The Commoner Challenge!

[Fostire]

Talking with a friend about another friend's awful builds I jokingly mentioned that I could probably beat any of his characters with a commoner.
Later I started thinking if it was possible to make a strong or at least decent commoner build, and because I'm lazy I wanted to see what the playground can come up with I decided to make this challenge.

It's simple: Make a character build using the commoner class as the only base class. You can use any prestige classes, items, spells, etc. from any official WotC material (including dragon magazines). Try to avoid infinite loops.

This is just for fun, there are no prizes.

Have fun :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

Commoner 10/Ur-Priest 10? It's definitely stretching the limit of the rules, and trampling all over the spirit of the challenge, but legal.

Heck, since you've got Commoner there anyways, add Chicken-Infested and pump your caster level into the thousands with Greater Consumptive Field...

[Keld Denar]

What level? I'm just trying to figure out how quickly I can get a commoner to qualify for Ur-Priest! :P

Edit: Gah, Glyphstone ninja!

Yea, I was thinking Chicken Infested, Corpsecrafter, and Destructive Retribution myself for my Ur-Commoner. Blow your ENTIRE WBL on Onyx and raise thousands of 1/4 HD chicken skeletons that detinate on impact.

BOCK BOCK BOOM!

[Yukitsu]

In the fighter threads on Gleemax, to show that fighters don't have good archery skills, their equipment has good archery skills, we simply put good bows etc on a commoner. By the end of things, the commoner was one shotting baalors with a bow in one round.

[Fostire]

Commoner 10/Ur-Priest 10? It's definitely stretching the limit of the rules, and trampling all over the spirit of the challenge, but legal.

Heck, since you've got Commoner there anyways, add Chicken-Infested and pump your caster level into the thousands with Greater Consumptive Field...

How do you get the Ur-Priest skill requirements before level 13? You need 8 ranks in spellcraft and knowledge(religion) which are both cross-class

Also greater consumptive field is limited to 1.5 your caster level


What level? I'm just trying to figure out how quickly I can get a commoner to qualify for Ur-Priest! :P

All 20 levels

[TheCountAlucard]

It's simple: Make a character build using the commoner class as the only base class. You can use any prestige classes, items, spells, etc. from any official WotC material (including dragon magazines). Try to avoid infinite loops.

This is just for fun, there are no prizes.

Have fun :smallbiggrin:

Simple. He can take Survivor at first level.

[Keld Denar]

Apprentice? feat to get Spellcraft, and Knowledge Devotion (qualify with Know:Local) for Knowledge Religion. That makes them both class skills regardless, so he should be able to qualify by 11 at the latest. Chicken Infested is a flaw (best flaw ever) so that gives you a bonus feat to burn on either of those feats.

[The Glyphstone]

Easier, the Flexible Mind feat from Dragon at 3rd level, after taking 1 rank in Spellcraft and Knowledge: Religion at 1st level. They both become class skills, and can progress as normal. If you have trouble making the Save requirements for Ur-Priest, dip Survivor.


EDIT: And the GConsumptive Field loop, from what I remember, works by using it until you've maxed out to 1.5 your original CL, then casting a New GConsumptive Field at the inflated CL and repeating the process - as identical overlapping spells, the one with the higher CL takes precedence.

[Kurald Galain]

Talking with a friend about another friend's awful builds I jokingly mentioned that I could probably beat any of his characters with a commoner.

Oh, you can easily make a commoner that's as effective as a monk... :smallbiggrin:

[Tengu_temp]

Oh, you can easily make a commoner that's as effective as a monk... :smallbiggrin:

After all, commoners can buy wands with partial charges as well as monks.

[mabriss lethe]

at low levels, as some unfortunate players of mine discovered, a commoner with death devotion and a long spear is a relatively nasty customer. tag on the bind vestige feats for some added options. progress from there. Shoot for Anima mage maybe? It's worded a bit oddly, but I *think* Bind vestige and Improved BV qualify you for that part of Anima mage. (since it desn't specify the soul binding class feature in the requirments, just the ability to bind a 2nd level vestige. You'd just have to pick up a PrC somewhere that would grant access to 2nd level arcane spells (I'm sure there's one somewhere.)

[newbDM]

Commoner 10/Ur-Priest 10? It's definitely stretching the limit of the rules, and trampling all over the spirit of the challenge, but legal.

Heck, since you've got Commoner there anyways, add Chicken-Infested and pump your caster level into the thousands with Greater Consumptive Field...

Chicken-Infested?!

Anyway, I often take a level of Expert with my psions for the skills and ranks.

[The Glyphstone]

A "flaw" from Dragon Magazine, requires at least 1 level of commoner. With Chicken Infested, whenever you would pull a weapon or object out of a container or compartment, you instead have a 50% chance to retrieve a live chicken. Where the chickens come from is your problem (it actually says this in the flaw description).

Best. Flaw. Ever.

Combined with Quickdraw and a spell component pouch, you can create an arbitrarily large number of chickens in one round via drawing darts (a weapon) out of your pouch (which holds an infinite number of them, as they are a free component for Acid Arrow).

[Fostire]

A "flaw" from Dragon Magazine, requires at least 1 level of commoner. With Chicken Infested, whenever you would pull a weapon or object out of a container or compartment, you instead have a 50% chance to retrieve a live chicken. Where the chickens come from is your problem (it actually says this in the flaw description).

Best. Flaw. Ever.

Combined with Quickdraw and a spell component pouch, you can create an arbitrarily large number of chickens in one round via drawing darts (a weapon) out of your pouch (which holds an infinite number of them, as they are a free component for Acid Arrow).

As awesome as infinite loops are, please try to avoid them.


at low levels, as some unfortunate players of mine discovered, a commoner with death devotion and a long spear is a relatively nasty customer. tag on the bind vestige feats for some added options. progress from there. Shoot for Anima mage maybe? It's worded a bit oddly, but I *think* Bind vestige and Improved BV qualify you for that part of Anima mage. (since it desn't specify the soul binding class feature in the requirments, just the ability to bind a 2nd level vestige. You'd just have to pick up a PrC somewhere that would grant access to 2nd level arcane spells (I'm sure there's one somewhere.)

I'm not familiar with death devotion, is it a feat?, what does it do?

[newbDM]

A "flaw" from Dragon Magazine, requires at least 1 level of commoner. With Chicken Infested, whenever you would pull a weapon or object out of a container or compartment, you instead have a 50% chance to retrieve a live chicken. Where the chickens come from is your problem (it actually says this in the flaw description).

Best. Flaw. Ever.

Combined with Quickdraw and a spell component pouch, you can create an arbitrarily large number of chickens in one round via drawing darts (a weapon) out of your pouch (which holds an infinite number of them, as they are a free component for Acid Arrow).

Oh, please, tell me which dragon issue!



I'm not familiar with death devotion, is it a feat?, what does it do?

Want to know as well.

[JeminiZero]

How about the Paragon PrCs? Human Paragon can pick up a bunch of skills as class skills, and humans can get able learner, letting a human commoner/paragon quickly qualify in terms of skills for PrCs. Paragon also gets stat boost and bonus feat, and increases caster level.

Something like 4 commoner / 1 Human Paragon / 10 Ur Priest / 2 Paragon and practiced caster gives you a level 16 caster with level 9 spells by level 17.

[Fostire]

How about the Paragon PrCs? Human Paragon can pick up a bunch of skills as class skills, and humans can get able learner, letting a human commoner/paragon quickly qualify in terms of skills for PrCs. Paragon also gets stat boost and bonus feat, and increases caster level.

Something like 4 commoner / 1 Human Paragon / 10 Ur Priest / 2 Paragon and practiced caster gives you a level 16 caster with level 9 spells by level 17.

That could work for the skill point requirement, but does it get the +3 in will and fortitude required for ur priest?

[Douglas]

EDIT: And the GConsumptive Field loop, from what I remember, works by using it until you've maxed out to 1.5 your original CL, then casting a New GConsumptive Field at the inflated CL and repeating the process - as identical overlapping spells, the one with the higher CL takes precedence.
Even with that, you cannot more than double your caster level. If your normal caster level is N, once you boost it to 2N the bonus from recasting GCF and powering it up is 2N/2 = N. As this does not stack with the previous castings, this gives you a caster level of N + N = 2N - right where you started. In practice, I think it will always cap at 2N - 1 due to D&D always rounding down.

[JeminiZero]

That could work for the skill point requirement, but does it get the +3 in will and fortitude required for ur priest?

Lets see, human paragon has high will save, so it will meet the will save, but not the fort save requirement.

Hmm... you might splash a low requirement/high fort save PrC to get it going. Can't think of any off hand besides Horizon Walker. Maybe survivor?

[Captain Six]

Incarnum feats let you snag some of their abilities, psionic feats are nice too. But it was said above magic items are often more powerful than the PCs themselves. I remember my level eight warlock was significantly challenged by a level four commoner in a tournament fight. He had the robe of the archmagi and staff of the magi.

Or you could be really cheap and be a level one commoner with the Paragon template from epic level handbook.

[Kurald Galain]

As awesome as infinite loops are, please try to avoid them.

What's the matter, McFly? Chicken?

[RTGoodman]

Survivor has all good saves, as far as I remember. How about Commoner 1/Human Paragon 1/Survivor 2/Ur-Priest 10/Human Paragon 2/Heirophant 4 (for CL bumps from both Human Paragon and Heirophant, which advances CL even though it doesn't progress actual spellcasting)?

EDIT: Hmm, still needs to meet skill pre-reqs. I'll have to work on that...

[Keld Denar]

Hmmm, Commoner1/Survivor2/HumanParagon1/Urpriest2/SeulArcanamach1/MysticTheurge10/Heirphant2

9th level divine casting, 5th level arcane casting, and Chicken Infested.

RAWR!

[Fostire]

What's the matter, McFly? Chicken?

Nobody calls me chicken.

But seriously, it's because I would like a build that you could get past a DM.

[Keld Denar]

Oh snap, you could put Fel Animating on a Greater Consumptive Field, right? 16 times your caster level in chicken zombies without having to pay a penny. Then, blow em all up and reap the Destructive Retribution!

[RTGoodman]

Alright, here's a build. I'm gonna go with a Human Commoner with 12 Int, which I think is reasonable, to try to meet the skill requirements. Satisfied pre-reqs are crossed out.

Commoner 1 (16 skill points); Able Learner, Spell Focus (Evil)
-Ranks: Religion 2, Spellcraft 2, Bluff 1 , Arcana 2 , Planes 1
-Saves: +0/+0/+0

Cmn 1/Survivor 1 (3 skill points)
-Ranks: Religion 2, Spellcraft 2, Bluff 1, Arcana 2, Planes 2; 1 extra point somewhere
-Saves: +2/+2/+2

Cmn 1/Srv 1/Paragon 1 (6 skill points, all necessary skills are class skills); Iron Will
-Ranks: Religion 4, Spellcraft 4, Bluff 3, Arcana 2, Planes 2
-Saves: +2/+2/+4

Cmn 1/Srv 1/Paragon 2 ([6+5= 11] skill points); Open Minded
-Ranks: Religion 7, Spellcraft 7, Bluff 4, Arcana 5, Planes 3
-Saves: +2/+2/+5

Cmn 1/Srv 1/Paragon 3 (6 skill points)
-Ranks: Religion 8, Spellcraft 8, Bluff 6, Arcana 5, Planes 5
-Saves: +3/+3/+5

~~~~~~

That should cover everything from the entry requirements. Then just add on your 10 levels of Ur-Priest and then Heirophant or any other full-casting PrC you'd like. Final build is something like Commoner 1/Survivor 1/Human Paragon 3/Ur-Priest 10/Full-Casting PrC 5.

[Fostire]

Alright, here's a build. I'm gonna go with a Human Commoner with 12 Int, which I think is reasonable, to try to meet the skill requirements. Satisfied pre-reqs are crossed out.

Commoner 1 (16 skill points); Able Learner, Spell Focus (Evil)
-Ranks: Religion 2, Spellcraft 2, Bluff 1 , Arcana 2 , Planes 1
-Saves: +0/+0/+0

Cmn 1/Survivor 1 (3 skill points)
-Ranks: Religion 2, Spellcraft 2, Bluff 1, Arcana 2, Planes 2; 1 extra point somewhere
-Saves: +2/+2/+2

Cmn 1/Srv 1/Paragon 1 (6 skill points, all necessary skills are class skills); Iron Will
-Ranks: Religion 4, Spellcraft 4, Bluff 3, Arcana 2, Planes 2
-Saves: +2/+2/+4

Cmn 1/Srv 1/Paragon 2 ([6+5= 11] skill points); Open Minded
-Ranks: Religion 7, Spellcraft 7, Bluff 4, Arcana 5, Planes 3
-Saves: +2/+2/+5

Cmn 1/Srv 1/Paragon 3 (6 skill points)
-Ranks: Religion 8, Spellcraft 8, Bluff 6, Arcana 5, Planes 5
-Saves: +3/+3/+5

~~~~~~

That should cover everything from the entry requirements. Then just add on your 10 levels of Ur-Priest and then Heirophant or any other full-casting PrC you'd like. Final build is something like Commoner 1/Survivor 1/Human Paragon 3/Ur-Priest 10/Full-Casting PrC 5.

Awesome :smallbiggrin:

What book is open minded from?

[Ravens_cry]

This is all turning out like half rabbit soup with horse IIHO. One rabbit ,and one horse, a bit strong on the horse though.
Not to mention cheese.:smallbiggrin:

[JeminiZero]

Awesome :smallbiggrin:

What book is open minded from?


Its Complete Psionics I believe. also available on some SRDs (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Open_Minded). Its only for the skill ranks, you don't need it if say you can get 14 Int.

Edit: Actualy if you want to spend a feat for skills, consider Nymph's kiss which grants 1 skill rank per level (but not 4x at level 1). Grab that at level 1, and then swap Spell Focus Evil to level 6.

[The Minx]

In the fighter threads on Gleemax, to show that fighters don't have good archery skills, their equipment has good archery skills, we simply put good bows etc on a commoner. By the end of things, the commoner was one shotting baalors with a bow in one round.

Hee hee, I would like to see that. :smallsmile: Do you have a link?

[RTGoodman]

Its Complete Psionics I believe. also available on some SRDs (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Open_Minded).

It's also in Complete Adventurer, I think. If you can use another way to get more skill points (higher Int, etc.), then you don't have to worry about it.


Its only for the skill ranks, you don't need it if say you can get 14 Int.

Edit: Actualy if you want to spend a feat for skills, consider Nymph's kiss which grants 1 skill rank per level (but not 4x at level 1). Grab that at level 1, and then swap Spell Focus Evil to level 6.

Yeah, a 14 Int could work out better and free up your feat, but I assume if you're building towards Ur-Priest you're looking for Wis above all, alongside probably Dex (for AC) and maybe Cha (for rebuking), and depending on point-buy you might not get a high Wis if you prioritize differently.

Nymph's Kiss won't work, though, I don't think - AFB I think it's probably an [Exalted] feat and I doubt you can maintain an Exalted alignment while also taking levels in a PrC that requires you to be Evil (or, at least, non-Good). If Nymph's Kiss isn't Good only, then it could work.

[Yukitsu]

I could find it in like a month of archive diving.

The gist of it is, you get a commoner with haste, rapid shot, a splitting, mage bane, +5 composite longbow, with bracers of archery, dex boosts, strength boosts, and bane arrows, he had an attack roll of 9+10+1+2+1+11 for +35 to hit. (more, because we bought spell service polymorph any object) for an attack routine of 35/35/35/35/35/35/30/30/25/25. Each hit did something like d8 +14+2d6+9+1, or 35.5 per hit. Since he could get the surprise round with hide equipment, it was 9 hits (with knives of luck) dealing about 300 points of damage on average.

Edit: The equivalent fighter did 450 approximately, BTW. However, by this point in time, it was largely academic in either direction.