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Fan
2008-11-26, 11:47 AM
I've been leafing through alot of my source books, and aside from Grey elf, and fire elf there arent really that many +0 LA int bonus monsters, or races. Ideas, templates?

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-26, 11:51 AM
Deep Imaskaris, which are mentioned on page 4 of http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf , have +2 Int for -2 Dex, and an ability which works like a Pearl of Power 1.

Celeres
2008-11-26, 11:55 AM
you could talk to your dm and see if you could maybe drop some tiefling abilities and get rid of the +LA. like, can't cast darkness, and is only resistant to only one or two of those elements.

+2 int and dex would be nice for a spellcaster.

theterran
2008-11-26, 11:56 AM
All below have Int bonus

Tinker Gnome, Silvanesti from Dragonlance
Lesser Air Genasi, Lesser Fire Genasi, Lesser Tiefling from Player's Guide to Faerun
Sun Elf from Forgotten Realms
Deep Imaskari from Underdark

That's all I got...

RTGoodman
2008-11-26, 11:58 AM
Grey Elves (with or without adding aging rules for more bonuses to Int) are usually considered one of the better races considering just how much a Wizard gets from high Int (EDIT: and the Elf racial substitution levels that are REALLY good, as Tippy pointed out below). Humans and Strongheart Halflings are also good, as usual, with the added bonus that the Halflings are Small-sized, a plus for casters, usually. Gnomes and Whisper Gnomes (RoS) are both gonna be pretty good with the Small size, illusions, and Con bonus, and can lead in to several powerful builds involving Shadowcraft Mage stuff.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 12:00 PM
Grey Elf because of their alternate class features and Faerie Mysteries Initiate.

Dragonwrought Kobold's are nice as well because you can start as venerable (+3 to all mental stats) without any penalties and you qualify for some epic feats. Specifically Great Intelligence. Using flaws and an 18 base you can start at level 1 with an Int score of 24 and hit an Int score of 30 at level 12 (before items are accounted for).

But if you aren't using dragonwrought kobold cheese then Grey Elf is your best choice.

Fan
2008-11-26, 12:03 PM
Grey Elf because of their alternate class features and Faerie Mysteries Initiate.

Dragonwrought Kobold's are nice as well because you can start as venerable (+3 to all mental stats) without any penalties and you qualify for some epic feats. Specifically Great Intelligence. Using flaws and an 18 base you can start at level 1 with an Int score of 24 and hit an Int score of 30 at level 12 (before items are accounted for).

But if you aren't using dragonwrought kobold cheese then Grey Elf is your best choice.

Grey elf racial substitution levels are from where?
I cant exactly find where that is from.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 12:06 PM
Grey elf racial substitution levels are from where?
I cant exactly find where that is from.

Elf substitution levels. From Races of the Wild. Elf Generalist is nice if you don't want to specialize and the one that doubles your familiars bonus is even nicer.

Project_Mayhem
2008-11-26, 12:07 PM
Elf substitution levels. From Races of the Wild. Elf Generalist is nice if you don't want to specialize and the one that doubles your familiars bonus is even nicer.

Also on crystalkeep

Darrin
2008-11-26, 01:32 PM
I've been leafing through alot of my source books, and aside from Grey elf, and fire elf there arent really that many +0 LA int bonus monsters, or races. Ideas, templates?

Lesser Tiefling (+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha) and Lesser Air Genasi (+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha) both get Int bonuses.

Tinker Gnome (+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Str, -2 Wis) from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

Complacent Humans (Dragon #320, a World of Warcraft III variant race) gain a +2 bonus on the stat of their choice, but lose their free bonus feat and extra skill points.

I don't really see any low-LA templates that buff Int (except maybe Voidmind, but shall we say it has some drawbacks).

Eloel
2008-11-26, 02:03 PM
I've used Gray Elf with just passing the middle age limit. It works wonders stat-wise.

monty
2008-11-26, 02:59 PM
Grey Elf because of their alternate class features and Faerie Mysteries Initiate.

Dragonwrought Kobold's are nice as well because you can start as venerable (+3 to all mental stats) without any penalties and you qualify for some epic feats. Specifically Great Intelligence. Using flaws and an 18 base you can start at level 1 with an Int score of 24 and hit an Int score of 30 at level 12 (before items are accounted for).

But if you aren't using dragonwrought kobold cheese then Grey Elf is your best choice.

How are you getting 24? I'm seeing 18 base + 3 venerable + 2 feats = 23. Remember that Dragonwrought takes a feat.

Mephit
2008-11-26, 03:02 PM
How are you getting 24? I'm seeing 18 base + 3 venerable + 2 feats = 23. Remember that Dragonwrought takes a feat.

Wait. When did feats turn into stat modifiers?

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 03:03 PM
How are you getting 24? I'm seeing 18 base + 3 venerable + 2 feats = 23. Remember that Dragonwrought takes a feat.

Oh yeah, 23.

Still 3 better than anything else at that LA. And at level 20 you can have a truly outrageous Int.

Yukitsu
2008-11-26, 03:04 PM
Wait. When did feats turn into stat modifiers?

Ever since wizards released a feat that stopped physical decay with age.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-26, 03:05 PM
The problem with using age penalties with Gray Elves is that you already have a Con penalty, so you're going to have issues if someone manages to hit you unless your dice rolls were really high.

Yukitsu
2008-11-26, 03:07 PM
Yeah, grey elf wizards make for pretty good undead. Necropolitan is a pretty decent way to go for an ancient one, if you can survive with polymorph any object.

Fan
2008-11-26, 03:09 PM
So, Dragonwrought Kobold for 23 int?
Sounds good to me.

Mephit
2008-11-26, 03:10 PM
Ever since wizards released a feat that stopped physical decay with age.

Yeah, I'm aware of the Dragonwrought feat - I love kobolds myself, and I've played a Dragonwrought one too. I'm more confused about the feats turning into +1 intelligence...

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 03:11 PM
Yeah, I'm aware of the Dragonwrought feat - I love kobolds myself, and I've played a Dragonwrought one too. I'm more confused about the feats turning into +1 intelligence...

Great Intelligence. It's an epic feat.

Yukitsu
2008-11-26, 03:12 PM
It doesn't. Tippy says 23 right after that.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-26, 03:12 PM
I forgot about Necropolitan (admittedly, I hate Undead, so they aren't something I'd want to play as).

Mephit
2008-11-26, 03:15 PM
Great Intelligence. It's an epic feat.

Ah. Well, I won't argue with you on RAW, since I'm too tired. But whether any reasonable DM (who doesn't want an insanely high-powered campaign) would allow that is debatable.

Fan
2008-11-26, 03:17 PM
Ah, so 22. That works just as well for my purposes. a Dc 18 spell is good enough for me! (1st lvl, spell focus, and int!)

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 03:22 PM
Ah, so 22. That works just as well for my purposes. a Dc 18 spell is good enough for me! (1st lvl, spell focus, and int!)

23.

18 Base
3 from Venerable
2 from Great Intelligence

Curmudgeon
2008-11-26, 06:20 PM
Dragonwrought Kobold's are nice as well because you can start as venerable (+3 to all mental stats) without any penalties and you qualify for some epic feats. Specifically Great Intelligence. I don't see any way that that works. The basic rule for Epic feats is:
At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat. Care to explain?

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 06:35 PM
I don't see any way that that works. The basic rule for Epic feats is: Care to explain?

Dragon-wrought changes a Kobold's type to dragon.

Draconomicion page 66 says

EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher.
Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even
if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appro-
priate for dragons is presented here. See the Epic Level Hand-
book for more epic feats.

RAW any dragon of at least Old age can qualify for epic feats, no matter their HD or class levels. And RAW a dragon-wrought kobold is a dragon.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-26, 06:39 PM
Aha. Very sneaky.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-26, 06:46 PM
Aha. Very sneaky.

Very cheap you mean.

Although most of the really nice ones have other prerequisites that you can't meet pre epic (skill requirements mostly).

Fan
2008-11-26, 07:56 PM
The infinte defelction feat doesnt have any epic pre reqs.:smallbiggrin:

Thurbane
2008-11-26, 08:02 PM
So, what is old age for a DW kobold? :smallbiggrin:

monty
2008-11-26, 08:17 PM
So, what is old age for a DW kobold? :smallbiggrin:

41, if I remember right. They don't even need to be middle-aged.