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LibraryOgre
2008-11-30, 02:03 AM
A slightly different take on the two current threads:

What have you had people playing a Paladin do that either should've caused them to fall, or did cause them to fall in a case of "Well, duh. Yeah, that's going to get you kicked out of the Boy Scouts."

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-30, 02:20 AM
Not exactly a Paladin falling, but I was in a game starting at the higher levels and someone made an Emissary of Barachiel. First session he tried using his Conversion ability to force a village of commoners to good alignment, and the DM said that was an evil act because he was tyrannically robbing them of their free will, and he permanently lost his exalted status.

Kris Strife
2008-11-30, 02:28 AM
So using his powers as they were meant to made him fall? Isnt that like making a paladin fall for using Smite Evil on a lich who detects as evil?

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-30, 02:31 AM
Not exactly a Paladin falling, but I was in a game starting at the higher levels and someone made an Emissary of Barachiel. First session he tried using his Conversion ability to force a village of commoners to good alignment, and the DM said that was an evil act because he was tyrannically robbing them of their free will, and he permanently lost his exalted status.

Help, Help, I'm being oppressed!

Dhavaer
2008-11-30, 02:32 AM
Help, Help, I'm being oppressed!

I'd say that we're now seeing the violence inherent in the system, but I don't think Conversion does any damage.

Kris Strife
2008-11-30, 02:33 AM
Help, Help, I'm being oppressed!

But there was no violence in the system!

Bloody ninjas. actually, conversion deals nonlethal damage to the user

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-30, 02:34 AM
But there was no violence in the system!

There were bloody peasants.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-30, 02:35 AM
I agree that he was robbing the Commoners of their free will, but he would have been doing that regardless of who he used in on or why he used it, so it seems odd that he would be classed as evil for using that ability.

FMArthur
2008-11-30, 02:37 AM
There was a paladin in one of my older parties who tried to play the class like a barbarian. He lasted a surprisingly long time until he killed a person who was clearly a captive of the beasts we were slaying (she was a healer stuck in a cage with bound wrists). I believe the rationale was quite ridiculous; something along the lines of trying to pre-empt possible betrayal. Our DM was just trying to help us out - Pala-barian wouldn't heal those of us who didn't match his alignment and it had become a problem. He walked such a fine line the whole time, come to think of it, and didn't seem to notice.

Kris Strife
2008-11-30, 02:40 AM
I agree that he was robbing the Commoners of their free will, but he would have been doing that regardless of who he used in on or why he used it, so it seems odd that he would be classed as evil for using that ability.

Because the DM felt like being a rooster biter.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-30, 02:43 AM
That's probably right, Kris. Were you able to revive the Healer, FMArthur? I don't really see how he lasted that long, unless the DM thought he was a non-good Paladin variant. Also, what type of beasts were you fighting?

FMArthur
2008-11-30, 02:53 AM
That's probably right, Kris. Were you able to revive the Healer, FMArthur? I don't really see how he lasted that long, unless the DM thought he was a non-good Paladin variant. Also, what type of beasts were you fighting?

No, the healer died permanently and we didn't get another; DM decided curative potions were safer/easier to give to us. I don't specifically remember what kind of beasts we were fighting, since it was a number of years ago. I believe they were described as evil 'ape-men' and they'd been terrorizing a small village. They probably weren't even from a book, since that DM is rather fond of 'winging it'. If I were DMing, the paladin would have fallen much sooner after a warning or two, but this DM was very lenient about it.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-30, 02:58 AM
Thanks for telling me. (Coincidentally, I made a race of Apefolk a while back: http://forum.mydndgame.com/index.php/topic,191.msg4006.html#msg4006 ). I personally wouldn't make a Paladin fall for commiting an evil act if they were doing it to prevent something that would result in more death and suffering then their evil act would, but I'd have just given him 1 warning before making him fall if he was as bad as he sounded.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-30, 03:01 AM
There was a paladin in one of my older parties who tried to play the class like a barbarian. He lasted a surprisingly long time until he killed a person who was clearly a captive of the beasts we were slaying (she was a healer stuck in a cage with bound wrists). I believe the rationale was quite ridiculous; something along the lines of trying to pre-empt possible betrayal. Our DM was just trying to help us out - Pala-barian wouldn't heal those of us who didn't match his alignment and it had become a problem. He walked such a fine line the whole time, come to think of it, and didn't seem to notice.
And now do we see the violence inherent in the system.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-30, 03:03 AM
Which violence do you mean, Stupendous_Man? I know that D&D has a lot of combat, but there are a lot of occasions where violence isn't necessary (or even ideal).

Mastikator
2008-11-30, 03:07 AM
So using his powers as they were meant to made him fall? Isnt that like making a paladin fall for using Smite Evil on a lich who detects as evil?

Just going "Evil? CHAAAAARGE!!!" is at least an act of chaos. Unless the lich is like "blarg, I will kill you".

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-30, 03:09 AM
I would have thought that trying to kill an evil undead spellcaster would class as a good act (especially since the fact that they were willing to become a lich suggests that they have plans to make people suffer like G did for a long time). If the lich registered as good, I'd agree with you.

Mastikator
2008-11-30, 03:12 AM
A paladin is also lawful. Being non-lawful means fallen.

Dragor
2008-11-30, 03:13 AM
My DM decided it was an Evil act when my Dwarf, upon hearing that the DM's Half-Elf would lead us to safety, said "Bah, I don't trust these half-breeds."

@ Tempest: I caught the reference. :smallcool:

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-30, 03:16 AM
I agree that racism is definitly evil. How would charging at an evil person who is likely to be a threat chaotic, though?

(I'm pleased someone got that; I love that figure of speech.:smallbiggrin:)

Nerd-o-rama
2008-11-30, 03:19 AM
Do we really need three threads on the same topic (one that really annoys me, is why I bother saying anything). Really?

Kris Strife
2008-11-30, 03:23 AM
Why yes. Yes we do. Any more questions or will that be all?

FMArthur
2008-11-30, 03:32 AM
Thanks for telling me. (Coincidentally, I made a race of Apefolk a while back: http://forum.mydndgame.com/index.php/topic,191.msg4006.html#msg4006 ). I personally wouldn't make a Paladin fall for commiting an evil act if they were doing it to prevent something that would result in more death and suffering then their evil act would, but I'd have just given him 1 warning before making him fall if he was as bad as he sounded.

There was no betrayal even hinted at, with no precedent in the campaign for that sort of thing. Preventing the vague imagined possibility of a healer betraying us did not outweigh the evilness of the deed, unfortunately. I actually just brought it up with the then-DM a few minutes ago, and he said there were no plans for anything but self-sacrifice on the healer's end. He's genuinely baffled as to how a healer could even pull a betrayal off, let alone want to do it. His warnings, in retrospect, were probably too subtle for the paladin player to grasp. He just asked "sorry, what class are you, again?" in place of warnings, to which he recieved increasingly irate "I'm a PALADIN" replies. Some of my funniest D&D memories come from that player's serious attempts at role-playing.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-30, 03:35 AM
I know there wasn't any evil there (the part after "I personally wouldn't" was refering to the general idea of Paladins falling rather then being relevant to the Palarian). Was the Healer using the class of the same name, or was she a Cleric who focussed on healing?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-30, 05:35 AM
So using his powers as they were meant to made him fall? Isnt that like making a paladin fall for using Smite Evil on a lich who detects as evil?

He'd specifically been warned when making the character that trying to convert people who are just minding their own business and living happy, peaceful lives isn't something that he should be trying to use that ability on, regardless of their actual alignments.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-30, 05:39 AM
That makes a lot more sense. What were the Commoner's original alignments anyway?

Chineselegolas
2008-11-30, 05:52 AM
One of my acquaintances at Uni played a Paladin so far different from the normal holier than though.
He followed his god. Any other god was wrong and deserved to die, and as he worshiped the god of his race all other races had to die. And females were irrelevant (Yes, it was a female sorcerer that got him in the end)
Was an excuse for racial, religious and sexual bigotry.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-30, 05:55 AM
Why didn't he fall? He sounds like he should have never been able to take levels in Paladin in the first place (unless he was an evil variant).

Chineselegolas
2008-11-30, 06:00 AM
Paladins power is granted by their god, correct?
There is nothing that prevents a paladin from following an evil god (Unlike a cleric)
Don't believe it was an evil god but...

He followed the laws of his god to the letter (And thus technically lawful), and didn't do evil. Other than the bigotry. Didn't steal, didn't kill people unless they actively were against his god, would help fellow followers with pretty much anything.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-30, 06:03 AM
Thanks for telling me (I always tend to class bigotry as evil, which is why I'd say he should have fell immedietly).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-30, 06:03 AM
The commoners were probably mostly Neutral or possibly Good. Just the act of trying to subvert them to his will was enough in that DM's eyes, though he was probably just looking for an excuse.


Sounds like he must have worshiped Zarus (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a), which actually makes a good Paladin of Tyranny or especially a good melee Cleric (War domain + Greatsword).

RebelRogue
2008-11-30, 06:23 AM
Not exactly a Paladin falling, but I was in a game starting at the higher levels and someone made an Emissary of Barachiel. First session he tried using his Conversion ability to force a village of commoners to good alignment, and the DM said that was an evil act because he was tyrannically robbing them of their free will, and he permanently lost his exalted status.
It's the Clockwork Orange dilemma in a nutshell. However, with a PrC desgined for just that, making him fall makes no sense.

only1doug
2008-11-30, 06:55 AM
He just asked "sorry, what class are you, again?" in place of warnings, to which he recieved increasingly irate "I'm a PALADIN" replies. Some of my funniest D&D memories come from that player's serious attempts at role-playing.

No, that's the class you were, what class are you now? a fighter without the bonus feats.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-30, 07:32 AM
It's the Clockwork Orange dilemma in a nutshell. However, with a PrC desgined for just that, making him fall makes no sense.

If he'd used it on a village of Orcs who would otherwise have ended up a hostile threat to peaceful communities, he would have been fine. The fact that he used it on a bunch of already peaceful villagers for no reason other than to force the non-good ones to a good alignment is what made him fall.

Riffington
2008-11-30, 08:24 AM
It's the Clockwork Orange dilemma in a nutshell. However, with a PrC desgined for just that, making him fall makes no sense.

Really the issue was allowing the PrC.
A very plausible argument can be made that robbing all those people of free will is evil. If the DM buys this argument, she shouldn't allow the PrC, or should change its powers somewhat.

Serenity
2008-11-30, 09:29 AM
Actually there's plenty that keeps a paladin from following an evil god. Like the fact that all Paladins must be Lawful Good, and must conduct themselves honorably and non-evilly to avoid a fall. Per 3.5 RAW, a paladin doesn't get his power from a god, he gets them from the essence of Law and Good, and even in FR, where they do get power from a god, it has to be from LG or LN--or in one case, CG god.

KeresM
2008-11-30, 11:59 AM
Our party had been tracking a bad guy for about two years, following a trail of bloodshed. We are talking squashed babies, headless puppies, angels disemboweled level bloodshed. We'd lost several party members to this guy, folks that had been much loved by other party members and due to the bad guy's brand of evil, were unraisable by any means available to us.

Finally we catch the guy. The paladin and the home-brewed fighter type (essentially a swordsage, but that book hadn't been written yet) had the guy. He makes eye contact with the paladin, knowing the paladin to have a strict code of honor, throws his weapon down and says to the paladin 'I surrender, take me to your courts'.

To our shock, the next words we hear from the player of the paladin was 'he takes a step forward and uses his last smite evil'. Smashes the guy's head in. Turns and tells the speechless fighter, 'standing aside while you acted would have been the greater dishonor. The gods may judge me as they will, but I could not let you take the fall for me.' Sheathes his sword, and walks away.

Awesome fall. The redemption story-arc that followed was also great. The pally became a pally again, and the previously chaotic neutral fighter-type ended up neutral good.

Yukitsu
2008-11-30, 12:12 PM
If he'd used it on a village of Orcs who would otherwise have ended up a hostile threat to peaceful communities, he would have been fine. The fact that he used it on a bunch of already peaceful villagers for no reason other than to force the non-good ones to a good alignment is what made him fall.

Alignment isn't free will.

Vagnarok
2008-11-30, 12:13 PM
Our party had been tracking a bad guy for about two years, following a trail of bloodshed. We are talking squashed babies, headless puppies, angels disemboweled level bloodshed. We'd lost several party members to this guy, folks that had been much loved by other party members and due to the bad guy's brand of evil, were unraisable by any means available to us.

Finally we catch the guy. The paladin and the home-brewed fighter type (essentially a swordsage, but that book hadn't been written yet) had the guy. He makes eye contact with the paladin, knowing the paladin to have a strict code of honor, throws his weapon down and says to the paladin 'I surrender, take me to your courts'.

To our shock, the next words we hear from the player of the paladin was 'he takes a step forward and uses his last smite evil'. Smashes the guy's head in. Turns and tells the speechless fighter, 'standing aside while you acted would have been the greater dishonor. The gods may judge me as they will, but I could not let you take the fall for me.' Sheathes his sword, and walks away.

Awesome fall. The redemption story-arc that followed was also great. The pally became a pally again, and the previously chaotic neutral fighter-type ended up neutral good.

Totally badass. A question: How was he able to become a pally again if he purposefully committed the act which made him fall? Did the DM change that rule from the sheer awesomeness of the fall?

Leewei
2008-11-30, 12:20 PM
He could've walked into a church of St. Cuthbert, been rapped on the knuckles, and told "Don't you ever give the vile bastards a chance to surrender again!"

The Glyphstone
2008-11-30, 12:32 PM
Totally badass. A question: How was he able to become a pally again if he purposefully committed the act which made him fall? Did the DM change that rule from the sheer awesomeness of the fall?

Paladins can still regain their powers after a willfull fall, it just costs XP for the person casting Atonement on their behalf.

hamishspence
2008-11-30, 12:35 PM
Yup. Note this was Not the case in 3.0. Nor 2nd ed. in this, only falls cause by being either genuinely unknowing, or actually magically compelled, to commit evil acts, could be atoned for at all.

When you complain about D&D alignment now, have a look at past editions.

Brauron
2008-11-30, 12:38 PM
One of my (soon-to-be-former, as he's moving out) housemates is of the "Evil is so awesome, good is dumb!" persuasion, and in a very shortlived game last year (the Dm didn't start it until shortly before the end of Spring Semester) decided he wanted to play a Paladin...a Chaotic Evil Paladin. The DM said no, I'd rather not have evil characters in my game, but if you want, I'll let you play the Chaotic Good Paladin of Freedom.

The player bullied the DM into allowing him to play a Chaotic Neutral Paladin (at which point I began to consider leaving the game, as I felt nothing good could come from this -- no pun intended).

So he's a CN Dwarf Paladin of Freedom. Who proceeds to get falling-down drunk at every opportunity, kick down the doors of random houses, urinate on everything that can't get up and walk away, and hump the legs of females of every possible humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or Giant race, all while voicing an ululation that blends elements of psychotic laughter and high-pitched screaming (a noise this housemate actually makes whenever he's excited, i.e., whenever a female character in whatever anime he's currently hooked on shows cleavage)

It's a good thing the campaign ended when it did. We all leveled up at the end of the last session (The DM was hoping to continue it this semester, but thankfully didn't) and my Human Cleric had multiclassed into Paladin. I probably would have ended up either killing his character or tried to scold/shame his character into decent behavior (which would have resulted in the player having a mood swing to whiny depression and him quitting the game "because you guys all hate me so much.").

I'm so glad he's not in the current game I'm playing in (when my current DM, who is this player's roommate, commented that he was thinking about running a game, this player commented, "Ugh, I'd never play in anything you ran" so this DM didn't invite him to play...which led to this player getting mopey and depressed that we all hate him. Oi.).

Vagnarok
2008-11-30, 12:43 PM
Yup. Note this was Not the case in 3.0. Nor 2nd ed. in this, only falls cause by being either genuinely unknowing, or actually magically compelled, to commit evil acts, could be atoned for at all.

When you complain about D&D alignment now, have a look at past editions.

Ah hah! I usually play 3.0 because I hate buying new editions of the same books (ie: I'm a student with no money. :smallfrown: )

KeresM
2008-11-30, 12:49 PM
Totally badass. A question: How was he able to become a pally again if he purposefully committed the act which made him fall? Did the DM change that rule from the sheer awesomeness of the fall?

The DM figured 'well, he killed an evil character to prevent someone else from committing an evil act, after the evil character had murdered his way across the land, so I'm not calling that an act of irredeemable evil on the part of of the paladin'.

The guy who rolled up a paladin and responded to the scenario of 'you see two young street kids grab a roll of bread and run for it' with 'I pull out my crossbow and shoot them' was another issue.

Though he didn't get the chance for a redemption scenario at all, because shortly after he took the above actions, my character sneak-attacked him with a poison dagger.

hamishspence
2008-11-30, 12:55 PM
why would an act that makes you fall be one of "irredeemable evil?"

in Fiendish Codex 2, a Lawful character can avoid Hell, if their only unatoned-for acts don't sum a total of 9 or more. Murder is 5, Cold-Blooded Murder 6, on this scale.

If said paladin had dropped dead moments after commiting that one evil act, he could make a case that, since he's still LG (or LN at worst) and his Corruption level is below 9, he's not going to Nine Hells.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-30, 01:24 PM
I wouldn't have even had the Paladin fall temporarily to be honest, KeresM (my stance is that the guy was way too dangerous to be allowed to live, and he probably stood a descent chance of escaping if he was captured).

hamishspence
2008-11-30, 01:31 PM
The Mace Windu problem, in short, except Windu at least had the excuse of knowing it was a very powerful Force user at the point of his sword.

"he's too dangerous to be left alive"

KeresM
2008-11-30, 01:35 PM
why would an act that makes you fall be one of "irredeemable evil?"

Evil and 'irredeemable evil' are different things. An act of evil could make you fall, but a proper act of contrition could restore you. An act of irredeemable evil is an act so heinous that there is no act of contrition that can restore the balance in the character's soul.

The paladin's code dictated that he could not kill an unarmed man nor someone who had surrendered. From the point of view of the paladin (a very well-RPed character), violating the code was evil.

To any other character in the party, the act would not have been considered evil and probably wouldn't have been a blip on the path to heaven. But because the paladin believed it was an evil act, he fell. The conscience of the paladin plays a role in what constitutes an evil act.

There were a lot of fun RP sessions with that paladin. His code also forbid divorce, and after the characters got seriously drunk the cleric jokingly married the paladin to my character.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-30, 01:37 PM
That sounds ironic about why he fell (I'd say that marrying people when drunk is much more evil then what the Paladin did, though). If it was a joke wedding, were they still officially married?

KeresM
2008-11-30, 02:01 PM
That sounds ironic about why he fell (I'd say that marrying people when drunk is much more evil then what the Paladin did, though). If it was a joke wedding, were they still officially married?

Since it was performed by a cleric, yep.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-30, 02:04 PM
What ended up happening with the character's "wedding" in the end?

Nerd-o-rama
2008-11-30, 02:11 PM
Our party had been tracking a bad guy for about two years, following a trail of bloodshed. We are talking squashed babies, headless puppies, angels disemboweled level bloodshed. We'd lost several party members to this guy, folks that had been much loved by other party members and due to the bad guy's brand of evil, were unraisable by any means available to us.

Finally we catch the guy. The paladin and the home-brewed fighter type (essentially a swordsage, but that book hadn't been written yet) had the guy. He makes eye contact with the paladin, knowing the paladin to have a strict code of honor, throws his weapon down and says to the paladin 'I surrender, take me to your courts'.

To our shock, the next words we hear from the player of the paladin was 'he takes a step forward and uses his last smite evil'. Smashes the guy's head in. Turns and tells the speechless fighter, 'standing aside while you acted would have been the greater dishonor. The gods may judge me as they will, but I could not let you take the fall for me.' Sheathes his sword, and walks away.

Awesome fall. The redemption story-arc that followed was also great. The pally became a pally again, and the previously chaotic neutral fighter-type ended up neutral good.Now that's how you're supposed to fall. And how you're supposed to get redeemed. Very nice.

Yahzi
2008-11-30, 02:19 PM
Awesome fall. The redemption story-arc that followed was also great. The pally became a pally again, and the previously chaotic neutral fighter-type ended up neutral good.
Further example of how D&D is a cooperation between the players and the DM. :smallsmile:

Shraik
2008-11-30, 02:23 PM
I agree that he was robbing the Commoners of their free will, but he would have been doing that regardless of who he used in on or why he used it, so it seems odd that he would be classed as evil for using that ability.

I think he got turned because he used it on a village scale, not just one person, or two that are actually doing something harmful. I say using it on the rogue with a knife to someone's throat is a little more justified then using it on an entire village of people who, persumably, did nothing.

Vorpal Soda
2008-11-30, 02:24 PM
He makes eye contact with the paladin, knowing the paladin to have a strict code of honor, throws his weapon down and says to the paladin 'I surrender, take me to your courts'.

Would "I am your jury, I find you guilty, I am your judge, I sentence death, I am your executioner, now taste my steel." promply followed by cutting off his head, be an appropiate response? I imagine that in a setting where many villians are too high leveled for imprisionment to be anything but delaying more atrocities, paladins would have some level of authority to act as judge, jury and executioner.

Obviously this would not apply to the example of two kids stealing a loaf of bread.

hamishspence
2008-11-30, 02:26 PM
in lawless regions, paladins of Tyr can act like this: Faiths and Pantheons.

Rangers in regions like the Sword Coast, are considered law enforcement agents- resolvers of disputes, hunters of fugitives.

vicente408
2008-11-30, 02:33 PM
While that is certainly a possibility, it shows a different personality and outlook from the paladin, I think. The way it happened in the game, the Paladin knows and recognizes that what he did was wrong, though he felt it was necessary for the greater good. I prefer that kind of acknowledgement of sacrificing his principles; it seems far more noble and dramatic, to me.

hamishspence
2008-11-30, 02:38 PM
same here- thats one of the better paladin archetypes- more Lancelot than Galahad.

Mephit
2008-11-30, 02:42 PM
"I am your jury, I find you guilty, I am your judge, I sentence death, I am your executioner, now taste my steel."

...Thank the Twelve Gods, Miko, you're still alive!

I think I made my point clear with that. :smallannoyed:
You could justify it if there was no way anyone would be able to lock him up. For instance, a sorcerer who's terrorising a far away region with the nearest thing close to a city a thousand of miles away, it'd be somewhat ok, I guess. But any paladin who'd do that in a game I'm DMing would definitely fall at that.

KeresM
2008-11-30, 02:48 PM
What ended up happening with the character's "wedding" in the end?

He went about courting my character 'properly', which annoyed the heck out of her for a while. They became genuine friends and when he got badly wounded with a magical poison, she put a knife to the throat of an unfriendly cleric and said essentially 'fix him or join him'.

Then they lived happily ever after for about 6 weeks or so until my character had an accident with a helm of opposing alignment and went lawful evil for a while. They fixed her, reconciled in time to defeat the apocalypse, then had a more proper wedding, went on to rule a kingdom together, had kids, and lived happily ever after again.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-30, 02:53 PM
Thanks for explaining. In some cases, I'd say taking a Miko-like attitude is necessary (ethically, I class myself as a Neutral (Chaotic) Good version of Toreno from GTA: San Andreas, though).

vegetalss4
2008-11-30, 02:59 PM
Paladins power is granted by their god, correct?
There is nothing that prevents a paladin from following an evil god (Unlike a cleric)
Don't believe it was an evil god but...

He followed the laws of his god to the letter (And thus technically lawful), and didn't do evil. Other than the bigotry. Didn't steal, didn't kill people unless they actively were against his god, would help fellow followers with pretty much anything.

actult paladins gain power from the force of goodness not from gods (unless you are in fearun, or the dm says so) and depending on how you interprent it the paladin code stops them from whorshipping evil gods, and there's actuly nothing that stops cleric from whorshipping evil gods

Dacia Brabant
2008-11-30, 03:00 PM
Our party had been tracking a bad guy for about two years, following a trail of bloodshed. We are talking squashed babies, headless puppies, angels disemboweled level bloodshed. We'd lost several party members to this guy, folks that had been much loved by other party members and due to the bad guy's brand of evil, were unraisable by any means available to us.

Finally we catch the guy. The paladin and the home-brewed fighter type (essentially a swordsage, but that book hadn't been written yet) had the guy. He makes eye contact with the paladin, knowing the paladin to have a strict code of honor, throws his weapon down and says to the paladin 'I surrender, take me to your courts'.

To our shock, the next words we hear from the player of the paladin was 'he takes a step forward and uses his last smite evil'. Smashes the guy's head in. Turns and tells the speechless fighter, 'standing aside while you acted would have been the greater dishonor. The gods may judge me as they will, but I could not let you take the fall for me.' Sheathes his sword, and walks away.

Awesome fall. The redemption story-arc that followed was also great. The pally became a pally again, and the previously chaotic neutral fighter-type ended up neutral good.

It's stories like this that keep me from losing total faith in the gaming community's ability to handle paladins. Thank you. :smallsmile:


Also, umm, do you have room for another player? :smallredface: :smallbiggrin: