunity, so there was of course no mention of AoOs associated with this skill use. Complete Adventurer reprinted the skill use rule, and added the highlighted note.

...which is a crock of...well, a crock, because free actions don't provoke.

[Delta Nu Delta]

Round 1:
Char1: Moves, provoking.
Char2: AoO to trip, succeeds.
Char2: Free attack.
(If Char1 only used their first move action, they can now use their standard action to stand up, breaking this whole cycle.)
Char2: Ready action to trip once opponent stands up. (If Char1 stood up, Char2 is too late here and has to trip, losing the chance to ready a trip, breaking this whole cycle.)
Round 2:
Char1: Starts standing up, provoking.
Char2: AoO.
Char1: Stands up, triggering readied action.
Char2: Readied action to trip, succeeds.
Char2: Free attack.
Char1: Stands up again (possibly provoking an AoO as above, but no trip), and Char2 has no action readied because it's still Char1's turn.
Char2: :(

Note, too, that an "infinite trip loop" also nonsensically assumes success every time. What's up with that?

It's effective, but it's never an endless loop, because you can stand up twice in a round, but only ready one trip action per round. (And because you won't succeed every time.)

Edit: Nuts, Biffoniacus Furiou already said it. Well, maybe a break-down helps anyway...

I understand this. I suppose my definition of "pretty screwed" is not an infinite trip loop, but eating 3 attacks.

Now, it can get a little more tricky if the readied action is to trip someone when they begin to move away. But, you can still escape from it. And, if they're readying actions, you're not eating a full attack from them.

[Curmudgeon]

...which is a crock of...well, a crock, because free actions don't provoke. No, that's only the usual case.
Free actions don’t take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Here's a specific example from the core rules of a free action provoking:
The time required for you to reload your chosen type of crossbow is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow) or a move action (for a heavy crossbow). Reloading a crossbow still provokes an attack of opportunity.

[Fax Celestis]

No, that's only the usual case. Here's a specific example from the core rules of a free action provoking:

So lemme get this straight.

A free action represents an action that takes almost no effort, but sometimes provokes.

A swift action or immediate action, even if emulating an ability that normally would provoke (such as a quickened spell) never provokes, despite taking more effort than a free action.

...how does that make sense, really?

[Curmudgeon]

So lemme get this straight.
...
A swift action or immediate action, even if emulating an ability that normally would provoke (such as a quickened spell) never provokes, despite taking more effort than a free action. You're jumping to conclusions again, Fax. It's never stated that all swift and immediate actions don't provoke AoOs. That statement is only made about spellcasting, and Quicken Spell has always stated:
Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Here's what Complete Arcane said when it explained swift and immediate actions.

Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Tome of Battle has a bunch of maneuvers that take swift actions to activate. But there's no statement that these maneuvers don't provoke -- only specific class features for Crusaders, Swordsages, and Warblades that make them not provoke. A maneuver gained via the Martial Study feat uses a swift action, but the rules don't say whether that swift action provokes AoOs.

[Glimbur]

Hey those sound pretty cool, in wich book can i find them?

And i have a question about fighting prone. Our DM says that when you`re prone you lose your reach (or it is decreasing by 5 feet).
And for that without using a reach weapon you are screwed because you have to move in the same square as your opponent.
Is he right about this, i could not find it in the rules.

I've always heard it that you don't threaten while prone so you can't take AoO's, but you still have your normal reach. Don't have a source for that though.

[Fax Celestis]

You're jumping to conclusions again, Fax. It's never stated that all swift and immediate actions don't provoke AoOs. That statement is only made about spellcasting, and Quicken Spell has always stated: Here's what Complete Arcane said when it explained swift and immediate actions.
Tome of Battle has a bunch of maneuvers that take swift actions to activate. But there's no statement that these maneuvers don't provoke -- only specific class features for Crusaders, Swordsages, and Warblades that make them not provoke. A maneuver gained via the Martial Study feat uses a swift action, but the rules don't say whether that swift action provokes AoOs.

Can you find me an example where a swift or immediate action does provoke? I'm hard pressed to even think of a possibility for one.

[LibraryOgre]

I love the Knockdown feat. Do 10 damage, make a trip attempt. Since you have to have improved trip, if you succeed, you get to attack them again.

It's the beat-stick fun feat!

[Lycar]

Hasn't that been errata'd? :smallconfused:

See here (http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-20517.html): "Q. If I use the Knock-Down feat to trip an opponent, can I get a free attack from my Improved Trip feat?

A. Nope. You have to use an attack to trip an opponent and then get an attack. You get a free action to trip your opponent with this feat (ie - you haven't given up an attack to trip them, you have already taken it, so you do not get another one)."

Lycar

[Tacoma]

From the SRD:

"You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness"

Being prone is a condition and has nothing to do with the surface you are sitting on or the light level.

1: Tripper trips. Then he gets his free attack for Improved Trip.
2: Victim attacks once at -4 to hit for being Prone, takes his 5' shuffle, and stands up as a Move Action. Since he is out of range the tripper cannot take his AoO.
3: Tripper shuffles up, trips, gets free attack.

We continue for a long time but the victim is screwed because he's always wasting his Move action standing up. The Tripper is always getting his full actions minus a 5' shuffle.

Of course the victim can just have spent a lot of skill points on Balance. In order to counter the Improved Trip feat he needs to pretty much max it out every level. Or he can have a high Tumble (again, maxing it out every level). Or he can buy the Kip Up feat.

Point is, the tripper spent one feat and his feat can be countered by his enemies spending just one feat or one skill point per level.

Tripping must be done in combat either unarmed or using certain weapons. Otherwise equal combatants have no modifiers. The attacker uses STR but the defender can use the higher of STR or DEX. This gives the defender a bit of assistance since while the tripper will of course have maximum STR the defender can have focused on STR or DEX and still perform well.

It's not unbalanced I think, just really irritating. And unfortunately, unless EVERY ENEMY is going to have Kip Up or high Balance / Tumble (which would be stupid) then the Trip Fighter is a very high powered choice. And as we all know, if something seems to always be the best choice it should probably be weakened a little until it's not guaranteed to be the best choice.

[Curmudgeon]

Can you find me an example where a swift or immediate action does provoke? I'm hard pressed to even think of a possibility for one. The one that immediately comes to mind is the Sudden Leap maneuver:
You can make a Jump check as a swift action and move the distance determined by your check result. You provoke attacks of opportunity with this movement

[Fax Celestis]

The one that immediately comes to mind is the Sudden Leap maneuver:

Yeah, but not only is that provoking from movement (which you always do except in very special instances), it's also explicitly laid out that you provoke. One would think, then, that since they need to specify you do provoke, you don't normally provoke.

[LibraryOgre]

Hasn't that been errata'd? :smallconfused:

See here (http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-20517.html): "Q. If I use the Knock-Down feat to trip an opponent, can I get a free attack from my Improved Trip feat?

A. Nope. You have to use an attack to trip an opponent and then get an attack. You get a free action to trip your opponent with this feat (ie - you haven't given up an attack to trip them, you have already taken it, so you do not get another one)."


However, when it appeared in SRD versions, this was not corrected.

[Keld Denar]

It's not unbalanced I think, just really irritating. And unfortunately, unless EVERY ENEMY is going to have Kip Up or high Balance / Tumble (which would be stupid) then the Trip Fighter is a very high powered choice. And as we all know, if something seems to always be the best choice it should probably be weakened a little until it's not guaranteed to be the best choice.

Tripping is only a viable tactic if the campaign involves primarily humanoid opponents. Any time you start getting into more monsterous monsters, size, stability, and str scaling happen at a much more rapid pace, faster than a PC can keep up with much past level 6. Thus, its actually SELDOM a viable tactic, unless you know for certain that the bulk of your foes are going to be orcs with class levels, or similar. Unless you invest a TON of resources to be the best tripper, you won't even have a chance, and if your opponent sucessfully defends against your trip, and counter trips you, you either suck up the prone condition, or drop your weapon and kiss your full attack progression goodbye.

[lord_khaine]

besides this, unless the tripper has better reach there is nothing to stop his prone opponent from just eating the -4 penalty to hit, and either trip the tripper back or smash him in the face.

[Tacoma]

Against a Giant Spider I assume you'd just not bother tripping ;)

And as well, it's overpowered for enemy characters because they will always be fighting the PCs who are (who in all cases should be unless Polymorphed) Medium or Small humanoids.

If your DM allows you to play an Ankheg with three templates and six prestige classes ... I think game balance is not really an issue in that type of game.

I agree it's not the best choice in all situations (no choice is) so perhaps it's an issue of how often we each think the PCs would be fighting tripworthy opponents. Maybe some campaigns feature more human types and some campaigns feature fights mostly against large monsters.

I think a fight between Trippers with Kip Up would be ... no that would probably just be pretty boring.

What you need is a feat in the Trip chain that, if you're Prone and you attack with Improved Trip, the feat automatically stands you up instead of giving you the free attack on the tripped foe.

Now a fight between two of THOSE would be entertaining anyway.

[LibraryOgre]

I want to play 3.x again just so I can play a beat-down fighter.

[Curmudgeon]

Yeah, but not only is that provoking from movement (which you always do except in very special instances), it's also explicitly laid out that you provoke. One would think, then, that since they need to specify you do provoke, you don't normally provoke. No, that doesn't make sense, because they have multiple specific statements that work the exact opposite way, too.
When an opponent adjacent to you moves, you can initiate this maneuver to immediately move to any square adjacent to her as soon as she stops moving, as long as the distance you cover is less than or equal to your speed. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
While you are in this stance, you can make an immediate 5-foot step each time an opponent attacks you. ... This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If they feel that they need to explicitly state that 5' steps don't provoke AoOs when taken as immediate actions, then it seems pretty clear that no default rule has been established.

[Tacoma]

Yeah I think a lot of confusion occurs when people assume the game designers knew what they were doing. And that if they meant to say something, they would have said it. And so logically if they are infallible designers and they always write every rule they mean to include, and a rule is not included, its opposite must be true. Or, more likely, "whatever I want the rule to be right now must be true."

But this conclusion is built on false premises.

1: The game designers didn't know what they were doing. They are not infallible.
2: They don't include rules for everything. Show me their rules for tipping wait staff in Dwarven taverns.
3: The rules are often scattered among many pages and in some cases among many books, the FAQ, the errata, and various "official" opinions by Wizards staff on the boards.

Basically what I'm trying to say is if they don't say specifically in Case X, then in Case X you must make up your own thing. In a way you're paying for their failures. Heck, just chuck the AoO system altogether and you'll be happier.

Well, your Trip-monkey Spiked Chain-wielding Whirlwind Great Cleave munchkins won't be happy. But maybe then they'll create a character instead of a minmaxed block of statistics.

[Kantolin]

Well, your Trip-monkey Spiked Chain-wielding Whirlwind Great Cleave munchkins won't be happy. But maybe then they'll create a character instead of a minmaxed block of statistics.

Like leap attacking pouncers. :P

[Muad'dib]

Well, your Trip-monkey Spiked Chain-wielding Whirlwind Great Cleave munchkins won't be happy. But maybe then they'll create a character instead of a minmaxed block of statistics.

Because it's impossible to play such a character and actually have roleplaying in mind...

[Keld Denar]

Because it's impossible to play such a character and actually have roleplaying in mind...

Especially considering Munchkin should never be mentioned in the same sentance as Whirlwind Attack OR Great Cleave...

[TheCountAlucard]

Show me their rules for tipping wait staff in Dwarven taverns.

You might look at the rules for Overrun. :smalltongue:

But yeah, you certainly make a good point.

[Kaiyanwang]

Especially considering Munchkin should never be mentioned in the same sentance as Whirlwind Attack OR Great Cleave...

:smallbiggrin: Lol so true

[Muad'dib]

Especially considering Munchkin should never be mentioned in the same sentance as Whirlwind Attack OR Great Cleave...

I always thought all munchkins were 18 dex 18 int gray elves with chaos shuffle and vow of poverty whose only purpose in life is to give the dm a migraine. But then again, views of munchkinism vary greatly. Not a word I really like seeing thrown at melee at all.

[Jayabalard]

Because it's impossible to play such a character and actually have roleplaying in mind...correct


Especially considering Munchkin should never be mentioned in the same sentance as Whirlwind Attack OR Great Cleave... I don't see why not. Being a munchkin doesn't actually apply that they're actually good at min/maxing.

[Starbuck_II]

correct

I don't see why not. Being a munchkin doesn't actually apply that they're actually good at min/maxing.

I thought we referred to Posers as Posers? Calling a spade a spade and all...

[Keld Denar]

I thought we referred to Posers as Posers? Calling a spade a spade and all...

Some munchkins just cheat. Their charcter doesn't even utilize creative use of game mechanics, they just write down +436546 to hit and call it a day. True optimizers seldom work outside of RAW.

[Curmudgeon]

Some munchkins just cheat. I saw a character sheet with "+5 Tome of Clear Thought (gift from wealthy parents)". I kid you not. Pretty nice to get a 137,500 gp boost at 1st level.

[Jayabalard]

I thought we referred to Posers as Posers? Calling a spade a spade and all...I'm not really sure what you're driving at. Munchkins aren't necessary any good at optimizing. They may be trying to optimize, but just being a munchkin doesn't imply any particular degree of success. Like any other optimizer it's possible that they just fail miserably.

Some of them don't even try to optimize; they just cheat. So writing down whirlwind and great cleave without actually qualifying for them or burning feats for them is certainly in line with this type of munchkinism.

At the core though, the thing that sets munchkins apart from other players who cheat and other players that optimize is the fact that they don't have roleplaying in mind at all.

[Thurbane]

Because it's impossible to play such a character and actually have roleplaying in mind...
Not impossible, but highly improbable.

[Muad'dib]

Not impossible, but highly improbable.

How so? Does writing down improved trip and whirlwind down on my sheet somehow turn off the roleplay center of my brain?

[Muad'dib]

correct

Guess again.


I don't see why not. Being a munchkin doesn't actually apply that they're actually good at min/maxing.

Yet people don't call those who are bad at power gaming and bending/breaking the rules munchkins. If someone's just writing large numbers down on their character sheet they're flat out cheating. The definition of munchkin, as written out on this board even, does not imply such flat out cheating.

[Jayabalard]

Guess again. It's not a guess;
The key word that lets you know this is munchkin. That's the part that makes it impossible for this person to be actually have roleplaying in mind


Yet people don't call those who are bad at power gaming and bending/breaking the rules munchkins. Yes, they do; there are multiple examples of people using the term in that way in this very thread. It's a pretty widespread usage, which is probably why cheating is a feature in both the munchkin rpg and munchkin card game,

[Person_Man]

According to the official FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) pgs 71-72, you cannot Trip someone who is standing up from being Prone.


When a character gets up from prone, when does the attack of opportunity take place? When he is still prone? When he is standing? Can the attacker choose when to attack? In one case, the attacker can get a +4 bonus to hit.
In the other, he can make another trip attack.

All attacks of opportunity happen before the actions that trigger them (see
Chapter 8 in the PH). When you make an attack of opportunity against someone who’s getting up, your target is effectively prone, and therefore cannot be tripped. You could ready an action to trip a prone foe after he gets up, however.

I'd add that Trip builds in general are overrated. Plenty of enemies have high Str or Dex and/or size and/or stability bonuses, and are very unlikely to be Tripped. And you'll eventually you'll fail and may have to drop your weapon to avoid being Tripped. IMO you're much better off just taking Stand Still for battlefield control when you need it, and investing the rest of your resources into other feats.

[Muad'dib]

It's not a guess;
The key word that lets you know this is munchkin. That's the part that makes it impossible for this person to be actually have roleplaying in mind

Let's try this again with you reading what I responded to in the first place. Tacoma said: "Well, your Trip-monkey Spiked Chain-wielding Whirlwind Great Cleave munchkins won't be happy." suggesting here that one cannot play someone using a spiked chain with trip, whirlwind and cleave as anything other than a one dimensional trip monkey going so far as describing such a play style as munchkinism. and we all know how insanely min/maxed and character has to be in order to trip people And where does a tripping character even break the rules. As far as I'm aware it only takes one high stat and a handful of feats to get a good trip monkey leaving you plenty of room for alternate focuses and *gasp* character development. So I fail to see how someone playing a Tripmonkey automatically fails to ever have roleplaying in mind. Let's not forget that Spiked chain is not the only effective tripping weapon with reach even and there are a number of polearms I could use instead but I still fail to see how that's even relevant to my ability to role play such a character well. One final note: tripping in real life as a combat tactic makes sense. A real life opponent on the ground is much easier to disable than one standing. Why I all of a sudden have to justify such a tactic against cries of munchkinism is beyond me at this point.

[Muad'dib]

According to the official FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) pgs 71-72, you cannot Trip someone who is standing up from being Prone.

Which makes the challenge of keeping someone locked down while in your reach all the more fun BWA HAHAHAHAHA!!!

[Jayabalard]

Let's try this again with you reading what I responded to in the first place.I'm perfectly aware of the context.


Tacoma said: "Well, your Trip-monkey Spiked Chain-wielding Whirlwind Great Cleave munchkins won't be happy." suggesting here that one cannot play someone using a spiked chain with trip, whirlwind and cleave as anything other than a one dimensional trip monkey going so far as describing such a play style as munchkinism. Not so; I don't agree that this implies anything of the sort. "Trip-monkey", "spiked chain wielding" "whirlwind great cleave" are all modifiers to the word "munchkin" ... they specify the particular type of munchkin that would be made unhappy. Nothing is being said or implied about anyone who is not a munchkin.


So I fail to see how someone playing a Tripmonkey automatically fails to ever have roleplaying in mind.Your problem is that you're overgeneralizing what he said. That's not the character he's talking about. He's talking about a tripmonkey munchkin. Like I said above, it's the munchkin part that precludes roleplaying, not the tripmonkey part.

[Muad'dib]

Your problem is that you're overgeneralizing what he said. That's not the character he's talking about. He's talking about a tripmonkey munchkin. Like I said above, it's the munchkin part that precludes roleplaying, not the tripmonkey part.

No he suggested scrapping the AOO system and said no one would be unhappy with it except trip monkey munchkins, suggesting that the only people who would be adverse to scrapping it must be munchkins, even though many well role-played trip builds would also reject such a suggestion.

[ericgrau]

Exactly because it's a STR check, there are a million ways to optimize it.
1) If you have decent INT, 3 levels of Factotum add your Int modifier (on top of strength).
2) If you have decent charisma, 1 level of Marshal adds your Cha modifier (on top of strength).
3) There are many items that boost strength checks in MIC, and some (who work with charges, 1 or 3 times per day) are dirt cheap. Same for opposed trip checks in particular.
4) Size matters. :smalltongue: With a +4 for every larger category, you can use enlarge person (cast by your friends or through items/potions), or you can pick a Large (or larger) race, or you can take a Goliath (and half-giant, I think? what was it? I don't remember) who have Powerful Build and count as larger, or you can wildshape to something awful.

EDIT
5) Tome of Battle and Setting Sun maneuvers.

Lots of options.

Well, it's not hard to eventually avoid in core, anyway. Once you get into other books anything can be (and has been) broken.

[Keld Denar]

Well, it's not hard to eventually avoid in core, anyway. Once you get into other books anything can be (and has been) broken.

Thats a stupid excuse, to which I reply with DROOD20. WS into a Dire Wolf and trip him WHILE eating his face WHILE casting spells. Core. Lets not turn this into a core vs non-core issue. The point is, tripping sucks, and scales poorly unless you invest a ton of resources into it, resources which could be better spent doing other things, like increasing damage or survivability.

[Muad'dib]

Round 1:
Char1: Moves, provoking.
Char2: AoO to trip, succeeds.
Char2: Free attack.
(If Char1 only used their first move action, they can now use their standard action to stand up, breaking this whole cycle.)
Char2: Ready action to trip once opponent stands up. (If Char1 stood up, Char2 is too late here and has to trip, losing the chance to ready a trip, breaking this whole cycle.)
Round 2:
Char1: Starts standing up, provoking.
Char2: AoO.
Char1: Stands up, triggering readied action.
Char2: Readied action to trip, succeeds.
Char2: Free attack.
Char1: Stands up again (possibly provoking an AoO as above, but no trip), and Char2 has no action readied because it's still Char1's turn.
Char2: :(

Note, too, that an "infinite trip loop" also nonsensically assumes success every time. What's up with that?

It's effective, but it's never an endless loop, because you can stand up twice in a round, but only ready one trip action per round. (And because you won't succeed every time.)

Edit: Nuts, Biffoniacus Furiou already said it. Well, maybe a break-down helps anyway...

Crusader fixes this for the tripper pretty cleanly by negating both 5-foot steps and withdrawal actions and possibly a number of others depending on how you interpret the first line saying "any" movement. It will essentially negate the need to ready an action to trip after they stand up because after they stand, any way they move is going to provoke.

So a question as it's not entirely clear to me. Will thicket of blades prevent opponents from tumbling through your threatened squares without provoking aoo's?

[Keld Denar]

So a question as it's not entirely clear to me. Will thicket of blades prevent opponents from tumbling through your threatened squares without provoking aoo's?

CustServe says yes it does prevent tumbling, IIRC.

[Jayabalard]

No he suggested scrapping the AOO system and said no one would be unhappy with it except trip monkey munchkins, suggesting that the only people who would be adverse to scrapping it must be munchkins, even though many well role-played trip builds would also reject such a suggestion.Nope. He said that you (the DM) would be happier, and that Trip-monkey Spiked Chain-wielding Whirlwind Great Cleave munchkins won't be happy. There's nothing stated or even implied about anyone else; he doesn't address them in any way. They may wind up happy, or they may wind up unhappy.

Personally, I don't see how that would, in and of itself, make anyone unhappy unless they're a in a fairly narrow group of poor optimizers that can't come up with anything good on their own. Anyone who's good at optimizing will just see it as a new challenge to come up with something else. But that's just my own perspective, and it doesn't really have anything to do with what Tacoma said.

[Curmudgeon]

CustServe says yes it does prevent tumbling, IIRC. Your memory is a bit fuzzy. It's actually the FAQ that says this.
If you are in the thicket of blades stance and an opponent tumbles past you, do you get an attack of opportunity?
Yes, you can make an attack of opportunity even if an opponent uses Tumble or other types of movement that would normally not allow you to make them, such as the Spring Attack feat.
This isn't backed up by RAW, of course. Both the Tumble skill and the Thicket of Blades stance descriptions use absolute terms to state the benefits of each. And by the Primary Sources rule, Tumble wins:
Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct.
...
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. So the official WotC position is that Tumble works as stated, regardless of what Thicket of Blades says, until an erratum says otherwise. The FAQ author, while paid by WotC, isn't allowed to make official rules statements -- just render a personal opinion in response to submitted questions.

So is that clear enough for you?

[Muad'dib]

Your memory is a bit fuzzy. It's actually the FAQ that says this.
This isn't backed up by RAW, of course. Both the Tumble skill and the Thicket of Blades stance descriptions use absolute terms to state the benefits of each. And by the Primary Sources rule, Tumble wins: So the official WotC position is that Tumble works as stated, regardless of what Thicket of Blades says, until an erratum says otherwise. The FAQ author, while paid by WotC, isn't allowed to make official rules statements -- just render a personal opinion in response to submitted questions.

So is that clear enough for you?

The Question comes up from the first line of Thicket of Blades though which says that any opponent you threaten that takes any kind of movement provokes and then it gives you two examples. So yes, while we know absolutely from the text that both withdraw and five-foot steps provoke while using the stance, it's still open to other forms of movement as the opening sentence is rather open-ended which leads to why I would ask such a question in the first place. It saddens me that there's nothing official to clear it up.

[Muad'dib]

Personally, I don't see how that would, in and of itself, make anyone unhappy unless they're a in a fairly narrow group of poor optimizers that can't come up with anything good on their own. Anyone who's good at optimizing will just see it as a new challenge to come up with something else. But that's just my own perspective, and it doesn't really have anything to do with what Tacoma said.

Or maybe some people like the idea of playing a melee control character for which there are very few ways outside of taking advantage of aoo's to actually make viable. And really, what difference does reach actually make if you scrap aoo's?


Edit: could someone please tell me why I was arguing here when I could have been enjoying my very first Weihnachtsmarkt???? I'm very serious. :smalleek:

Edit 2: corrected for proper tenses...

[Thurbane]

How so? Does writing down improved trip and whirlwind down on my sheet somehow turn off the roleplay center of my brain?
No, but then again, that isn't what the original statement was, is it? You've omitted a key word there - "munchkin". Please don't put words into my mouth if you are going to selectively edit what I am replying to. :smallwink:

[olentu]

The Question comes up from the first line of Thicket of Blades though which says that any opponent you threaten that takes any kind of movement provokes and then it gives you two examples. So yes, while we know absolutely from the text that both withdraw and five-foot steps provoke while using the stance, it's still open to other forms of movement as the opening sentence is rather open-ended which leads to why I would ask such a question in the first place. It saddens me that there's nothing official to clear it up.

Well to throw my opinion into the mix the way I interpret it this is a case of specific overriding general. Normally all movement would provoke except that things like tumbling, a 5-foot step, and the withdraw action specifically state that they do not provoke and so the specific statements override the general fact that moving out of a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity. Now thicket of blades says that all movement provokes however this part of the statement is in my opinion as general as the normal rules that moving out of a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity. However the stance then goes on to say that specifically when you are in this stance 5-foot steps do provoke and the withdraw action can not be used to count a square as not threatened. Now in my opinion the very general statement that all movement provokes is superseded by any specific exceptions that prevent an attack of opportunity from being provoked, such as tumbling movement, the war master's charge maneuver, etc.

[Muad'dib]

Well to throw my opinion into the mix the way I interpret it this is a case of specific overriding general. Normally all movement would provoke except that things like tumbling, a 5-foot step, and the withdraw action specifically state that they do not provoke and so the specific statements override the general fact that moving out of a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity. Now thicket of blades says that all movement provokes however this part of the statement is in my opinion as general as the normal rules that moving out of a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity. However the stance then goes on to say that specifically when you are in this stance 5-foot steps do provoke and the withdraw action can not be used to count a square as not threatened. Now in my opinion the very general statement that all movement provokes is superseded by any specific exceptions that prevent an attack of opportunity from being provoked, such as tumbling movement, the war master's charge maneuver, etc.

All they had to do for there to be no question at all was drop the first sentence and say "five-foot steps and withdraw actions from your threatened squares provoke attacks of opportunity while you're in this stance." Leaving open-ended statements in abilities is what causes problems like this in the first place. Even with it being relegated to just those two instances though, Thicket of Blades is still freaking awesome.

[KevLar]

IMO, Thicket of Blades is one of those things you need to ask your DM first, and plan later. I agree it's amazing even if you limit it to 5-foot steps and withdrawing.

A fighter with enough feats to spare and a bit of ToB - with Thicket of Blades - can do wonders in battlefield control. No, not wizard wonders, but still. Check this out: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Stand Still, Improved Combat Expertise, Defensive Opportunist, Stand Still, Thicket of Blades, and a guisarme. You can just stand there, in the middle of the fray, and hit or immobilize or (if you can) trip anything that moves within your reach. Improved Expertise with Defensive opportunist means you can reduce your entire BAB from your attack bonus and add it to your AC, but keep it for AoO attack rolls. You should be reasonably untouchable, and still whack people around you, on their turn.

More feats to spare? Lots of options. Knockdown (even errata'd), Defensive Throw (requires Dodge and Mobility), Deft Opportunist, Sidestep... If only you could fit them all.

Martial Monk gives you fighter bonus feats. 2 levels, therefore, give you 2 feats and the monk's unarmed strike, which is very important. Even with your hands full (say, with your guisarme), you threaten adjacent squares. You can trip people with a sweeping kick. No need to meddle with exotic whips (you'd provoke every time) and spiked chains (boring).

1 Monk Combat Reflexes (lvl), Combat Expertise (monk)
2 Monk Improved Trip (monk)
3 Fighter Stand Still (lvl), OPEN (fighter)
4 Fighter Improved Combat Expertise (fighter)
5 Fighter
6 Fighter Defensive Opportunist (fighter), Hold the line (lvl)
7 Fighter
8 Fighter OPEN (fighter)
9 Fighter Deft Opportunist (lvl)
10 Crusader thicket of blades

This is a controller. If you give him a whip and weapon finesse for the open feats, it's a pretty much SAD character: Dexterity all the way. With evasion, you can even try to stay in there while friendly fire from area spells falls on everyone's heads. On the other hand, if you want to deal damage, stay with the guisarme, take Power attack, keep Dexterity reasonably high for enough AoO (and a few prerequisites) and focus on Strength from then on. And if it gets to 15+ level, take Defensive Sweep. AoO if they move, AoO if they don't.

This character, I should note, is rather useless if your DM throws single ZOMGPWN monsters at you all the time. It's nice though if you (as a group) are into tactical warfare. I'd even try to take Tucker's Kobolds with that. :smallsmile:

[Keld Denar]

Only problem with your build is that without PA and with a super high dex but little str, your damage output is going to be very low. This presents a problem with Standstil, as the DC is based only on damage done. You do 15 points of damage? DC15. Thats easy to make, even around level 3-4 when you become viable at your chosen tactic. Also, tripping is Str based on the offensive, so having a high Dex/low Str makes your chance to trip foes unlikely, especially past level 6 where most things will be large+ and have higher str than you.

With PA and a decent str on top of an decent dex, you'd be a lot stronger at your chosen role, but then you have MAD. Which do you prioritize? Its a tough trade off.

archerpwr over on the CharOps boards put together a build he calls Lockdown2.0, which utilizes the monks PHBII ACF called Decisive Strike. It replaces flurry with a single attack that does double damage. Technically, all AoOs made for the rest of the round would also benefit from this double damage, making it much easier to hit unbeatable Standstill DCs.

[Lycar]

This presents a problem with Standstil, as the DC is based only on damage done. You do 15 points of damage? DC15.

Actually it's DC 10 + damage. So with 15 damage we look at a DC 25.

It is an interesting idea.

Of course, yes, if your GM's idea of getting you into a CR 'appropriate' encouter is just to flip the page of the MM with a creature of that level, you are not going to enjoy him much.

If your GM is a wee bit more creative and *gasp* actually lets your party fight against a larger group of weaker creatures, maybe a few 'lieutenant' types thrown in for good measure, then that concept can shine.

You know, like having the party come across humanoids every now and then. Against whom Disarm is actually usefull. Especially against an NPC Dervish.

It is just sometimes very strange that entire races/species seem to go extinct as soon as a party reaches a certain level...

Lycar