Bored of Ur Priest/Mystic Theruge - How about a Good Equivalent?

[RMS Oceanic]

Far and away, one of the most effective ways to abuse the Ur Priest is to go Wizard 9/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theruge 8/Wizard 2 - Giving you level nine arcane and divine spells by level 19.

Of course, there are two main problems with this. Firstly, you have to be of evil alignment, which restricts some options for role-playing. The bigger problem is role-playing based: if the DM is following the fluff correctly, you have pretty much painted a gigantic target on yourself for every God - Good, Bad and Ugly - to try and kill you.

Want the versitility without the Divine Manhunt? In that case, it's fitting that the Ur Priest debuted in Book of Vile Darkness, for my alternative class appears in its counterpart Book of Exalted Deeds: The Apostle of Peace.

This has downsides as well, of course: while you can enter AoP 3 levels earlier than UP as a Wizard/Sorceror, all your feats are taken up with Exalted Feats, including the Vows of Peace, Nonviolence and Poverty, meaning you can't use magic items to bolster your spellcasting. A slightly larger problem is that your divine spells are limited to healing, utility and defensive spells. Your arcane side can pick up the slack somewhat, but those Vows can certainly get in the way of being offensive. If you're not that kind of wizard, fine, but this path is not an easy one for the blaster mage.

Anyone else ever tried this build? Is there another ten-levels-of-divine-spellcasting prestige class that a wizard could enter with minimal trouble?

[Stupendous_Man]

Ur priest doesn't *have* to be non-good. Mechanics wise, you could just homebrew a PrC that worships, say, a dead god and draws that god's remaining power.

Or someone that just draws ambient magical power from the universe to cast.

[hamishspence]

drawing ambient magical power- thats a cleric of a principle, isn't it?

[Stupendous_Man]

drawing ambient magical power- thats a cleric of a principle, isn't it?

Principally, yes.

[Yukitsu]

Ur priests that turn good don't lose their spells and abilities, IIRC.

[RMS Oceanic]

True, but they're still siphoning power from the Gods, so they're still a magnet for all trouble divine-related.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Adaptation: This prestige class is written to describe
characters who steal divine power from the gods and use it
themselves. It’s also a good choice, however, for ex-clerics of
gods who’ve somehow lost their connection to their deity
(because the deity died, disappeared, or faded from existence
because he had too few worshipers). Secret societies
of ur-priests could exist for the express purpose of elevating
(or reelevating) someone or something to godhood.
Not necessarily evil.

[Yukitsu]

True, but they're still siphoning power from the Gods, so they're still a magnet for all trouble divine-related.

Just play the character such that they believe that gods are aloof uncaring entities with the power to help, who don't, and that mortal man can help one another far more than the gods can help. This way, when the divine servants question you, you can respond by saying "Oh sure, you come to deal with me because I'm taking the crumbs that fall from your gods overfed gullet, but you don't come to save the burning orphanages. Real benevolent God you follow." before unleashing your holy wraith on it.

[Keld Denar]

Divine Crusader might work....the BAB requirements are really steep though.

Wizard6 has a BAB of 3
Fighter1 makes it 4
Spellsword1 makes it 5
Abjurant Champ2 makes it 7
Divine Crusader1 adds divine casting with 1 domain.
Contemplative1 adds a 2nd domain
Mystic Theurge8

Loses 3 wizard levels so at level 20, you would just get your 1st couple 9th level spells. Casts divine spells from 2 domains. Get the 2 that give you what you want.

Competition gives you Divine Power and Righteous Might...

[Jack_Simth]

Far and away, one of the most effective ways to abuse the Ur Priest is to go Wizard 9/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theruge 8/Wizard 2 - Giving you level nine arcane and divine spells by level 19.

Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Full Advancement Arcane PrC of Choice-4 is even better - same final casting, but the trick being that it gets 9th level Divine casting much sooner.


Of course, there are two main problems with this. Firstly, you have to be of evil alignment, which restricts some options for role-playing. The bigger problem is role-playing based: if the DM is following the fluff correctly, you have pretty much painted a gigantic target on yourself for every God - Good, Bad and Ugly - to try and kill you.

Want the versitility without the Divine Manhunt? In that case, it's fitting that the Ur Priest debuted in Book of Vile Darkness, for my alternative class appears in its counterpart Book of Exalted Deeds: The Apostle of Peace.

This has downsides as well, of course: while you can enter AoP 3 levels earlier than UP as a Wizard/Sorceror, all your feats are taken up with Exalted Feats, including the Vows of Peace, Nonviolence and Poverty, meaning you can't use magic items to bolster your spellcasting. A slightly larger problem is that your divine spells are limited to healing, utility and defensive spells. Your arcane side can pick up the slack somewhat, but those Vows can certainly get in the way of being offensive. If you're not that kind of wizard, fine, but this path is not an easy one for the blaster mage.

It doesn't really eat up all your feats - the Vow of Poverty gives bonus Exalted feats - and guess what the vows of Peace and Nonviolence happen to be?

But yeah, Vow of Poverty is VERY painful for a Wizard, and moderately so for a Sorcerer. The Psion, on the other hand....


Anyone else ever tried this build? Is there another ten-levels-of-divine-spellcasting prestige class that a wizard could enter with minimal trouble?
Well, if you can convince your DM that Text Trumps Table in the case of the Rainbow Servant (so that it's full casting, rather than 6/10ths casting) then the Warmage (or Beguiler)-6/Rainbow Servant-10/Archmage-4 is very, very tasty once you hit the capstone (spontaneous casting of the entire cleric list).

[Lycar]

Just play the character such that they believe that gods are aloof uncaring entities with the power to help, who don't, and that mortal man can help one another far more than the gods can help. This way, when the divine servants question you, you can respond by saying "Oh sure, you come to deal with me because I'm taking the crumbs that fall from your gods overfed gullet, but you don't come to save the burning orphanages. Real benevolent God you follow." before unleashing your holy wraith on it.

Uhm... aren't undead always evil. :smallconfused:

Just kidding.

Seriously, if you want something like the Ur-Priest, without all the inbuilt hassle, ask your GMa bout, work something out, play and have fun.

However, the above mentioned character could very well still be evil.

Why? Well, you can be doing good things for all the wrong reasons. If in your GM's world(view) stealing from the gods is, by definition, an act of evil, you are still evil, no matter how many 'good' deeds you do, if you are an Ur-Priest.

But let's not turn this into an alignement thread.

Back to the topic: A peaceful Theurge certainly should be an interesting character to play. However, it should be up to your fellow party members to find ways to utilize your non-violent magics for violent things. Your job should be to teach them the way of enlightment. :smallcool:

Lycar

[Yukitsu]

Uhm... aren't undead always evil. :smallconfused:


Nah. You need to get a deathless wraith. To unleash. :smalleek:

[Jack_Simth]

Uhm... aren't undead always evil. :smallconfused:

Wraith's are, although the Ghost (which can be readily mistaken for a Wraith, as they can pick up many of the same abilities) have no alignment restrictions at all.

[Keld Denar]

Gah, no one has any comments on my Divine Crusader triple threat?

Come on people!!@!@!#!@$

[Collin152]

Wraith's are, although the Ghost (which can be readily mistaken for a Wraith, as they can pick up many of the same abilities) have no alignment restrictions at all.

And, this is purely from memory, but can't Mummy's be non-evil, too?

[Jack_Simth]

And, this is purely from memory, but can't Mummy's be non-evil, too?
They're on the "usually" list. So while they can be non-evil, that's not the majority.

[Yukitsu]

And, this is purely from memory, but can't Mummy's be non-evil, too?

Undying councelor's are sentient mummies that are usually good.

[SadisticFishing]

One of my players once played this.

Illumian Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Monk 2/Apostle of Peace 2/Mystic Theurge 10.

It worked beautifully, until my other players decided they hated not killing things. Note that that second Monk level is at the end.

Max out Wisdom and Charisma. You are unkillable and have TONS of spells - though no level 9 Arcane, 7 is purty good.

[Blood_Lord]

You wanted a comment?


Divine Crusader might work....the BAB requirements are really steep though.

Wizard6 has a BAB of 3
Fighter1 makes it 4
Spellsword1 makes it 5
Abjurant Champ2 makes it 7
Divine Crusader1 adds divine casting with 1 domain.
Contemplative1 adds a 2nd domain
Mystic Theurge8

Loses 3 wizard levels so at level 20, you would just get your 1st couple 9th level spells. Casts divine spells from 2 domains. Get the 2 that give you what you want.

Competition gives you Divine Power and Righteous Might...

Or, better yet, you could be a Wizard 4/Racial Paragon 3(Human or Elf)/Spellsword 1/AC 2/Divine Crusader 1/Contemplative 1/Mystic Theurge 8

You'd be one higher level in Wizard casting, you'd have higher stats, and bonus abilities.

Also, personally I'd choose domains that don't aim for Gishdom, since that's easier to acquire in a lot of ways.

[Thurbane]

Any more thoughts on the OPs idea about Apostle of Peace? :smalltongue:

[Prak]

{Scrubbed}

[Heliomance]

Oh, for goodness sake. We had a massive thread on Ur-Priests and whether the gods were out for their blood a while back, go look the thread up. Don't turn this one into it.

Also, VoP is not remotely broken. The CharOp boards did an in-depth study of it, and found that i was possible to replicate all the effects of VoP with the items you could buy with WBL at each level. The character without VoP is also a lot more flexible in what effects they can get.

[Keld Denar]

Also, personally I'd choose domains that don't aim for Gishdom, since that's easier to acquire in a lot of ways.

Which domains do you think would be best? Most of the time, a cleric takes domains to get wizard spells. This isn't the case, since you have full wizard casting. Maybe like...the good domain to get Holy Word, or the Healing domain to get Heal and Greater Restoration? I dunno, tough call.

[zaei]

Note that VoPoverty disallows you the use of a holy symbol. So you basically end up as a gimped wizard who can only cast spells with inexpensive material components.

Ouch.

[monty]

Note that VoPoverty disallows you the use of a holy symbol. So you basically end up as a gimped wizard who can only cast spells with inexpensive material components.

Ouch.

Show me where it says your holy symbol has to cost money. It never states that you have to use one of the listed items.

[zaei]

Show me where it says your holy symbol has to cost money. It never states that you have to use one of the listed items.

VoPoverty provides an exhaustive list of items that you may own. Holy Symbol is not on the list.

[Prak]

well, to be fair, it depends upon what your holy symbol is.

For example, you could play a male cleric of Priapus, and then you just need to unzip...

[jcsw]

Which domains do you think would be best? Most of the time, a cleric takes domains to get wizard spells. This isn't the case, since you have full wizard casting. Maybe like...the good domain to get Holy Word, or the Healing domain to get Heal and Greater Restoration? I dunno, tough call.

You could always select them for the domain abilities. Such as Mysticism for a mini-divine grace.

[Lycar]

well, to be fair, it depends upon what your holy symbol is.

For example, you could play a male cleric of Priapus, and then you just need to unzip...

... wouldn't that be considered blasphemy, unless you could match your patron deitie's prodigious.. er.. proportions? :smallbiggrin:

... and don't even get us started on the possible range of reaction from the opposition...

... although I consider it fair use in a 'silly' game. May paralyse the opposition for a round. With laughter. :smalltongue:

And yes, there was a pretty exhaustive discussion about Ur-Priest fluff recently.

However there is one thing I'd like to adress:

but you forget, D&D is a game about breaking into someone's house, killing them and taking their ****.

D&D is what you and your fellow players make of it. That it gets played a lot that way doen't mean you can't play different ways. Sometimes you just want to have fun and kick differently-coloured/textured behinds. Sometimes you want to take up the challenge if you can actually make the world a better place, Ghandi-style.

Or maybe A-Team style. :smalltongue:


Lycar

[hamishspence]

the cheap way was carving a symbol into your hand- scar in shape of symbol.


Also Complete Champion has a Summon Holy Symbol for clerics- no material component cost.

[fractic]

... the abyss has infinite space on infinite layers, this is, to use the word again, infinitely bigger than any other plane, even Celestia is only 7(infinity), and bytopia is 2(infinite), and so on, while the planes of evil are Hell, 9(infinite), carcerai, 6(infinite), Hades, 3(infinite), Gehenna, 4(infinite), Acheron, 4(infinite), and the Abyss, INFINITY SQUARED!

Infinity doesn't work that way.

Since we are trying to count space let's put a 5ft*5ft*5ft cubical grid on all of those planar layers. We can only squeeze a limited number of creatures in each of those cubes after all. Now for most layers this would give a Z^3 grid or at least a Z^2*(some finite interval). Eitherway it's countably infinite.

The layers of the abyss are numbered so they are a countable number of abbysal layers aswell. Now the funny thing is that countable infinity squared is still countably infinite so the abyss is exactly as infinite as every other infinite plane.

[hamishspence]

some of the planes are only infinite, in the sens that they have infinite unusable space around them. The Nine hells, for example, all have finite width and depth, in Fiendish Codex 2.

[Keld Denar]

I thought the Abyss had 666 layers? Huh..

Anyone else have any good ideas for domains for my Wizard/Divine Crusader build? Something to give you a more clericy feel from 1-9th level spells. Should NOT be one that overlaps with wizard casting (like Travel, Magic, or Force).

[Mephit]

The Healing Domain, perhaps? Nothing says "I'm a Cleric!" better than a Cure Serious Wounds. :smallsmile:

Alternatively, the Glory Domain also gives a good divine feeling to your character. It's got a useless power for you, though.

[zaei]

well, to be fair, it depends upon what your holy symbol is.

For example, you could play a male cleric of Priapus, and then you just need to unzip...

Oh, you took a Vow of Poverty? No holy symbol for you, here's a knife!

Gahhhhh =]

[playswithfire]

I only sort of skimmed this thread, so forgive me if I missed a suggestion for something like this, but I'm calling it

Choirboy of Peace


1 bard feat[Sacred Vow]
flaw[Vow of Poverty]
exalted[Vow of Non-Violence]
2 bard exalted[Vow of Peace]
3 bard feat
4 bard exalted[Intuitive Attack]
5 bard
6 bard feat,exalted
7 bard
8 apostle of peace exalted
9 crusader feat[Song of the White Raven]
10 apostle of peace exalted[Words of Creation]
11 sublime chord
12 sublime chord feat,exalted
13 mystic theurge
14 mystic theurge exalted
15 mystic theurge feat
16 mystic theurge exalted
17 mystic theurge
18 mystic theurge feat
exalted
19 mystic theurge
20 mystic theurge exalted

EDIT: updated dropping in that Crusader level and the feats that follow logically from it
EDIT2: forgot the 13 ranks of skills needed for sublime chord; shifted crusader earlier; I'll admit I haven't checked skill lists, so I might need to move levels around again and/or play a human with Able Learner

BAB:12
Base Saves:9/10/17
Initiator level:3rd level maneuvers at IL 10
Arcane casting: 9th level spells at CL 17
Divine casting: 9th level spells at CL 14
option to raise caster levels with Song of arcane power

8 uses of bardic music/day; notable options being

inspire courage +4 as a swift action
raise caster level by up to 4 as a move action


no multiclass penalties with anything with favored class:Any or Bard

Comments and Criticisms welcome

[monty]

VoPoverty provides an exhaustive list of items that you may own. Holy Symbol is not on the list.

Holy symbol doesn't need to be an item. A tattoo, for example, is not an item.

[Stupendous_Man]

"My deity's holy symbol is a finger. Care to guess which one?"

[Prak]

Unfortunately...


well, I was going to say that doesn't work as the symbol of a good god, but now I have visions of Cuthbert devotees being Angry Marines...