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Adumbration
2008-11-26, 07:33 AM
The Marshal base class from the Miniatures handbook. Is there a way of making an effective and fun character using just the Marshal class, without multiclassing? Low-level character, along the lines of 1-6, probably 3. Is it feasible?

Majority of books allowed, excluding some of the campaign setting specific stuff, magic item compedium and possible few other books I've forgotten about.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-26, 07:34 AM
What are the other party members? I've never had any experience with the class, but I'd guess that it is like a Bard in the sense that it works well in large parties.

Thurbane
2008-11-26, 07:41 AM
Here's the class in full for anyone not familiar:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b

It's a shame that MIC isn't allowed, there's some really nice items for Marshal's in there...

Adumbration
2008-11-26, 07:41 AM
I'm toying with an idea for a PbP game here on the forums, so I'm not sure about what party members would be up, but I also got curious about the class itself.

The Mormegil
2008-11-26, 07:58 AM
Hmmm... I was wonedring if there was a Marshal fix somewhere, along the lines of the Hexblade fix, which made it playable. As it is, it seems it isn't.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-26, 08:39 AM
What's wrong with the class, Mormegil?

hamishspence
2008-11-26, 08:50 AM
its too dependant on large groups to get any value out of. with a big squad of troops, marshal can make them deadlier. With a small group of adventurers, it tends to lose out to bard, cleric, White Raven swordsage or warblade.

Ryuuk
2008-11-26, 08:53 AM
Well, the way I see it the class seems kind of weak. Its class features amount to a few passive bonuses to certain checks, but aside from that, the medium Bab and d8 make it only a decent meleer.

It has a few gems, with a high Cha Art of War can be amazing on a tripper and Motivate Dexterity can make he whole party much more nimble. After level 2 you just get more of the same though. A 1 or 2 level dip (possibly 3 for the extra minor aura) can be great, but any more then that feels kind of flat.

The Mormegil
2008-11-26, 09:09 AM
Well, the way I see it the class seems kind of weak. Its class features amount to a few passive bonuses to certain checks, but aside from that, the medium Bab and d8 make it only a decent meleer.

It has a few gems, with a high Cha Art of War can be amazing on a tripper and Motivate Dexterity can make he whole party much more nimble. After level 2 you just get more of the same though. A 1 or 2 level dip (possibly 3 for the extra minor aura) can be great, but any more then that feels kind of flat.

This. Maily, the class's only worthful ability is the auras, which apart from the major's bonus do not progress enough to justify more than 1-3 levels. It can be useful in combination with some Cha-abusing build (Snowflake Wardance), but really loses out against bard, cleric, wizards and other spellcaster's buffing abilities. Yeah, I know, everybody is worse than a caster. But still, this class hasn't got anything that... well... appeals enough to make a Marshal. Art of War can be nice, but since you can have only one aura up at a time, it would be better if right after that you multiclassed into Sorcerer, or Bard. Or fighter, even, to get some usefulness in melee combat.

This is one of the "multiclassing dips only" classes. It's still better than the Samurai, but... no, really, the class as it is is bad.

At the very least I'd change the Bab to full, I'd cut the useless grant move action ability and add an ability that lets you mantain more than one aura at a time. The major auras bonuses do not scale well enough (I mean, it's just like inspire courage, which is one of the MANY class features of the bard and can be enhanced more easily - Song by the Heart, Inspirational Boost, Words of Creation... you know). And I'd also add some kind of ability that lets you grant class features (a random thought, but one that could lead to something... maybe granting Sneak Attack / feats / smites / rage / something...).

Oh, but I don't know. The class is just bad for now.

Epinephrine
2008-11-26, 09:44 AM
Agreed, the Marshal as written is pretty much for dips. It is very front-loaded, getting a full power minor aura at first level, and the major aura progresses slowly. Giving up a second level from another class to grab a major aura at +1 is ok, but it's simply not worth waiting to hit +2 on the major auras, they scale poorly.

3/4 BAB and d8 HD don't do it any favours either.

I did see a re-write of the Marshal,
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-752414

Haven't looked through all of it, but anything that makes a base class more than just a dip is good in my mind. I particularly like limiting the power of minor auras so that they scale with class level - a first level marshal's minor aura shouldn't be as strong as a higher level marshal's aura, that's just asking for people to dip marshal for the quick +N to skills. Limiting the bonus to the Marshal level or Cha, whichever is lower, makes sense to me. You want +5? Take at least 5 levels.

goram.browncoat
2008-11-26, 10:20 AM
Most characters with high charisma that operate in a party would probably find something usefull in a one level marshal dip. Especially bards who are already party pleasers.

But as a class to take many levels in .. it just doesnt seem workable in the least.

The Mormegil
2008-11-26, 11:06 AM
Sooo... it's an initiator marshal. With some good brand-new feats. Could work.

mabriss lethe
2008-11-26, 04:34 PM
It does make a pretty decent gestalt class. (that grand move action ability isn't quite so useless then.) even in Gestalt, I doubt I'd take the class all the way to twenty. or even close.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-26, 04:41 PM
I believe the Double Aura feat from Dragon Magic works for Marshals. IIRC, they can take draconic auras from the book too, which gives them some more versatility.

Eldariel
2008-11-26, 05:10 PM
It's also annoying that they only get Grant Move Actions. They should be able to grant the other types on higher levels; Standard and eventually Full-Rounds would help him a lot. Also, a ton of dead levels, medium BAB and no spellcasting is kinda "meh". The core version is mostly a Bard without spells.

Thurbane
2008-11-26, 06:53 PM
The PHBII Marshal variant gets Adrenale Boost instead of Grant Move Action.

Also, the class isn't really that underpowered, certainly not unplayable. It's only truly weak compared to Batman Wizards, CoDzilla and other munchkin builds. Like the Bard and Dragon Shaman, however, it is a class that works best at supporting others, and gets very little limelight itself...

Fax Celestis
2008-11-26, 06:56 PM
Hm.

Marshal//Dragon Shaman might be bizarrely interesting.

Demons_eye
2008-11-26, 07:17 PM
I had an npc marshal/bard/Dragon shaman/ect... He just played a song and stood there for a bit and he helped a lot.

RTGoodman
2008-11-26, 07:19 PM
I don't really think the Marshal is all that underpowered, but I don't really think it has enough to make a whole class as-is. I mean, one or two auras at a time, plus the ability to occasionally let people move and otherwise mediocre BAB/HD/etc., doesn't strike me as enough to make me want to stick with the class for more than a level or two.

Because of that, I didn't really do a "Marshal fix," but I did cannibalize the class for my Warleader Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64384) class variant. If Epinephrine's martial adept Marshal is the same I'm remembering, I like it a lot, too.

Eldariel
2008-11-26, 07:23 PM
The PHBII Marshal variant gets Adrenale Boost instead of Grant Move Action.

Also, the class isn't really that underpowered, certainly not unplayable. It's only truly weak compared to Batman Wizards, CoDzilla and other munchkin builds. Like the Bard and Dragon Shaman, however, it is a class that works best at supporting others, and gets very little limelight itself...

It's very weak compared to the Bard. That's the main issue, and the fact that his abilities don't really scale. The first levels of Marshal are great, but later on you just get nothing of value. That's mostly a byproduct of the inability to stack the same Aura-effect upon itself or relevantly increasing the aura bonuses, and the fact that Grant Move Action is a linearly improving ability, and that you don't get to grant any other kinds of actions. Really, the best Marshal-levels are 1-3. Beyond that it's all kinds of meh.

Proper writing of classes would eliminate problems like this, but since WoTC sucks at properly writing the classes, only classes with naturally exponential growth like Full Casters and Initiators level up properly. Fighter-like classes have this advantage to certain degree, since BAB advancement gives them improving Power Attack, which additional feats can turn into exponential growth, but that's very much one-trick and at least I don't consider doing the same thing over and over again fun, so while the class actually has decent growth, it fails in the fun-department which is much more important.

Thurbane
2008-11-26, 07:57 PM
It might be worth doing a few levels of Marshal to get some auras, then branching off into other inspirational type PrCs like Outcast Champion, Purple Dragon Knight, Legendary Leader, Dragon Lord. Maybe dip into another CHA based martial class like Paladin.

@ Eladriel - I agree with what you say, but I don't think any classes are so poorly deisgned to be actually unplayable. Even the much vaunted suckitude of the Truenamer really only starts kicking in at higher levels (and I don't know about you, but the highest I've gotten a character in over 20 years of gaming is 14th - but that may just be to the casual nature of my group). It also depends on the type of gaming you enjoy. While everyone wants to be able to contribute in (and out of) combat, even suboptimal characters can be a lot of fun depending on your play style (and no, I'm not saying gimped character = better roleplaying). :smallwink:

Eldariel
2008-11-26, 08:50 PM
It might be worth doing a few levels of Marshal to get some auras, then branching off into other inspirational type PrCs like Outcast Champion, Purple Dragon Knight, Legendary Leader, Dragon Lord. Maybe dip into another CHA based martial class like Paladin.

My personal favourite is a ToB-class or a Bard with Marshal-dips for Auras. White Raven/Songs complement the Auras perfectly, and either half gives you something extra for your money too (martial ability if going with ToB, spellcasting if taking Bard).


@ Eladriel - I agree with what you say, but I don't think any classes are so poorly deisgned to be actually unplayable. Even the much vaunted suckitude of the Truenamer really only starts kicking in at higher levels (and I don't know about you, but the highest I've gotten a character in over 20 years of gaming is 14th - but that may just be to the casual nature of my group). It also depends on the type of gaming you enjoy. While everyone wants to be able to contribute in (and out of) combat, even suboptimal characters can be a lot of fun depending on your play style (and no, I'm not saying gimped character = better roleplaying). :smallwink:

Heh, my playgroup likes to play around with all levels, so we've got games starting anywhere from level 1 to 25 (highest thus far). Suboptimality isn't as much my problem as the fact that I get a level-up and check my new abilities and find out that...I got nothing! Nothing irks me like that. When my character level-ups, he'd better get something from it. Actually, optimality is an amusing side product of interesting new abilities. If you get something cool every level, your character pretty much can't totally suck.

Just BAB, saves, skills and HP is pretty dull - getting some unique class feature is where it's at. That's really my gripe with higher level Marshal - you can get levels all you like and get absolutely nothing out of it. It won't feel relevantly different on level 15 compared to level 10 (as chances are, you already have all the primary auras you're interested in). As I already said, I find the early levels just fine - there's a flurry of different interesting things you find as you take the first few levels.

That's also why I'd endorse that Sublime Way Marshal - it maintains the idea of the Marshal while giving it some interesting abilities I'd be glad to look forward to, and reducing the frontloadedness. In other words, improving upon the original Marshal-design. Which is awesome, 'cause I like the "Warlord"-types of classes.

Keld Denar
2008-11-26, 08:59 PM
If you get something cool every level, your character pretty much can't totally suck.

I dunno, monks get something at every level, and unless you are using partially charged wands with crossclass ranks in UMD...

Gah, I can't even force myself to finish this. So painful...

Eldariel
2008-11-26, 09:08 PM
Monks don't get something cool every level. They mostly get trash not worth using. There're maybe 6 levels with abilities actually worth taking the level for (1, 2, 6, 11, 12, 19) with the rest mostly being crap that actually doesn't do anything. Like, the class feature list looks cool as it's so full of text, but once you actually read what those things do, it starts to look much less cool.

The Barbarian and the Fighter suffer of similar problems - the Barbarian gets worthwhile abilities 1-5 and then 10 and 20. The Fighter gets a useful ability every second level, but the ability is only as useful, and the growth as fast as the number of books allowed. Ranger, for example, feels like a much better design for a martial class - just about every level contains something interesting with spells picking up the slack later on (only applicable with Spell Compendium though since otherwise none of the spells actually do anything). Of course, this is again a case of "spells save the class". I don't think WoTC has printed a single decent base class that doesn't have a progressing ability of sorts, be it magic, initiating, psionics, binding, soulmelding, wildshaping or similar. Knight probably comes the closest (I'm counting Factotum and his Inspiration-shenanigans as a progressing-by-levels ability as he gets a larger and larger pool from which to "cast his spells" from each level, along with more "spells").

Hida Reju
2008-11-26, 10:57 PM
Marshal's are fun if you have a total of 3 or more players not counting yourself.

I admit that taking one to lvl 20 is not something I could see myself doing. I would multiclass into fighter for 2 lvls somewhere for some feats usually. Basicly my problem with the class is that it does not get enough feats to make it a viable melee class, nor enough abilities to make it a good support class. Really it kinda ends up on the sidelines where ever it sits.

If you really want to do it I would recomend a 2 lvl dip into another melee class and focus on polearms for reach. There is also "Frightful Presence" out of Dragonnomicon that any time you attack or charge an opponent you cause a 30ft fear effect with a DC of 10 +(1/2 lvl + Cha mod) to cause your opponents to be shaken. It's not much but it does help at times, also remember your flanking tactics, disarm, and trip.

You can contribute quite a bit but it will be limited in scope and you will have to switch your auras often to accomidate things.

If its just the aura power you are interested in I would get the Dragon Magic book out, there is a feat in there to give a single aura power and it scales up for free. Basicly you can burn two feats (one for dragontouched) to get it.

Adumbration
2008-11-27, 08:47 AM
I'm now planning a character for a gestalt naval pirate camptaign, level 8, and here's what I have so far. Ranger 5/Leviathan Hunter 3//Marshal 8. Is it good for the other side of gestalt? I'm planning on having at least 18 charisma - we have 40 point-buy - and getting at least the Motivate Dexterity, maybe Intelligence as well, plus Art of War and Watchful Eye. I'm a bit uncertain on what Major auras I should get. Any suggestions, comments?

I'll also grab the Adrenaline Boost alternate class feature most likely. 8 temp. hitpoints for all nearby allies doesn't sound too shoddy.

Adumbration
2008-11-27, 11:12 AM
The dm in question is a bit strict, I'm afraid, and (s)he forbade ToB due to never having read it. Thanks for the advice nonetheless.

EDIT: On Leviathan Hunter: yeah, it isn't all that great, but the +8 to recognize and track creature is nice, and if I manage to run Knowledge Devotion through the DM it should prove to be useful. It is also very much thematically appropriate, with full BaB and d10 HD.

EDIT 2: Now you're just making me look silly, babbling here all by myself. :smallwink:

Eldariel
2008-11-27, 11:15 AM
...did I just delete my post? I think I did. Crap. Well, anyways, that's too bad then. While you'd probably still be better off as a Bard (using Perform: Oratory - he's shouting orders), I suppose that makes straight Marshal a decent option. Adrenaline Boost has the annoying Standard Action-clause, and the advancement is a bit slow, but it's still better than Grant Move Action, especially with maxed Marshal-levels. So yea, unless you'd be willing to Bardic, that does appear like the way to go - Adrenaline Boost really needs full Marshal-levels to do much good.

Person_Man
2008-11-27, 08:23 PM
Leadership. It's core, and the Marshal class cries out for it.

Deepblue706
2008-11-27, 08:57 PM
Marshal is also a fair diplomancer. He gets Skill Focus Diplomacy at first level, and has all skills that grant synergy to Diplomacy on his list.

Epinephrine
2008-11-27, 09:03 PM
I'm now planning a character for a gestalt naval pirate camptaign, level 8, and here's what I have so far. Ranger 5/Leviathan Hunter 3//Marshal 8. Is it good for the other side of gestalt? I'm planning on having at least 18 charisma - we have 40 point-buy - and getting at least the Motivate Dexterity, maybe Intelligence as well, plus Art of War and Watchful Eye. I'm a bit uncertain on what Major auras I should get. Any suggestions, comments?.

Motivate Dexterity is a nice non-combat aura in general - it'll help boost several things you do on ship, but importantly it boosts initiative. Master of Tactics is another really solid pick as a minor aura, you and all allies add your charisma bonus to flanking damage. Picking up some good flanking moves across your party, maybe some swashbuckler or something? Starts looking really nice.

Major auras are harder to choose from, they're all pretty decent, though the bonus isn't nearly as big.