[3.5] Two questions about rods and Armor Proficiency

[Gerion]

Hi.

At first I have a question on Nightsticks from Libris Mortis.
What must I do to gain the benefit of them.
My Dm says that I have to hold them in the hand using the same magic item slot as a shild (and so i can`t carry a shield in combat). An if i put it back in my backpack losing the extra turns
(say 5 turns base, equip the nigthstick -> 9 turns, I use two turns, put the nightstick back -> 3 turns left)
In my oppinion i just have to posses the Stick so carrying it arround in the backpack is enough.
Who's right about this?


The other Question is about the Complete Champion book.
I cannot find the Weapon andA rmor Proficiency of the prestige classes.
have they been forgotten or are i just blind and don't see them?

[KKL]

By RAW, all you really have to do to gain the bonus of the Nightsticks is just...cart them around. You don't have to be wielding it.

Your DM might (and in this case, has) rule(d) that you have to be holding them, which puts a bit of damper on cheese.

[VerdugoExplode]

Tell your DM that in battle you grip them in your teeth in a very swashbuckler-ish fashion.

Also in regards to the complete champion they don't seem to be there which probably means you can assume they don't grant any sort of armor or weapons proficiency.

[Prak]

I generally figure rods have to be beared (born?), ie, either held, or hung from/thrust through a belt, but putting it in your pack or a bag of holding wouldn't work. in other words, blatently displayed in some way.

but, as KKL said, it seems your dm has house ruled this.


Also in regards to the complete champion they don't seem to be there which probably means you can assume they don't grant any sort of armor or weapons proficiency.
Actually, if a class doesn't say anything at all about weapon or armour proficiency it was probably left out, look for errata, as the standard text says something along the lines of "The [w/e] is not proficient in /does not gain proficiency with any armour or weapons"

[Fax Celestis]

By RAW, all you really have to do to gain the bonus of the Nightsticks is just...cart them around. You don't have to be wielding it.

Your DM might (and in this case, has) rule(d) that you have to be holding them, which puts a bit of damper on cheese.

it depends. Rods all require you to grasp them to activate them. So do you count a nightstick as a rod or a wondrous item?

[Keld Denar]

it depends. Rods all require you to grasp them to activate them. So do you count a nightstick as a rod or a wondrous item?

Thats an easy question to answer. Referencing LM pg 78, the book where Nightsticks come from, state that they are quantified as Rods, and require the Craft Rod feat to manufacture. Thus, they are Rods, not Wonderous Items.

EDIT: Which leads to some funny situations regarding one of the other Rods from Libris Mortis. The Rod of Undead Mastery allows its wielder to control twice as many undead as normal. Now, make sure you don't ever go to sleep, or get stunned, or disarmed, or otherwise lose control of the Rod. Having 1/2 of your minions all of a sudden become uncontrollable could end you up on the wrong end of the BRAINS moan.

[KKL]

it depends. Rods all require you to grasp them to activate them. So do you count a nightstick as a rod or a wondrous item?

The text in Libris Mortis only imply that you have to have the Nightstick on your person in order for it to function.

[Keld Denar]

The text in Libris Mortis only imply that you have to have the Nightstick on your person in order for it to function.



Nightstick: This black rod...Anyone who possesses the rod and is able to turn or rebuke undead gains four more uses of the ability per day.

It would appear KKL is right. The term possesses indicates that you would meerly have to have the rod on your person. Other rods on the same page (Defiance and Undead Mastery) specifically mention wield or hold respectively, which would require a free hand. Posess is much less specific.

[Tacoma]

You can conceivably enchant a Wand of Fireball to give +1 Luck bonus to saves. No reason why not. But what would you have to DO with the wand in order to get the bonus? Unless you spent double to make the Luck bonus as a non-item-space power then you'd have to wield it in your hand.

I think the Nightstick might be the same way. It's an item that grants a bonus while held, but you have to take up the correct item space.

D&D is notorious about vague descriptive text getting in the way of the gameplay. You might see text about an item having "arcane and eldritch forces" but you can't read into that as the item having both Arcane and some kind of new magical type in it.

I'd say when it talks about "bearing" the item it means actually using it like every other item of its type is used. That is, held in the hand and taking up a hand item space.

EDIT: Have a blacksmith make you a shield that you can use the rod in as a detatchable handhold for the shield. Then have the separate shield enchanted to whatever. Insert rod. You are now wielding the rod in your hand and you have the defensive benefits of the shield. And if you ever find another rod you can switch them out, though you would still have to spend actions activating that rod.

[Fax Celestis]

Can a nightstick fit in a wand chamber?

[Keld Denar]

Quick review of Dungeonscape gives no answer. There are no dimensions to the size of a wand chamber. I'd assume that in a long-handled type weapon, such as a mace or axe, it would be possible, but in a shorter handled weapon like a dagger or sword, it wouldn't. I can't reference my DMG atm to get the typical dimensions of a rod though.

A shield can be equipped with a wand chamber as well, and would definitely have the space available to house a ~2' long rod inside.

[Thurbane]

It says on one of the books, maybe Rules Compendium under the drawing weapons section, that wands count as light weapons, and rods count as one handed, so I'd says rods wouldn't fit in a wand chamber. I'll see if I can find the exact quote when I have my books handy.

[Gerion]

Actually, if a class doesn't say anything at all about weapon or armour proficiency it was probably left out, look for errata, as the standard text says something along the lines of "The [w/e] is not proficient in /does not gain proficiency with any armour or weapons"

nowhere in the book or the errata it says anything about armour proficiency.
thats why i'm wondering....

my Dm wants me to define (better to say where WotC defined) possesses.
Because if a rogue steals it from me i would still be the possessor because i've paid for the item.....

Hmmm where can I find this wand chamber

[Keld Denar]

Wand Chambers are in Dungeonscape, near the beginning of Chapter 3, IIRC. Non-magical item enhancements.

[Eloel]

Because if a rogue steals it from me i would still be the possessor because i've paid for the item.....
Wrong. It's the rogue's after he steals it. Just like a treasure is your's after you kill a dragon.

[Epinephrine]

At first I have a question on Nightsticks from Libris Mortis.
What must I do to gain the benefit of them.
My Dm says that I have to hold them in the hand using the same magic item slot as a shild (and so i can`t carry a shield in combat). An if i put it back in my backpack losing the extra turns
(say 5 turns base, equip the nigthstick -> 9 turns, I use two turns, put the nightstick back -> 3 turns left)
In my oppinion i just have to posses the Stick so carrying it arround in the backpack is enough.
Who's right about this?

Your DM. He runs the game, and decides issues like this.



The text in Libris Mortis only imply that you have to have the Nightstick on your person in order for it to function.

The text about armour in the Player's Handbook never specifically says that you must wear armour to benefit from it. It mentions how long it takes to put on armour, and makes reference in the section on Armour Check penalties to "wearing" armour, and to "sleeping in" armour; likewise, it mentions that one must have the right proficiency to wear armour effectively. But in the paragraph about Armour Bonus, it simply says,

"Each armor grants an armor bonus to AC,
while shields grant a shield bonus to AC. The armor bonus from a
suit of armor doesn’t stack with other effects or items that grant an
armor bonus, such as the mage armor spell or bracers of armor..
Similarly, the shield bonus from a shield doesn’t stack with other
effects that grant a shield bonus, such as the shield spell."

It never specifically says that the Armour Bonus is granted as a result of wearing the armour. That's the common sense part.

Just because the Nightstick doesn't say that it requires being held doesn't mean that it doesn't. Common sense implies it, as it is a rod, and the DM's ruling is the final decision regardless.

[Roderick_BR]

I think that as long as you don't use it to attack (hitting with it, or casting a spell/attacking with rays from it), you can just carry it in your shield's hand without problem, except for some rare shields (locked shield, for example, don't remember which book, maybe tower shield) that forbids entirely the use of that arm.
You could also get quick draw, if that's really a issue. And remember that dropping something is a free action, if it becomes a issue.

Ah, Casting Gloves. Allows you to store something into your glove, and still activate it, though it counts as a standard action. Dungeon Master 2, if I'm not wrong. Just a bit more expensive than Storing Gloves (SRD)

[Tsotha-lanti]

Don't argue with your DM, because he has made a good ruling to limit one of the most abuseable magic items in the game.

Clerics already need a free hand. Make sure he lets you use the rod in place of a holy symbol when turning, though. Note, technically, though, that you should be able to wear a light shield or buckler and hold a rod at the same time, since neither of those shields take up the hand, they just strap onto the arm.