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Tyger
2008-11-26, 10:52 AM
Alrighty, here is Mardoulin (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=92477).

The game is level 6, PHB classes and spells only. The character must be human (not a DM rule, just my preference). Magic items and feats are looser, but gold is the standard 13000 from the DMG. The DM is giving presents, and I have been told that mine will be a matched pair of magic daggers.

Any thoughts? Trying to do decent combat (thus the Feinting and the TWFing) but be more of a face for the party (thus the CHA and the Glibness scrolls) and to resolve all the odd ball problems that come up.

Anything in Complete Scoundrel I should know about?

Telonius
2008-11-26, 10:58 AM
Since feats from outside the PHB are allowed, Hamstring from Complete Warrior or Staggering Strike from Complete Adventurer could be a nice substitute for Improved Feint.

Tyger
2008-11-26, 11:04 AM
I can certainly see some benefit in both of those... Good suggestions. The only reason I have Imp. Feint is to try and grab a few more Sneak Attacks. If I got rid of it, I could grab Staggering and then ditch Combat Expertise for Quick Draw, letting me throw daggers faster too.

Nice idea.

Fan
2008-11-26, 11:07 AM
Go wizard. You'll do it better, and deal more damage.
Greater invisiblity+ Orb of force. There you have you damage, and your sneak.:smalltongue:

Tyger
2008-11-26, 11:08 AM
Go wizard. You'll do it better, and deal more damage.
Greater invisiblity+ Orb of force. There you have you damage, and your sneak.:smalltongue:

Just for the sake of argument, lets pretend I want to play a rogue. :smallbiggrin:

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 11:12 AM
Why aren't you taking craven? An extra 6 damage per sneak attack, it averages out to about an extra 2d6 damage at your level (and it scales with your level).

Tyger
2008-11-26, 11:15 AM
Why aren't you taking craven? An extra 6 damage per sneak attack, it averages out to about an extra 2d6 damage at your level (and it scales with your level).

Because I have never heard of it? :smallbiggrin: What book is that from? I don't care for the sound of it though, this bloke isn't intended to be a coward. :) I do like the mechanics as you've described them!

Telonius
2008-11-26, 11:16 AM
By the way, how many levels are you expecting to play this guy? If you're going to be playing this for awhile, the Savvy Rogue feat (Complete Scoundrel) would be a great idea at level 12, particularly if you take the Crippling Strike ability at Rogue10.

Will there be any multiclassing XP penalties? If not, Rogue19/anything but commoner1 is a more powerful character than Rogue20. I generally prefer Ranger or Wizard as my one-level dip in core.

EDIT: Craven does contain a -2 on saves vs. fear, iirc.

Fan
2008-11-26, 11:19 AM
What you want to play something that doesn't do everything as well if not better than the other classes?:smalltongue:
Fine Rouge/Wizard. At your level you get Invisblity which helps MASSIVELY, and if you get a cAt familiar you get +3 on MS checks.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 11:22 AM
Because I have never heard of it? :smallbiggrin: What book is that from? I don't care for the sound of it though, this bloke isn't intended to be a coward. :) I do like the mechanics as you've described them!

Champions of Ruin

Tyger
2008-11-26, 11:22 AM
What you want to play something that doesn't do everything as well if not better than the other classes?:smalltongue:
Fine Rouge/Wizard. At your level you get Invisblity which helps MASSIVELY, and if you get a cAt familiar you get +3 on MS checks.

Alright, let me spell it out here. Character is a rogue. Looking for advice on a ROGUE build is after all, the title of the thread. Its my fault for not being emphatic and perfectly clear on that point, and for that I apologize.

TELONIUS: Its probably just going to be a one off character for one session, maybe a very short string of them. Highly unlikely to be played beyond level eight.

TIPPY: Thanks, I'll have to take a look at that one!

Fan
2008-11-26, 11:27 AM
Alright, let me spell it out here. Character is a rogue. Looking for advice on a ROGUE build is after all, the title of the thread. Its my fault for not being emphatic and perfectly clear on that point, and for that I apologize.

TELONIUS: Its probably just going to be a one off character for one session, maybe a very short string of them. Highly unlikely to be played beyond level eight.

TIPPY: Thanks, I'll have to take a look at that one!

So, your against multi class that improves said build?
You still a rouge you just aren't MAD as now you get that bonus to MS, and Hide that you need as a rouge can cast gilbness for Bluff checks, can cast [forgets spells name] that gives you caster level on feint checks thus making sneak attack without a flank easily possible. Now you get touch attack orb spells to sneak attack with, and can cast snipers eye to double your sneak attack range.
Just trying to help here.:smallsigh:

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 11:28 AM
If you are going for sneaky you might want to look at Darkstalker as well (from Lords of Madness). It let's you hide from scent, tremorsense, blindsight, and a few other things.

You might also want to look at the Penetrating Strike alternate class feature from Dungeonscape (it let's you sneak attack normally immune enemies when you flank them).

weenie
2008-11-26, 11:33 AM
What about Rogue3/Swashbucler3 with Daring Outlaw?

You get 3d6 SA, Weapon finesse for free, Int to dmg, better BaB and HP.

Drop the Improved Feint though. It's not worth the two feats.

Tyger
2008-11-26, 12:04 PM
So, your against multi class that improves said build?
You still a rouge you just aren't MAD as now you get that bonus to MS, and Hide that you need as a rouge can cast gilbness for Bluff checks, can cast [forgets spells name] that gives you caster level on feint checks thus making sneak attack without a flank easily possible. Now you get touch attack orb spells to sneak attack with, and can cast snipers eye to double your sneak attack range.
Just trying to help here.:smallsigh:

Yup, and thanks. But the character is going to be a pure rogue. I know that I could choose more impressive classes to achieve similar ends, but its Rogue all the way.

Fan
2008-11-26, 12:07 PM
Yup, and thanks. But the character is going to be a pure rogue. I know that I could choose more impressive classes to achieve similar ends, but its Rogue all the way.

okay. rouge all the way?
The a mask of undetectable alignemtn from the MIC can be EXTREMLY helpful. Believe me it made my LE monk cry when the seamtress turned out be a a whsiper gnome Assassin who death attacked him with a needle. Pissed me off that he didn't have exotic weapon profincy (needle), and thus wouldn't have hit my AC.

Tyger
2008-11-26, 12:25 PM
What about Rogue3/Swashbucler3 with Daring Outlaw?

You get 3d6 SA, Weapon finesse for free, Int to dmg, better BaB and HP.

Drop the Improved Feint though. It's not worth the two feats.

Nope, no can do. As noted in the OP, its PHB classes all the way. If I had my druthers though, your suggestion is exactly the way that I would have gone. Int to Damage and a free feat that I would take anyway? Yes please!

Though I think you guys are all 100% accurate on the feinting though. Going to drop Combat Expertise and Improved Feint for Staggering Strike and Craven.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 12:31 PM
Well if you can come up with the feats, take:
Martial Study: Cloak of Deception
Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance
Shadow Blade

You might also want to look at Snap Kick. It get's you a second attack on a standard action attack, which is nice.

Tyger
2008-11-26, 12:35 PM
Whoops, Staggering Strike has +6 BAB requirement, so its out. Any thoughts on simply adding in Quick Draw for taking out those daggers to throw all the faster?

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 12:37 PM
Whoops, Staggering Strike has +6 BAB requirement, so its out. Any thoughts on simply adding in Quick Draw for taking out those daggers to throw all the faster?

Go with two Glove of the Master Strategist from Ghostwalk. Gloves of Storing + 1/day true strike as a free action. And they only cost like 3k each.

Darrin
2008-11-26, 12:49 PM
Any thoughts? Trying to do decent combat (thus the Feinting and the TWFing) but be more of a face for the party (thus the CHA and the Glibness scrolls) and to resolve all the odd ball problems that come up.


I can't see your sheet (site is blocked for me), but feinting, even improved, is usually a waste of an action. There are much easier ways to qualify for sneak attack, such as:

1) One-level dip into SwordSage gives you the Island of Blades stance, which means any adjacent ally counts for flanking. You can then pick up the Shadow Blade feat for adding your Dex bonus to damage when using a Shadow Hand weapon in a Shadow Hand stance. If you take it after at least 4 levels of rogue, you can also pick up the Cloak of Deception maneuver (invisibility for one round). You can also dip a second level a little later to pick up the Assassin's Stance for an additional +2d6 sneak attack.

2) Mule Train of Death. Buy a bunch of mules. They're cheap (8 gp each) large animals with a not-too-shabby +9 grapple bonus. Teach them the Pin trick (Handle Animal DC 15):

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a

A grappled target loses their dex bonus to everyone except whoever is grappling them. If you don't want to bother with the mules, get a druid/ranger/paladin to volunteer their companion/mount or the party monk for mule-duty.

3) Find a Telflammar Shadowlord (Unapproachable East) that can sell you wands of invisibility (1st level) or wands of improved invisibility (2nd level).



Anything in Complete Scoundrel I should know about?

Daring Outlaw feat with a Rogue 3/Swaskbuckler X is pretty close to the gold standard for combat sneak attack builds.

Hmm... someone already mentioned Craven. Pick up Staggering Strike ASAP (CAdv, usually ECL 9 for rogue-ish BABs).

The other big worry about sneak attack is all the various creature types that are immune to it, such as constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead. There are two popular work-arounds for this:

1) Penetrating Strike, alternate class feature for 3rd level rogues (Dungeonscape p. 13). Lose trap sense (meh), gain the ability to do 1/2 sneak attack damage when flanking creatures normally immune to it. Does not work against elementals or oozes, since they cannot be flanked.

2) Dragonfire Strike (Dragon Magic p. 18). Requires Cha 11 and dragonblood subtype (if you can't use a variant dragonblood race or the Dragonblood of Bahumat ritual, pick up the Dragontouched feat or a 1-level dip into Dragonfire Adept). Converts sneak attack damage into energy damage. Default is fire, but if you can pick up Draconic Heritage you can switch it to a not-so-common energy type like sonic or force. Works on constructs, plants, and undead when flanking/denied dex bonus, and works on elementals and oozes when denied their dex bonus.

Iku Rex
2008-11-26, 01:04 PM
Go with two Glove of the Master Strategist from Ghostwalk. Gloves of Storing + 1/day true strike as a free action. And they only cost like 3k each.1. Ghostwalk is 3.0. In 3.0 a glove of storing cost 2 200. In 3.5 it costs 10 000. The price has to be updated.

2. Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 01:10 PM
1. Ghostwalk is 3.0. In 3.0 a glove of storing cost 2 200. In 3.5 it costs 10 000. The price has to be updated.
Entirely irrelevant. Gloves of the Master Strategist haven't been updated so the price hasn't changed.


2. Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise.
And the gloves specifically say that it is a free action to activate, so again irrelevant.

Tyger
2008-11-26, 01:19 PM
I can't see your sheet . . . their dex bonus.

All largely irrelevant, due to the restrictions noted in the OP, that the classes and spells are limited to the PHB.

Now the mule train of death is interesting, but I think I'll just talk to the party about the advantages of grappling. :) I can't see my sneaky little rogue with a dozen mules following him. :)

TIPPY: That verges on cheese for me. I don't want to be that mean to the DM. He's a pretty decent guy. :)

Drammel
2008-11-26, 01:34 PM
Well if you can come up with the feats, take:
Martial Study: Cloak of Deception
Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance
Shadow Blade

I'm of the opinion that the Shadow Blade feat was sent from on high by the gods to give hope to Rogues in dark times, but I'm pretty sure at level 6 you don't have the Initiator Level to qualify for Cloak of Deception or Assassin's Stance. At least not if you take Shadow Blade at level 6, Martial Stance at level 3 and Martial Study at level 1.

For first level maneuvers I'd take Shadow Blade Technique. It's nice for those situations when you really need to land a hit. Definitely go with Island of Blades for the stance. It's first level and depending on your party it might come in more handy than Assassin's Stance anyway.

Also, Death's Ruin in Complete Champion allows you to use sneak attack against the undead at half damage. Again, you sacrifice Trap Sense for it.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 01:38 PM
I said take the swordsage level at level 9. That gives you an IL of 5 and let's you qualify for Assassin's Stance.

Drammel
2008-11-26, 01:41 PM
Ah, my apologies sir.

sombrastewart
2008-11-26, 01:47 PM
If I may make another suggestion:

Get a Keen weapon that has a wide crit range, like a rapier, so you can crit on a 15-20. Then pick up the Telling Blow from PHB 2 (pg 83). That way, whenever you do land a crit, it will add in your sneak attack damage.

Iku Rex
2008-11-26, 01:48 PM
Entirely irrelevant. Gloves of the Master Strategist haven't been updated so the price hasn't changed.:smallsigh:

Using obviously outdated 3.0 prices in a 3.5 game without the DM's approval is little more than cheating, and I doubt if the DM will allow an exploit like that.

And the gloves specifically say that it is a free action to activate, ...No, the glove doesn't say that the true strike effect is a free action to activate.

Tyger
2008-11-26, 01:48 PM
All of which are good ideas, but aren't valid for this exercise, as those are classes which are not in the PHB, and thus aren't allowed.


If I may make another suggestion:

Get a Keen weapon that has a wide crit range, like a rapier, so you can crit on a 15-20. Then pick up the Telling Blow from PHB 2 (pg 83). That way, whenever you do land a crit, it will add in your sneak attack damage.

This one was on my list, until I saw that it would cost 8,000 of my starting gold, leaving a very small amount.

Our primary warrior is going with a spiked chain, so the range of area I can be in to flank should be rather large (especially if the wizard will Enlarge him!) so gaining the flank or other sneak attack position shouldn't be too hard though.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 01:57 PM
:smallsigh:

Using obviously outdated 3.0 prices in a 3.5 game without the DM's approval is little more than cheating, and I doubt if the DM will allow an exploit like that.
I would argue that the 3.5 price is the outdated version. Have you ever seen someone pay 10K for a single Glove of Storing?

Besides which, the 3.5 update booklet was published and it specifically mentioned the glove without changing it's price. And the update book was published after the DMG. So the newest source is what's in Ghostwalk.

Iku Rex
2008-11-26, 03:15 PM
I would argue that the 3.5 price is the outdated version.Good for you. But not very relevant here.

Have you ever seen someone pay 10K for a single Glove of Storing?Sure. Not that it matters.

Besides which, the 3.5 update booklet was published and it specifically mentioned the glove without changing it's price. And the update book was published after the DMG. So the newest source is what's in Ghostwalk.If that's how you want to play it, the official DMG errata, containing the latest update for the DMG, was published after the web enhancement for Ghostwalk. It doesn't make any changes. Furthermore, the DMG is technically the "primary source" for the price of a glove of storing. And finally, the by far more recent Magic Item Compendium lists the glove as 10 000 gp.

All this is pointless though, since, like I said, the price is obviously based on the 3.0 glove of storing. It's a matter of common sense. Nobody's going to sell a "glove of storing with benefits" for a third of what they could get for a glove of storing. Game designers aren't going to intentionally publish such an item either, at least not by way of an omission in a half-baked 3.5 update. Trying to sneak it past the DM as "technically RAW" is little more than cheating. Do you disagree with that?

He may as well show up with wheelbarrow loads of magic items gotten by using one of many "easy money" DnD rule exploits.

Did you check the activation time for the glove of the master strategist?

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-27, 04:59 AM
OP: if you are going to crit for telling blow, I'd recommend to take improved critical later if you want to add condition to the target you stroke with the crit (as an example, staggering critical from Drow of the Underdark*)

Staggering strike worths even in the long road. A friend of mine in an epic game used it to stagger a target and automaticaly dodge his single conterattack (impossible to full attack for the target) with an epic rogue feat.


*Recently I suggested this feat many times. Time to read some other book :smallconfused:

Gardakan
2008-11-27, 07:38 AM
You should do a rogue 5/master of daggers(i don't know the real name in English i from Quebec) 1.

You have +4d6 sneak attack with your daggers and you have some funny stuff with your daggers. At level 5 of Master of Daggers you can flank your opponent just by a bluff check on each attack by a free action.

Sneak Attack and more...

Eldariel
2008-11-27, 07:52 AM
"Master of Daggers" is Invisible Blade from Complete Warrior.

Eloel
2008-11-27, 07:58 AM
I would argue that the 3.5 price is the outdated version. Have you ever seen someone pay 10K for a single Glove of Storing?

Besides which, the 3.5 update booklet was published and it specifically mentioned the glove without changing it's price. And the update book was published after the DMG. So the newest source is what's in Ghostwalk.

Gloves of storing are VERY useful o_O
You pay 20k, and never worry about taking your weapons out of your backpack again! :P

Tyger
2008-11-27, 08:07 AM
Gloves of storing are VERY useful o_O
You pay 20k, and never worry about taking your weapons out of your backpack again! :P

Or pay 2500 for a Handy Haversack, and never worry about taking anything out of your pack, ever again. And get the added benefit of carrying capacity. Granted, its a move action vs a free action, so there is still an advantage to the gloves, but not a 7500 gp value in my opinion.

Gardakan
2008-11-27, 08:07 AM
Thanks for the real name. I just have the books in french.

Take a look at Invisble Blade... you will love it...

Tyger
2008-11-27, 08:08 AM
Thanks for the real name. I just have the books in french.

Take a look at Invisble Blade... you will love it...

Except, as previously noted, only PHB classes are allowed.

Gardakan
2008-11-27, 08:09 AM
Except, as previously noted, only PHB classes are allowed.

Does he says that prestige class are allowed or not...

Curmudgeon
2008-11-27, 08:32 AM
Get a masterwork rapier. It'll hit more often than a pair of +1 daggers (if that's what the "presents" are) due to the easier critical confirmation, and do more damage, too. Keep a dagger in each hand to throw during a surprise round and (shifting from off hand to main) in the first round of combat, when you'll likely be facing flat-footed foes. (The shortbow is OK for long distance combat, but just becomes encumbrance when you get to melee. Since you can't do sneak attack at long distance anyway, just save your money and leave that job to others.) At level 6 those two attacks are all you can normally make, and you can draw your rapier as you move after throwing the second dagger. Plan on getting into flanking position, or wait until some party caster hits you with Invisibility, so you can sneak attack thereafter. Without sneak attack you're a poor melee combatant.

I'd forget Two-Weapon Fighting. The TWF penalties will halve your BAB at level 6, and that's just too much of a disadvantage.

Also forget the combat scrolls. You've got only a 45% chance of being able to use an Invisibility scroll (and an extra 15% chance of arcane spell failure from your armor unless you get the Clerical Trickery domain version), and a 5% chance each attempt of not being able to try again for 24 hours. Disguise Self and Glibness are OK; you can afford the time for repeated attempts when outside of combat.

Your armor is a problem. Studded leather imposes a -1 Armor Check Penalty, and you haven't included that -1 Misc. Mod. to all of Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble skills. You should switch to a mithral chain shirt. It'll cost you 1,100 gp instead of 25 gp, but it will remove the ACP, reduce your ASF from 15% to 10%, boost your AC by 1 more, and save you 8.5 pounds of weight.

I also add my vote for the Penetrating Strike alternative class feature. If you work with a flanking partner this could help out a lot.

If your DM pays attention to the rules you'll want maximum ranks in Spot. The important part to note about this skill is:
Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. That means that if you miss seeing an opponent on your first opportunity, you'll never be able to Spot them in a reactive fashion until they do something that you need to react to -- typically, that means them attacking you. You could take the Quick Reconnoiter feat and use those extra Spot and Listen checks each round, but you still will be treating all enemies as effectively invisible until you succeed at a Spot check. Frankly, I'd max out Spot and take Quick Reconnoiter. QR gives you an extra try each round to overcome an opponent's Hide check, and also boosts your initiative mod by another +2 so you can catch opponents flat-footed at the start of combat.

Keld Denar
2008-11-27, 01:16 PM
Get a masterwork rapier. It'll hit more often than a pair of +1 daggers (if that's what the "presents" are) due to the easier critical confirmation, and do more damage, too.

How is easier crit confirmation make hitting easier? A critical threat that still misses is still a miss. Only a natural 20 is both a critical threat and an automatic hit. Its perfectly possible to roll a 19 with a rapier and still miss a really high AC foe, and while a 19 is normally a critical threat, the fact that it doesn't hit in the first place denies that critical hit.

In fact, building around critting is a HORRIBLE way to go as a rogue. Everyone seems to think its a good idea, but it really isn't worth the effort unless you spend an aweful lot of resources, and even then, its typically more advantageous for a PAing fighter due to the fact that PA damage and high str damage multiplies, and SA does not.

Think about it. A level 6 rogue with 3d6 SA, and an 8 str 18 dex using weapon finesse and a rapier will typically do 1d6-1 damage per hit, or 4d6-1 (average 13) while the conditions are met to SA. On a crit, he now does 5d6-2 (average 15.5). So what if you crit on 1 in 4 attacks, your damage doesn't increase hardly at all.

And Telling Blow is a horrible feat. You can't qualify for SA more than once. Thus, if you are flanking AND crit, you don't get MORE SA than normal, you just get your SA. You should ALWAYS try to get SA, even at the expense of a full attack. One hit for 4d6 is better than 2-3 hits for 1d6 each. Thus, relying on Telling Blow to qualify you for SA is a poor tactical decision, making it a poor investment of a feat. Better the certain damage then better your life and the life of your party on a lottery draw. The other arguement that Telling Blow qualifies you for SA when you otherwise couldn't (such as when the target of the attack has concealment) is rather minor and infrequent enough that you are better off investing the feat in something that gets more frequent returns. Its like the feats Hold the Line or Close Quarters Fighting. Situationally, they are AWESOME, since who doesn't love extra attacks, but practically, they only come up about once every 5 or so combats, unless your DM loves throwing the same encounters at you, making them poor investments of valuable feats.

Eldariel
2008-11-27, 01:22 PM
It's all about Wands. Wand of Invisibility, Wand of True Strike, Wand of Wraithstrike (for really broken games), Wand of Grease (!! Practically everything is Flat-Footed with this...except you!), etc. are what makes a Rogue tick offense-wise. Wands have a very doable DC of 20, and they're the cheapest form of itemized magic available. Once you get a Wand of Divine Power, enjoy. That won't be for a while though.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-27, 03:41 PM
How is easier crit confirmation make hitting easier? On a x2 critical, you hit twice. Against enemies where a rolled 18 will hit, a rapier will hit more frequently give you that second hit on rolls where a dagger can't. (Yes, this is slightly nonstandard terminology, but I've found it's the easiest way to explain to newbies why you roll all your damage twice.)

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-27, 03:42 PM
It's all about Wands. Wand of Invisibility, Wand of True Strike, Wand of Wraithstrike (for really broken games), Wand of Grease (!! Practically everything is Flat-Footed with this...except you!), etc. are what makes a Rogue tick offense-wise. Wands have a very doable DC of 20, and they're the cheapest form of itemized magic available. Once you get a Wand of Divine Power, enjoy. That won't be for a while though.

Ah, but you can buy a partially charged wand of Divine Power as early as 7th level.

Lord Zentei
2008-11-27, 03:47 PM
Because I have never heard of it? :smallbiggrin: What book is that from? I don't care for the sound of it though, this bloke isn't intended to be a coward. :) I do like the mechanics as you've described them!

Keep in mind that you can always use the time-honored mantra of "counts as" taken from Warhammer 40000. This was particularly prevalent in the 3rd edition, and basically amounted to: such and such a character with A, B and C background has funky special abilities X, Y and Z; some of these "count as" more mundane abilities described in the core rules. So the mechanics are straightforward, but the RP and modeling elements are allowed something more exotic.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-27, 03:49 PM
And Telling Blow is a horrible feat. You can't qualify for SA more than once. Thus, if you are flanking AND crit, you don't get MORE SA than normal, you just get your SA. I wasn't suggesting using Telling Blow at this low level (6), because the necessary keen rapier is a budget-buster, but your reasoning is flawed. You've overlooked the fact that the sneak attack bonus from Craven is a static number rather than extra damage dice. As such, it's also multiplied on a critical sneak attack -- and Telling Blow enables sneak attacks whenever you make critical hits.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-27, 04:00 PM
Okay, so you're a 6th level human rogue, wanting advice on feats, right?

1st level: Martial Study (Shadow Blade Technique), Martial Stance (Island of Blades)
3rd: Shadow Blade
6th: Craven

Net effect:

As required, you have 6 levels of ROGUE. No other classes. You picked up some feats, but you cast no spells outside of PhB.

Island of Blades means you should never be unable to sneak attack. You flank if any of your allies are ajacent to anyone you're ajacent to. That alone is worth a LOT.

Shadow Blade adds your Dex to damage. I'm sure you can see the implications here.

Keld Denar
2008-11-27, 04:20 PM
On a x2 critical, you hit twice. Against enemies where a rolled 18 will hit, a rapier will hit more frequently give you that second hit on rolls where a dagger can't. (Yes, this is slightly nonstandard terminology, but I've found it's the easiest way to explain to newbies why you roll all your damage twice.)

Except that SA is not multiplied. Did you not read my post? 2 hits with SA given the parameters I listed gives you 8d6-2, whereas a critical gives you 5d6-2. Not the same at all, so don't go CONFUSING people by saying that a crit is the same as 2 hits.


I wasn't suggesting using Telling Blow at this low level (6), because the necessary keen rapier is a budget-buster, but your reasoning is flawed. You've overlooked the fact that the sneak attack bonus from Craven is a static number rather than extra damage dice. As such, it's also multiplied on a critical sneak attack -- and Telling Blow enables sneak attacks whenever you make critical hits.

Ok, my bad, yea, Craven damage would be multiplied on a crit. Yea, Craven damage can be decent. Regardless, investing cash for a Keen weapon or investing a feat for Improved Critical isn't really worth it for a rogue on a budget, and without it, the difference between a rapier and a dagger is only 1 number. You know what also doubles your crit range? Two Weapon Fighting (kind of). TWF also increases your Sneak Attack damage, rather than just your base weapon damage + Craven. Much better investment.

And Telling Blow still sucks, for the reasons I listed before. Yea, it enables you to SA whenever you crit, but qualifying for SA due to multiple reasons doesn't give you any more dice. Do you deal more SA if you attack a flat footed target who is flanked by your buddy? No. You also don't get any more SA if you crit while flanking, or crit while your foe is flat footed. You are better off moving into a flank than chancing rolling a critical hit. All the other reasons to take Telling Blow are too circumstantial to be valid reasons to take it as a feat, unless you are hemorrhaging feat, in which case I could STILL come up with better feats to take than it. At low levels, you don't have enough attacks to really lament the loss of a full attack, as my math above proved, and at high levels you should have multiple methods of providing flankers, moving into flanking position as swift actions, or gaining SA via concealment like Greater Invis or Blinking (via Ring).

Building a rogue as a crit monster is NOT a mechanically sound idea, regardless of certain popular opinion.

That is, unless you can prove all of my math and judgement of circumstances wrong?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-27, 05:57 PM
Except that SA is not multiplied. Did you not read my post? 2 hits with SA given the parameters I listed gives you 8d6-2, whereas a critical gives you 5d6-2. Not the same at all, so don't go CONFUSING people by saying that a crit is the same as 2 hits.



Ok, my bad, yea, Craven damage would be multiplied on a crit. Yea, Craven damage can be decent. Regardless, investing cash for a Keen weapon or investing a feat for Improved Critical isn't really worth it for a rogue on a budget, and without it, the difference between a rapier and a dagger is only 1 number. You know what also doubles your crit range? Two Weapon Fighting (kind of). TWF also increases your Sneak Attack damage, rather than just your base weapon damage + Craven. Much better investment.

And Telling Blow still sucks, for the reasons I listed before. Yea, it enables you to SA whenever you crit, but qualifying for SA due to multiple reasons doesn't give you any more dice. Do you deal more SA if you attack a flat footed target who is flanked by your buddy? No. You also don't get any more SA if you crit while flanking, or crit while your foe is flat footed. You are better off moving into a flank than chancing rolling a critical hit. All the other reasons to take Telling Blow are too circumstantial to be valid reasons to take it as a feat, unless you are hemorrhaging feat, in which case I could STILL come up with better feats to take than it. At low levels, you don't have enough attacks to really lament the loss of a full attack, as my math above proved, and at high levels you should have multiple methods of providing flankers, moving into flanking position as swift actions, or gaining SA via concealment like Greater Invis or Blinking (via Ring).

Building a rogue as a crit monster is NOT a mechanically sound idea, regardless of certain popular opinion.

That is, unless you can prove all of my math and judgement of circumstances wrong?

Okay, proving your math and judgement of circumstances... perhaps not wrong, but let us say you seem to be missing a vital reason this IS viable...

more sneak attack dice is good, don't get me wrong, but being able to apply sneak attack dice more often is also a very good thing. A rogue's damage output consistantly requires being able to consistantly apply his sneak attack dice.

This is why Telling Blow + Keen weapon with high crit range is considered sound, because every time you crit, you also get to add in your sneak attack dice. With Keen + 18-20 weapon, you've got a 25% chance of critting (15+), which really isn't too bad, all things considered. That's a one in four chance of being able to apply sneak attack dice even if you would normally be unable to.

Personally, I prefer blowing a feat or two so that you can get Island of Blades stance, not just because it opens up Shadow Blade for Dex to damage (again, consistant damage output increase), but it also lets you flank from any angle, meaning increasing your ability to apply sneak attack dice.

Basically, your goal as a rogue for maximum damage output is to try to make sure you are able to apply sneak attack dice as much as possible. If non-core spells were allowed, I'd suggest wands of Gravebane and Golembane, but alas, they are not allowed.

Keld Denar
2008-11-27, 06:13 PM
This is why Telling Blow + Keen weapon with high crit range is considered sound, because every time you crit, you also get to add in your sneak attack dice. With Keen + 18-20 weapon, you've got a 25% chance of critting (15+), which really isn't too bad, all things considered. That's a one in four chance of being able to apply sneak attack dice even if you would normally be unable to.

Personally, I prefer blowing a feat or two so that you can get Island of Blades stance, not just because it opens up Shadow Blade for Dex to damage (again, consistant damage output increase), but it also lets you flank from any angle, meaning increasing your ability to apply sneak attack dice.

You sir, just proved my point. WHY spend 2 feats (or a feat and cash) for Telling Blow and Improved Critical (or Keen weapon) when you can spend the 2 feats on Martial Study/Stance. Instead of qualifying for SA 1/4 hits, you are qualifying for 100%. Much better return. As long as your rogue isn't solo, he should always be able to find an adjacent friend to flank with via Island of Blades, or flank with normally, or qualify on his own via a Ring of Blinking or Wand of Greater Invis (partially charged, of course!).

Its just not reliable, or economic in terms of actions and damage and feat cost.

Eldariel
2008-11-27, 06:49 PM
Or you could get Grease from the Arcanist, or use the Wand yourself, and SA on your leisure (you have those 5 ranks in Balance and thus remain unaffected). This is something you can actually do level 3-4, as the Wand is only 750. And any Rogue worth his salt can Sneak Attack always anyways, either through Invisibility, Blinking, the Wand, Flanking or Hiding. Telling Blow is unreliable, and more importantly, you should never be in a position where you need to try it.

Spending a feat on an ability that could maybe help you in a position where you may end up is simply plain dumb. Any Rogue picking up Telling Blow needs high Cha and should go around giving Telling Blows, not adventuring.


A combat Rogue should have:
Maxed UMD
Maxed Hide/Move Silently
Maxed Tumble
5 ranks in Balance
Weapon Finesse
Two-Weapon Fighting
Shadow Blade
Craven
Darkstalker

and two levels in Swordsage if ToB is allowed (without it, Shadow Blade is simply too much work). The first level can be taken at any level after the first (on the first, you need Rogue skillpoints), and the second when you qualify for Assassin's Stance (level 8). Swordsage would also deals with the movement-related issues TWF normally suffers of. Tiger Claw offers great ways to move and kick ass early on (and later too), with the prerequisite maneuvers opening up items for midlevel maneuvers too. That said, for this build, you need alternative means (in other words, Magic) to get past those prerequisites - you may want to look into a Wand of Lion's Charge.

EDIT: Oh yeah, pick up Quick Draw at some point and abuse it with Wands, dropping rules and such. Allows you to use Wanded Lion's Charge (for example) in the same round that you make a Charge-attack - draw the Wand as a free action, cast Lion's Charge as a swift action, drop Wand as a free action, draw daggers as a free action, charge as a full-round action. It also goes great with Sleight of Hand: You can draw concealed weapons (great in cityscape) with a move action and this opens up some actual action-granting skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-27, 08:50 PM
WHY spend 2 feats (or a feat and cash) for Telling Blow and Improved Critical (or Keen weapon) Gee, there are so many answers for this question. (1) Because Telling Blow provides opportunities for sneak/skirmish damage when it's otherwise impossible. As its only requirement to trigger sneak attack is a critical hit, Telling Blow will also work
at greater than 30' range
when the target has concealment
when you haven't moved 10' (for skirmish)
(2) Because even without Telling Blow, keen provides benefits in conjunction with Craven when you already qualify for sneak attack: you get all of
your STR bonus,
your weapon's enhancement bonus,
and your character level (from Craven)
multiplied on each critical hit.

when you can spend the 2 feats on Martial Study/Stance. Instead of qualifying for SA 1/4 hits, you are qualifying for 100%. Well, that's nonsense. (3) Martial Study will allow use of a maneuver only once per encounter. So that's one round (hits not guaranteed) of sneak attack (except not if they have See Invisibility) per encounter with Cloak of Deception, and then you've got no further use from that feat. Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance still provides benefit, but that's 2 feats for +2d6 when you qualify for sneak attack damage. Compared to Craven that's an even trade at level 3.5, and worse from level 4 on.

As long as your rogue isn't solo, he should always be able to find an adjacent friend to flank with (4) Not in real encounters. Flying enemies, and those with very high movement rates, are extremely difficult to flank. But a critical hit with a ranged weapon will still trigger sneak attack damage with Telling Blow. (5) Ever heard of Improved Uncanny Dodge? Flanking doesn't always work. And (6) if you rely on getting into flanking position for sneak attack, you're maneuvering instead of attacking, and squandering chances for full attacks with ranged weapons at the start of encounters when enemies are flat-footed. If they're within 30' you can add sneak attack damage anyway. If they're not, Telling Blow gives a statistical chance of adding sneak damage on each of your many missiles -- and a single casting of Keen Edge will double the threat range of 50 arrows or bolts. That's much better than spending a couple rounds closing for melee and doing no damage at all. And finally (7) if you're a Rogue and you're constantly trying to flank enemies, you will get killed. Rogues just don't have the AC or HP to sustain that. Diverse ways of getting sneak attack, that don't require being an easy target, improve survivability.

Keld Denar
2008-11-27, 09:23 PM
I already conceeded the point about Craven. Str typically isnt a factor, since most rogues have a 10 at best. Not all, but most. Especially in point buy. Weapon enhancement is another 1-5 points at best, since things like elemental dice don't get multiplied. Thus, Craven is the only real damage you are multiplying, which IMO isn't worth it or the investment. Take TWF to get an extra attack and you'll reliably do more damage.

The things you mentioned about qualifying for SA in other ways than just from flanking or making your foe flatfooted. They are either circumstantial, or moot points. If extreme range is a problem, your party's caster should help your group close the gap with a Dimension Door or similar magic. Well functioning groups use tactics like Delay for the wizard, or Delay for the cleric (with Travel domain) or some such tactic. And your bow idea quite frankly sucks. Eating up a spell on Keen Edge to get a quiver full of bladed arrows enchanted so you can shoot a couple for a 10% chance to crit is stupid. First of all, the duration on Keen Edges is rather short, so your chances of walking into an encounter, especially a surprise one like a flying creature swooping down on you, the caster probably has more important things to think about, like how to ground the flyer so that you and the rest of your party can swarm it and stab it to death. Thats party dynamics, not wasting valuable actions on stupid actions like that. And I hope you aren't using a crossbow, cause now you've spent 2 (or 3) bad feats on Rapid Reload on top of Telling Blow.

Things like concealment or Uncanny Dodge causing you to not get SA, again, thats a very small circumstance, hardly worth the expenditure of a feat for Telling Blow, and maybe Improved Crit or Keen. You are a rogue, do something else thats resourceful. Pull out a wand and UMD it or something. Distract the foe so that your allies can help you kill it.

Oh, and you didn't read my whole post, because I specified that a better choice than Assassin's stance would be Island of Blades, which makes it much easier to qualify for SA than hoping for a random critical.

Oh, and with things like a Ring of Blinking, or Improved Invisible from a wand or ally available at higher levels, its SUPER EASY to qualify for SA on your own. You don't need a chancy mechanic like Telling Blow to get it.

Eldariel
2008-11-27, 09:51 PM
One more point worth addressing - Telling Blow does allow SA beyond the range of 30', but to get that, you need to critical with a ranged weapon and they happen to have crappy crit ranges and low numbers of attacks per round. It's just too unlikely to happen to be worth a feat. A feat is a huge investment. It better give you huge returns, like Weapon Finesse, Craven or Darkstalker. Telling Blow is marginal returns at best, and whenever you are in a position you need to try to activate SA through it, you should probably be using Magic instead in the first place.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-27, 10:32 PM
Eating up a spell on Keen Edge to get a quiver full of bladed arrows enchanted so you can shoot a couple for a 10% chance to crit is stupid. First of all, the duration on Keen Edges is rather short It's 10 minutes per level. The Rogue can get a Metamagic Rod of Extend, Lesser and let the spellcaster use it to double that duration. 50 bolts or arrows is a lot, so one casting can boost multiple missile weapon users. Throw in a couple level 1 Pearls of Power and the caster won't be out more than a single minor spell daily. Problem solved.

And I hope you aren't using a crossbow, cause now you've spent 2 (or 3) bad feats on Rapid Reload on top of Telling Blow. Again, you're overlooking the option to spend money rather than a feat. Feats are precious for Rogues, but Rogues are good at acquiring gp.
A quick loading crossbow accesses an extradimensional space that can hold up to 100 bolts, allowing you to reload the crossbow more rapidly than normal. Reloading a quick loading hand or light crossbow is a free action (allowing a character with multiple attacks to use his full attack rate) The Rogue fires at full rate, without needing any special feats or waiting for a spell, with a 20% threat range. That gives an even chance of a critical threat every 3.1 shots. Much better than wasting rounds closing to where you can flank, with or without Island of Blades.
Oh, and with things like a Ring of Blinking, or Improved Invisible from a wand or ally available at higher levels, its SUPER EASY to qualify for SA on your own. Yes, it is. And every time you'll need to waste a standard action to get <whichever> going, and move action(s) to close to within the usual 30' sneak attack limit. With Telling Blow you immediately start shooting and every few bolts will add sneak attack damage, with Craven damage doubled every single time.

I note that you didn't respond to my point about unreasonable risk involved with flanking. With Island of Blades you've invested in 2 feats that require you to get up close to enemies that have a good chance of killing you in a single round. Maybe why that's why I just assumed that couldn't possibly be the stance you meant to advocate.

Eldariel
2008-11-27, 10:44 PM
The Rogue fires at full rate, without needing any special feats or waiting for a spell, with a 20% threat range. That gives an even chance of a critical threat every 3.1 shots. Much better than wasting rounds closing to where you can flank, with or without Island of Blades.

Eh, I kinda expect the Rogue to be Wanding Seeking Ray or similar later on anyways when acting at long ranges without even bothering with Sneak Attack. That gives you 5% chance to crit every turn. Since the expected damage from Seeking Ray (due to the likely almost-auto hit thanks to targeting touch AC) is pretty high in comparison with or without Telling Blow (unless the target creature happens to have extremely crappy AC), I still fail to see the great benefits it grants. You just aren't gonna crit enough to make up for the feat investment, even if you focus on it.

Tyger
2008-11-27, 10:58 PM
Maybe I am missing something, but what's the big deal with a Wand of Grease? Sure, for 750 GP one can buy a wand that will quite likely grant a SA on the next attack. But Grease has a 1 round / level duration, (i.e. that 750 GP only gets you a caster level 1 wand) so you'd have to give up every second round of attacking to use the wand. Does that make sense to everyone but me?

Keld Denar
2008-11-27, 11:07 PM
Throw in a couple level 1 Pearls of Power and the caster won't be out more than a single minor spell daily. Problem solved.

Pearl of Power 3s. Keen Edges is a 3rd level spell. Thats 9k gold, unless its crafted. 9k gold is more than a +2 weapon, then add in the 3k for the lesser rod of extend and you've expended 12k gold, which is almost enough for a +4 stat booster. Thats a lot to invest for a margianal tactic that gives marginal returns at high levels.


Again, you're overlooking the option to spend money rather than a feat. Feats are precious for Rogues, but Rogues are good at acquiring gp. The Rogue fires at full rate, without needing any special feats or waiting for a spell, with a 20% threat range. That gives an even chance of a critical threat every 3.1 shots. Much better than wasting rounds closing to where you can flank, with or without Island of Blades.

Ok, how much is this crossbow of yours? Add it to the 12k you've already spent on the Pearl and the Rod, and I'll find something better to spend it on that WILL give you better returns, and still have money left over to buy items that aide my primary mode of doing damage, that is, stabbing people.


Yes, it is. And every time you'll need to waste a standard action to get <whichever> going, and move action(s) to close to within the usual 30' sneak attack limit. With Telling Blow you immediately start shooting and every few bolts will add sneak attack damage, with Craven damage doubled every single time.

So, are you building a ranged rogue? Or a melee rogue? If the former, you are doing it all wrong by not getting Rapid Shot instead of Telling Blow, and if the later, you still eat those actions up dropping your bow (which means its very vulnerable to sunder or blatent theft) and drawing your main weapons. You are just doing piddly damage at the start of the combat, where as I would be moving into position to do major damage, or delaying so that the caster can port me into a position where I can immediately 5' step and full attack, doing WAY more damage than your little crossbow could ever dream of doing. Again, are you a ranged rogue? Or a melee rogue?


I note that you didn't respond to my point about unreasonable risk involved with flanking. With Island of Blades you've invested in 2 feats that require you to get up close to enemies that have a good chance of killing you in a single round. Maybe why that's why I just assumed that couldn't possibly be the stance you meant to advocate.
I tell you what I would do, I'd take that 12k gold you spent on the Rod and the Pearl and buy something that would give me more survivability. Like a +2 Con amulet and a Ring of Blinking. AC isn't gonna matter much anyway, regardless of what you do, so miss chance is your only defense. Oh, and that miss chance also allows you to SA at will to, without Telling Blow. And I'd hope my allies could keep whatever big nasty we are fighting as busy (or disabled/debuffed/etc) as possible. Thats the roll of a glass cannon, to do damage to a target that hopefully is too preoccupied to mess with you right away, or too confused/blinded/weakened/fatigued/staggered/etc to fight back effectively. And if that doesn't help? At least I have 1 more HP/level than you because I bought the Con item instead of a Pearl of Power and a Lesser Rod.

Pretty much, is Telling Blow a TERRIBADZOMGNEVERTAKEIT feat? No. You could probably get some mileage out of it. Just like Cleave, or Hold the Line, or Close Quarters Fighting. Is it something that a savvy rogue would spend a feat or 2 on? It shouldn't. Its WAY too situational and/or risky and there are a lot of other things I'd rather spend my feats on.

Plus, taking Martial Study/Stance lines you up to take Shadow Blade, which will give you more damage output over the course of your characters carreer than Telling Blow could EVER hope to. EVER.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-27, 11:29 PM
Eh, I kinda expect the Rogue to be Wanding Seeking Ray or similar later on anyways when acting at long ranges without even bothering with Sneak Attack. That gives you 5% chance to crit every turn. Seeking Ray for 4d6 damage is a pretty good choice when you're getting only 1 shot per round. You'll hit almost all the time you can activate the wand, but that's only 60% of the time at level 7 with 14 CHA and max UMD ranks. When you've got BAB of 6+ and can afford Bracers of Quick Strike or Boots of Speed for the third shot, the quick loading crossbow can do 3d8+3 (minimum) damage if you hit. Telling Blow gives you about a 50% chance of threatening a critical and adding sneak attack damage once each round at that rate, and Craven is going to add double your character level to that. This brings the crossbow ahead of the wand. There's a higher up-front cost, but lower recurring cost because you're not shelling out 4,500 gp for new wands repeatedly. Plus the crossbow keeps working, whereas 5% of the time the wand will be unusable for a full 24 hours. :smallfrown:

Curmudgeon
2008-11-28, 12:14 AM
Pearl of Power 3s. Keen Edges is a 3rd level spell. Thats 9k gold, unless its crafted. My mistake. Keen Edge (singular) is a 3rd level spell. Better to just entreat the caster to see the value of this boost to keep enemies from getting too close.

Ok, how much is this crossbow of yours? 8,335 gp. It's not hard to figure that out.

So, are you building a ranged rogue? Or a melee rogue? If the former, you are doing it all wrong by not getting Rapid Shot instead of Telling Blow Rapid Shot requires Point Blank Shot, so that's two feats to get a benefit only with ranged weapons and only with full attacks, and reducing the chances of hitting for all attacks. I'd rather buy Bracers of Quick Strike, then later Boots of Speed, for an extra shot, without penalties. And a wand of Divine Power after that.

But I reject your assumption that I have to choose to be effective at range or in melee. The DM is going to create encounters without reference to my character's capabilities, and I'd rather be decently effective at both rather than good at one and just a spectator the rest of the time. You're blithely throwing around multiple feat requirements that are only suited to one type of encounter, and I think that sucks. I don't want to spend half the time in combat doing nothing. It's boring for me as a player, and can be disastrous for the party if my Rogue isn't effective when needed.

As a Rogue, most of my damage will come from sneak attack. Craven makes a Rogue effective in combat, and it isn't dependent on whether you use missile or melee weapons. Telling Blow works with all critical hits, melee or ranged. It has good synergy with the wide threat range of the best Rogue melee weapon, the keen rapier, and is decent with one of the reasonable missile weapon choices, the quick loading crossbow. And it extends the combat effectiveness of the Rogue both in melee (when there's concealment, for instance) and at range. Because the feat works in so many different situations, it doesn't have to be an overwhelming winner in any one of them. It's a statistical winner.

With feats so precious for Rogues, multi-feat options have got to have multiple returns to be worthwhile. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree is one of the poorest investments in the game. Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot work pretty much the same way. Martial Study and Martial Stance, if you're going for Island of Blades, is just as expensive and just as situational. Dodge and Mobility to get to Spring Attack is also too expensive -- but buying Mobility as an armor enhancement, and also taking a level of Shadowdancer with the same feat prerequisites, can make Spring Attack worth consideration: it's multiple returns for multiple feats.

D&D has hundreds of feats. Do the cost-benefit analysis and you'll discover that most of them aren't good investments. Deadly Precision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#deadlyPrecision) looks good to some people, but the return is only +0.21 damage/Rogue level -- vs. +1 damage/character level for Craven. And some of them that don't seem to have big paybacks, like Telling Blow, can outshine other choices with the right equipment.

Keld Denar
2008-11-28, 12:20 AM
Seeking Ray for 4d6 damage is a pretty good choice when you're getting only 1 shot per round. You'll hit almost all the time you can activate the wand, but that's only 60% of the time at level 7 with 14 CHA and max UMD ranks. When you've got BAB of 6+ and can afford Bracers of Quick Strike or Boots of Speed for the third shot, the quick loading crossbow can do 3d8+3 (minimum) damage if you hit. Telling Blow gives you about a 50% chance of threatening a critical and adding sneak attack damage once each round at that rate, and Craven is going to add double your character level to that. This brings the crossbow ahead of the wand. There's a higher up-front cost, but lower recurring cost because you're not shelling out 4,500 gp for new wands repeatedly. Plus the crossbow keeps working, whereas 5% of the time the wand will be unusable for a full 24 hours. :smallfrown:

A) Bracers of Quickstrike and Boots of Speed both grant haste based attacks, which don't stack. You can never gain more than one attack from a haste effect. You clould be under the effects of Haste and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful while duel wielding +1 Speed short swords and activate your Quickstrike Bracers all in the same round, but you'd still only get 1 extra attack.

B) How is a 7th level character you proposed affording a 9000g Pearl of Power, a 3000g Lesser Rod of Extend, a XX000 gold crossbow, 12000g Boots of Speed, and what are Quickstrike Bracers, about 3-4k? Oh, and this is all 2ndary gear for your build, so lets add on a pair of +1 at least short swords, some +1 armor, a +2 dex item, a +2 con item, and about 10k in miscelaneous gear? What are we up to, 40k gold? I can build you a BADASS commoner with that kind of cash at that level.

C) Your defense of your points are flimsy at best. Lots of circumstantial conditions, and a metric crap ton of gold spent to make them viable. I mean, you're almost reminding me of a certain monk fan, who investes heavily in the partially charged wand market. I've already conceded that Telling Blow isn't the worst feat in the world, I mean, you could be taking Toughness 7 times. But its not the BE ALL END ALL of roguedom. Far from it. Criting just isn't reliable enough to build around. There are tons of other feats to take that increase your damage, survivability, applicability of SA, and general badassery of being a rogue that Telling Blow just doesn't provide.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-28, 12:25 AM
Pearl of Power 3s. Keen Edges is a 3rd level spell. Thats 9k gold, unless its crafted. My mistake. Keen Edge (singular) is a 3rd level spell. Better to just entreat the caster to see the value of this boost to keep enemies from getting too close.

Ok, how much is this crossbow of yours? 8,335 gp. It's not hard to figure that out.

So, are you building a ranged rogue? Or a melee rogue? If the former, you are doing it all wrong by not getting Rapid Shot instead of Telling Blow Rapid Shot requires Point Blank Shot, so that's two feats to get a benefit only with ranged weapons and only with full attacks, and reducing the chances of hitting for all attacks. I'd rather buy Bracers of Quick Strike, then later Boots of Speed, for an extra shot, without penalties. And a wand of Divine Power after that.

But I reject your assumption that I have to choose to be effective at range or in melee. The DM is going to create encounters without reference to my character's capabilities, and I'd rather be decently effective at both rather than good at one and mainly a spectator in the other case. You're blithely throwing around multiple feat requirements that are only suited to one type of encounter, and I think that sucks. I don't want to spend half the time in combat doing nothing. It's boring for me as a player, and can be disastrous for the party if my Rogue isn't effective when needed.

As a Rogue, most of my damage will come from sneak attack. Craven makes a Rogue effective in combat, and it isn't dependent on whether you use missile or melee weapons. Telling Blow works with all critical hits, melee or ranged. It has good synergy with the wide threat range of the best Rogue melee weapon, the keen rapier, and is decent with one of the reasonable missile weapon choices, the quick loading crossbow. And it extends the combat effectiveness of the Rogue both in melee (when there's concealment, for instance) and at range. It gets extra mileage by also multiplying Craven's bonus damage. Because the feat works in so many different situations, it doesn't have to be an overwhelming winner in any one of them. It's a statistical winner.

With feats so precious for Rogues, multi-feat options have got to have multiple returns to be worthwhile. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree is one of the poorest investments in the game. Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot work pretty much the same way. Martial Study and Martial Stance, if you're going for Island of Blades, is just as expensive and just as situational. Dodge and Mobility to get to Spring Attack is also too expensive -- but buying Mobility as an armor enhancement, and also taking a level of Shadowdancer with the same feat prerequisites, can make Spring Attack worth consideration: it's multiple returns for multiple feats.

D&D has hundreds of feats. Do the cost-benefit analysis and you'll discover that most of them aren't good investments. Deadly Precision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#deadlyPrecision) looks good to some people, but the return is only +0.21 damage/Rogue level -- vs. +1 damage/character level for Craven. And some of them that don't seem to have big paybacks, like Telling Blow, can outshine other choices with the right equipment.

Keld Denar
2008-11-28, 01:23 AM
My mistake. Keen Edge (singular) is a 3rd level spell. Better to just entreat the caster to see the value of this boost to keep enemies from getting too close.
8,335 gp. It's not hard to figure that out.

Yea, they are gonna spend a whole spell slot, which at level 7 (the level you keep talking about, but not spending too) thats his 2nd highest level spell slot, which would be much better utilized on something like Slow or Stinking Cloud which will disable the opponent significantly, making whatever damage you plan to do to them less risky. Itsn't that what the game is all about?


Rapid Shot requires Point Blank Shot, so that's two feats to get a benefit only with ranged weapons and only with full attacks, and reducing the chances of hitting for all attacks. I'd rather buy Bracers of Quick Strike, then later Boots of Speed, for an extra shot, without penalties. And a wand of Divine Power after that.

You wanna build a ranged rogue build? Good for you, not hard. You want to build a melee build? Good for you, not hard. Trying to do both at once is rather foolhardy. I take it you've never played at high levels before? I'm talking 12-15, where the real bad monsters come into play, but you don't have a full level 20 build. I have, with DMs who like to optimize encounters. The role of a melee character is to sit tight near his casters and wait for either the monsters to come to him so he can make with the full attacking, or stick near his casters so that they can teleport him into a position where he can do something MEANINGFUL in combat, not flip a coin and hopes it comes up tails so he can do 20 damage to the big monster. D&D doesn't work like that. If it does, then you must have a softball DM who doesn't like to challenge you. If thats the way you want to play? Good for you. Just don't go around spouting off as if you have all the answers. If you don't like playing at high levels, then quit telling me you have the gold of a character twice your level in your examples. Like I said, I can build a pretty badass commoner with the kind of cash you are dropping.


But I reject your assumption that I have to choose to be effective at range or in melee. The DM is going to create encounters without reference to my character's capabilities, and I'd rather be decently effective at both rather than good at one and mainly a spectator in the other case. You're blithely throwing around multiple feat requirements that are only suited to one type of encounter, and I think that sucks. I don't want to spend half the time in combat doing nothing. It's boring for me as a player, and can be disastrous for the party if my Rogue isn't effective when needed.

See above comment on high level play (12-15 level range)


As a Rogue, most of my damage will come from sneak attack. Craven makes a Rogue effective in combat, and it isn't dependent on whether you use missile or melee weapons. Telling Blow works with all critical hits, melee or ranged. It has good synergy with the wide threat range of the best Rogue melee weapon, the keen rapier, and is decent with one of the reasonable missile weapon choices, the quick loading crossbow. And it extends the combat effectiveness of the Rogue both in melee (when there's concealment, for instance) and at range. It gets extra mileage by also multiplying Craven's bonus damage. Because the feat works in so many different situations, it doesn't have to be an overwhelming winner in any one of them. It's a statistical winner.

Right, SA is a rogues primary mode of damage, why leave it to chance? Statistically TB ISN'T a winner. It barely crosses the finish line. Where is your math? I gave mine for a typical level 7 rogue. Let me tell you, those numbers only get uglier as levels get higher.


With feats so precious for Rogues, multi-feat options have got to have multiple returns to be worthwhile. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree is one of the poorest investments in the game. Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot work pretty much the same way. Martial Study and Martial Stance, if you're going for Island of Blades, is just as expensive and just as situational. Dodge and Mobility to get to Spring Attack is also too expensive -- but buying Mobility as an armor enhancement, and also taking a level of Shadowdancer with the same feat prerequisites, can make Spring Attack worth consideration: it's multiple returns for multiple feats.

Two Weapon Fighting is one of the BEST investments that a rogue can make. More attacks grant more SA, and the -2 on all attacks is minor at every level. The extra attacks all get the full benefit of SA and Craven, rather than your "critting is like hitting twice" theory. And I only mentioned Island of Blades as a counter to your profered idea of using Telling Blow as a primary mode of delivering SA. Island of Blades is a much more reliable method of delivering SA, but a truely savvy rogue wouldn't need it. If it was really that vital, a 2 level dip in Swordsage would hardly be missed, as you'd Island and Assassins to swap out as needed, plus other amazing manuvers like Cloak of Deception and Sudden Leap. Then you could spend the feats on Shadow Blade and Two Weapon Fighting, much more solid investments.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-28, 02:01 AM
I'd rather buy Bracers of Quick Strike, then later Boots of Speed, for an extra shot, without penalties.

A) Bracers of Quickstrike and Boots of Speed both grant haste based attacks, which don't stack. Never said they did. They're different options for different phases of the character's development, depending on available resources, and I made it clear they would give one extra shot.

B) How is a 7th level character you proposed
Huh? I'm not. It was Eldariel who proposed using a wand of Seeking Ray, and I said that was a decent choice when your BAB only gives one shot, which is the case through Rogue level 7. I suggested a quick loading crossbow after you get BAB +6, which doesn't happen until level 8 at the earliest. You'd need to get to level 9 to pick up the next feat to leverage that: Telling Blow, so that's the earliest you would buy or upgrade this gear as I suggested.

affording a 9000g Pearl of Power Not. I retracted that proposal when you pointed out that Keen Edge isn't a 1st level spell.

a 3000g Lesser Rod of Extend, a XX000 gold crossbow, 8,335 gp
12000g Boots of Speed, Again, not. That's a later replacement for Bracers of Quick Strike.
and what are Quickstrike Bracers, about 3-4k?
No, Bracers of Quick Strike are 1,400 gp.
Oh, and this is all 2ndary gear for your build, so lets add on a pair of +1 at least short swords What a positively ludicrous assumption. Here I've been decrying the TWF feat tree as a bad investment, and extolling the keen rapier (8,320 gp) as the best Rogue melee weapon. On both counts dual short swords make no sense. What exactly are you inhaling?

The total for this gear is 21,055, and that covers melee and missile options. You're left with 14,945 gp at level 9 if you're living within a standard Wealth by Level budget, which no self-respecting Rogue would ever consider acceptable. But let's do a conservative equipment budget anyway. A +1 mithral chain shirt is 2,100 gp. Gloves of Dexterity +2 are 4,000 gp. An Amulet of Natural Armor +1 is 2,000 gp. A Ring of Protection +1 is 2,000 gp. A Cloak of Resistance +2 is 4,000 gp. That covers all the magical basics, boosting your AC by +8, missile and Weapon Finesse melee hits by +1, and saves by +2/+3/+2. Masterwork thieves' tools are only 100 gp, and mundane gear isn't expensive enough to itemize. (If you were a particularly savvy Rogue, your earnings above the standard WbL formula would probably cover a 12,000 gp Belt of Battle. But I won't even assume that.) I'm not proposing anything cost-prohibitive.

Improved Initiative, Craven, Weapon Finesse, Quick Reconnoiter, and Telling Blow are the feats I'd choose (plus Dodge and Combat Reflexes if flaws were an option). The focus is on sneak attack (1) when enemies are flat-footed, thanks to an initiative mod boosted by +7 (feats and items); (2) by skill tricks such as Acrobatic Backstab, and Hide skill using cover when there's no support; (3) by caster support to supply Greater Invisibility; (4) by support of a flanking partner; and (5) via critical hits, in all of the above cases and in others, via Telling Blow.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-28, 02:32 AM
I got a better idea...

He's needing a +4 LA race? (read the OP) Pixie! Greater Invisibility free of charge, without even needing to spend actions on it. Hello sneak attacks, good bye telling blow. Or Island of Blades.

Of course, it's also got a Cha bonus to it, so that 14 CHA turns into a 20 CHA for a +5 mod. At 7th level, max ranks of 10. So you've got a 75% chance of any given wand to work. Wand of Scorching Ray. Flat-footed touch attack means 10 AC (unless it has size or deflection mods). Try MISSING that with a Dex bonus of +8 and a SIZE bonus of +1. Even if your dex started out as a 14 (stupid for a rogue, but just for argument's sake) you'd end up with a 22, for a +6. A level 7 rogue has a BAB of +5. You'd end up with a +12 to hit a 10 AC...

Of course, that just means every opponent will either be a class with Improved Uncanny Dodge (so they aren't flat-footed or flanked) or immune to sneak attack (goems, constructs, and do remember non-core spells are banned so no golembane or gravebane), in which case nothing either of you propose will have any effect anyways.

Keld Denar
2008-11-28, 03:26 AM
What exactly are you inhaling?
Thanks for the insult!

First off, what do you mean about no self respecting rogue holds himself to WBL? WBL isn't a goal or a choice even. Its primarily a tool used by DMs to gage your str. If you are above WBL, especially by a lot, then you get extra CRs stacked on the baddies you face. Simple as that. I personally like my foes difficult, but still within my CR range. I'd rather not give any of my DMs licsense to throw any many EL+4 or EL+5s at me. Bragging about having more than WBL guidelines is an open invitation for DMs to either cull your gear, or just tack a couple extra HD on everything you fight, which technically doesn't earn you much more xp, since its a "level apporpriate" encounter by the time you factor in gear. Harder fights with no rewards? NT!

Second, Amulet of Natural Armor and Ring of Protection are crap. They don't give you hardly any bonus for your investment. Get a Periept of Health for the price of those 2 combined, the extra hp will save your butt, and actually scale with level.

Those are your feats, the feats I'd take would be:
1 Two Weapon Fighting
1 Craven
3 Weapon Finess
6 Shadow Blade
9 More Two Weapon Fighting
12 Staggering Strike
15 Final Two Weapon Fighting

Assuming Human with 1 level of Swordsage at 3-6 somewhere. This gives Cloak of Deception, Sudden Leap, Island of Blades stance, and a few other gems. Weapons of choice would be Duel Wielded Short Swords or Daggers, both of which are Shadow Hand weapons, which would benefit from the free Weapon Focus feat (School Focus actually, same result) and Shadow Blade technique. A 2nd level of Swordsage would probably be taken somewhere around 8 or 9, to get Assassins Stance and probably Dancing Mongoose.

Gear would probably be a pair of +1 Shadow Hand Short Swords. These would give me a +4 to hit while in a Shadow Hand stance (always) which would give me a great chance to hit. 16600 and change for the set. On top of those, a +2 Dex and +2 Con item, another 8k. This comes to just over 24k, leaving me with about 10,000 more. A pair of Deathstrike Bracers (against undead or constructs or plants or oozes) and probably a +2 resistance cloak and a pair of Anklets of Translocation and non-magical Mithril Chain Shirt.

Now, in a full attack, given haste (my wizards LOVE to cast Haste, especially in the 5-10 level range) my attacks at 9 assuming an 18 starting dex and 2 bumps and the +2 gloves yields (6 BAB, +4 weapon, +6 dex, +1 focus, +1 haste) or +18 single attack bonus, with an full at +16/+16/+16/+11/+11, EACH getting sneak attack and craven damage, plus Shadow Blade. That means that as a Rogue7/SS2, I have 4d6 SA if I use Island, 6d6 if I use Assassin's. 5 attacks times 4 dice is 20d6 damage, plus 5 times 6 for Shadow Blade, and 5 times 9 for Craven, totaling to about 145 damage if all attacks hit. Getting into flank isn't hard, with Sudden Leap and Anklets both able to move you about 10' as a swift action. You should be full attacking on pretty much every round after the first.

If combat starts at extreme long range, wait near the mage for the port n pwn tactic. The guys I typically play with are masters of it. The two mages I play with BRAG about how their Dimension Door spells are the spells they know with the highest damage output, since porting 2 PAing fighters and a rogue who were delaying into full attack position will do 400-500 damage depending on conditions. Thats team play...D&D containing more than just yourself.

Oh, and I didn't even include a +2 for flanking (or invisible) or a +4ish for Bard Song, or a +3 for Recitation, or any of the other buffs that a standard party would throw up.

See, my build is solid, pulls its weight in combat, still retains full use outside of combat with skills the same as yours, and doesn't rely on sketchy tactics like relying on crits to get numbers on the board. Now, shortswords crit on a 19-20, which is only 1 less than your unmodded rapier, and if I really cared, I'd put keen on them as well, but I feel like I get more bang for my buck with the Shadow Hand enhancement on them. The next upgrade I'd put on them would either be Deadly Precision for more SA, or Wounding to go straight for the kidneys.

EDIT: Sneaky, wtf are you talking about? OP wanted a level 7 human rogue, not a +4 LA. I think you are thinking of a different thread. Probably should go to sleep. :P

Curmudgeon
2008-11-28, 03:59 AM
First off, what do you mean about no self respecting rogue holds himself to WBL? WBL isn't a goal or a choice even. Its primarily a tool used by DMs to gage your str. No, it's the average worth of gear of characters at the same level. A Rogue should always get their fair share, and more: a fair split of all the party-acquired goods, plus opportunities for the Rogue to pick up extra cash on the side. If the Rogue only earns as much as other party members, they're not playing to the class's strengths. What do you think the Rogue should be doing when the Cleric is praying or the Wizard is writing in their spellbook? Hauling in extra gp, of course!

Second, Amulet of Natural Armor and Ring of Protection are crap. They don't give you hardly any bonus for your investment. Get a Periept of Health for the price of those 2 combined, the extra hp will save your butt, and actually scale with level. You're not making any sense. The Periapt of Health (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#periaptofHealth) provides no hit points:
Periapt of Health

The wearer of this blue gem on a silver chain is immune to disease, including supernatural diseases. Since you're babbling, I'm signing off. Looks like you won!

Keld Denar
2008-11-28, 09:25 AM
No, it's the average worth of gear of characters at the same level. A Rogue should always get their fair share, and more: a fair split of all the party-acquired goods, plus opportunities for the Rogue to pick up extra cash on the side. If the Rogue only earns as much as other party members, they're not playing to the class's strengths. What do you think the Rogue should be doing when the Cleric is praying or the Wizard is writing in their spellbook? Hauling in extra gp, of course!

Wow, thats about the biggest load of BS I've ever seen. So, should the cleric start charging you every time he heals you? Or maybe the wizard every time he casts haste? Screw that, its a team game, and you are all in it together. Pulling a fast one on the loot is gonna get you kicked out of the party or worse. And if you are talking about making money on the side, then again, WBL guidelines. If you surpass it by too far, your effectiveness goes up, and you should be counted as a character of a higher level than you are. This means harder challenges.

Put it like this, I once had a DM who gave us the PCs a choice. We could use 28 PB or 32 PB. If we used 28, most of his badies would use 28 too, if we used 32, then his baddies would use 32. We chose 28. Keeps the power level down a bit so things don't get out of control quite as fast. Make sense to you? You should actually be punished for having too much cash, unless your DM is coddling you. In which case, you aren't being challenged anymore, and you might as well be playing Hello Kitty's Adventure Island.


You're not making any sense. The Periapt of Health (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#periaptofHealth) provides no hit points: Since you're babbling, I'm signing off. Looks like you won!
My bad...AMULET of Health, not Periapt. It was late and I guessed. You'd think when I started spouting off about Con and the 4k price tag, you would have figured it out, but your characters probably never get items to increases their Con, the most basic of survivability increases in the game. Probably because your DM doesn't challenge you at all. If thats the kind of game you like playing? Fine, but like I said, don't come off as the be-all end-all of roguedom. It confuses people, which is the opposite purpose of the forums. I've already mentioned that its not a terrible feat, but its not a good feat, or a feat I would ever recommend to another person. Like you said about the Deadly Precision feat, and like I said about Cleave, Hold the Line, and Close Quarters Combat, it looks better on paper than it does in actual use. Critting is just too unreliable a mechanic to base a character around, even with all of the extra gold and features you spent trying to make it better. You are better off getting into a position where you are garunteed SA, and all of the other circumstances where Telling Blow is good, by your measure, are in my opinion way too circumstancial to be worth investing the resources you keep bringing up.

Oh, and where is your Quickdraw feat in your build? If you don't have it, then you lose more rounds than I do from delaying at the start of combat because when the enemy does present itself, you have to drop your valuable crossbow (making it vulnerable to be smashed or snatched) and draw your weapon and make a single attack. I'd rather lose a round waiting and then be in position to make a strong full attack than spend the round shooting, making myself a target and not doing much damage, then lose my full attack on the 2nd round because I have to switch weapons, and THEN finally get to make a full attack, if I'm not already dead because rather than wait until I could devistate my foe, I made myself annoying and therefore a valid target to be swatted. Now who's in the more dangerous position?

Action economy is the most important thing for a melee character. Unless you are a heavy initiator or a spell caster, you depend on full attacks to contribute. Wasting actions swapping between weapons deny's you full attacks, or requires feat investment. This is why you hardly ever see high level non-archers with ranged weapons. You just can't contribute enough with it, so you wait with your primary weapon for a chance to contribute, because in the long run you'll do more damage that way, and as a melee character, isn't that your role? To do as much damage as possible? Otherwise you are just as useless as a monk.

Tyger
2008-11-28, 02:11 PM
Your armor is a problem. Studded leather imposes a -1 Armor Check Penalty, and you haven't included that -1 Misc. Mod. to all of Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble skills. You should switch to a mithral chain shirt. It'll cost you 1,100 gp instead of 25 gp, but it will remove the ACP, reduce your ASF from 15% to 10%, boost your AC by 1 more, and save you 8.5 pounds of weight.

As noted in the sheet, the armor is masterwork, so no ACP. The points about the invisibility scroll is well taken though, might need to re-evaluate that.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-28, 02:13 PM
Oh, and where is your Quickdraw feat in your build? If you don't have it, then you lose more rounds than I do from delaying at the start of combat because when the enemy does present itself, you have to drop your valuable crossbow (making it vulnerable to be smashed or snatched) and draw your weapon and make a single attack. You're really not thinking clearly. You're talking about using Two-Weapon Fighting, which requires two hands for melee. I'm not. There's no problem at all holding a crossbow in your off hand while you draw a rapier.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If the enemy is near enough and I want my Rogue to engage in melee, I can draw my rapier as I move to close; no Quick Draw is required. If an enemy somehow catches me unaware (unlikely with Quick Reconnoiter providing extra Spot and Listen checks every single round) and closes to melee while I'm still wielding my crossbow, I can take a 5' step back and make a full ranged attack, with Telling Blow providing some sneak attack bonuses. If this suddenly-appearing enemy also has reach, it's tactically prudent to withdraw and Hide from a superior melee opponent, then snipe from cover.

Keld Denar
2008-11-28, 04:26 PM
You're really not thinking clearly. You're talking about using Two-Weapon Fighting, which requires two hands for melee. I'm not. There's no problem at all holding a crossbow in your off hand while you draw a rapier. If the enemy is near enough and I want my Rogue to engage in melee, I can draw my rapier as I move to close; no Quick Draw is required.

You can hold, but not wield the crossbow with 1 hand, you are correct. So, you are shooting it at range, probably less than 100' though, given typical encounter distances. Now it charges you. What do you do, keep shooting? Or melee it? If the former, then WHY AREN'T YOU PLAYING AN ARCHER? I see no Rapid Shot or Precise Shot or Multishot (not that you can use Multishot with an xbow anyway). So you are purposely hindering your role as an archer. If the latter, you miss out on responding to its charge with a fulll attack of your own, simply because you wanted to put 20-30 damage into it while praying for a crit. Low level play this isn't a huge concern, but by level 9 when your build gets Telling Blow and has the resources to afford the bow and the dubious Keen Edges spells on your arrows, action economy is huge. Even with Haste or Quickstrike Bracers, you are still only making 3 attacks per round with either rapier or xbow, while I'm making 5. Sure, I may not get to attack at all the first round, but proper positioning and use of tactics means I'll probably get a full attack in the 2nd round to more than make up for your lost 1/2 round where you swap weapons.


If an enemy somehow catches me unaware (unlikely with Quick Reconnoiter providing extra Spot and Listen checks every single round) and closes to melee while I'm still wielding my crossbow, I can take a 5' step back and make a full ranged attack, with Telling Blow providing some sneak attack bonuses. If this suddenly-appearing enemy also has reach, it's tactically prudent to withdraw and Hide from a superior melee opponent, then snipe from cover.
So, I'm confused again. Are you giving advice for an archer rogue? Or a melee rogue? If you try to do both, as your build shows, you don't do EITHER very good. Duel wielding with my build gets more attacks, which is more damage, and while you invest in a +1 Keen weapon, I invest in a +1 Shadow Hand weapon that more than offsets my duel wielding penalties, meaning my AB is actually HIGHER than yours. While you have your xbow that does very little damage, I have a 2nd short sword, which almost doubles my damage output, again, with better AB than you have with your xbow or rapier, even though I'm duelwielding.

Then enemy doesn't have to suddenly appear to cause a problem. It could easily charge you in most circumstances if it even felt you were a threat to it, which it probably wouldn't because you can't even put out as much as a Power Attacking Fighter/Barb mutt (that isn't Leap Attack pouncing).

Even if you were duel wielding though, probably with +1 Keen kukiri's that have the same threat range as your rapier, you are still either going to be flanking/invisible/blinking/etc that makes Telling Blow redundant. If you are attacking without qualifying for SA, with or without Telling Blow, you are doing it wrong. Most of the time, more often at higher levels than lower, its better to take a move action to tumble where you can flank and take 1 attack than it is to take a full attack from a position that doesn't qualify you for SA. Even if you crit on one of your attacks during that full attack, and have Telling Blow, your damage is going to be hardly any higher than if you HAD tumbled around behind the foe to SA with 1 attack, especially if that foe has DR that you don't penetrate.

So in the end, it isn't really about my build or yours. Its about Telling Blow. And Telling Blow is just not a good feat. Like Deadly Presision you mentioned, it looks good on paper until you see it in actual play and find out that it may only be increasing your damage over the life of your character by a tiny amount, like, .5 (asspull) damage per hit over the course of 100 rounds, compared to if you had actually qualified for SA the normal way, where its 100% garunteed. I'm not really interested in setting up a model to test this, but I can tell you from experience, its not gonna be pretty. So, Telling Blow is a marginal feat with marginal returns that sucks up a large number of resources to produce even mediocre results. Sounds like a certain monk we all know and love to make fun of. Now, if you excuse me, I heard there were some partially charged wands of Keen Edges for sale.

Paul H
2008-11-28, 08:16 PM
Go wizard. You'll do it better, and deal more damage.
Greater invisiblity+ Orb of force. There you have you damage, and your sneak.:smalltongue:

Hi

Poster did say only PHB spells.....

Shame about no 'Complete....' books. Just made up a Rogue/Swashbuckler for NWN2 Storm of Zehir, good Dex, good Int. Just use your imagination......!:smallbiggrin:

Cheers
Paul H

ericgrau
2008-11-28, 11:43 PM
What no mithril? That'll add AC w/o armor check penalty. It's only 1050gp. And I wouldn't use your flaw to dump your AC on a melee rogue or you could get hammered. In fact, I'd invest in a dirt cheap +1 AC enchantment before boosting your hide/MS skills. Then if you still have some cash you can slap those on as armor enchantments, with the advantage that they can be upgraded at higher levels simply by paying the enchanter the difference in price. Look at the magic armor rules; it's the same price as your elvenkind stuff, which can't be upgraded. All that adds up to +3 AC for only 2000gp and a flaw switch. And when your opponent has to roll 3 higher to hit you, he'll get a taste of what a medium BAB feels like. A higher con would likewise be nice for survival. I hate to say this b/c then everybody will dump cha (and they do), but you can still do good enough on your charisma skill checks without a high charisma. Con is much better. But if you want a high cha b/c that's the suave rogue you are, go for it. Just be prepared to feel the pain.

You sure do have a lot of wands and scrolls and yet only a 50% chance that your UMD check will succeed. At least dump the acid orb wand since that's the one you'd have to use during combat, and throwing half your combat rounds down the toilet is a no-no. Even out of combat, you'll be wasting half your chargees on items you have a lot of gold sunk into. If you really want to use all those, just take a 1 level dip into wizard. You'll lose glibness, but you'll gain automatic success on all except invisibility. For invisibility you need to roll a 2 or higher to succeed on your caster level check, i.e. 95% success. I like those odds a lot better. Check the rules on multiclassing and skills. With the skill points you save on UMD, you'll still have just as many ranks in everything else even with the level in wizard. It's just your other rogue abilities and BAB that will get a little hurt. But with that many expendable magic items, it'll be well worth it. That's only 1 level in wizard, no need to ever get more.

I see you came prepared with every item in the PHB and a handy haversack. Nice. The haversack holds 80+20+20lbs. (3 pouches) IIRC. Make sure you're not over.

Get a masterwork shortbow. It's not too much gp and every +1 helps. I'd say get a pair of MW daggers too, but I assume you'll be getting magic ones.

Skills: Most of these require familiarity with the skill rules or you'll only use 4 of them and forget about the rest. Just read up and be prepared. And why did you put ranks in disable device but not search? You need search to find the trap in the first place. If you like skill boosting items, check out goggles of minute seeing. +5 to search checks to find traps and secret doors for only 1,250gp. But at such an early level make sure you have enough gp for everything else first before you blow all that gp on skill boosters (including the hide/move silently boosts, especially since you already have invisibility).