What is all the controversy about Sabine's race, anyway?

[Flame of Anor]

Seriously, folks, I don't see why it isn't obvious that she's a succubus.

1: Succubi and erinyes are the two hellish types that appear as beautiful women.
2: Succubi can change shape; erinyes cannot. Sabine can.
3: Succubi are personifications of illicit sex; erinyes are not. Sabine is.
4: Succubi have DR/cold iron. Erinyes have DR/good. We know Sabine has either DR/cold iron or DR/silver.
5: Succubi have energy-draining ability; erinyes do not. Sabine does.
6: Succubi are Chaotic; erinyes are Lawful. Sabine acts Chaotically; admittedly this argument is not too strong.

How is there even a question here?

[Sereg]

While I believe that Sabine is a succubus, the inability to determine whether she is a demon or a devil is a running gag and funny trumps rules.

[Zeful]

Seriously, folks, I don't see why it isn't obvious that she's a succubus.

1: Succubi and erinyes are the two hellish types that appear as beautiful women.
2: Succubi can change shape; erinyes cannot. Sabine can.
3: Succubi are personifications of illicit sex; erinyes are not. Sabine is.
4: Succubi have DR/cold iron. Erinyes have DR/good. We know Sabine has either DR/cold iron or DR/silver.
5: Succubi have energy-draining ability; erinyes do not. Sabine does.
6: Succubi are Chaotic; erinyes are Lawful. Sabine acts Chaotically; admittedly this argument is not too strong.

How is there even a question here?
Succubi flee battle, only fighting when they can't escape; Erinyes are full frontal combatants. Sabine doesn't flee unless absolutely necessary.

I can see how it's difficult.

[Flame of Anor]

Succubi flee battle, only fighting when they can't escape; Erinyes are full frontal combatants. Sabine doesn't flee unless absolutely necessary.

I can see how it's difficult.

Attitude can be explained by personal variation; racial abilities cannot.

[Finwe]

Seriously, folks, I don't see why it isn't obvious that she's a succubus.

1: Succubi and erinyes are the two hellish types that appear as beautiful women.
2: Succubi can change shape; erinyes cannot. Sabine can.
3: Succubi are personifications of illicit sex; erinyes are not. Sabine is.
4: Succubi have DR/cold iron. Erinyes have DR/good. We know Sabine has either DR/cold iron or DR/silver.
5: Succubi have energy-draining ability; erinyes do not. Sabine does.
6: Succubi are Chaotic; erinyes are Lawful. Sabine acts Chaotically; admittedly this argument is not too strong.

How is there even a question here?


The author isn't exactly known for limiting himself to material found in the core books.

[Zeful]

Attitude can be explained by personal variation; racial abilities cannot.

Homebrew: Yes they can.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

War and XPs Spoiler:

Rich calls her a succubi in the book, and wonders why more of her kind DON'T like to fight, considering their advantages of DR, etc, in a fight.

Sabine is a succubus.

:smallsmile:

[Nerd-o-rama]

Conclusion:

Sabine is a Succubus
Haley has 0 ranks in Knowledge (The Planes)

[David Argall]

Succubi flee battle, only fighting when they can't escape; Erinyes are full frontal combatants. Sabine doesn't flee unless absolutely necessary.

Sabine fled from the first battle as soon as she was wounded. She "surrendered" to Roy as soon as her buffs ran out.
She stayed in the fight with Elan and Haley, but she thought she was easily winning.

That is not the record of a fighting to the end type.

[Lerky]

honestly Sabine's race isn't that big an issue. Let's look at bigger things like V's gender, if Hayley is pregnant or not, Belkars race:smalltongue:

[Kwinza]

well 1 things for sure if she was pregnant shes not any more due to having most of her stomache riped out a few comics ago....

[Evil DM Mark3]

honestly Sabine's race isn't that big an issue. Let's look at bigger things like V's gender, if Hayley is pregnant or not, Belkars race:smalltongue:

The answers are, in order, succubus, Male, No and the 100 yard stab.

[Samurai Jill]

Agreed. Obviously a succubus.

[Tengu_temp]

Conclusion:

Sabine is a Succubus
Haley has 0 ranks in Knowledge (The Planes)

Knowledge (Religion) can be used to identify outsiders as well, I think. Well, both are cross-class skills for rogues.

[Shatteredtower]

Rich calls her a succubi in the book, and wonders why more of her kind DON'T like to fight, considering their advantages of DR, etc, in a fight.

Sabine is a succubus.

No...

He made reference to "succubi-types."

It's a fine distinction, but a clear one. Back in 2nd Edition, erinyes were consigned to a role similar to succubi, and the 4th Edition designers decided that there wasn't enough difference between them to justify. I never shared either view, but a lotof 1st and 3rd Edition games also tended to portray them as "succubus-types."

Whatever the case, several pieces of evidence suggest that Sabine is not a succubus:

1. Succubi cannot drain energy with a normal attack -- at the very least, they must grapple their victims first. Sabine suffers no such limitations on her ability to drain energy. On the other hand, erinyes have no energy draining abilities at all, nor do they get claw attacks.

2. Sabine has the ability to plane shift once per day, which she's permitted to use only for urgent matters. That's not a succubus power. Then again, it's not an erinyes power either.

3. We've never seen her use greater teleport as a spell-like ability. I can understand why she wouldn't have used it to flee from Roy in strip #355, as she'd been focused on distracting him, but it would have been the most appropriate means of escape back in #62. More to the point, she didn't even consider it as a means of travelling between Cliffport and Azure City in strip #365, despite the fact that she wasn't bringing passengers. Note that this is also an argument against her being an erinyes.

4. Ethereal jaunt might explain her ability to surprise the guard in strip #120, but so would good Hide and Move Silently checks.

5. She's never used telepathy to communicate with Nale, even when it would have been to her advantage. This too suggests that she might not be an erinyres either. Detect thoughts was never used either, but maybe it wasn't considered worth the effort.

6. We've never seen her use charm monster for any reason, even though we've seen Nale casting more than a few charm spells, despite the fact that a succubus can cast it at will.

According to the evidence, she's neither succubus nor erinyes, but rather some homebrew that wasn't going to unbalance the Giant's narrative as much as either of them could.

An erinyes connection could prove relevant for Sabine in one case, however:

A creature that always has true seeing in effect would render most of the illusions used to protect Girard's Gate useless.

[Linkavitch]

Mostly just something to talk about, I think.

[Kurald Galain]

Conclusion:

Sabine is a Succubus
Haley has 0 ranks in Knowledge (The Planes)

Precisely.


(also, if we go into the angle that she's obviously homebrew, let me point out that she plays the classical Succubus archetype to the hilt, whereas she's completely unrelated to an Erinyes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes), and indeed the only place where an Erinyes is considered "something similar to a Succubus" is in the D&D monstrous manual).

[hamishspence]

I wondered if she was a homebrew half-fiend, and Haley's bow wasn't magic then, but the special metal arrows were.

unlikely though. Erinyes and brachina have feathered wings- the only bat winged, tailed, female devil I've seen rules for was Glasya- who is far too powerful to fit.

[Flame of Anor]

The answers are, in order, succubus, Male, No and the 100 yard stab.

Almost there...so close...

Here are the answers:

1. Succubus
2. Male
3. No
4. 100 yard stab
5. ????
6. PROFIT!!!

[NeonRonin]

For the time being, I shall call her an Erinyubus. How such a being could come into existence, is known only to the Great Deity who rules over all Deities- the GM. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Lilins were that, in Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors monster books.

(one male erinyes is in Exemplars of Evil)

[Arlion]

AAAA ...but are succubi devils or demons?

[MReav]

AAAA ...but are succubi devils or demons?

They used to be demons, now they're devils.

[The Minx]

No...

He made reference to "succubi-types."

It's a fine distinction, but a clear one. Back in 2nd Edition, erinyes were consigned to a role similar to succubi, and the 4th Edition designers decided that there wasn't enough difference between them to justify. I never shared either view, but a lotof 1st and 3rd Edition games also tended to portray them as "succubus-types."

I have always felt miffed about this. Really, going by 3rd edition erinyes how are they similar to Succubi? On the one hand we have manipulative seducers who use guile and trickery (and a huge Cha bonus) and on the other we have raging warrior women whose name is the Roman name for the "furies".

What do they have in common other than being fiends? Ah, yes. Boobies. Can't see past that. :smallannoyed:

Sorry, this is just a pet peeve of mine. And Sabine is totally a Succubus.

[Zevox]

Sabine definitely displays more Succubus traits than those of any other fiend, but as Shatteredtower said, there is also significant reason to believe she isn't your standard Succubus. Succubus is probably the most accurate name for her species, but she's most likely some homebrew or unique version, rather than an atypical one.


I have always felt miffed about this. Really, going by 3rd edition erinyes how are they similar to Succubi? On the one hand we have manipulative seducers who use guile and trickery (and a huge Cha bonus) and on the other we have raging warrior women whose name is the Roman name for the "furies".

What do they have in common other than being fiends? Ah, yes. Boobies. Can't see past that. :smallmad:

Sorry, this is just a pet peeve of mine.
I agree, having entered D&D during 3rd edition myself, that was always the impression I got of the two. Only alike in that they're female winged humanoid fiends. The similarities end there. And honestly, I feel that's best. It would be pretty redundant to have effectively identical fiends on each side of the Demon/Devil divide.

(Before anyone points it out, yes, I'm aware that there are a few who are such, like Imps and Quasits, and frankly I tend to dislike one of pair in those instances - for example, I tend to ignore Quasits. The only area where I can excuse it is the Balor/Pit Fiend, due to being the most powerful of each of their respective races before getting into unique fiends, they're bound to resemble each other somewhat, since they're supposed to be the quintessential uber-fiend of their type.)

Zevox

[The Minx]

I agree, having entered D&D during 3rd edition myself, that was always the impression I got of the two. Only alike in that they're female winged humanoid fiends. The similarities end there. And honestly, I feel that's best. It would be pretty redundant to have effectively identical fiends on each side of the Demon/Devil divide.

(Before anyone points it out, yes, I'm aware that there are a few who are such, like Imps and Quasits, and frankly I tend to dislike one of pair in those instances - for example, I tend to ignore Quasits. The only area where I can excuse it is the Balor/Pit Fiend, due to being the most powerful of each of their respective races before getting into unique fiends, they're bound to resemble each other somewhat, since they're supposed to be the quintessential uber-fiend of their type.)

Some repeats are inevitable since each faction needs to have fiends to do certain jobs.

Given that such repeats should be avoided: skipping repeats of fiends with identical roles like Imps/Quasits is one thing. But it's actually worse with the Succubi/Erinyes, since the designers seem to be saying their gender is their defining trait. How about combining the male demons and devils, since they are obviously all the same: fiends with male plumbing. Grrr. :smallmad:

I'll stop grousing now. :smallbiggrin:

[newcresty]

haley is totally not pregnant, obvious reasons

there has been more time since haley and elan separated from each other than daigo and kazumi met, so, haley and elan had sex way before daigo and kazumi

kazumi is pregant, and he already shows some simptons of pregnacy, as bigger uterus (not really the best word for it, but english is ot mi natal language and couldn't figure any better word >.<")

so, if haley were pregant, she should show more simptoms than kazumi does, and she doesn't.

[evileeyore]

kazumi is pregant, and he already shows some simptons of pregnacy, as bigger uterus (not really the best word for it, but english is ot mi natal language and couldn't figure any better word >.<")

Belly. Midsection. Tummy.

[Stupendous_Man]

Seriously, folks, I don't see why it isn't obvious that she's a succubus.
Double negatives are bad.


How is there even a question here?
The internets is serious business.

[whitelaughter]

For the time being, I shall call her an Erinyubus. How such a being could come into existence, is known only to the Great Deity who rules over all Deities- the GM. :smallbiggrin:

"crossbreeding Erinyes and Succubi"? Lesbian porn by any other name...

[Evil DM Mark3]

Double negatives are bad.

No they are not, badly worded ones that mean something other than intended are.
I don't see why it isn't obvious that she's a succubus is not the type of double negative that causes problems. The negatives are clear in their application.
Succubus, Male, No and the 100 yard stab.

[Mordokai]

"crossbreeding Erinyes and Succubi"? Lesbian porn by any other name...

I can see lot of interest for that particular kind of porn :smalltongue: Even if it may be a tad... violent :smallbiggrin:

Or perhaps just because of that.

[TheSummoner]

Rule 34.

Its out there, we just have to find it.

[Mordokai]

I'm so tempted to sig that :smallbiggrin:

[Shatteredtower]

But it's actually worse with the Succubi/Erinyes, since the designers seem to be saying their gender is their defining trait.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up, I'm afraid, but there are further unfortunate implications. After 1st Edition, for example, there's always been some mention of incubi, but the creature is still listed under the heading of succubus. The incubus sees less use because people are still more uncomfortable with the idea of a male demon that can use charm magic to seduce women -- for obvious reasons we can't get into on the forums. (Never mind that such demons can charm both sexes for such purposes and may have no qualms about doing so as either or both sexes at once. Can't go into depth on that here either. Never mind that male vampires are occasionally thrust into that role either.)

Then again, the existence of half-fiends indicates that succubi/incubi aren't the only demons that can breed with humanoids (or other creature types), and I doubt any of us believe that the non-demonic partner is usually a willing participant. To some, that's just another reason incubus never need to make an appearance, but those who think it through may wind up with some really disturbing images. (At least one third party rule source has pointed out that a creature of pure chaos and evil with the ability to breed with nearly any living creature, even one without gender, is probably more than capable of impregnating males as easily as females -- and it's probably all one and the same to a balor.)

It doesn't end there, though. Since second edition, the glabrezu and the succubus have been considered opposite sides of the same coin: both offering temptation, but the former offers it as power, the latter as passion.

Erinyes shouldn't be considered just another succubi any more than succubi and mariliths should. Okay, that's a bad example, as I've seen that done. I've yet to see the reverse, though, with a succubus playing the role of general or shock trooper. (Come to think of it, there are a pair of prestige classes that would be ideal for letting a mind-reading shapechanger play both quite effectively.)

Getting back on subject, however, I do like the fact that Sabine didn't run from combat with Roy the moment she took a scratch, the way she did against Haley. That goes against how the rulebooks suggest you run a succubus, and it's good to see that. While the Giant made the case (in War and XPs) that he thought such a creature would be likely relish combat, due in part to the advantage damage reduction offers them, Sabine appears to take it a step further, since Roy is perfectly capable of overcoming the damage reduction by painful numbers.

Succubus type rather than fury, sure, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Sabine is really...

-- a cross-dressing incubus. Talk about your evil opposites, eh, Haley?

:smallwink:

[hamishspence]

Given Succubi can shapechange, and the rules don't require they stay the same gender, its not too hard for them to be the "male" parent of half-fiends. Remember Sabine has been seen in male form on more than one occasion (dwarf, cop)

And, as I said, male erinyes do exist, at least 1 WOTC sourcebook has one.

[Shatteredtower]

Given Succubi can shapechange, and the rules don't require they stay the same gender, its not too hard for them to be the "male" parent of half-fiends.

Sure, but that's not the troubling thing. The troubling thing is that they're the only demonic species most people can think of as a possible "female" parent to a half-fiend.

[Flame of Anor]

"crossbreeding Erinyes and Succubi"? Lesbian porn by any other name...

OMG HAWT

:smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Pale Night is demonic and female, but given that one look at her kills you, might be a little difficult. Blindfold?

Her nickname is "Mother of Demons" and she is a formidable obyrith.

[Warlord JK]

Conclusion:

Sabine is a Succubus
Haley has 0 ranks in Knowledge (The Planes)

See the above quote for my answer to this grave conundrum.

The only controversy was with Haley, who cannot metagame like we do :smallbiggrin:.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I can see lot of interest for that particular kind of porn :smalltongue: Even if it may be a tad... violent :smallbiggrin:

Or perhaps just because of that.

That doesn't start until the strip where Sabine introduces Nale to her moms and the comic slowly transistions into stick-figure fetish pr0n, spawning the newest cultural phenomenon: stickies.

And for the record, I wouldn't be interested. My sig was originally going to say "girls kissing girls as part of loving, consensual, long-term relationships based on give and take is hot," but I ran out of room.

[Flame of Anor]

And for the record, I wouldn't be interested. My sig was originally going to say "girls kissing girls as part of loving, consensual, long-term relationships based on give and take is hot," but I ran out of room.

Suuuuuuuuure you wouldn't. :smalltongue:

[Jayngfet]

You're forgetting about one large detail.

Eyrnies have bird wings, Succubus have batwings.

[Amon Star]

Given Succubi can shapechange, and the rules don't require they stay the same gender, its not too hard for them to be the "male" parent of half-fiends. Remember Sabine has been seen in male form on more than one occasion (dwarf, cop)

And it's not like her and :nale: haven't tried... :smallwink: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html).

Regarding the discussion, it's clear the :sabine: is a Succubus, just not a D&D one. One thing that must be remembered is that the OotS cosmology is different from the Great Wheel, which means the Outsiders will be different too. Though there is some overlap, an Imps & Pit Fiend has made an appearance, they weren't identical to the standards either. For example, Qarr has multiple Charm Monsters, instead of a single Suggestion; and the Pit Fiend didn't use half the spell likes they get in the RAW. Basically, we can't use abilities to determine what :sabine: is.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Sure, but that's not the troubling thing. The troubling thing is that they're the only demonic species most people can think of as a possible "female" parent to a half-fiend.

Cause nobody wants to admit that their mother might possibly be something as hideous as bar-lurga, goristro, babau, Balor, Bebilith, dretch, glaberzu, hezrou, marilith, nalfeshnee, vrock, barbed devil, bearded devil, bone devil, chain devil, hell cat, horned devil, ice devil, imp, lemure, or pit fiend. :smallwink:

I mean really, can you imagine the 'your mama' jokes you'd get if you had some hideous stinky frog demon for a mother?

[Kish]

The only controversy was with Haley,
*cough* And Nale, Sabine's partner.

[Flame of Anor]

Regarding the discussion, it's clear the :sabine: is a Succubus, just not a D&D one. One thing that must be remembered is that the OotS cosmology is different from the Great Wheel, which means the Outsiders will be different too. Though there is some overlap, an Imps & Pit Fiend has made an appearance, they weren't identical to the standards either. For example, Qarr has multiple Charm Monsters, instead of a single Suggestion; and the Pit Fiend didn't use half the spell likes they get in the RAW. Basically, we can't use abilities to determine what :sabine: is.

Are we even sure it was a pit fiend? It's about ten times too big, after all...

[hamishspence]

problem is- no other fiends are that big and have wings.

[Amon Star]

Are we even sure it was a pit fiend? It's about ten times too big, after all...

That's a good point. See, assumptions are bad. It's possible that no fiends follow the standard model in the OotS verse, they just follow templates like Succubus, Imp or Big Winged Fiery Thing.

[Taekwondodo]

Seriously, folks, I don't see why it isn't obvious that she's a succubus.

How is there even a question here?

I didn't even know there was a question...

[hamishspence]

the only puzzling bit is that Haley and Nale don't know which- maybe neither are very well informed on the subject.

Sabine's "dark masters" don't look much like anything.

and speech text varies a lot- Jeff, one of Sabine's old friends, in Paladin Blues bonus strip, has yellow background, red text.

Sabine, and that black skinned multi-eyed fiend (Randy) that dropped her off, have plain text.

[The Minx]

Seriously, folks, I don't see why it isn't obvious that she's a succubus.

1: Succubi and erinyes are the two hellish types that appear as beautiful women.
2: Succubi can change shape; erinyes cannot. Sabine can.
3: Succubi are personifications of illicit sex; erinyes are not. Sabine is.
4: Succubi have DR/cold iron. Erinyes have DR/good. We know Sabine has either DR/cold iron or DR/silver.
5: Succubi have energy-draining ability; erinyes do not. Sabine does.
6: Succubi are Chaotic; erinyes are Lawful. Sabine acts Chaotically; admittedly this argument is not too strong.

How is there even a question here?

One more point, assuming we are going by the SRD (as if)...

Succubi have DR 10, while Erinyes have DR 5.

Haley shot several arrows into her with a +3 longbow. This deals 4-11 points of damage per shot, yet Sabine wasn't phased at all. Although Haley may have rolled only 1-2 on all her damage rolls, it suggests pretty strongly that Sabine has more than DR 5...

[Prime32]

One thing I'm surprised wasn't mentioned. Sabine is... working with Nale, who is Lawful Evil. LE devils and CE demons are constantly trying to kill each other, which would make it odd if she were a demon, even if the abilities fit better.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Yes, but a CE Halfling works with Roy, a LG Fighter...

[Greep]

Sure, but that's not the troubling thing. The troubling thing is that they're the only demonic species most people can think of as a possible "female" parent to a half-fiend.

I don't think anyone would end up fathering a child from demon who would try to kill them afterward unless they were really really really reaaaaaaaaally hot. Luckily females aren't subject to the following curse: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1363#comic

Or.. ugh.. This topic is pissing me off. I can't mention anything I want to say becaause it's NSFW

[hamishspence]

It's rare, but demons and devils sometimes work together in Faerun. the best example is alliance of House Dlardrageths demons, half demons, and fey'ri (elf equivalent of tieflings) with the exiled archdevil Malkizid, his devils and his yugoloths.

So, yes, given a good reason, these two foes, demons and devils, will work together

[RebelRogue]

One thing I'm surprised wasn't mentioned. Sabine is... working with Nale, who is Lawful Evil. LE devils and CE demons are constantly trying to kill each other, which would make it odd if she were a demon, even if the abilities fit better.
The "working with" part may be Sabine manipulating Nale into somehow doing whatever fits into her dark masters's plans. Succubi routinely manipulate Good characters, why not Evil characters as well?

[Avilan the Grey]

One thing I'm surprised wasn't mentioned. Sabine is... working with Nale, who is Lawful Evil. LE devils and CE demons are constantly trying to kill each other, which would make it odd if she were a demon, even if the abilities fit better.

It is my understanding that whoever her "masters" are are basically telling her to do it.


I don't think anyone would end up fathering a child from demon who would try to kill them afterward unless they were really really really reaaaaaaaaally hot.

Well the way I envision it fiendish offspring comes from two sources:

Sacrifice-rituals where the goal IS impregnation instead of death Soul-steal. Don't ask me why, but I am sure such a cult / ritual has something really nasty in mind and a long-term plot to take over the world.

Or the episode happens with a mortal partner that are tougher than normal for some reason and survives the planned end result.

[hewhosaysfish]

Given Succubi can shapechange, and the rules don't require they stay the same gender, its not too hard for them to be the "male" parent of half-fiends. Remember Sabine has been seen in male form on more than one occasion (dwarf, cop)

Really, what is the difference between a succubus and an incubus, anyway? Self image, maybe? Would that really apply with shapeshifters? Maybe, it's just a question of habit.



And, as I said, male erinyes do exist, at least 1 WOTC sourcebook has one.

Not just some obscure splatbook either but the actual Monster fricking Manual.


Unlike other devils, erinyes apear attractive to humans, resembling very comely women or men.
Emphasis mine.

But because the illustration is of a female, everyone assumes that they must all be female.

[Scarlet Knight]

I don't think anyone would end up fathering a child from demon who would try to kill them afterward unless they were really really really reaaaaaaaaally hot.

Lots of novels have women servicing demons & devils in exchange for power or somesuch boon. And Luis Rojo has made a fortune with illustrations of such couples...:smallwink:

[Flame of Anor]

Sacrifice-rituals where the goal IS impregnation instead of death Soul-steal. Don't ask me why, but I am sure such a cult / ritual has something really nasty in mind and a long-term plot to take over the world.

See R.A. Salvatore's Homeland, in which the best student of the graduating class from Menzoberranzan's Academy gets the dubious privilege of being impregnated by a summoned demon.

[David Argall]

One thing I'm surprised wasn't mentioned. Sabine is... working with Nale, who is Lawful Evil.

Sabine talks of Nale as having potential, which can mean potential to change to CE. So she may be working to convert him.

[Assassin89]

Sabine talks of Nale as having potential, which can mean potential to change to CE. So she may be working to convert him.

I though it was evil potential. Meaning that Sabine could be acting to spread evil deeds regardless of intent.

[hamishspence]

would be funny if Rich had found, or homebrewed, a yugoloth seducer fiend race- with DR Cold-iron Or Silver- and we've been on the wrong track.

Or, a bit cheesy, depending on your views. Maybe Sabine's Fiendish Overlords are NE- yugoloth equivalents?

[spectralphoenix]

It's also possible that the whole Blood War doesn't exist in OotS cosmology.

[Amon Star]

It's also possible that the whole Blood War doesn't exist in OotS cosmology.

And even if it did, it doesn't apply to mortals anyway. Yes, :nale: may be lawful, but that doesn't mean his actions benefit the forces of Law. In fact, the amount of Chaos and Destruction he causes is certainly a Demonic thing.