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golentan
2008-11-29, 05:43 PM
We all know Wizards of the Coast doesn't understand basic chemistry, or how it interacts with biology. Poison, for example. With most poisons, even low level characters will be okay after a little lie down. It's not even possible for poisons that don't deal CON damage to be lethal, even though it's quite possible to paralyze people, do enough nerve damage, etc. to the extent that their heart stops.

But this takes the cake. I found this gem in the MSRD:

Bases neutralize acids but do not deal damage.

My relative the chemist is very glad to know that his scars aren't real, because obviously bases do not inflict damage.

So I'd like to throw this thread open to all the stupid things in 3.0, 3.5, and D20 modern that fundamentally contradict the way things work. Ignoring thermodynamics, "Explosions do not work that way," massive inertia on tiny objects, chemistry that breaks every natural law, performing 2000 attacks and traveling half a mile in 6 seconds, or anything else "mundane" that makes no sense. No magic/similar stuff, I'm willing to suspend disbelief to a certain extent for fantasy settings.

Flashlight
2008-11-29, 05:59 PM
Sculpt Spell

The fireball explodes, but the explosion moves around my allies!

Edit: It's metamagic but it's really unimaginable

Evil DM Mark3
2008-11-29, 06:01 PM
This is exactly why I have always ruled that bases work just like acids.

The equipment lists are full of oddities, as are the crafting rules.

Potions have no appreciable weight, a potion vials are 20 to the pound.
A pint of holy water weighs a pound, a pint flask a pound and a half.
Have you seen how much more expensive a ten foot pole is than a ten foot ladder?
Because they have no cost clubs and quaterstaffs take 0 seconds to make. (Knife + Tree)/0 seconds = pile of clubs.
Which is rather odd considering how expensive firewood is.
If you use the values given for base metal weights and iron pot costs less than it's weight in iron.

Andras
2008-11-29, 06:02 PM
The best examples of this would probably come from d20 modern, because the rest can be written off as magic/a wizard did it.

But to contribute, the peasant railgun.

Kris Strife
2008-11-29, 06:15 PM
The best examples of this would probably come from d20 modern, because the rest can be written off as magic/a wizard did it.

But to contribute, the peasant railgun.

Pixie Marble Deathray!

RS14
2008-11-29, 06:22 PM
The half-dragon template interacts poorly with medium or smaller flying creatures. An adult half-dragon arrowhawk, for example, has no wings, yet can fly.

A half-dragon that is Large or larger has wings and can fly at twice its base land speed (maximum 120 ft.) with average maneuverability. A half-dragon that is Medium or smaller does not have wings.
It is medium, so does not have wings. Yet the template never removes its fly speed.

hamishspence
2008-11-29, 06:24 PM
Interpret it as "does not have Extra Wings" a half-dragon dragon of medium size would get same issue.

Collin152
2008-11-29, 06:35 PM
Interpret it as "does not have Extra Wings" a half-dragon dragon of medium size would get same issue.

You evidently don't get the point of that post.

Saint Nil
2008-11-29, 06:38 PM
The best examples of this would probably come from d20 modern, because the rest can be written off as magic/a wizard did it.

But to contribute, the peasant railgun.

Peasant railgun? Please explain, my good playgrounders.

Kris Strife
2008-11-29, 06:46 PM
Peasant railgun? Please explain, my good playgrounders.

get 658962478854331 peasants in a line and have them all ready an action of 'pass the pig' then hand one end a pig. by RAW that pig will travel at x * 5fps where x is the number of peasants, in a swift action, which would cause massive impact damage to the pig and whatever it hits. the Pixie Marble Death ray is the same concept.

Zenos
2008-11-29, 06:48 PM
Basically handing over something and recieving it is a move action and a free action, thus a bunch of peasants in a LOOOng line can effectively hand each other a quarterstaff in just 6 seconds. Which when coupled with it travelling around five million feet in 6 seconds means... It's travelling fast.

EDIT: O'Kais, those ninjas and their Sudden Strikes...

Saint Nil
2008-11-29, 06:49 PM
Thank you. Now excuse me while I make sure my players never take the leadership feat to a high enough level that combined they could do anything like that.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-29, 06:53 PM
And it doesn't actually do any damage in the end. Different frames of reference and velocity is determined by your local frame.

As for wizards not knowing anything: Sticking your head underwater can heal you. And death has no consequences.

Zenos
2008-11-29, 06:56 PM
And they don't know how economy works, since a trench digger and a lawyer with the same ranks in their respective professions get just as much money on average.

Evil DM Mark3
2008-11-29, 06:59 PM
Drowning does not heal you.

Drowning causes you to go to 0hp, but you die 3 rounds later. There are no rules for stopping drowning.

Jalil
2008-11-29, 07:05 PM
Drowning does not heal you.

Drowning causes you to go to 0hp, but you die 3 rounds later. There are no rules for stopping drowning.

Frenzied bezerkers go into 'deathless rage' take an undefined large amount of damage (hundreds of thousands, say) and then sticks his head into a bucket of water. goes from -100,000,000 to zero just like that. Given that there are no rules for stopping drowning, as you've said, you'd still die, but if the DM doesn't catch it. Some dudes 'Evil trick #3' IIRC, from the CharOp boards.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-29, 07:05 PM
Drowning does not heal you.

Drowning causes you to go to 0hp, but you die 3 rounds later. There are no rules for stopping drowning.

See this sentence, the bolded part specifically.

Healing that raises his hit points to 1 or more makes him fully functional again, just as if he’d never been reduced to 0 or lower.
From here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#stableCharactersandRecovery).

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-29, 07:09 PM
And they don't know how economy works, since a trench digger and a lawyer with the same ranks in their respective professions get just as much money on average.

Socialism!

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-29, 07:10 PM
If you have horses spaced every 60 feet (or whatever the horses base move speed is) apart you can circle the world in 6 seconds.

Evil DM Mark3
2008-11-29, 07:11 PM
See this sentence, the bolded part specifically.

From here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#stableCharactersandRecovery).

If you have magic healing, why bother with the bucket?

But the real point is that there is no way to stop drowning. You DIE, regardless of the other circumstances.

Random NPC
2008-11-29, 07:16 PM
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/6067/catgirlun5.png

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-29, 07:21 PM
If you have magic healing, why bother with the bucket?

But the real point is that there is no way to stop drowning. You DIE, regardless of the other circumstances.

No. Because drowing is not part of "fully functional" and magical healing that brings you to 1+ HP is "just as if he’d never been reduced to 0 or lower.". Drowning reduces you to 0 or lower HP if you wait a round.

So Round 1: Stick head in bucket of water, HP is now set to 0.
Round 2: Be drowning, HP is now reduced by 1 so that it is equal to -1.
Round 2.5: Be healed with magical healing that heals at least 2 points.

You are now fully functional and are treated as never having been at 0 or lower. Meaning never having been drowning.

Keld Denar
2008-11-29, 07:27 PM
There is no limit to the number of people who can be in a grapple. That means you can fit the entire population of the earth in one 5'x5' square, given that joining a grapple (as long as you don't have improved grab) requires you to move into the grapplee's square. Each person just has to grapple the person who joined the grapple last. Call it a 1 dimensional conga line.

If you get a large number of people to hug each other, they can move obscenely fast! In order to move a grapple, you only have to beat all of the other people in a grapple check. You can choose to fail a grapple check. Thus, on each persons turn, they make a check to move the grapple. Everyone else in the grapple chooses to fail, so the person wins and moves the grapple 1/2 of their base movement speed. Then the 2nd person goes, does the same thing, and moves the grapple again. Then the 3rd person and so on, until EVERYONE in the world has taken their turn. By this point, you'll have gone far enough to circle the world, several times, I'd guess. How fun is that?

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-29, 07:30 PM
Now hit the whole grapple with a Resilient Sphere and have them end it. :smallwink:

Collin152
2008-11-29, 07:42 PM
Now hit the whole grapple with a Resilient Sphere and have them end it. :smallwink:

Organic black hole?

Oslecamo
2008-11-29, 07:44 PM
And they don't know how economy works, since a trench digger and a lawyer with the same ranks in their respective professions get just as much money on average.

This actually makes sense.

After all, who the hello hires lawyers in the D&D universe? :smalltongue:

If you think someone broke the law, you don't send your lawyers, you send adventurers/monsters/armies after them. :smallbiggrin:

But well, think of those incosistencies this way: D&D universe works in a diferent set of phsyical laws than our universe.

After all, who would say that if you split an atom you get enough energy to raze down towns?
Or that if you travel real fast time starts to work in a diferent way for you?
Did you know hyphortemia can be used to heal people?
All ridiculous of course! Or not...

Collin152
2008-11-29, 07:47 PM
This actually makes sense.

After all, who the hello hires lawyers in the D&D universe? :smalltongue:

If you think someone broke the law, you don't send your lawyers, you send adventurers/monsters/armies after them. :smallbiggrin:

But well, think of those incosistencies this way: D&D universe works in a diferent set of phsyical laws than our universe.

After all, who would say that if you split an atom you get enough energy to raze down towns?
Or that if you travel real fast time starts to work in a diferent way for you?
Did you know hyphortemia can be used to heal people?
All ridiculous of course! Or not...

Lawyers serve a purpose;
Negotiations with Efreet in ways that prevent them from screwing you over too badly.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-29, 07:49 PM
Organic black hole?

Not quite. Actually not quite by quite a large margin.

Collin152
2008-11-29, 07:51 PM
Not quite. Actually not quite by quite a large margin.

Well, everyone on the planet is dead anyways, so who's to prove me wrong?

Tengu_temp
2008-11-29, 07:51 PM
It's nothing new that Wizards know nothing about anything.


To walk a dog, you need a 30 feet long leash - the dog walks 30 feet in a round, and then you do. A shorter leash will slow you down.

Kris Strife
2008-11-29, 08:05 PM
And thats if the dog doesnt go chasing after something.

Bayar
2008-11-29, 08:08 PM
Cat kills commoner.

Oslecamo
2008-11-29, 08:10 PM
Cat kills commoner.

Have you ever tryed to anger a cat? I'll tell you, they can be quite nasty when cornered.

Roderick_BR
2008-11-29, 09:27 PM
get 658962478854331 peasants in a line and have them all ready an action of 'pass the pig' then hand one end a pig. by RAW that pig will travel at x * 5fps where x is the number of peasants, in a swift action, which would cause massive impact damage to the pig and whatever it hits. the Pixie Marble Death ray is the same concept.
The only problem is that D&D doesn't have rules for momentun, making that trick completely useless, as the "ammunition" would completely lose ALL it's speed in the momment the last peasant were ready to throw it :smalltongue:
Yeah, a monk running at a couple thousand miles/hour and hitting something would deal the same damage as if he had only run 30 ft.

Edit:

No. Because drowing is not part of "fully functional" and magical healing that brings you to 1+ HP is "just as if he’d never been reduced to 0 or lower.". Drowning reduces you to 0 or lower HP if you wait a round.

So Round 1: Stick head in bucket of water, HP is now set to 0.
Round 2: Be drowning, HP is now reduced by 1 so that it is equal to -1.
Round 2.5: Be healed with magical healing that heals at least 2 points.

You are now fully functional and are treated as never having been at 0 or lower. Meaning never having been drowning.
No matter that you are functional. You still die, because the rules says you die, not because you take more damage. You can be at 10000 HP, in the 3rd round, you die.
Actually, by RAW, if someone is drowning, goes to 0 HP, you rescue him, and heals him, he still dies.

When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns.
Yes, there is no rules to save someone from drowning!

Fax Celestis
2008-11-29, 09:35 PM
Good job, guys: you've just proven that none of you have any common sense.

Artanis
2008-11-29, 09:42 PM
I'm with Oslecamo on the lawyer/ditchdigger thing. Lawyers are only useful when you can't find an adventurer to hit the other guy with a stick. Ditchdiggers, on the other hand, will be in short supply since they'll all be busy digging mass graves for the citizens of the 5000 villages that are burned to the ground every hour.

Alyss
2008-11-29, 09:42 PM
Good job, guys: you've just proven that none of you have any common sense.

Seconded. None of this stuff actually works in a real D&D game...

The Glyphstone
2008-11-29, 09:45 PM
I'm pretty sure that was the intent of the thread.

Lord Zentei
2008-11-29, 10:01 PM
Good job, guys: you've just proven that none of you have any common sense.

Good job: you've just proven that you don't get it. :smalltongue:

This thread is about silly rules, not about viable exploits.


EDIT: if the drowning thing is unavoidable, perhaps it can be used offensively: unseen servant and a bucket of water versus the BBEG. Hail Dorothy!:smallcool:

BRC
2008-11-29, 10:03 PM
Idea
Guard: excuse me sir, are those acid flasks, you must know that all weapons must be removed before I can allow you an audience with the duke.
PC: No sir! They are, in fact, full of a powerful base, the opposite of acid.
Guard: Oh, okay, head on in
*Five Minutes Pass*
Duke: MY FACE! IT BURNS!

Lord Zentei
2008-11-29, 10:12 PM
You can only take nonlethal damage from thirst and starvation. Meaning you can become Unconscious but not Dead from these effects.

Alyss
2008-11-29, 10:14 PM
No rules for sleep.

Thurbane
2008-11-29, 11:18 PM
get 658962478854331 peasants in a line and have them all ready an action of 'pass the pig' then hand one end a pig. by RAW that pig will travel at x * 5fps where x is the number of peasants, in a swift action, which would cause massive impact damage to the pig and whatever it hits. the Pixie Marble Death ray is the same concept.
Ah, I've always wondered about this. I've seen the comments.

Now can someone explain how this related to catgirls dying?

Weizegger
2008-11-29, 11:30 PM
There is no limit to the number of people who can be in a grapple. That means you can fit the entire population of the earth in one 5'x5' square, given that joining a grapple (as long as you don't have improved grab) requires you to move into the grapplee's square. Each person just has to grapple the person who joined the grapple last. Call it a 1 dimensional conga line.

If you get a large number of people to hug each other, they can move obscenely fast! In order to move a grapple, you only have to beat all of the other people in a grapple check. You can choose to fail a grapple check. Thus, on each persons turn, they make a check to move the grapple. Everyone else in the grapple chooses to fail, so the person wins and moves the grapple 1/2 of their base movement speed. Then the 2nd person goes, does the same thing, and moves the grapple again. Then the 3rd person and so on, until EVERYONE in the world has taken their turn. By this point, you'll have gone far enough to circle the world, several times, I'd guess. How fun is that?

This is not true. No limit to the number of grapples is true. Only four medium sized creatures can be functional in a single 5 foot square, after that they would be prone and not in a grapple. However, a fifth person can be in the grapple, and stand in the next square. These limits flux based on size of creatures.

Heliomance
2008-11-29, 11:32 PM
get 658962478854331 peasants in a line and have them all ready an action of 'pass the pig' then hand one end a pig. by RAW that pig will travel at x * 5fps where x is the number of peasants, in a swift action, which would cause massive impact damage to the pig and whatever it hits.

No it wouldn't. It causes 1d6+STR damage at the end, -4 on the attack roll because the commoner probably isn't proficient with it, and IIRC another -2 because quarterstaves aren't designed as thrown weapons.

EDIT: Just noticed you said pig instead of quarterstaff. Means the damage is even lower, because it's an improvised weapon. Unless one of the commoners has the Pig Bond flaw, in which case the damage is indeed massive.

Innis Cabal
2008-11-29, 11:34 PM
No rules for sleep.

Why...would you need those?

They have rules if you don't sleep. Thats all you need.

And commoners are proficient with simple weapons last I knew.

Heliomance
2008-11-29, 11:37 PM
Nope, commoners are proficient with a single simple weapon, chosen at character creation.

Innis Cabal
2008-11-29, 11:38 PM
Just make sure the guy at the end knows how to use it then.

None the less, its a rather silly way to go about things.

Ionizer
2008-11-29, 11:43 PM
Commoners are proficient with A simple weapon. Although, quarterstaff is one of the most likely candidates (others being dagger, club and sickle).

EDIT: http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s166/Ionizer_1/ninja.gif'd

Naleh
2008-11-29, 11:50 PM
Why...would you need those?

They have rules if you don't sleep. Thats all you need.

No they don't. The only disadvantage of not sleeping is that you can't refresh your spells (and you miss out on a bit of healing) - so if you don't cast spells, you don't need sleep.

Recaiden
2008-11-29, 11:59 PM
Now can someone explain how this related to catgirls dying?

"Whenver someone brings up real world physics while discussing D&D, a catgirl dies" The saying is something like that.

This is a thread about silly rules though. Like the chicken infested flaw + spell component pouch.

golentan
2008-11-30, 12:18 AM
I think the peasant railgun, whether or not it does damage at the end, definitely qualifies as an example of silly/inconsistent things that happen. Think of it this way: Each peasant spends the exact same six second time period taking and passing on an object. At the beginning of the six seconds, they ALL grab the object from the previous person, and at the end they ALL pass it on to the next person. Given that it specifically says that the combat round is an abstraction, and there is more or less simultaneity adjusted for initiative, every peasant after the first two is grabbing the object before it has been passed on to the person before them in the line.

Alternatively, you can rule that they're passing it on with exceptional speed in the order of initiative. But in this case the farther an object travels, the less time it takes to traverse the same distance, regardless of the fact that the amount of time needed to perform the movement remains the same from any frame of reference. Time dilation based on speed, or rather distance.

The peasant railgun actually now has corollaries to the real world: We have either relativity or quantum mechanics, they both give true answers, and they are mutually exclusive. Let's start working towards a grand unified field theory.

Yes, I realize how horribly I butchered modern physics. I just thought it was a fun rationalization. These have been good answers, keep it up!

Innis Cabal
2008-11-30, 12:39 AM
No they don't. The only disadvantage of not sleeping is that you can't refresh your spells (and you miss out on a bit of healing) - so if you don't cast spells, you don't need sleep.


Thats not true. You get fatigued which is an awful place to be.

RS14
2008-11-30, 12:43 AM
This is not true. No limit to the number of grapples is true. Only four medium sized creatures can be functional in a single 5 foot square, after that they would be prone and not in a grapple. However, a fifth person can be in the grapple, and stand in the next square. These limits flux based on size of creatures.
Nope. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. This exploit works so long as you grapple the last person to enter the grapple. They're all piggyback, more or less. Nobody grapples more than two opponents.

Keld Denar
2008-11-30, 12:44 AM
Thats not true. You get fatigued which is an awful place to be.

Yea, but fatigued is a REALLY easy condition to remove. A simple casting of Lesser Restoration or Ray of Resurgance leaves you renewed and refreshed upon the morning. Its like coffee for adventurers.

An Eternal Wand of Lesser Restoration made by a paladin would cost 750g and function twice a day. Not bad, for never having to sleep again.

Innis Cabal
2008-11-30, 12:46 AM
The fact remains there is a result if you don't sleep. Magic solves everything! From disease to death. If it can't give you a pick me up then we've got problems.

Though if I was DMing..there would still be problems. You may not need the sleep physically but there are other things to take into consideration.

Thurbane
2008-11-30, 01:26 AM
Thats not true. You get fatigued which is an awful place to be.
I'm with the others, I don't believe this rule actually exists.

Can someone point to where the effects of not sleeping, other than not getting spells back, are actually written? I think a lot of people assume the rule exists, but I've scoured the books and the SRD with no luck.

RS14
2008-11-30, 01:29 AM
I've been thinking a bit about grappling rules. By RAW, I don't believe certain large-ish creatures can grapple smaller creatures without an escape artist check. A huge creature trying to grapple a medium creature is an excellent example. It's not large enough to trigger the "Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller" clause, and in order to move into the target's square, it must squeeze, requiring an escape artist check. If it doesn't...

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target.
Improved Grab may offer a solution, as the target is moved into the grappler's space. If you take this as a "specific trumping general" exception to the entire "Step 4" of grappling, then the grapple can be maintained. On the other hand, you can read the rules as still requiring the grappler to move into the target's space, this fixes nothing.

Those crazy rules. :smallamused:

Edit: made a mistake in the above. The "Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller" clause doesn't apply at all, as it is only concerned with moving through a space. Thus the above flaw applies to any creature trying to grapple, provided its space is more than twice the size of the target's space.

RPGuru1331
2008-11-30, 01:34 AM
get 658962478854331 peasants in a line and have them all ready an action of 'pass the pig' then hand one end a pig. by RAW that pig will travel at x * 5fps where x is the number of peasants, in a swift action, which would cause massive impact damage to the pig and whatever it hits. the Pixie Marble Death ray is the same concept.

Actually, it would deal 1d2+Str. Damage

Which really only enhances the humor.

Zeta Kai
2008-11-30, 01:44 AM
I don't believe that anyone has mentioned that the status of being dead does not actually prevent a character from taking actions.

Eloel
2008-11-30, 01:46 AM
You can fit as big a container as you want into any bag of holding. As long as it's not too thick, and has a hole somewhere, it fits. (the extradimensional space takes shape of the container, leaving the middle empty.)

monty
2008-11-30, 01:55 AM
I don't believe that anyone has mentioned that the status of being dead does not actually prevent a character from taking actions.

When dead, your nonlethal damage (0) is greater than your current hit points (-10). Therefore, you are "unconscious."

Keld Denar
2008-11-30, 01:56 AM
I don't believe that anyone has mentioned that the status of being dead does not actually prevent a character from taking actions.

This one was actually disproved.

At just about any given time, you have at least 0 non-lethal damage (unless you have more).

If your current hp drop below 0, then your non-lethal damage (0) is greater than your current hp (>0) and you are considered unconsious, which carries with it the helpless condition. Helpless is defined as not being able to take ANY actions, and being vulnerable to coup de grace. If your current HP are -10 or less, you are dead and no longer can be cured by normal magic, and must be resurrected as stated in the PHB.

So, you can't just get up and walk around when you are dead, because you are ALSO unconsious and helpless, which is a defined state in the DMG.

BobVosh
2008-11-30, 02:15 AM
I believe you only get fatigued and exhausted if you don't rest. Sleep isn't required, except for spellcasters.

How has noone mentioned these: A pick does 1d4. A heavy pick does 1d6. Stone has a hardness of 8.

Besides crowd surfing (in the way of peasent railgun shooting you) the other quick way to get from place to place is to have a bunch of saw horses in a row. In a free action(so no time) you can get from town to town. DC 15 ride to mount as a free action. DC 25 to dismount as a free action. Break the sound barrier the warrior way!

FMArthur
2008-11-30, 02:24 AM
This one was actually disproved.

At just about any given time, you have at least 0 non-lethal damage (unless you have more).

If your current hp drop below 0, then your non-lethal damage (0) is greater than your current hp (>0) and you are considered unconsious, which carries with it the helpless condition. Helpless is defined as not being able to take ANY actions, and being vulnerable to coup de grace. If your current HP are -10 or less, you are dead and no longer can be cured by normal magic, and must be resurrected as stated in the PHB.

So, you can't just get up and walk around when you are dead, because you are ALSO unconsious and helpless, which is a defined state in the DMG.

Unless you die from things other than HP damage, which is entirely possible when magic is involved. Nonetheless, it is one of the dumber 'RAW exploits' if it can even be called one. Not every word used in the PH needs to be defined beforehand, and I can't think of any interpretations of 'dead' that mean anything other than what 'dead' means in real life. Do we have to define 'moving' as being an action that changes your position, too?

Dhavaer
2008-11-30, 02:30 AM
Unless you die from things other than HP damage, which is entirely possible when magic is involved.

In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has -10 hit points. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks)

Tyrael
2008-11-30, 02:35 AM
"Whenver someone brings up real world physics while discussing D&D, a catgirl dies" The saying is something like that.

This is a thread about silly rules though. Like the chicken infested flaw + spell component pouch.

Chicken-infested? Now you've got me curious.

FMArthur
2008-11-30, 02:41 AM
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has -10 hit points. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks)

I stand corrected.


Chicken-infested? Now you've got me curious.

Pulling things out of a spell component pouch is a free action, of which you have a limitless amount. The Chicken-Infested flaw (commoner only) makes it so that any time you take something out of a bag or pocket or box, you have a 50% chance to pull out a chicken instead. So unlimited chickens.

Peregrine
2008-11-30, 02:54 AM
So, you can't just get up and walk around when you are dead, because you are ALSO unconsious and helpless, which is a defined state in the DMG.

It's a nice argument... problem is that you can stabilise and regain consciousness and yet still be on negative hit points. So the "nonlethal > HP = unconscious" rule has an implied exception for negative HP.

Pity, really... it's a neat example of "hey, the rules work". I suppose you can save it by saying that, because regaining consciousness means you are "disabled (as if [you] had 0 hit points)" (PHB p.146), you also figure out unconsciousness by nonlethal damage as if you had 0 hit points.

That said: Isn't it said somewhere that a corpse is an object, not a creature? I've no idea where, sorry...

mabriss lethe
2008-11-30, 03:59 AM
Pulling things out of a spell component pouch is a free action, of which you have a limitless amount. The Chicken-Infested flaw (commoner only) makes it so that any time you take something out of a bag or pocket or box, you have a 50% chance to pull out a chicken instead. So unlimited chickens.


And thus the most dangerous caster was born, The Warcluck! (commoner1/warlockX with chicken infested, corpsecrafter, and destruction retribution as feats and The Dead Walk as a lesser invocation.) You too could have an ever refreshing army of ambulatory exploding chicken corpses.

Kurald Galain
2008-11-30, 05:23 AM
Idea
Guard: excuse me sir, are those acid flasks, you must know that all weapons must be removed before I can allow you an audience with the duke.

Like this, you mean? (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=922)

Tyrael
2008-11-30, 05:28 AM
I stand corrected.



Pulling things out of a spell component pouch is a free action, of which you have a limitless amount. The Chicken-Infested flaw (commoner only) makes it so that any time you take something out of a bag or pocket or box, you have a 50% chance to pull out a chicken instead. So unlimited chickens.

This is a recipe for instant hilarity, or at the very least an amusing curse. Where can I find this? It's not in Unearthed Arcana/SRD, at least that I can see...

Heliomance
2008-11-30, 05:33 AM
Dragon Magazine, I forget which issue. I believe crystalkeep.com also has it.

potatocubed
2008-11-30, 06:05 AM
It's a nice argument... problem is that you can stabilise and regain consciousness and yet still be on negative hit points. So the "nonlethal > HP = unconscious" rule has an implied exception for negative HP.

Pity, really... it's a neat example of "hey, the rules work".

Not really. It's more an example of "hey, the rules work by accident." :smalltongue:

RebelRogue
2008-11-30, 06:14 AM
Dragon Magazine, I forget which issue.
330, April 2005. Page 87. It also has gems like "Corpse", "Unimportant NPC" and "Pig Bond". The latter is probably the easiest way to summon Orcus in the game :smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon
2008-11-30, 06:18 AM
You can choose to fail a grapple check.
That's not supported by the rules. Neither is letting yourself get hit in combat. You're just not allowed to let an opponent win in these situations; the D&D multiverse prevents it.

That's my contribution to things WotC knows nothing about.

DrunkMonkGar
2008-11-30, 06:24 AM
This is probably stupid, but, well....
I notice that it doesn't actually say you die anywhere in the rules for drowning. Sure, it says on the third round you drown, but in this context that's the same thing as saying on the third round you wibble. Neither of those words are defined in the rules so neither actually has an effect. At worst you die on the eleventh round due to failed stabilization rolls because you were reduced to -1 on the second round.

Also, that thing about becoming fatigued if you don't sleep was probably extrapolated from the rule that you are fatigued if you sleep in heavy enough armor. As far as I could see there is no rule to cause fatigue if you just stand around all night, even if you wear platemail.

hewhosaysfish
2008-11-30, 06:32 AM
So, you can't just get up and walk around when you are dead, because you are ALSO unconsious and helpless, which is a defined state in the DMG.

But the definitions of "unconscious" and "helpless" do not explicitly prevent you from taking actions any more than "dead" does.
However, being helpless does effectively reduce your DEX to 0, which makes you paralysed, which makes you unable to take physical actions.
But mental actions are fine.

PSIONICS IS BROKEN!!!!!

jcsw
2008-11-30, 06:59 AM
...things in 3.0, 3.5, and D20 modern that fundamentally contradict the way things work...

I think my favorite one is Magic...

only1doug
2008-11-30, 07:42 AM
Yea, but fatigued is a REALLY easy condition to remove. A simple casting of Lesser Restoration or Ray of Resurgance leaves you renewed and refreshed upon the morning. Its like coffee for adventurers.

An Eternal Wand of Lesser Restoration made by a paladin would cost 750g and function twice a day. Not bad, for never having to sleep again.

Eternal wands (MIC Pg 159) are specifically limited to arcane spells, so you need to make your pally a arcane caster with the same spell list somehow. (I'm not claiming it can't be done).

Now lets argue which is better for a wizard/sorcerer to carry:

an eternal wand of cure critical wounds (3D8+5) (10900GP)
or 13 eternal wands of cure light wounds (1D8+1) (10660GP)

(wands created by a bard)

Evil DM Mark3
2008-11-30, 07:48 AM
How has noone mentioned these: A pick does 1d4. A heavy pick does 1d6. Stone has a hardness of 8.Note to self, do not pick a fight with a miner, they must have a Str of at least 14 (using the pick two handed) and quite possibly power attack.

Beleriphon
2008-11-30, 09:17 AM
Note to self, do not pick a fight with a miner, they must have a Str of at least 14 (using the pick two handed) and quite possibly power attack.

This is not an unreasonable assumption.

HolderofSecrets
2008-11-30, 10:24 AM
Note to self, do not pick a fight with a miner, they must have a Str of at least 14 (using the pick two handed) and quite possibly power attack.

They will also have to have more then 2 commoner levels or they still wouldn't have the BAB to use to power attack. So that means that level 1 commoners would have to have at least str 16 or would never succeed at scratching the rock on any roll. Small Miners would either have +4 higher str then there Medium counterparts or more levels for BAB to use with power attack. All this makes smaller miners even more dangerous then the larger ones. :smallbiggrin:

Hopefully they don't live in a world with critical fumbles otherwise they would have 30 chances an hour to crit fumble and hurt themselves. This is because they only have one attack a round and 600 rounds in a hour. 8 Hours of work a day gives them 240 chances a day to hurt themselves. All this makes mining a very dangerous profession.

Shpadoinkle
2008-11-30, 08:47 PM
You can fit as big a container as you want into any bag of holding. As long as it's not too thick, and has a hole somewhere, it fits. (the extradimensional space takes shape of the container, leaving the middle empty.)

...?

You're going to have to explain that one.

Curmudgeon
2008-11-30, 08:57 PM
You can fit as big a container as you want into any bag of holding. As long as it's not too thick, and has a hole somewhere, it fits. (the extradimensional space takes shape of the container, leaving the middle empty.)
...?

You're going to have to explain that one. The reason you're confused is because ozgun92 messed up the terminology. It's not an extradimensional space that has total volume (but not individual dimension) limits; rather it's a nondimensional space that has those properties. The air in a container doesn't count as part of a Bag of Holding's volume limit if the container isn't sealed.

A Portable Hole is an extradimensional container, but not a nondimensional one. A Bag of Holding is both.

newbDM
2008-11-30, 08:58 PM
Have you seen how much more expensive a ten foot pole is than a ten foot ladder?[/LIST]

Split them in two for a profit?



Because they have no cost clubs and quaterstaffs take 0 seconds to make. (Knife + Tree)/0 seconds = pile of clubs.[/LIST]

I am so trying to pull that off during the next game I am in.
You divided by 0...:smalleek:




Which is rather odd considering how expensive firewood is.
[/LIST]

LoL.

Would it be wrong if I started my next character with 100x clubs in his bag of holding, and then start pulling them out for firewood. :smallbiggrin:

SuperFish
2008-11-30, 09:18 PM
Dividing by zero is th epoint, as technically x/0 is equal to infinity.

Look at the slope of a vertical line. Rise/run, right? Well, that gives you y/0, and it has infinite slope. Therefore, x/0 is equal to infinity.

Heliomance
2008-11-30, 09:30 PM
No, x/0 is not infinity. It is undefined.

Roderick_BR
2008-11-30, 09:34 PM
Pulling things out of a spell component pouch is a free action, of which you have a limitless amount. The Chicken-Infested flaw (commoner only) makes it so that any time you take something out of a bag or pocket or box, you have a 50% chance to pull out a chicken instead. So unlimited chickens.
"An for my next trick, I'll pull a chicken outta my hat"
"Again?"

hmm... would work great for a restaurant.
"We need more chickens"
"Here"

OverWilliam
2008-11-30, 09:41 PM
Dividing by zero is th epoint, as technically x/0 is equal to infinity.

Look at the slope of a vertical line. Rise/run, right? Well, that gives you y/0, and it has infinite slope. Therefore, x/0 is equal to infinity.

No, x/0 is not infinity. It is undefined.

Wait a second... Did you just bring DnD into a discussion about Real World Physics? What happens to the catgirls now? :smalleek:

TheStagesmith
2008-11-30, 09:42 PM
Dividing by zero is th epoint, as technically x/0 is equal to infinity.

Look at the slope of a vertical line. Rise/run, right? Well, that gives you y/0, and it has infinite slope. Therefore, x/0 is equal to infinity.

NO. :smallfurious:


On another note, I've always wondered how a bunch of medium-sized adventurers (assuming no flight) are able to kill a colossal dragon by stabbing its toe.

Also, how exactly does one apply silent spell to a summon monster IX spell? I mean, if you spontaneously bring a large-ish monster into being, wouldn't that create a some kind of shock wave?

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-11-30, 09:49 PM
But the definitions of "unconscious" and "helpless" do not explicitly prevent you from taking actions any more than "dead" does.
A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless)

A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged)

A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed)

Though if you really want to pick on something… A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed), but nothing explicitly states an unconcious or otherwise helpless is prevented from taking mental actions.


Also, how exactly does one apply silent spell to a summon monster IX spell? I mean, if you spontaneously bring a large-ish monster into being, wouldn't that create a some kind of shock wave?
Silent Spell only removes the verbal components of a spell. It does not cause any effects of the spell to become silent.

Collin152
2008-11-30, 09:52 PM
x/o isn't necessarily infinity. It is any number, however, and therefore has the potential to be.
I could show the mathmatical proof for it, but then I'd have to remember it.

nightwyrm
2008-11-30, 10:06 PM
x/0 is undefined.

limit of x/z as z approaches 0 is infinity.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-30, 10:09 PM
Silent Spell only removes the verbal components of a spell. It does not cause any effects of the spell to become silent.Invisible Spell. Break both the game and the DM at once.

Zeful
2008-11-30, 10:10 PM
Wait a second... Did you just bring DnD into a discussion about Real World Physics? What happens to the catgirls now? :smalleek:

They are born en masse?

TheStagesmith
2008-11-30, 10:12 PM
Silent Spell only removes the verbal components of a spell. It does not cause any effects of the spell to become silent.

Right. I think I might not have been quite clear. I mean: as written, the SPELL itself makes no noise, just the casting thereof.


x/o isn't necessarily infinity. It is any number, however, and therefore has the potential to be.
I could show the mathmatical proof for it, but then I'd have to remember it.

Goes something like this, IIRC:

k/0 = x (where k is some constant that is not zero, and x is any real number)

multiplying both sides by zero gives us

k = 0x

which is obviously impossible. If k is 0, then you get

0x = 0

in which case x could be absolutely anything. Therefore, x/0 is undefined.

This is entirely off the top of my head/pulled out of an undisclosed orifice, so if it's wrong, I don't need my flamesuit, right? Right?

EDIT: Dang, you ninja.


x/0 is undefined.

limit of x/z as z approaches 0 is infinity.

Not quite. The fact that a function has a limit as it approaches some number implies nothing about the function's behavior at that number.

Also, something I remembered:
Infinity is not a number; it is a concept. Therefore a function cannot output infinity. Anytime that a function would give infinity as a result, it is actually undefined, since there is no such thing as an infinitely large number.

Artanis
2008-11-30, 11:21 PM
Goes something like this, IIRC:

k/0 = x (where k is some constant that is not zero, and x is any real number)

multiplying both sides by zero gives us

k = 0x

which is obviously impossible. If k is 0, then you get

0x = 0

in which case x could be absolutely anything. Therefore, x/0 is undefined.

This is entirely off the top of my head/pulled out of an undisclosed orifice, so if it's wrong, I don't need my flamesuit, right? Right?

EDIT: Dang, you ninja.
I bolded the part where it breaks: you started off with dividing by zero. Your proof basically says "if you assume you can divide by zero, then you can divide by zero", which doesn't cut it.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-30, 11:49 PM
Woah, you peoples should take favored enemy (catgirls), because you are really slaying them here.

Lord Zentei
2008-12-01, 12:20 AM
Wait a second... Did you just bring DnD into a discussion about Real World Physics? What happens to the catgirls now? :smalleek:

This is mathematics, not physics.

TheStagesmith
2008-12-01, 12:24 AM
I bolded the part where it breaks: you started off with dividing by zero. Your proof basically says "if you assume you can divide by zero, then you can divide by zero", which doesn't cut it.

I'm not sure... I haven't done proofs in a while. However, I thought that I was out to prove that x/0 is undefined, not that it is an invalid operation.


Woah, you peoples should take favored enemy (catgirls), because you are really slaying them here.

Well, IMO, the entire Favored Enemy mechanic is flawed, because it confers a benefit that anyone could really get. I mean, as long as the creature's got somewhat normal physiology, kicking them in the balls (punching in ovaries/mammaries, kidney shot, etc.) is going to give you better results than just your generic whack. You don't need an entire class feature to kick someone in the balls. You need a class feature to stay in Dire Bear form all day and beat the living **** out of anything that isn't bigger than you and has a higher grapple modifier.

Artanis
2008-12-01, 12:27 AM
...dammit, I must've misread it.

Zeful
2008-12-01, 12:31 AM
(punching in ovaries/mammaries, kidney shot, etc.)

You're far more likely to hit a kidney if your aiming for the ovaries. Besides, it's a myth that kicking a girl in between the legs does nothing. The ****oris (a large bundle of nerves) resides there and it's very sensitive.

Ravens_cry
2008-12-01, 12:40 AM
Well, IMO, the entire Favored Enemy mechanic is flawed, because it confers a benefit that anyone could really get. I mean, as long as the creature's got somewhat normal physiology, kicking them in the balls (punching in ovaries/mammaries, kidney shot, etc.) is going to give you better results than just your generic whack. You don't need an entire class feature to kick someone in the balls. You need a class feature to stay in Dire Bear form all day and beat the living **** out of anything that isn't bigger than you and has a higher grapple modifier.

We are talking a primarily fantasy genre based system, and your talking about NORMAL physiology?
Sure, for your basic humanoids, sure, there is certain assumption that can be made. But even still you wouldn't want to try to bull rush a dwarf or try to sneak away from a halfling, unless you were really good at either skill. Knowing about a specific creature type and ways of defeating and finding it makes sense to me in a world with dozens of intelligent creatures, not to mention all the animals, mundane and magical that may want make you lunch. Is it well implemented? I don't know, I have never played a ranger. But I do rather like the concept.

Knaight
2008-12-01, 12:42 AM
You're far more likely to hit a kidney if your aiming for the ovaries. Which works pretty well too, so whats the problem here?

Ravens_cry
2008-12-01, 12:57 AM
Which works pretty well too, so whats the problem here?

Depends of course on where the kidneys ARE. Or if it even HAS kidneys. Punching a stone golem in the region of the kidneys is only going to get you a broken hand. And it isn't going to do much to an undead, either. Favored enemy is all about mechanizing what would be very complicated otherwise, knowing your enemy. Without some similar system, you would have to have a system for hitting different parts of the body, a serious case of over crunch. Though knowing the way the universe works, there probably IS such a system.

Thurbane
2008-12-01, 01:14 AM
http://www.dodeca-t.com/picpile/divided_by_zero.jpg

elliott20
2008-12-01, 02:29 AM
gah!! the catgirls! DEY ARE DYING!!!

Ravens_cry
2008-12-01, 02:37 AM
gah!! the catgirls! DEY ARE DYING!!!
It is commonly known fact that upon death, cat girls dissolve into concentrated sulphuric acid. Necessitating the following statement and internet meme:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/523/gogglestg7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

elliott20
2008-12-01, 02:49 AM
well, thanks guys! you just killed us all with an acid flood. luckily it doesn't deal REAL damage, only CON damage... what, what do you mean that's not true?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-01, 02:50 AM
well, thanks guys! you just killed us all with an acid flood. luckily it doesn't deal REAL damage, only CON damage... what, what do you mean that's not true?... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#acidEffects)really, that's wrong both in and out of game

golentan
2008-12-01, 02:58 AM
well, thanks guys! you just killed us all with an acid flood. luckily it doesn't deal REAL damage, only CON damage... what, what do you mean that's not true?

Also: In what whacked out setting is CON damage preferable to normal damage. If you say to someone "You take 3d6 damage," they sigh and reach for the dice. If you say "You take 3d6 CON damage," they start calculating probability of survival, and still take massive hitpoint damage.

elliott20
2008-12-01, 03:00 AM
great, so I totally botched our chance of survival by not knowing my rules huh? well, we're boned.

Roderick_BR
2008-12-01, 11:57 AM
Well, IMO, the entire Favored Enemy mechanic is flawed, because it confers a benefit that anyone could really get. I mean, as long as the creature's got somewhat normal physiology, kicking them in the balls (punching in ovaries/mammaries, kidney shot, etc.) is going to give you better results than just your generic whack. You don't need an entire class feature to kick someone in the balls.
In D&D, you need.
And who said that favored enemy makes you hit these things that no one can hit anyway? It just says that you are better at hunting some kind of creatures, that reflect in the ability to deal more damage. No one said anything about a ranger kicking a bear in the balls.
And just because druids in general are broken, doesn't mean that others are weak (except when compared to all classes a whole).

hamishspence
2008-12-01, 12:04 PM
you know, from the title of the thread, wouldn't it fit better to discuss, not holes in the rules, but when Wizard writes a long fluff discourse- that is wrong? Say, the details of the fuedal system in DMG2?

(Except, in DMG2, they admit openly to oversimplications and generalizations- "Try this on your history teacher, and they'll flunk you faster than you can say Constantinople.")

Sinfire Titan
2008-12-01, 01:41 PM
you know, from the title of the thread, wouldn't it fit better to discuss, not holes in the rules, but when Wizard writes a long fluff discourse- that is wrong? Say, the details of the fuedal system in DMG2?

(Except, in DMG2, they admit openly to oversimplications and generalizations- "Try this on your history teacher, and they'll flunk you faster than you can say Constantinople.")

You mean like the majority of CP?

Keld Denar
2008-12-01, 02:06 PM
"Try this on your history teacher, and they'll flunk you faster than you can say Constantinople.")

What if you say Istanbul instead? Cause you know...its not Constantinople. No you can't go back to Constantinople...

Beware, TMBG!

Ravens_cry
2008-12-01, 02:34 PM
What if you say Istanbul instead? Cause you know...its not Constantinople. No you can't go back to Constantinople...

Beware, TMBG!
That's no ones business but the Turks.
Isss-tan-BULLL!!!!!

Reinboom
2008-12-01, 02:53 PM
gah!! the catgirls! DEY ARE DYING!!!

We really are not. That was biology, not physics.

holywhippet
2008-12-01, 04:54 PM
How about this scenario:

You have two brothers, both working as guards. The first brother does ballet on the side so has a decent DEX bonus (+2). The second guard has mastered standing around and scowling at people so has a DEX penalty (-1).

Both are equipped with the same weapons and armour - a longsword and chainmail.

The first brother has an AC of 17. The second has an AC of 14.

Both find themselves under attack from an evil spellcaster who hits them with a blindness spell.

Now, both brothers lose 2 AC from being blind. The first brother loses his AC bonus from dexterity. But what happens to the second brother? By RAW he doesn't lose his DEX penalty so he now has an AC of 12 compared to his brothers AC of 13. But the two of them are staggering around blind - neither can see incoming attacks so why would his DEX penalty still be in effect?

On the flipside, say both brothers are suddenly ambushed and are caught flatfooted. The first looses his DEX bonus moving him to an AC of 15. The second remains at 14 because he has no DEX bonus - but this means his poor co-ordination makes him easier to hit even though he won't be reacting. On the flipside, if you decide that flatfooted negates DEX bonuses and penalties, his AC goes to 15. But that means he is actually harder to hit when his is just standing still and not trying to evade.

monty
2008-12-01, 04:56 PM
Yeah, I always thought Dex penalties to AC were kind of weird.

Oslecamo
2008-12-01, 05:06 PM
Now, both brothers lose 2 AC from being blind. The first brother loses his AC bonus from dexterity. But what happens to the second brother? By RAW he doesn't lose his DEX penalty so he now has an AC of 12 compared to his brothers AC of 13. But the two of them are staggering around blind - neither can see incoming attacks so why would his DEX penalty still be in effect?


Think of it this way:

The first brother has found an amazing +2 flaming sword.

The second brother has a regular sword.

They both have the same strenght, BAB and feats.

A evil fighter appears and disarms them.

Now they both have the same damage and to hit chance, despite losing the same thing:their weapon.

One of the brothers just hapened to have a better weapon(dexterity) than the other, so he loses more.

In your example, the -1 dex brother was so clumsy that he simply can't get much worst.

BRC
2008-12-01, 05:12 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you apply Dex penalties to AC at all.

TheCountAlucard
2008-12-01, 05:13 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you apply Dex penalties to AC at all.

I'm pretty sure you do, though. Look at the Bone Ooze from Monster Manual II. (I'm sure there are others, but it was the first thing off the top of my head, being a monster with an AC of 1.)

Oslecamo
2008-12-01, 05:14 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you apply Dex penalties to AC at all.

You do. Check monsters with negative DEX, like the iron golem:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#ironGolem

monty
2008-12-01, 05:15 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you apply Dex penalties to AC at all.


10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier

Emphasis mine. Modifier, not bonus.

BRC
2008-12-01, 05:19 PM
Emphasis mine. Modifier, not bonus.
Hrmm. However, on those monsters, their Flat footed AC dosn't change at all compared to their regular. however, some quick math says that they keep that penalty even when flat-footed.

So if you jump out of some bushes, that acrobat-rogue can't try to avoid you, but the clumsy wizard is still capable of falling in the path of your sword.

The Minx
2008-12-01, 05:20 PM
you know, from the title of the thread, wouldn't it fit better to discuss, not holes in the rules, but when Wizard writes a long fluff discourse- that is wrong? Say, the details of the fuedal system in DMG2?

(Except, in DMG2, they admit openly to oversimplications and generalizations- "Try this on your history teacher, and they'll flunk you faster than you can say Constantinople.")

It's not just lengthy articles, but short blurbs too. I remember seeing in an old 2nd Ed PHB, the description of the Druid stated that they were based on priests of ancient Germanic tribes.

...

:smallsigh:

NEO|Phyte
2008-12-01, 05:20 PM
Also, flatfooted and stuff only removes your Dex BONUS to AC, penalties still apply.

monty
2008-12-01, 05:23 PM
Hrmm. However, on those monsters, their Flat footed AC dosn't change at all compared to their regular. however, some quick math says that they keep that penalty even when flat-footed.

So if you jump out of some bushes, that acrobat-rogue can't try to avoid you, but the clumsy wizard is still capable of falling in the path of your sword.


Sometimes you can’t use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you can’t react to a blow, you can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC. (If you don’t have a Dexterity bonus, nothing happens.)

Problem solved.

holywhippet
2008-12-01, 07:12 PM
Problem solved.

How so? It just doesn't make sense. Having poor DEX shouldn't make you easier to hit when you aren't able to react. It sort of makes sense in regular combat since you are slower to react and thus can't evade blows better. But if you are just standing there, twiddling your thumbs and oblivious to the rogue about to stab you in the kidneys your poor DEX shouldn't be an issue.

monty
2008-12-01, 07:15 PM
How so? It just doesn't make sense. Having poor DEX shouldn't make you easier to hit when you aren't able to react. It sort of makes sense in regular combat since you are slower to react and thus can't evade blows better. But if you are just standing there, twiddling your thumbs and oblivious to the rogue about to stab you in the kidneys your poor DEX shouldn't be an issue.

The "problem" I was referring to was in the first part of BRC's post. I didn't say it made sense, just that it was in the rules.

RebelRogue
2008-12-01, 07:32 PM
A Dexterity penalty to AC always applies. It's pretty simple and makes perfect sense within the frame of the rules, actually.

monty
2008-12-01, 07:36 PM
A Dexterity penalty to AC always applies. It's pretty simple and makes perfect sense within the frame of the rules, actually.

From a balance aspect, certainly. It's just not very realistic, which is the point of this thread.

Kris Strife
2008-12-01, 07:52 PM
I just want to say I love reading this thread's title, followed by any other title.

Oslecamo
2008-12-01, 07:53 PM
From a balance aspect, certainly. It's just not very realistic, which is the point of this thread.

Why not? It's always easier to do things wrong than right in real life.

Neek
2008-12-01, 08:01 PM
I've always been entertained by the lack of common sense in some of the rules. They're funny, but we all know no sane DM would allow anything of this sort. It's become a common trope in our games regarding the creating a quarterstaff as a free action (which is funnier, because our DM has a walking stick he made, at his side. He can make a quarterstaff as a free action! HOLY CRAP! IT WORKS IN REAL LIFE. RUN FOR THE HILLS!)


The half-dragon template interacts poorly with medium or smaller flying creatures. An adult half-dragon arrowhawk, for example, has no wings, yet can fly.

It is medium, so does not have wings. Yet the template never removes its fly speed.

RAW suggests that a medium-sized flying creature doesn't gain wings. RAW doesn't state a medium-sized flying creature lose wings, either. Which then means a half-dragon dire bat has four wings... which is even weirder.


And they don't know how economy works, since a trench digger and a lawyer with the same ranks in their respective professions get just as much money on average.

Of course, a trench digger doesn't actually dig trenches, nor a lawyer laws about. You need no kitchen to make a Profession (Cook) check, so that any cooking you do uses ingredients ex nihil. A Profession (Miller) can make flour with no grain... wait... who the hell screwed up the .raw files?[/df]

Also, apparently, RAW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#flatFooted) states that you don't apply any Dex bonus. Which means having a bad Dex means your clumsy, and your clumsiness works to your disadvantage--you're as likely to accidentally fall onto someone sword's, whether you know it's there or not. People who are agile are less likely to accidentally fall onto swords, even if caught unawares. I think that's acceptable.

Innis Cabal
2008-12-01, 08:03 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you apply Dex penalties to AC at all.

You sure do. And Init as well.

The Minx
2008-12-02, 01:17 AM
Wizards don't know anything about the space necessary for hosting parties. At least as far as Mage's Magnificent Mansion is concerned. Here's the description from the SRD:


Mage’s Magnificent Mansion
Conjuration (Creation)

Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Extradimensional mansion, up to three 10-ft. cubes/level (S)
Duration: 2 hours/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You conjure up an extradimensional dwelling that has a single entrance on the plane from which the spell was cast. The entry point looks like a faint shimmering in the air that is 4 feet wide and 8 feet high. Only those you designate may enter the mansion, and the portal is shut and made invisible behind you when you enter. You may open it again from your own side at will. Once observers have passed beyond the entrance, they are in a magnificent foyer with numerous chambers beyond. The atmosphere is clean, fresh, and warm.

You can create any floor plan you desire to the limit of the spell’s effect. The place is furnished and contains sufficient foodstuffs to serve a nine-course banquet to a dozen people per caster level. A staff of near-transparent servants (as many as two per caster level), liveried and obedient, wait upon all who enter. The servants function as unseen servant spells except that they are visible and can go anywhere in the mansion.

Since the place can be entered only through its special portal, outside conditions do not affect the mansion, nor do conditions inside it pass to the plane beyond.

Focus:
A miniature portal carved from ivory, a small piece of polished marble, and a tiny silver spoon (each item worth 5 gp).

Sounds OK, right? Well, until you start to draw up that floor plan. You get three 10 ft. cubes per level. This means that a 20th level wizard gets sixty 10 ft. cubes. Thus, with a 10 ft. ceiling space, you get 6000 square feet, which sounds very nice indeed.

But in this space there is supposedly room for a 9 course banquet for as many dozens of people as the caster has levels, i.e. enough for 240 people. This leaves 25 square feet per guest, not counting the food storage, the tables or the service staff of 40. AND you need space for the "numerous chambers beyond".

MMM is one of my all time favorite spells. But someone needs to recheck the math for this design...

RPGuru1331
2008-12-02, 01:40 AM
Wizards don't know anything about the space necessary for hosting parties. At least as far as Mage's Magnificent Mansion is concerned. Here's the description from the SRD:



Sounds OK, right? Well, until you start to draw up that floor plan. You get three 10 ft. cubes per level. This means that a 20th level wizard gets sixty 10 ft. cubes. Thus, with a 10 ft. ceiling space, you get 6000 square feet, which sounds very nice indeed.

But in this space there is supposedly room for a 9 course banquet for as many dozens of people as the caster has levels, i.e. enough for 240 people. This leaves 25 square feet per guest, not counting the food storage, the tables or the service staff of 40. AND you need space for the "numerous chambers beyond".

MMM is one of my all time favorite spells. But someone needs to recheck the math for this design...

And it can't be much of a mansion if it's only 10 foot high, really.

Kizara
2008-12-02, 02:05 AM
And it can't be much of a mansion if it's only 10 foot high, really.

On a serious note, for someone not up to speed on housing layouts and such, what would you suggest would be a more appropriate amount of space generated to fulfill the intent of this spell?

The Minx
2008-12-02, 02:07 AM
And it can't be much of a mansion if it's only 10 foot high, really.

Yeah, I was being as generous as possible with the floorspace, after all. A 10 ft. ceiling is nothing to write home about.

Compare this with the Secure Shelter:


The secure shelter contains rude furnishings —eight bunks, a trestle table, eight stools, and a writing desk.

A 20 ft. square structure has 400 square feet of area. This means 50 square feet per guest (since there are 8 bunks) before you count the table and desk. It is supposed to be a humble cottage, and so I guess it is natural that it is a mite crowded.

Still, its pretty amusing that each person gets more floorspace in the cottage than in the mansion. :smallbiggrin:


On a serious note, for someone not up to speed on housing layouts and such, what would you suggest would be a more appropriate amount of space generated to fulfill the intent of this spell?

You could start out with a 30 ft. cube (S) per caster level for the banquet hall alone. This gives 75 square feet per guest plus an appropriately very high ceiling for such a large room. Then you can start deciding whether you want sleeping space for all of those people, and anything else the spell is supposed to accomplish.

Yukitsu
2008-12-02, 02:07 AM
Sounds OK, right? Well, until you start to draw up that floor plan. You get three 10 ft. cubes per level. This means that a 20th level wizard gets sixty 10 ft. cubes. Thus, with a 10 ft. ceiling space, you get 6000 square feet, which sounds very nice indeed.

But in this space there is supposedly room for a 9 course banquet for as many dozens of people as the caster has levels, i.e. enough for 240 people. This leaves 25 square feet per guest, not counting the food storage, the tables or the service staff of 40. AND you need space for the "numerous chambers beyond".

MMM is one of my all time favorite spells. But someone needs to recheck the math for this design...

I think the spell uses extra dimensional space for the 40 inviso butlers, the food and other amenities.

The Minx
2008-12-02, 02:11 AM
I think the spell uses extra dimensional space for the 40 inviso butlers, the food and other amenities.

You still only have 25 square feet per dinner guest, and that's before you get the "numerous chambers beyond".

EDIT: besides, the MMM itself is supposed to be an extradimensional space. >.<

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-02, 02:15 AM
You still only have 25 square feet per dinner guest, and that's before you get the "numerous chambers beyond".

EDIT: besides, the MMM itself is supposed to be an extradimensional space. >.<Remember, people, 25' per dinner guest really means that each guest gets a 5' square. Stick out your arms. That's how much space you get. Yeah. That should be a fun dinner.

The Minx
2008-12-02, 02:25 AM
Remember, people, 25' per dinner guest really means that each guest gets a 5' square. Stick out your arms. That's how much space you get. Yeah. That should be a fun dinner.

Minus the extra chambers. And with 240 people in the room. And that's with the 10 ft. ceiling as RPGuru1331 pointed out.

Try mapping that with a 5 ft. square grid map for miniature use. Each of the 240 people gets exactly one square on the map... heh. :smallsmile:

Prowl
2008-12-02, 02:32 AM
get 658962478854331 peasants in a line and have them all ready an action of 'pass the pig' then hand one end a pig. by RAW that pig will travel at x * 5fps where x is the number of peasants, in a swift action, which would cause massive impact damage to the pig and whatever it hits. the Pixie Marble Death ray is the same concept.

It may be totally ridiculous, but I had a great laugh imagining it in action.

RPGuru1331
2008-12-02, 02:35 AM
On a serious note, for someone not up to speed on housing layouts and such, what would you suggest would be a more appropriate amount of space generated to fulfill the intent of this spell?

I spent thanksgiving in... oh, I'd say about 10000 square foot (Counting both floors) house. And it's just a big house, not a mansion. I figure you triple that, add at least a floor, we're getting somewhere.

Roderick_BR
2008-12-02, 11:45 AM
How so? It just doesn't make sense. Having poor DEX shouldn't make you easier to hit when you aren't able to react. It sort of makes sense in regular combat since you are slower to react and thus can't evade blows better. But if you are just standing there, twiddling your thumbs and oblivious to the rogue about to stab you in the kidneys your poor DEX shouldn't be an issue.
If you are clunsier, you are an easier target. If you were ABSOLUTELY immobile (sleeping, for example, or simply paralyzed) then you are considered with DEX 0, that is a -5 to your AC for someone to attack you in a small frame time.
Anything above DEX 0 is still good, it only stops counting above DEX 10 when flatfooted.

bosssmiley
2008-12-02, 12:35 PM
I just want to say I love reading this thread's title, followed by any other title.

Thread won. :smallbiggrin:

Cigars and internets for this gentleman.

Zeful
2008-12-02, 01:38 PM
I spent thanksgiving in... oh, I'd say about 10000 square foot (Counting both floors) house. And it's just a big house, not a mansion. I figure you triple that, add at least a floor, we're getting somewhere.

I was thinking 1,000sq. ft per CL per floor and they get a floor every five levels.
Would make 20th level version 20,000sqft per floor and four floors for a 80,000sp. ft mansion