Best spell

[Eloel]

I remember a thread on Magic Missiles. So I went and calculated a bit, and the result was interesting.
Caster level is 20 in following.
As a level 1 spell, Magic Missile deals 17.5 damage average (5d4+5)
As a level 3 spell, Magic Missile deals 25.75 damage average (with Empower)
As a level 4 spell, Magic Missile deals 25 damage (with Maximize)
As a level 4 spell, Magic Missile deals 35 damage average (with Twin Spell)
As a level 6 spell, Magic Missile deals 37.5 damage (with Maximize and Empower)
As a level 6 spell, Magic Missile deals 51.5 damage average (with Twin and Empower)
As a level 7 spell, Magic Missile deals 50 damage (with Maximize and Twin)
As a level 9 spell, Magic Missile deals 75 damage (with Empower, Maximize, Twin)

The damage seems solid, but how does that compare against other spells?

[BRC]

No spell can match Otto's Irrisistable Dance. It deals 5d100 humilation damage.

a Cleric can cure wounds, but they cannot remove the shame.

[insecure]

I remember a thread on Magic Missiles. So I went and calculated a bit, and the result was interesting.
Caster level is 20 in following.
As a level 1 spell, Magic Missile deals 17.5 damage average (5d4+5)
As a level 3 spell, Magic Missile deals 25.75 damage average (with Empower)
As a level 4 spell, Magic Missile deals 25 damage (with Maximize)
As a level 4 spell, Magic Missile deals 35 damage average (with Twin Spell)
As a level 6 spell, Magic Missile deals 37.5 damage (with Maximize and Empower)
As a level 6 spell, Magic Missile deals 51.5 damage average (with Twin and Empower)
As a level 7 spell, Magic Missile deals 50 damage (with Maximize and Twin)
As a level 9 spell, Magic Missile deals 75 damage (with Empower, Maximize, Twin)

The damage seems solid, but how does that compare against other spells?

In short, AFAIK, very badly. Take a look at the orb spells, if you've got Complete Arcane, they are some of the best damage spells.

[Emperor Tippy]

A level 7 maximized Orb of Fire deals 90 damage. At level 4 with a CL of 20 it's average damage is 52.5 damage.

[Hal]

I still love Entice Gift. Yes, it has a will save involved, but if it goes off the target hands you whatever they have in their hands. Imagine the chaos that can ensue if you use this on the BBEG waving his doomsday MacGuffin around (that is, unless your DM is railroading and "rolls" behind the screen).

[Stupendous_Man]

I remember a thread on Magic Missiles. So I went and calculated a bit, and the result was interesting.
Caster level is 20 in following.
As a level 1 spell, Magic Missile deals 17.5 damage average (5d4+5)
As a level 3 spell, Magic Missile deals 25.75 damage average (with Empower)
As a level 4 spell, Magic Missile deals 25 damage (with Maximize)
As a level 4 spell, Magic Missile deals 35 damage average (with Twin Spell)
As a level 6 spell, Magic Missile deals 37.5 damage (with Maximize and Empower)
As a level 6 spell, Magic Missile deals 51.5 damage average (with Twin and Empower)
As a level 7 spell, Magic Missile deals 50 damage (with Maximize and Twin)
As a level 9 spell, Magic Missile deals 75 damage (with Empower, Maximize, Twin)

The damage seems solid, but how does that compare against other spells?

Orb of Force: 1d6/level, caps at 1d6 level.

Empower Maximize: 90 damage (level 9 spell)

Arcane Thesis Empower Maximize: still 90 damage, but a level 7 spell.

Orb of Acid: 1d6/level, max of 15d6 level

Arcane Thesis Empower Maximize: 135 damage.

[Gao]

Alternatively, Flesh to stone is a will save vs. lose, Greater Bestow Curse is a will save vs. screwed, and Prismatic Spray is save vs pwnt.

See where I'm going with this?

[Shades of Gray]

Summon Bigger Fish. Cookie for the reference.

[ghost_warlock]

Meh. Direct damage is for fighters. Arcane spellcasters are better off taking disrobe (BoEF) at 3rd/4th and memorizing it as many times as possible.

[BRC]

Alternatively, Flesh to stone is a will save vs. lose, Greater Bestow Curse is a will save vs. screwed, and Prismatic Spray is save vs pwnt.

See where I'm going with this?
Ah yes. The only thing better than killing your foe, is killing them and then using them as a lawn ornament.

[RTGoodman]

It's alright, I guess, since it's unblockable without shield, but it's certainly not the "best." As Tippy said, there are WAY better ways to pump out spell damage. I mean, if you're casting 9th level spells, you could even just be using meteor swarm for what, 84 average damage if you use it against one target (24d6 damage).

The "best" spell, whatever it is, is probably NOT a direct-damage spell. It's gonna be something that gives you ridiculous options, like wish, miracle, shapechange, polymorph any object, or something like that.


EDIT: Or this:

Meh. Direct damage is for fighters. Arcane spellcasters are better off taking disrobe (BoEF) at 3rd/4th and memorizing it as many times as possible.

:smallbiggrin:

[Eloel]

You know I meant the best direct damage spell...

[Neithan]

I vote for Magic Missile.

It's not that strong, but you get it very early, can cast it many times per day later on, it always hits, it's almost impossible to block (except you expected it), and can hurt incorporeal creature. Not the strongest spell, but if you add all factors together, I'm quite sure it summs up to a score like no other spell.

[RTGoodman]

You know I meant the best direct damage spell...

In that case, look at Stupendous Man's post. Magic missile has its uses, but being a super damage dealer isn't really one of them. I mean, it'll do in a pinch, but I still think there are much better damage spells.

[CthulhuM]

Yeah, for the absolute best spell in the game, it's a tossup between shapechange and gate. Shapechange doesn't have an XP cost, and can make you much tougher to kill, but gate gets you the creature's spell-like abilities, plus the extra action it takes for you each round.

EDIT: Oh, and as for being the best damage spell... yeah, what they said above. Also, I'd say the damage spell with the most potential is Greater Fireburst from SpC, which, at 1d10 per caster level capped at 15d10, clocks in at 150 damage as an 8th level spell, or perhaps an arcane thesised maximized greater harm (HoH) for 240 damage at level 9.

[insecure]

Yeah, for the absolute best spell in the game, it's a tossup between shapechange and gate. Shapechange doesn't have an XP cost, and can make you much tougher to kill, but gate gets you the creature's spell-like abilities, plus the extra action it takes for you each round.

That depends on whether epic spellcasting is allowed or not.:smallwink:

[puppyavenger]

Summon Bigger Fish. Cookie for the reference.

Darth's and Droids


Firefox recognizes Darth :smallfrown:

[Eloel]

How would a Warmage with Acid Arrow work? Acid Arrow deals damage over many rounds, Warmage adds Int modifier to all of them. It looked powerfully low level to me o_O

Edit:
With +8 modifier at level 20
As a level 2 spell, Acid Arrow deals 91 damage average (2d4+8 x 7)
As a level 4 spell, Acid Arrow deals 136.5 damage average (with Empower)
As a level 5 spell, Acid Arrow deals 112 damage (with Maximize)
As a level 5 spell, Acid Arrow deals 192 damage average (with Twin Spell)
As a level 7 spell, Acid Arrow deals 168 damage (with Maximize and Empower)
As a level 7 spell, Acid Arrow deals 273 damage average (with Twin and Empower)
As a level 8 spell, Acid Arrow deals 224 damage (with Maximize and Twin)

at a whooping range of 1200 ft.

Whoa, that turned out more damaging than I expected

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Summon Bigger Fish. Cookie for the reference.
For the last time, it's not magic. Don't say, "I cast such-and-such". Use the Force, you idiot!


Anyway I thought that if you maximized empowered you spells it would deal damage equal to max+0.5(x1dx2+x3) instead of 1.5*max damage.


Edit: corrected for complete mathematical uhhh, correctness?

[ChaosDefender24]

Draconic Polymorph, full attack with a Cave Troll (at level 9)

Lots of damage if stuff hits, especially on a pounce. Wraithstrike to be safe

And daze, and grapple

[RTGoodman]

Anyway I thought that if you maximized empowered you spells it would deal damage equal to max+0.5(xdx+x) instead of 1.5*max damage.

It is - a lot of people miss that, even though they made sure to point it out specifically in the description of either Maximize or Empower.

[CthulhuM]

How would a Warmage with Acid Arrow work? Acid Arrow deals damage over many rounds, Warmage adds Int modifier to all of them. It looked powerfully low level to me o_O

Edit:
With +8 modifier at level 20
As a level 2 spell, Acid Arrow deals 91 damage average (2d4+8 x 7)
As a level 4 spell, Acid Arrow deals 136.5 damage average (with Empower)
As a level 5 spell, Acid Arrow deals 112 damage (with Maximize)
As a level 5 spell, Acid Arrow deals 192 damage average (with Twin Spell)
As a level 7 spell, Acid Arrow deals 168 damage (with Maximize and Empower)
As a level 7 spell, Acid Arrow deals 273 damage average (with Twin and Empower)
As a level 8 spell, Acid Arrow deals 224 damage (with Maximize and Twin)

at a whooping range of 1200 ft.

Whoa, that turned out more damaging than I expected

The warmage gets his int bonus to damage once per spell (presumably on the initial damage). It would apply twice with twin spell, and it could be argued that empower increases it by 50%, but it definitely would not apply each round the spell dealt damage.

[Keld Denar]

If you consider that a negative level results in the loss of 5 hp each...

Enervation with Incantrix and Arcane Thesis

4
+0 Empower
+1 Maximize
+2 Quicken
+2 Twin
+0 Split Ray
+2 Repeating
-1 Sanctum
-1 Moil
+0 Occular
=9

So, you shoot from your eyes 4 black rays each, so 8 rays. Then you cast the non-quickened version for 8 more rays. The next round, the repeat spells fire for 16 more rays, plus the fact that you cast the spells again for 16 more rays. Thats 48 Enervation rays in 2 rounds that each do 4+(1d4)/2* negative levels. 198 + (48d4)/2 averaging 318 negative levels in 2 rounds. Each negative level causes the loss of 5 hp, meaning you do 530 damage the first round and 1060 damage in the 2nd round for a total of 1590 damage in 2 rounds (not counting the fact that your eye lasers go off again the 3rd round thanks to repeat!).

Do I win?

* Fixed

[Bayar]

Summon Bigger Fish. Cookie for the reference.

You cannot summon giant salmons over people in 3.5 .You could do that in an older version though :biggrin::cool:


Darth's and Droids
Actually it is Avatar Battle Royale.

[Stupendous_Man]

If you consider that a negative level results in the loss of 5 hp each...

Enervation with Incantrix and Arcane Thesis

4
+0 Empower
+1 Maximize
+2 Quicken
+2 Twin
+0 Split Ray
+2 Repeating
-1 Sanctum
-1 Moil
+0 Occular
=9

So, you shoot from your eyes 4 black rays each, so 8 rays. Then you cast the non-quickened version for 8 more rays. The next round, the repeat spells fire for 16 more rays, plus the fact that you cast the spells again for 16 more rays. Thats 48 Enervation rays in 2 rounds that each do 4+1d2 negative levels. 198 + 48d2 averaging 342 negative levels in 2 rounds. Each negative level causes the loss of 5 hp, meaning you do 570 damage the first round and 1140 damage in the 2nd round for a total of 1710 damage in 2 rounds (not counting the fact that your eye lasers go off again the 3rd round thanks to repeat!).

Do I win?

Enervation deals 1d4 negative levels, not 1d2.

[Ent]

The warmage gets his int bonus to damage once per spell (presumably on the initial damage). It would apply twice with twin spell, and it could be argued that empower increases it by 50%, but it definitely would not apply each round the spell dealt damage.

Yeah, I believe it's only once unfortunately. You can always extend Acid Arrow though.

[Starsinger]

Anyway I thought that if you maximized empowered you spells it would deal damage equal to max+0.5(xdx+x) instead of 1.5*max damage.

Huh? What? English please...

[Collin152]

Anyway I thought that if you maximized empowered you spells it would deal damage equal to max+0.5(xdx+x) instead of 1.5*max damage.

Actually, I think the formula for empowered spells is 1.5(xdy)+z
So Maximized Empowered = (x*y) + .5(xdy) + z

[RTGoodman]

Huh? What? English please...

An empowered maximized spell doesn't maximize the spell and then add half of that amount again for empower. For instance, you wouldn't, on a spell that does 10d10 damage, do 150 damage (100 maximized, +50 for empowered).

Instead, you add the maximized value to half of a rolled value. In the above example, the correct way would be to add 100 damage (from the maximized 10d10), and then physically roll the dice and take half of the amount (for an average of 27.5 damage.


Maximize Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

[Emperor Tippy]

Huh? What? English please...

A maximized, empowered Orb of Fire cast at CL 20 deals 90+.5(15d6) fire damage. Not a flat 135 fire damage.

And with incantatrix and arcane thesis I can have that orb dealing around a thousand damage per casting with 2 castings per round.

[Keld Denar]

Enervation deals 1d4 negative levels, not 1d2.

Correct normally. An Empowered Maximized Enervation would do 4 + (1d4)/2 negative levels, which can be simplified to 4 +1d2. I shortened it for simplicities sake. If you want, I can go back and write it as 4 + (1d4)/2 though.

:P

[Stupendous_Man]

Correct normally. An Empowered Maximized Enervation would do 4 + (1d4)/2 negative levels, which can be simplified to 4 +1d2. I shortened it for simplicities sake. If you want, I can go back and write it as 4 + (1d4)/2 though.

:P
Statistically, I'm not sure that your notation is kosher.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Actually, I think the formula for empowered spells is 1.5(xdy)+z
So Maximized Empowered = (x*y) + .5(xdy) + z

sure, whatever, out of spite I've corrected it in such a way that it is optimally confusing but still correct.



Statistically, I'm not sure that your notation is kosher.

Stupendous Man is right, Keld Denar is wrong, 1d2=1.5 on average and 0.5(1d4)=1.25 on average.

[Collin152]

Correct normally. An Empowered Maximized Enervation would do 4 + (1d4)/2 negative levels, which can be simplified to 4 +1d2. I shortened it for simplicities sake. If you want, I can go back and write it as 4 + (1d4)/2 though.

:P

1d4/2 is not the same as 1d2.
Ever.

[Eloel]

1d4/2 = 1.25
1d2 = 1.5

[Keld Denar]

Why not? You can't look at the average damage, because dice only return intergers. Thus, with 1d4/2, you have a 50% chance to roll a 1 or 2, resulting in a 1, and a 50% chance of rolling a 3 or 4, resulting in 2?

Or does D&Ds rounding rule of "screw the player" mean that a roll of 1, 2, or 3 on a d4 result in 1, and only a 4 result in 2? If so, then I'm wrong. Otherwise, I'm right, and 1d2 = 1d4/2.

[Eloel]

When you get to multiplication, you don't round till after you're done.

Edit: After a roll on myth-weavers

Dice Roll: 1d4/2
d4 Results: 3 (Total = 1)

[Emperor Tippy]

Why not? You can't look at the average damage, because dice only return intergers. Thus, with 1d4/2, you have a 50% chance to roll a 1 or 2, resulting in a 1, and a 50% chance of rolling a 3 or 4, resulting in 2?

Or does D&Ds rounding rule of "screw the player" mean that a roll of 1, 2, or 3 on a d4 result in 1, and only a 4 result in 2? If so, then I'm wrong. Otherwise, I'm right, and 1d2 = 1d4/2.

You are dividing each die by 2 when you are only supposed to divide the total by 2.

(100d4)/2 averages 125.
100d2 averages 150.

[Keld Denar]

You are dividing each die by 2 when you are only supposed to divide the total by 2.

(100d4)/2 averages 125.
100d2 averages 150.

GAH! You kids and your logic. Fine, I'll change it. For a single die, it would be an accurage aproximation though, right? Or do you always round .5 down in D&D? I seem to remember reading that somewhere.

[Eloel]

You round them down to a minimum of 1...

[Stupendous_Man]

Why not? You can't look at the average damage, because dice only return intergers. Thus, with 1d4/2, you have a 50% chance to roll a 1 or 2, resulting in a 1, and a 50% chance of rolling a 3 or 4, resulting in 2?

Or does D&Ds rounding rule of "screw the player" mean that a roll of 1, 2, or 3 on a d4 result in 1, and only a 4 result in 2? If so, then I'm wrong. Otherwise, I'm right, and 1d2 = 1d4/2.

Averages are different. Mathematically, 1d2 and 1d4/2 are different averages. Would probably come into play when determining the averages of many dice.

[only1doug]

Best spell?

Greater Mighty Wallop: (RotD pg115) increase size category of bludgeoning melee weapon by 1 size category / 4 caster levels.

[Eclipse]

Well, if you're looking for pure damage (not hp, but structural damage), then control winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm) is your ticket. Use it to keep most enemies away from you, or toss them off the cliff, or whatever else. Also great for leveling cities. Well, ok, with 800 ft. radius at level 20, perhaps small town or part of a city would be more accurate.

It's great fun though.

I think everyone else has covered damage with various orb contraptions.

[AdamSmasher]

Moonbow.

240 damage as an 8th level spell (Maximized)

540 damage as an 8th level spell with Arcane Thesis (Maximized AND Empowered)

[Jalil]

Locate city bomb? How about that one?

[Edan]

Major Creation + Eschew Materials

Step 1: Create Anti-Osmium
Step 2: React it with matter
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit!

In this case the profit is ~685 quadrillion force damage.

source (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2010735#post2010735)

[Iku Rex]

Darth's and Droids I'm pretty sure it's a real jedi power actually.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LZE3lQH45Zg#t=3m40s

"The jedi has summoned a monster!"

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Actually it is Avatar Battle Royale.

Wrong. Someone in those threads may have quoted it and passed it off as their original thought, but it originally came from the webcomic Darths and Droids.

[arguskos]

Most amusing spell ever? Sphere of Ultimate Destruction (Sor/Wiz 9, from Spell Compendium). It summons a controllable sphere of annihilation. Now, tell me that's not awesome! Love that spell... XD

[Heliomance]

Yeah, for the absolute best spell in the game, it's a tossup between shapechange and gate. Shapechange doesn't have an XP cost, and can make you much tougher to kill, but gate gets you the creature's spell-like abilities, plus the extra action it takes for you each round.

EDIT: Oh, and as for being the best damage spell... yeah, what they said above. Also, I'd say the damage spell with the most potential is Greater Fireburst from SpC, which, at 1d10 per caster level capped at 15d10, clocks in at 150 damage as an 8th level spell, or perhaps an arcane thesised maximized greater harm (HoH) for 240 damage at level 9.

Wings of Flurry. 1d6 per caster level force damage, uncapped. Dragonblooded creatures cast at +1 caster level, and there are all sorts of ways to up your caster level to silly. Also it dazes on a failed save.

[CthulhuM]

Most amusing spell ever? Sphere of Ultimate Destruction (Sor/Wiz 9, from Spell Compendium). It summons a controllable sphere of annihilation. Now, tell me that's not awesome! Love that spell... XD

It's not, actually. It's more like a sphere of disintegrate. Spheres of annihilation kill anything instantly with no save. The spell just does a bunch of damage to them with a fort save to negate most of it.

Also, doesn't arcane thesis only apply to the total spell level? I know it's somewhat ambiguous from the feat's wording, but the official FAQ says so, and that kinda puts a damper on the enervate cheese.

No idea if the same can be said of the Incantatrix feature.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It's not, actually. It's more like a sphere of disintegrate. Spheres of annihilation kill anything instantly with no save. The spell just does a bunch of damage to them with a fort save to negate most of it.

Also, doesn't arcane thesis only apply to the total spell level? I know it's somewhat ambiguous from the feat's wording, but the official FAQ says so, and that kinda puts a damper on the enervate cheese.

No idea if the same can be said of the Incantatrix feature.How often do I need to post this? FAQ is wrong. FAQ, Sage Advice, and CustServ are self-contradictory and pay no attention to RAW. Arcane Thesis works the way Tippy wants it to, unfortunately. It shouldn't, reasonably, but it does, and anything else is a houserule and should be treated as such.

[Cheesegear]

Arcane Thesis works the way Tippy wants it to.

Pretty much everything does when Tippy gets involved.

[evil-frosty]

just thought i should say that... there should be no caps example a 20th lvl wizards orb of fire should do more then a 10th lvl wizards since the 20th is that much tougher

y does everyone like powergaimg to me it ruins a lot of the fun???

[Stupendous_Man]

y does everyone like powergaimg to me it ruins a lot of the fun???

Roleplaying your fifth dead character is not fun either.

[Eldariel]

Roleplaying your fifth dead character is not fun either.

Huh? I'm sure Talic and his Zombie pals would disagree with your prejudice against being dead :P

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Roleplaying your fifth dead character is not fun either.What he said. I love the challenge of facing a massively op opponent and triumphing. I don't like losing a character I worked weeks making. The combination of those 2 means I play high-power characters, and have a lot of fun.

[KKL]

By the way, Prestidigitation was here, all other spells are losers.

[RMS Oceanic]

I agree about Prestidigitaion, and here's how you do it:

1. Open a restaurant.
2. Use Prestidigitaion to make all your food delicious and popular.
3. ???
4. Profit!
5. Use your profit to hire a few hundred Warmages to sling Orbs at your enemies.
6. ???
7. Even more profit!

[Kaiyanwang]

The FAQ is wrong about Arcane thesis, I think because the answer has been given before the errata (compare the feat with the errata. In the original feat, the sage were right).

Anyway, does not seem to me that the level slot for metamagic can be bringed below 1. Both for incantatrix and updated Arcane Thesis.

So, no "-1 slot" or similar things (both the feat and the prestige class remain incredibly powerful). :smallsmile:

[AslanCross]

From my experience so far:
1. Most broken: Glitterdust, with Black Tentacles following closely. For its low level, very few monsters can actually resist it. It invariably blinds almost everything I throw at the party, unless the monsters have casters who can dispel it.
Black Tentacles absolutely hoses any Medium or smaller enemies. I've only seen Medium guys break out of it once, and even then they were taken out of the fight long enough to not really matter.

2. Most fun: Orb spells. Easy to hit with, no SR, lots of damage, plus a mildly hosing side effect. Good for turning the tide of the battle without being horribly crippling. Anything that cripples completely makes the battle boring.

3. Best multi-application spell: Solid Fog. You can shut down your enemies while blinding them, or save a falling friend's life. However, it tends to make things boring by slowing the game down dramatically.

Of course, there's Wish, but let's not go there.

[RMS Oceanic]

The FAQ is wrong about Arcane thesis, I think because the answer has been given before the errata (compare the feat with the errata. In the original feat, the sage were right).

Anyway, does not seem to me that the level slot for metamagic can be bringed below 1. Both for incantatrix and updated Arcane Thesis.

So, no "-1 slot" or similar things (both the feat and the prestige class remain incredibly powerful). :smallsmile:

I've consulted the PHBII Errata. Arcane Thesis can reduce the spell level to the spell's original level (i.e. +0), not below. Incantrix and Arcane Thesis can indeed negate the level adjustment of Empower.

But yeah, no "-1" shenanigans.

[Kaiyanwang]

Player'guide to Faerun

Improved Metamagic (Su): A t 10th l ev el, an incantatrix has
mastered metamagic to such an extent that whenev er she uses
a metamagic feat, the required increase in spell level (if any) is
reduced by one (minimum +1 spell level).





PH II

When casting that spell, you do so at +2 caster level.
When you apply a metamagic feat other than Heighten Spell
to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level
lower than normal. For example, an empowered thesis spell
uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual slot
(rather than the normal two levels higher).





Errata:

Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats
other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to
prepare an empowered maximized magic missile
(assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for
your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th
level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2;
and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).


Maybe it's my low knowledge of the english language (in that case, and for other mistakes I make on these boards, my apologies) but it seems to me that the minimum slot for both effects is +1.

[mikej]

Haste gets my vote, it is a overall great spell you never regret preparing. Cast it on yourself for the extra mobility or your comrades will greatly appreciate the extra attack.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Maybe it's my low knowledge of the english language (in that case, and for other mistakes I make on these boards, my apologies) but it seems to me that the minimum slot for both effects is +1.No, the minimum slot for Incantrix is +1. The minimum slot for Arcane Thesis is as low as you can get it.

[Kaiyanwang]

No, the minimum slot for Incantrix is +1. The minimum slot for Arcane Thesis is as low as you can get it.

found it



Page 74 – Arcane Thesis [Omission]
Add the following text to the end of the “Benefit”
section: “A spell cannot be reduced to below its
original level with the use of this feat.”


Yes, seems that Incantatrix cannot go more than +1 but AT can go til 0.

[DigoDragon]

Do I win?

Normally I'd say yes, but if your target was undead or buffed against negative levels... I'm gonna have say no. :smallsmile: You still get the cookie though for creative thinking.