Joining a game as a 5th Wheel - Thinking Duskblade

[RMS Oceanic]

My brother's in a game as a Cleric (of Nerull), along with a Monk, a Wizard and a Rogue, and he's wondering if I want to play. I was thinking of trying out the "gish" role and trying a Duskblade. They're currently at level 15, so I'm wondering how to build it. Should I stock up on metamagic feats or combat feats? Should I take (de)buff spells, or direct damage spells? What magic items should I invest in?

Ability score priority: Int > Con > Str > Dex > Wis > Cha

[Stupendous_Man]

Figure out what role your Monk is taking up and build yourself to take it over.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, the party makeup does seem to be lacking a nice solid tank (unless the Cleric does double-duty) - you've got the Cleric, the Wizard, and the Rogue; Duskblade's a decent decision. At 15th, though, be warned: Other than Tome of Battle builds, or fairly boring Ubercharges (who pretty much have to do the exact same thing every single time), you're liable to be left in the dust as a melee-centric character (unless the casters like direct-damage effects or some such).

[chiasaur11]

Of course, the monk's standard role is 5th wheel.

[AslanCross]

Duskblade is a pretty good damage dealer. Definitely a good idea.

[Keld Denar]

Arcane Stike is a solid feat. You have enough spell slots you can afford to blow a few. Even if its just 1st or 2nd level spells, its still a nice benefit.

Power Attack goes without saying.

Metamagic typically isn't that great for a Duskblade. You don't really have the higher level spell slots to spend on a lot of metamagic. Plus, as a spontaneous caster, you take a full round to apply metamagic to spells. I'm not sure how this applies to Arcane Channeling, but I could see lots of abuse with a Full Attack Channeled Empowered Vampiric Touch with Arcane Strike, Power Attack, and possibly a spell stored in a Bloodstone enchanted weapon (spell storing only for VT, but autoempowers it).

ZEE TEMP HP, ZEH ARE HUGE!

[RMS Oceanic]

So, feats:
Power Attack
Arcane Strike

Spells
Vampiric Touch
Shocking Grasp
Scorching Ray
Doom Scarabs
Energy Surge
Toxic Weapon

And I assume I should use a two-handed weapon like the Greatsword.

Any other feats I should get? I was thinking of Improved Buckler Defense. For 5th level spells, should we get that far, I was thinking of Disintegrate and Sonic Shield first.

[Ryuuk]

If you're a 15th level Duskblade, you should really consider a reach weapon over a greatsword. you can channel touch spells through a full attack, but the spell will only hit once per target. Increase your threatened area and you'll be able to land the spell 2-3 times on different enemies by just blowing 1 slot.

[RMS Oceanic]

That's a good point. Should I take Short Haft with those fries?

[Keld Denar]

And I assume I should use a two-handed weapon like the Greatsword.

Glaive IMO. Reach is good at higher levels when everything is at least large size. It'll help you avoid some AoOs. If things get too close, you can almost always 5' step back or to the side and still whack away. Only loses ~1 damage per hit on average compared to a Greatsword. Greatswortd would also be a good choice.


Any other feats I should get? I was thinking of Improved Buckler Defense. For 5th level spells, should we get that far, I was thinking of Disintegrate and Sonic Shield first.

Um....yea, Disintegrate would be ok. Its decent utility, and you could throw out a TON of dice if you managed to hit 3-4 foes with a full attack channel and they all failed their saves.

I know Whirling Blade got added to the Hexblade spell list on some sidebar of a book (PHBII?), but did it get added to the Duskblade spell list as well? If so, thats a solid spell choice, since it scales remarkably well for a 2nd level spell (you PA with it!).

You might consider Arcane Disciple for the Slimesomething domain. It gives you access to the druid spell Poison. Load that puppy into your Spell Storing weapon and then channel it through your attack. Nothing says luvin like 2d10 CON damage in a given encounter!

Also, don't forget about Enervation. Thats a solid choice for a Duskblade.


That's a good point. Should I take Short Haft with those fries?

NO. Short Haft is a miserable feat. If you are gonna spend a whole feat on something like that, get EWP for a Spiked Chain. That way you threaten close and far all the time, and don't burn up swift actions you should be otherwise using with your Duskblade Swiftcast feature.

Or just forget about it and take a step forward, backward, or sideways as needed to hit all your foes. MOST of the time you won't have a problem.

[RMS Oceanic]

Wow, I missed they got Ennervate. *chucks it in*

I'm not quite sure about something: when they say channel a "touch" spell, does that include "ranged touch" as well?

[AslanCross]

Wow, I missed they got Ennervate. *chucks it in*

I'm not quite sure about something: when they say channel a "touch" spell, does that include "ranged touch" as well?

Nope. Although an old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-31894.html) says that the Enlightened Fist PrC gives the ability to hold a ray.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make the character a Dwarf, and get Battle Caster to wear Adamantine Full Plate. For feats I'd get Power Attack (1), Combat Casting (2), Battle Caster (3), Arcane Strike (6), Leap Attack (9), Heavy Armor Optimization (12), and Greater Heavy Armor Optimization (15). For your ability scores, I'd focus on Str > Con > Int, with Dex 12 and both Wis and Cha as dump stats. Don't worry about your saving throw DCs, you have too few spells that allow a save anyway. Your Int needs to be at least 15 after Enhancement bonuses to cast your highest level spells, at least 20 to get a 5th level bonus spell. That means Int 14 is all you'll need, ideally with a Headband +6 by level 17. With both Wis and Cha as dump stats and Dex no higher than 12 your Str and Con should be up there, and put all your level-up points into Str.

At level 15 you should know 16 spells, not counting 0-level spells. You've got 5 up to 1st level, 4 up to 2nd level, 4 up to 3rd level, and 3 up to 4th level. I'd get the following spells:
1st: True Strike, Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Stand
2nd: Scorching Ray, Spider Climb, Swift Fly, Swift Invisibility
3rd: Vampiric Touch, Protection from Energy, Greater Magic Weapon, Doom Scarabs
4th: Dimension Door, Enervation, Toxic Weapon

If it's standard WBL you'll have 200,000 gp to spend:
Lesser Rod of Extend (3000)
Lesser Rod of Maximize (14000)
+1 Spell Storing Dwarven Waraxe (8330)
+1 Animated Heavy Steel Shield (9170)
Adamantine Full Plate (16500)
Gemstone of Heavy Fortification (DCN) (35000)
...NPC Spellcasting: Limited Wish to embed the gemstone (2410)
Gloves of the Starry Sky (1100)
Goggles of the Golden Sun (4000)
Periapt of the Sullen Sea (6000)
Belt of Strength +6 (36000) plus Belt of the Wide Earth properties (12000)
Armbands of Might (4100)
Ring of Arcane Might (CA) (20000) plus Sustenance (3750)
Headband of Intellect +4 (16000)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4000)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000)
Vest of Natural Armor +1 (2000)
640 gp remaining

Note that spontaneously cast spells that don't have a casting time of a standard action or longer don't take any longer to cast with metamagic, so your Swift spells with the Lesser Rod of Extend will last two rounds without taking longer to cast. You'll need to switch to wielding the Waraxe one-handed to cast any spells with a somatic component. You can put a Maximized Vampiric Touch into it to be used when you need a bit of healing but want to keep attacking. Trade the Cleric a Magic Vestment for a Greater Magic Weapon every day, possibly using a Lesser Rod of Extend on each. The Gemstone of Heavy Fortification (DCN) will need to be embedded via Limited Wish, but then it can never be removed or sundered, spells like MDJ won't even have LoE to it, and it's actually cheaper than putting Fortification on a suit of armor. The Raiment of the Four set from MIC is included because it is extremely handy to have. Remember that the damage bonus for Power Attacking from the Armbands of Might is also increased by Leap Attack.

This is basically a melee tank/dps, with quite a bit of useful spellcasting ability. You can use a Quick Cast True Strike with Arcane Strike and Charge/Power Attack/Leap Attack to kill almost anything in one hit. The rest of your party should absolutely love you for your +4 Greater Magic Weapon. I'd work on upgrading the Ring/Vest first to improve your AC, and by level 18 get an Orange Prism Ioun Stone, or have its properties added to your Ring of Arcane Might for (30,000/2 for taking an item space, x1.5 for being added to another item) 22,500 gp so your Greater Magic Weapon will be +5. Maybe consider starting with a Wand of Faith Healing (SC) with half the charges remaining and say your character worships Nerull so the Cleric can use it on you.

This should be a decently powerful character, and definitely a good addition to any party.

[Hal]

Lots of good advice here so far. I'll throw in some other hints.

Weapon Enhancements

Whirling. It's a +1 enhancement, and gives you Whirlwind Attack 3/day. This'll give you some great control.

Other Equipment

Rings of Wizardry. Grabbing more spell slots to burn on Arcane Strike can really help you out.

Bracers of the Entangling Blast. Giving touch spells the chance to entangle the target? Good good good.

Wand chambers. It's another way to get some spells to cast in combat without having to drop your weapon.

Feats

Arcane Disciple. This is the best way to expand your spell list if you really want other options. You'll have to talk to your DM about whether the text will let you get 9th level spells or max you out at 5th.

Versatile Spellcasting. This really helps you get the most out of your lower level spell slots.

Knockdown. You get a free trip attempt if you do 10 or more damage in a single attack. Easily done when you're channeling spells, and it becomes ugly if you decide to take Improved Trip.

Obtain Familiar. You may or may not find this useful, but they can hold touch spells for you, and guess what makes up most of your spell list?

Knowledge devotion. You get all knowledge skills as class skills. This will give you bang for your buck.

Other than that, you can always check the handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=837888) for more advice.

[RMS Oceanic]

Okay, so I'm thinking:

Feats
Power Attack
Arcane Strike
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Improved Trip
Knowledge Devotion
Knockdown

Spells
Vampiric Touch
Shocking Grasp
Scorching Ray
Doom Scarabs
Energy Surge
Toxic Weapon
Enervate
Dispel Magic
Dimension Door
Chilling Touch
Touch of Idiocy

Equipment/Magic Items (Apart from the stat boosters, they're obvious)
+X Mithral Fullplate
+X Animated Heavy Shield
+X Whirlwind Guisarme (Or whichever one is designed for tripping, I can't remember)
Ring of Wizardry I
Lesser Rods of Extend/Empower/Maximize

What's DCN? I don't know what the Gemstone of Fortification does.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Draconomicon, I'll start using (Dr) instead, that's what WotC's feat/PrC lists use for it. The gemstones give Fortification just like the armor property but without taking an item spot or making your armor more expensive. A Gemstone of Heavy Fortification is 35,000 gp, +1 armor costs 1,000 gp, +1 Heavy Fortification armor costs 36,000 gp, so if you've got +2 or better armor you're better off with the gemstone.

Be sure to have armor spikes so you'll still threaten adjacent squares while wielding your reach weapon. Too bad Duskblade doesn't get Enlarge Person. Get the armor spikes +1 Defending, and cast Greater Magic Weapon on them every day to get a nice AC boost. With a Ring of Arcane Might from Complete Arcane you'll have a caster level of 16, so your Greater Magic Weapon will be +4 instead of +3, which will be a superb boost for yourself and your party members.

Be sure to get all the spells known that you're entitled to. A Duskblade 15 knows 16 1st+ level spells: two 1st at level 1, +1 spell known per class level gained. Get spells that make your character more versatile and helpful to the party. I already mentioned Greater Magic Weapon; Protection from Energy is great to have when you need it, such as getting dropped in acid/lava or suddenly encountering opponents who use potent energy attacks. Swift spells are good for maneuvering around the battlefield (Swift Fly, Expeditious Retreat) and helping yourself and your allies (Stand). Plus you want to be able to reach pesky opponents who like to avoid melee, get places without making Climb checks, and get out of pit traps (Swift Fly, Spider Climb). You don't want to find yourself in a situation where you're wishing you had a more versatile list of spells, rather than only picking the ones that can hurt your opponents. Also, I wouldn't bother getting Dispel Magic at this level, you'll be rolling 1d20+10 vs a typical DC of 26, and there are two other characters who should be able to cast Greater Dispel Magic anyway.

[Hal]

Okay, so I'm thinking:

Feats
Power Attack
Arcane Strike
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Improved Trip
Knowledge Devotion
Knockdown

Spells
Vampiric Touch
Shocking Grasp
Scorching Ray
Doom Scarabs
Energy Surge
Toxic Weapon
Enervate
Dispel Magic
Dimension Door
Chilling Touch
Touch of Idiocy

Equipment/Magic Items (Apart from the stat boosters, they're obvious)
+X Mithral Fullplate
+X Animated Heavy Shield
+X Whirlwind Guisarme (Or whichever one is designed for tripping, I can't remember)
Ring of Wizardry I
Lesser Rods of Extend/Empower/Maximize

What's DCN? I don't know what the Gemstone of Fortification does.

If you can fit it in there, Dimension Hop is a good spell. You can channel it (and make your enemies poof around) or you can cast it on yourself or other party members (for battlefield maneuverability). And tell me True Strike is going to be on your list. It's practically a given.

[Eldariel]

Definitely Dimension Hop, it's the one reason Duskblade isn't just Yet Another Fighter. Also, I'd go entering Abjurant Champion on level 14 (so your build would be Duskblade 13/Abjurant Champion 2). You get Combat Casting as a bonus feat, so you need no expediture to enter it, and Duskblade doesn't really get class features past level 13 so taking a class with full casting and BAB that does is definitely worth it (and you can use stuff like Greater Luminous Armor [Book of Exalted Deeds] in addition to Deflection to get some mileage out of the Abjurant Armor-ability).

[Hal]

Definitely Dimension Hop, it's the one reason Duskblade isn't just Yet Another Fighter. Also, I'd go entering Abjurant Champion on level 14 (so your build would be Duskblade 13/Abjurant Champion 2). You get Combat Casting as a bonus feat, so you need no expediture to enter it, and Duskblade doesn't really get class features past level 13 so taking a class with full casting and BAB that does is definitely worth it (and you can use stuff like Greater Luminous Armor [Book of Exalted Deeds] in addition to Deflection to get some mileage out of the Abjurant Armor-ability).

Well, Duskblades do get more uses of their Quick cast. It's not much, but it's one of the abilities that really let Duskblades shine amongst casters.

[Eldariel]

Well, Duskblades do get more uses of their Quick cast. It's not much, but it's one of the abilities that really let Duskblades shine amongst casters.

It merely makes up for the fact that they don't have the spell levels to cast anything with the metamagic Quicken Spell. Abjurant Champion also gets to Quicken all his Abjuration-spells of level 3 or lower, so hey, you don't lose that much.

[Epinephrine]

Rings of Wizardry. Grabbing more spell slots to burn on Arcane Strike can really help you out.
...
Versatile Spellcasting. This really helps you get the most out of your lower level spell slots.


This. You get tons of spell slots, so you get tons more with a ring of wizardry. And then you can burn them on Arcane Strikes, or use them to power higher level spells.

[Curmudgeon]

Make sure you can handle those close-quarters threats. Armor spikes will do the job, but you can also buy a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) for 10,000 gp. This item grants:
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike)
1 point of CON damage on a critical unarmed strike
That sets you up to take Snap Kick (Tome of Battle), which gives you an extra unarmed attack whenever you make
a full attack with at least one melee attack
a standard action melee attack
an attack of opportunity
a bonus attack, such as from Improved Trip
So beat your enemy with your glaive, trip them, get a bonus attack and hit them again, then Snap Kick to add insult to injury. When they get up and provoke an AoO, hit them twice again thanks to Snap Kick.

Can you use Arcane Channeling to charge your weapon, and then cast another touch spell to charge your self? I don't know, but it would be nifty to beat down your enemies and hit them with two different spells all in the same attack.

[Flashlight]

If you want, fit in Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar. Duskblades have good HP and BAB, so if you can get a familiar with Polymorph, like the Imp, you can have a great flanking partner and mount.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Can you use Arcane Channeling to charge your weapon, and then cast another touch spell to charge your self? I don't know, but it would be nifty to beat down your enemies and hit them with two different spells all in the same attack.You can if you Quicken the touch spell. Unfortunately, as a Spontaneous Caster, you need the Rapid Metamagic feat to do that (or just use your Quick-cast feature).

Just bear in mind you're somewhat of a glass cannon, albeit less so that the Monk, until you load up on Temp HP with Vampiric Touch. That should be your priority at the start on any long combat (preferably maximized and/or empowered).

[Keld Denar]

Can you use Arcane Channeling to charge your weapon, and then cast another touch spell to charge your self? I don't know, but it would be nifty to beat down your enemies and hit them with two different spells all in the same attack.

Um, I don't think so, and here's why. Read up on touch spells. You can hold the charge INDEFINITELY until one of the named conditions are met. One of those conditions is casting another spell. Arcane Channeling is a form of casting that takes place at the same time as the weapon swing and uses the weapon to deliver the touch. So, if you cast a Shocking Grasp and hold the charge on your fist and then tried to Arcane Channel another Shocking Grasp through your fist to deliver both at once, the first Shocking Grasp would be lost as you cast and swing the 2nd one.

[Paul H]

Hi

Not so sure this is a 'Gish', but certainly is a spellcasting Tank.

Try Druid 13/Master Many Forms 2 Just pick a 15 HD Giant & play that.

Or just play a Shambling Mound with about 40+Con casting spells.

Then remember to use the Spell Compendium & Complete Mage to really buff you up..........:smallbiggrin:

Cheers
Paul H

[Gardakan]

Take a look at a spiked chain to channel into your spells to deliver it after...

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm not sure if this sort of Necromancy is appropriate, but I figured since I had already made a thread about the Duskblade topic, it would make sense to keep it in here.

The level 15 thing fell through, so my brother started a new level 1 game, that has levelled up to 2 now, and he's offering a slight rebuild to everyone if they weren't happy with some aspects of their character, as well as new level 2 features. The party is evil, and consists of:
- Half-Orc Barbarian
- Human Sorceror
- Human Rogue
- Aasimar Cleric (Light is not good, indeed!)
- And me, the human Duskblade

As a result of the story, my only equipment right now is a greatsword and a chain shirt, as well as provisions. The campaign is intended to remain entirely within a ginormous city state. My current selections:

STR 18
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 18
WIS 12
CHA 11

Feats: Power Attack, Versatile Spellcaster

Skills: Maxed in Sense Motive, Knowledge Arcana, Nature and The Planes, Concentration and a couple in Jump, Climb, Swim and Knowledge Local (In a city, a bonus in damage against humanoids sounds like a good idea).

0th Spells: All of them
1st: Color Spray and Shocking Grasp

For this rebuild, I was thinking of "cheating" and swapping out Versatile Spellcaster for Knowledge Devotion. I may or may not swap Sense Motive for Knowledge Religion. For spells I was going to either grab Chill Touch or Ray of Enfeeblement, and at 5th level I'm swapping Color Spray for True Strike. Any thoughts?

[mikej]

I like taking Knowledge Devotion early, should be golden after you take Arcane Strike ( i'd rather have it over Versatile Spellcaster ) feat and gain Vampiric Touch.

Edit: self-necromancy of old thread, never seen that before.