Wizard vs Psion

[Heliomance]

I got into a discussion recently with my gaming friends about psionics. They maintain psionics is horrible and broken, I say a wizard does it better. Eventually we decided that we'd do arena-style matches, wizard vs psion, at levels 5, 10 and 20, one match with core+1 (XPH in the case of the psion, probably CA for the wizards) and one match with access to everything. Barring TO-level stinky cheese, who does the playground think will win, and can they give ome pointers on how a wizard best goes about beating a psion?

[Zeful]

I got into a discussion recently with my gaming friends about psionics. They maintain psionics is horrible and broken, I say a wizard does it better. Eventually we decided that we'd do arena-style matches, wizard vs psion, at levels 5, 10 and 20, one match with core+1 (XPH in the case of the psion, probably CA for the wizards) and one match with access to everything. Barring TO-level stinky cheese, who does the playground think will win, and can they give ome pointers on how a wizard best goes about beating a psion?

How transparent is Psionics to magic? Will dispel magic stop psionic attacks? Vice versa?

[Heliomance]

Um, no idea, actually. Didn't come up in the discussion.

[arguskos]

So, 6 fights?

Core+One Book (XPH for Psion, Complete Arcane for Wizard)
Level 5: Psion
Level 10: Wizard
Level 20: Wizard

Everything Ever
Levels 5, 10, and 20: Wizard

Reasoning:
At level 5 in the restricted match, the Wizard has far less cheese possible, so the psion can probably out do him. At level 10, it is up for debate, but since the wizard starts coming online with his more powerful effects around now, it'll probably fall his way. At level 20... gate+time stop+whatever you want=crispy psion.

As for the everything ever match, I haven't heard anything really broken about psions, at least, not at the level wizards can break the universe, so I give it to the wizard.

Just my thoughts. Let us know how it goes!

[jcsw]

I got into a discussion recently with my gaming friends about psionics. They maintain psionics is horrible and broken, I say a wizard does it better. Eventually we decided that we'd do arena-style matches, wizard vs psion, at levels 5, 10 and 20, one match with core+1 (XPH in the case of the psion, probably CA for the wizards) and one match with access to everything. Barring TO-level stinky cheese, who does the playground think will win, and can they give ome pointers on how a wizard best goes about beating a psion?

1. XPH? Why would you/they pick XPH, it gives very little that isn't in the SRD site. (Unless you don't consider the psionics section core, then this match is rather unfair to psionics. (Of course, if they think psionics is that broken and want to take that disadvantage, su-re...))

2. I'd also make sure your friends don't have any common misconceptions about psionics (other than "it's overpowered"), eg: That they didn't know there's an augmenting cap on powers.

3. Also, are Prestige Classes allowed? (Some wizard vs X duels don't allow them, any info you can provide will help.)

4. You might consider selecting Spell Compendium instead.

5. They are likely to have the Energy Adaptation Power. (It's quite awesome, no?) Giving them large amounts of elemental resistance. I'd personally stay away from Arcane-thesis-orb-spell-builds.

[Adumbration]

At low levels the matches definitely go to Psion. Energy Missile (cold) is a pretty surefire way of killing the wizard, just blow your power points to augmenting it (up to your level, of course) and the wizard should die. At fifth level deals 5d6+5, 10th 10d6+10, etc, which should kill the wizard with ease. No attack roll, just fortitude save, possibly power resistance.

Later on wizard shenanigans come to play, and the wizard will probably win.

[Neithan]

The psion is mostly just a wizard using the spell point system. And because the psion can use his "low-level power points" for higher level spells, but the wizard can't use his low-level slots for high level spells, I think the psion has an advantage.
And he does not prepare powers. If it turns out a 2nd level power works really well, the psion can just spam the wizard with it. The wizard may have two of those prepared and after that he has to use something less effective.

[Zeful]

XPH? Why would you pick XPH, it gives very little that isn't in the SRD site. (Unless you don't consider the psionics section core, then this match is rather unfair to psionics. (Of course, if they think psionics is that broken and want to take that disadvantage, su-re...))

SRD=/=Core. SRD material is OGL and can be posted as long as none of the important mechanics (character gen, core mechanic) aren't included. Of course the XPH is core to all 3.5 psionics, but is not core to the game. Big difference.

[jcsw]

SRD=/=Core. SRD material is OGL and can be posted as long as none of the important mechanics (character gen, core mechanic) aren't included. Of course the XPH is core to all 3.5 psionics, but is not core to the game. Big difference.
I just thought it silly that the psionics players would accept such a disadvantage.

[Heliomance]

Wasn't me that suggested the book limits

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For PC classes going on adventures, Wizard is definitely a much stronger choice due to versatility. They both have completely different tricks, but the biggest difference is between the Wizard's save-or-suck spells usually screw them even if they make the save, whereas the Psion's can have an exceptionally high DC but a very short duration. Psion ends up running out of powerpoints way too fast compared to how quickly the Wizard would run out of spells. The Wizard gets a lot more party buffs, the Psion can only buff himself and his Psicrystal. The Psion can use the Vigor + Share Pain loop on his Psicrystal for great survivability, the Wizard has plenty of spells that keep him from getting hit at all. The Psion can make a single powerful Astral Construct, the Wizard can summon multiple creatures, most of which are just as powerful at the later levels. The only thing the Psion can do better than the Wizard would be spending all his powerpoints over a few rounds to destroy a single big encounter, whereas the Wizard would just no-save-debuff everything and then buff up his allies and defeat the encounter just as easily.

In an arena match it depends entirely on who can win initiative. Let's assume each uses the SRD (Core + XPH) plus one book, Wizard chooses Spell Compendium and Psion probably gets Complete Psionic. The Wizard gets Nerveskitter, there's nothing even close for the Psion to use. Later on they both have Moment of Prescience to use on initiative, but Nerveskitter is still good then. Both could Polymorph/Metamorphosis/Shapechange/etc. into a Dire Tortoise from Sandstorm to both get a free surprise round. The Wizard has the Celerity line of spells from PH2, and that alone would win it. Psionic powers can't be counterspelled, Dispel Psionics cannot be used to counterspell, so that's both an advantage and a disadvantage. The Psion has no way of getting through a Prismatic Sphere short of Reality Revision. The Wizard has no way of getting past Timeless Body, but then nothing has a way of getting past it and he'd have to manifest it every round, and the Wizard could just ready an action to cast something on him when he tries to recast it. Overall, Wizard is a more powerful class than Psion.

[1of3]

I guess comparing wizards to psions is like comparing apples to oranges. They do completely different stuff, although some effects are on both spell lists.

Psions are very, very good at scrying. Clairvoyant Sense is killer.
Psions have nice protective effects like Intellect Fortress or Dampen Power.
Psionic Revivify is usually better than a cleric's Revivify.

Psions, like sorcerers, are bad with effects that one only needs once per day or less. (Identify, Rope Trick...) Psions also deal less direct damage than arcane characters (no orbs, meta-psioncis usually not that effective). Also Psions cannot learn Fly or Invisibility (the latter being available with an Extra Power feat via the Lurk's list).

[kamikasei]

The psion is mostly just a wizard using the spell point system. And because the psion can use his "low-level power points" for higher level spells, but the wizard can't use his low-level slots for high level spells, I think the psion has an advantage.

None of which gives the psion the kind of ridiculously broken spells that wizards get.

Heliomance, I don't think an arena match will prove much. What are their arguments for why a psion is broken, and a wizard isn't? I'm sure the boards can provide counters aplenty to those.

[The Glyphstone]

Detractors of psionics rarely tend to be the sort of people willing to listen to reasonable logic.

[Rad]

I had one of my players play a psion once. The only psionic I saw in real play and the only character I ever had to ask the player to retreat because it was too powerful.
What he did was mostly the use of linked power and sincronicity (and hustle to regain his focus) to get a lot of actions. He basically got one action on the first round, 2 on the second, 3 on the third and so on... horribly broken. The cap didn't help there because they were all different uses of a power (yes, we did take into account that the cost for linked power is added to the cost for the base power and all that) and AFAIK the cap is per-action, not per-round.
So if that is allowed... if the psion can resist the first round or two he has it.

PS: if anybody knows a reason why the combo is not valid and tells me, I'd gladly appreciate it :smallsmile:

EDIT: moreover it seemed to us that the psicrystal made the scouting character redundant. it's WAY better than a familiar at that.

[kamikasei]

Detractors of psionics rarely tend to be the sort of people willing to listen to reasonable logic.

Is there much hope then that they'll heed evidence? Especially the sort of "evidence" that an arena match would provide?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Detractors of psionics rarely tend to be the sort of people willing to listen to reasonable logic.

+1


I had one of my players play a psion once. The only psionic I saw in real play and the only character I ever had to ask the player to retreat because it was too powerful.
What he did was mostly the use of linked power and sincronicity (and hustle to regain his focus) to get a lot of actions. He basically got one action on the first round, 2 on the second, 3 on the third and so on... horribly broken. The cap didn't help there because they were all different uses of a power (yes, we did take into account that the cost for linked power is added to the cost for the base power and all that) and AFAIK the cap is per-action, not per-round.
So if that is allowed... if the psion can resist the first round or two he has it.

PS: if anybody knows a reason why the combo is not valid and tells me, I'd gladly appreciate it :smallsmile:

EDIT: moreover it seemed to us that the psicrystal made the scouting character redundant. it's WAY better than a familiar at that.

The standard trick involves the powers Synchronicity and Affinity Field. You replace yourself with your Psicrystal when manifesting Affinity Field, then you manifest a Quickened Synchronicity using Share Powers. You and your psicrystal both benefit from the power, and Affinity Field causes you and everyone else within range to be affected by it a second time. You now have two standard actions, one to spend on whatever you want and one to manifest another Synchronicity to gain two more Standard Actions. Repeat as many times as necessary, your number of actions in a single round are only limited by your remaining powerpoints.

I doubt he'd be able to legitimately do a trick like you describe, since Synchronicity grants only a single standard action. If he uses it then it needs to be manifested again, otherwise he doesn't get to keep it from one round to the next. The way you describe it looks like he was probably manifesting it Quickened, which you can't use a Quickened power and a Swift Action power like Hustle in the same round. There's no Psionic version of Repeat Spell that I'm aware of, so he couldn't have gained multiple actions from manifesting it once. He was almost certainly cheating, taking advantage of the lack of knowledge of the system, or maybe he didn't quite understand it himself and did more than he should have been able to. That is unless you're talking 3.0 psionics, which did have quite a few infinite-ability-score loops and similar tricks that come from improper playtesting.

[Drascin]

The psion is mostly just a wizard using the spell point system. And because the psion can use his "low-level power points" for higher level spells, but the wizard can't use his low-level slots for high level spells, I think the psion has an advantage.
And he does not prepare powers. If it turns out a 2nd level power works really well, the psion can just spam the wizard with it. The wizard may have two of those prepared and after that he has to use something less effective.

...No, not really.

See, you probably have little experience with psionics. I, however, feature them heavily in every world I make, because I love the system. So please take my word when I say that a psion is nowhere near the campaign breaker a Wizard can be.

Point the first, the individual spell quality is miles away. The only thing the psion does better than the Wizard is either blasting or scrying. The wizard, on the other hand, is better at everything else - summoning, save-or-dies, save-or-sucks, utility spells, mobility (a huge disadvantage over level 7 or so)... you name it, he got it.

Point the second, the Wizard actually has a lot more stamina. A Wizard can usually leave an encounter ready for his partners to mop-up with one or two spells, which means he spends a lot less resources each fight. The psion hemhorrages power points like no tomorrow.

And so on and so forth. The only thing psions have over wizards is that they're more fun to play, and a lot more balanced in that they actually leave things for the rest of the party to do apart from killing what the Wizard has disabled.

[Tehnar]

I would argue utility.

Powers like:
dispell psionics
damp power
detect hostile intent (really strong power)
touchsight
concealing amorpha (which is better then blur)
dimension hop
etc..

I think they dont have as good control spells ala solid fog and tentacles, comparable save or dies and save or sucks.

Also they are by far the best dispellers.

[jcsw]

I would argue utility.

Powers like:
dispell psionics
damp power
detect hostile intent (really strong power)
touchsight
concealing amorpha (which is better then blur)
dimension hop
etc..

I think they dont have as good control spells ala solid fog and tentacles, comparable save or dies and save or sucks.

Also they are by far the best dispellers.

Detect Magic
Detect Thoughts
Ice Wall
Dispel Magic
Mirror Image
Rope Trick
Polymorph Any Object

And psions don't have the ability to copy utility spells into their repertoire, so they have to use one of their (much lower amount of) powers known

[Adumbration]

Time Hop, the ultimate utility power. There's nothing the wizard can answer to that, at least not with low level spells.

[Fan]

Time hop?!?!
THIS IS TIME STOP!:smallfurious:
((:smalltongue:))

[Shovah]

Detect Magic
Detect Thoughts
Ice Wall
Dispel Magic
Mirror Image
Rope Trick
Polymorph Any Object

And psions don't have the ability to copy utility spells into their repertoire, so they have to use one of their (much lower amount of) powers known


Don't forget;
Knock
Illusions (the Image line, ghost sound and such)
Message
Identify
Unseen Servant
Mount
Phantom Steed
Floating Disk
Reduce Person
Fabricate
Creation spells
Wall of X(Stone, Iron, Whatever)
Stoneshape
Water Breathing
Gentle Repose
Etc.

The list goes on and on.

And as jcsw said, the Wizard can atleast know all of these without taking a hit to their combat effectiveness.
Although they may not always have them prepared (which is why it's handy that they can know all of these spells, and make spare scrolls of them if they might be needed), they atleast have the option.

[Fan]

Divintation. They know WHAT your goign to do BEFORE you ever get the chance to do it.

[Tehnar]

For most of those spell there are psionic variants. For some like water breathing there are powers like adapt body that can do the same thing (or even better).

The psion lacks in illusions, comparable summons and battlefield control spells. For most of the other utility he is as good or better then a wizard, IMO. This is due to the fact that when using power stones he can use his own manifester level instead of the minimum one required. I would argue his in combat utility power is greater then that of a wizard, while his out of combat utility is less.

[Mephit]

For most of those spell there are psionic variants. For some like water breathing there are powers like adapt body that can do the same thing (or even better).

But does he have the versatility of all the spells from spell compendium, complete arcane, etc?
Do note that most or all that's listed up there is limited to Core.

[Tehnar]

True, a psion can hardly match that versatility. However this is due to the sheer amount of spells and the power creep associated with. I think if you compare XPH to PHB, or XPH + CP to PHB + CA that you will find the psion and the wizard evenly matched. That is the psion does some things better, while the wizard does other things better.

[The Glyphstone]

Psions don't get the absolute top-tier brokenness stuff though that Wizards are so famous for in the endgame - they have no Magnificent Mansion, no Planar Binding/Gate, no Astral Projection, their Genesis is comparatively lame, and their Shapechange is Egoist-exclusive and costs XP to use. Their Timestop version is a bit better, but that's it. They also far fall behind in party utility, as many of the wizard's buffs can be cast on other people, which the psion is almost exclusively self-only.

Psicrystals do rock over familiars though, mostly because they get feats of their own that can be swiped via Feat Leech.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Seems that posting a question here means that the Wizard is going to win. Every time. This is a very, nay; Overly Wizard friendly board. :smallfurious: You could be asking a question about a Rogue build, and someone is going to post stating "play a wizard". I can't count the # of threads there are with 'ZOMG Wizard pwnzorz DND' themes. arrrgh! :smallfurious:

Rant over. :smallbiggrin:

So, I go the other route and say the Psion is going to win. On top of that , A Kineticist. direct damage. Wizard is going to have a horrifying Reflex save. Yes, I am basing Psion WIN on one aspect. The Psion is simiar to the vein of a Sorcerer, where he/she can cast/manifest the same thing over and over again. (Start of Darkness comes to mind). Pure unrelenting force with a side of style. In a pinch, style can slide. :xykon:

Psion manifest's Synchronicity (a 1st level time management power) and gains an extra standard action.
Psion manifests a Twinned Elemental Barrage (a 5th level power) with the first standard action. Takes a move action to re-focus, and then manifests another Twinned Elemental Barrage. Spaced correctly, that is 12 reflex saves, and you can choose which damage type to deal (sadly, Force is not available in ~most~ games). Psion can also drop Transdimensional Power for the few Wizards that go ethereal.

Psionics are inherently more balanced than arcane magic. The problem with Wizards is that there is always an answer they have to every question. That is the basis of being unbalanced (except for all the annoying bookkeeping). It's all about the final product. Theory can keep going and going and going, but in actual game time, I would take the Psion any day.

[Yukitsu]

Seems that posting a question here means that the Wizard is going to win. Every time. This is a very, nay; Overly Wizard friendly board. :smallfurious: You could be asking a question about a Rogue build, and someone is going to post stating "play a wizard". I can't count the # of threads there are with 'ZOMG Wizard pwnzorz DND' themes. arrrgh! :smallfurious:

The wizards of the coast board and theory op boards also have that theme. They just bring up clerics and druids more often than this sight.

[AmberVael]

A psion just has too much blasting power (and by blasting I mean everything from pumping damage to pumping saves) for this to be anything other than an initiative-off.
Besides, duels are never really indicative of class power.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

The wizards of the coast board and theory op boards also have that theme. They just bring up clerics and druids more often than this sight.

And that's fine, but what grinds my gears is that there is nary a thought here, there, or anywhere about melee based characters that is not a Druid or Cleric. I don't even go to the WoTC boards anymore because of that. The only things I go there for are the "Guidebooks" which are full of awesome ideas. The spellcaster bias in the 3.x editions is just crazy bad. Why we have Tome of Battle!

I would like to see an in-practice based / non-flame thread about a pure melee character build (that does not turn into a "war" about the Frenzied Berserker).

But, back to the point, I think that allowing Force damage into the Psion (Kineticist) arsenal would put them more on par with the Wizard. True that not many things are immune to force damage (same goes for sonic). They could make it a d4 like they do with Sonic damage. Heck, I would go for d4-1 honestly.

[Tyrael]

The wizards of the coast board and theory op boards also have that theme. They just bring up clerics and druids more often than this sight.


"site". Comes from "website".

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

A psion just has too much blasting power (and by blasting I mean everything from pumping damage to pumping saves) for this to be anything other than an initiative-off.
Besides, duels are never really indicative of class power.

And that I think is where pure strategy comes in. Along with an initiative-off type battle, there would be a hp-off battle. Whoever has more HP wins.

Well, there is one practical application for both a Wiz and a Psion. Having both of them in an adventuring party. I would take having both of them with each other instead of against each other.

[Yukitsu]

And that I think is where pure strategy comes in. Along with an initiative-off type battle, there would be a hp-off battle. Whoever has more HP wins.


This is only true for the level 5 show down (and only from the psions point of view, wizards don't do damage) and might be true at 10 if the wizard isn't a very well played wizard. Psions always win in both damage and HP. Wizards rely on dirty tricks, control and not being in combat.

[The Glyphstone]

And that's fine, but what grinds my gears is that there is nary a thought here, there, or anywhere about melee based characters that is not a Druid or Cleric. I don't even go to the WoTC boards anymore because of that. The only things I go there for are the "Guidebooks" which are full of awesome ideas. The spellcaster bias in the 3.x editions is just crazy bad. Why we have Tome of Battle!

I would like to see an in-practice based / non-flame thread about a pure melee character build (that does not turn into a "war" about the Frenzied Berserker).
.

The problem is that it's like asking for a practical way to make a horse run faster than a mag-lev train. There are plenty of threads about optimizing melee characters on this board, and stories about effective melee characters, but they 1) don't involve the melee attempting to defeat an optimized wizard, and 2) don't involve a party where the wizard is actively trying to optimize and dominate encounters.

[AmberVael]

^^: While at high levels a psion will rely on dealing unavoidable (by save, at least) charisma damage (Ego whip), the ability to completely remake their character as a single action (Psychic Reformation via Bend Reality), and completely take out an opponent with a fortitude based teleport power (Decerebrate). :smallwink:

[mabriss lethe]

A lot of this theorizing doesn't matter in an arena battle. Sure, the level of reality breaking mayhem a wizard can pull off is a few notches higher than what a psion can do.

That doesn't mean that the psion is automatically going to loose. It all boils down to things like which player knows the scope of their character's abilities better and which player is the sneakier git.

[Yukitsu]

Rules lawyer knowledge helps psion more, sneaky git helps wizards more, IMO.

[AmberVael]

Rules lawyer knowledge helps psion more, sneaky git helps wizards more, IMO.

I'm not so sure about that. You can be a pretty clever psion.

[The Glyphstone]

^^: While at high levels a psion will rely on dealing unavoidable (by save, at least) charisma damage (Ego whip), the ability to completely remake their character as a single action (Psychic Reformation via Bend Reality), and completely take out an opponent with a fortitude based teleport power (Decerebrate). :smallwink:

Ego Whip is mind-affecting, which weakens (but doesn't eliminate) its utility at high levels. Reformation is admittedly handy, though it costs XP to Bend Reality. Decerebrate is just plain awesome though - I can't think of any other Fort save-or-dies besides Flesh to Stone that aren't [Death] spells off the top of my head.

EDIt: I'd reverse that dichotomy - wizards need to be rules lawyers to squeeze every last broken bit of brokenness out of their spells and how they interact, while psions are better off taking advantage of brute force and/or being a sneaky git IRL.

[AmberVael]

Ego Whip is mind-affecting, which weakens (but doesn't eliminate) its utility at high levels. Reformation is admittedly handy, though it costs XP to Bend Reality. Decerebrate is just plain awesome though - I can't think of any other Fort save-or-dies besides Flesh to Stone that aren't [Death] spells off the top of my head.

Yeah, which is why I said 'by save, at least.' At least Psions have Shatter Mindblank to give them a minor hope of affecting people with that spell/power on them (though it might be better just to try Dispel).

Bend reality only costs 300 xp (or the cost of the power, whichever is more). Not too shabby at high levels. Definitely worthwhile in a huge duel that could determine whether you live or die.

At high levels, there is also Stygian Conflagration. You can only avoid that one by use of SR/PR (or immunity to negative levels)! Negative levels in an area effect with no descriptor. What fun!

[Yukitsu]

EDIt: I'd reverse that dichotomy - wizards need to be rules lawyers to squeeze every last broken bit of brokenness out of their spells and how they interact, while psions are better off taking advantage of brute force and/or being a sneaky git IRL.

It's a comparative thing. Psions need certain lawyery things to function at certain levels, while wizards get more gains by being underhanded. Psions simply don't have spells with the same capacity to be annoying that the wizard does.

[Mushroom Ninja]

But, back to the point, I think that allowing Force damage into the Psion (Kineticist) arsenal would put them more on par with the Wizard. True that not many things are immune to force damage (same goes for sonic). They could make it a d4 like they do with Sonic damage. Heck, I would go for d4-1 honestly.

I'm not sure about that. Psions, in my (somewhat limited) experience, tend to burn out after an encounter or two, while wizards tend to continue being useful for the whole day.

[AmberVael]

It's a comparative thing. Psions need certain lawyery things to function at certain levels, while wizards get more gains by being underhanded. Psions simply don't have spells with the same capacity to be annoying that the wizard does.

Examples please? I'd agree with Glyphstone, honestly. A psion's powers tend to be more versatile than a wizard's spells (each individually, that is), and can be used for multiple purposes, some of which aren't immediately obvious. A psion has a lot to gain from being tricky.

Example: Time Hop as self concealment (I'm not there AT ALL for a few rounds!) or as a trap (no, there is nothing right above you waiting to fall on your head as soon as gravity begins affecting it. Yet.) Deja Vu, the versatile damage powers, control light and flames all call for tricky and clever uses.

[Yukitsu]

Examples please? I'd agree with Glyphstone, honestly. A psion's powers tend to be more versatile than a wizard's spells (each individually, that is), and can be used for multiple purposes, some of which aren't immediately obvious. A psion has a lot to gain from being tricky.

Doing tricky things with how rules interact is rules lawyery, using tricky abilities (simalucrum) is tricky. Psions gain more from using the rules in a tricky manner by making use of rare comboes. Wizards don't need to synergize spells in an exotic fashion at all. They simply cast spells that make life for everyone else tricky.


Example: Time Hop as self concealment (I'm not there AT ALL for a few rounds!) or as a trap (no, there is nothing right above you waiting to fall on your head as soon as gravity begins affecting it. Yet.) Deja Vu, the versatile damage powers, control light and flames all call for tricky and clever uses.

Almost all of those tricks are fairly standard for both wizards and psions, actually. I'm more referring to the doubled up synchronicity mentioned earlier, or item creation mallarky a shaper can go into. (Shapers can craft 21 000 EXP of items, and only lose 5000 EXP.) Of course, the latter assumes you banned thought bottles, because if you didn't, everyone abuses magic item creation.

[AmberVael]

Considering all of the powers I named have no true spell equivalents... I'd disagree that they're standard for Wizards.

And you're still not giving a real example of power/spell use.

[Yukitsu]

"The Psion can use the Vigor + Share Pain loop on his Psicrystal for great survivability"

Someone also mentioned shared manifesting with the psi crystal to get 2 actions per synchronicity.

A shaper casts astral seed, crafts 20, 999 EXP worth of psionic items (Saving 262, 487 GP) then kills himself, coming back to life with a negative level, removing it with reality revision, is how I think it went.

Affinity fields, damage, and a bucket of water, I believe also worked. Using the vigor/share pain ability, this will take down an enemy far faster than you drop.

Metaconcert with a fission for even more actions. Especially if you had previously manifested schism. (requires feat expenditure)

Thought bottle and time regression to go as far back in time as you want.

Playing a hive mind with mind seed. Gain worship power to ascend.

Haven't been to character op in a while, so I'm likely missing a lot, or getting some wrong.


Time Hop as self concealment (I'm not there AT ALL for a few rounds!)

If the enemy has psicraft, usually this will end in you getting hit by a readied action. In all other situations, otolukes resilient sphere is equivalent in effect.


or as a trap (no, there is nothing right above you waiting to fall on your head as soon as gravity begins affecting it. Yet.)

You can do the same without save using time stop or temporal stasis. Admittedly, psions do this for less, and shadow casters are better. Wizards do have a direct answer to it though.


Deja Vu

Not much different from when, say, suggestion gets used, however.


the versatile damage powers,

Yes, psions make much better blasters than wizards.


control light and flames all call for tricky and clever uses.

It is a nice combination of wizard spells, but I'm not sure how it's really tricky.

[Lord Zentei]

The Psion has an important disadvantage: many powers of the list are barred (EDIT: meaning for instance that a Telepath can only learn General and Telepath powers), and he can learn only a limited number of powers, while the Wizard can learn spells from 6-8 out of 8 schools and can accumulate any number of spells. An Erudite might fare better.

Nonetheless, we have the following (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98076):


The second is to actually go with a nova build, which would most likely involve using a Psicrystal with the powers Synchronicity and Affinity Field. You manifest Affinity Field, replacing yourself with your psicrystal. Then you manifest a Quickened Synchronicity, sharing it with your psicrystal. The affinity field causes you to be affected by Synchronicity twice, gaining two standard actions. Spend one to do whatever you want, and the other to manifest another Synchronicity, again sharing it with the psicrystal. Repeat that as many times as you want until everyone is dead, all within the first round. Be sure to use Psionic Moment of Prescience to be sure to win initiative, or Metamorphosis into a Dire Tortoise from Sandstorm to automatically get to act before anyone else as though you have a surprise round. As long as you don't run out of powerpoints or ways to attack, and as long as nobody else is close enough to be inside the affinity field, you'll win before anyone else gets to act.

Combine that with Plane Shift and you have the utility of the Time Stop + Gate + Whatever effect.

[Lert, A.]

I would give the win to:

Level 5: Psion
Level 10: Wizard
Level 20: Wizard

Mostly it comes down to the wizard's prepared spells. While a lower level psion has the ability to use all his power points on his highest level powers and nova in a single encounter, the wizard is more limited in what he can use. By level 10 however, he has a lot more choices, and unless he picked a lot of useless spells for the day, will win.

If we include items, things get very crazy, really fast.

[Tehnar]

If by dueling you mean, you stand in a open space 60 ft away, then it does become a initiative contest.

However in arena that has terrain features (wall, forests, pits, rivers, lakes etc), then I would rank them as follows

lvl 5: psion
lvl 10: psion
lvl 15: even match
lvl 20: wizard

[Yukitsu]

Disagree on psion at 10 and 15, even with terrain. Psion at 10 and 15 is still best using those blasting spells albiet with more actions (and thus more blasting), while wizards have started fighting by proxy.

[AmberVael]

Disagree on psion at 10 and 15, even with terrain. Psion at 10 and 15 is still best using those blasting spells albiet with more actions (and thus more blasting), while wizards have started fighting by proxy.

What brings you to that conclusion? :smallconfused:
Blasting requires massive power point expenditure... I doubt that will be the preferred method of 10/15th level Psions.

There are quite a few non-blasty powers which can be used effectively at those levels, too, most notable of which are Ego Whip (though this will depend on the enemy), Psionic Blast (Stun for multiple rounds in an area? Handy), Death Urge (the ability to drive up its save makes it useful for a very long time), oh, and at 15th level? Decerebrate, which is one of the most awesome powers ever. Depending on your Discipline, you'll also have other powers to augment that.

Those are just the ones I can list offhand, of course.

[Yukitsu]

I find ego whip is the best power in the game in some situations, but is unfortunately tagged with one of the most commonly countered tags in the game of "mind effecting" which narrows it down to a win or lose ability, with lose coming up more frequintly late game. From what I've seen, it was best used up until about 15 max, but was never very good against other humanoids with class levels and brains.

All the other abilities are typical save or dies, but the sad thing is, they pay more to increase the DC, meaning that save or dies also rely on expending more power points. Also, check through the books. Wizards have more ways to increase save DCs over psions, which is why save or dies are the wizards staple for when they have to do the killing, if they choose to focus on that.

Blasting is better with psions because it's staggeringly easy to get more power points when compared to getting more spell slots, and it's possible to blast something enough that it dies outright. Not to mention psionics scales much more nicely than spells do, often increasing by 4.5 per level no cap as opposed to 3.5 with a cap.