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Eloel
2008-11-30, 09:07 AM
I don't think this is exactly RAW, so I'll ask it here. (this could go more to RAI)
With a Monk, do you get extra unarmed strikes for two-weapon-fighting? (without it, I seem to be getting not enough damage)
If above is yes, can I flurry with 2 unarmed strikes?

jcsw
2008-11-30, 09:29 AM
I don't think this is exactly RAW, so I'll ask it here. (this could go more to RAI)
With a Monk, do you get extra unarmed strikes for two-weapon-fighting? (without it, I seem to be getting not enough damage)
If above is yes, can I flurry with 2 unarmed strikes?

No.

Also you wouldn't have more damage even if you could. Even the -2 penalty is enough to stop a significant amount of attacks from hitting early in the game.

Taffimai
2008-11-30, 09:34 AM
In our group(s), that has always been treated as impossible. Mainly because the description of the monk says that 'there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk'.

In essence, we believe that the flurry class feature is actually the result of the dual-wielding unarmed strikes idea, starting with -2/-2 penalties (same as dual-wielding weapons with the two-weapon fighting feat and the off-hand being a light weapon) and then, as a class feature, you gradually get rid of those penalties as you gain levels. This is very much our conjecture and by no means RAW.

Good ideas for improving your damage: get more strength, have a caster cast 'enlarge person' on you (you can get this permanencied, too) and later 'polymorph' (if your DM allows this line of spells), get a monk's belt, take the improved natural attack feat (Monster Manual I), take one of those feats (I'm sure others will be able to name them exactly) that allows you to add a different ability bonus to your damage than strength, certain prestige classes (drunken brawler is one of them).

Eldariel
2008-11-30, 09:35 AM
I always allow it and it causes no issues whatsoever. FAQ was a bit unclear about it - it made it clear that UA can be secondary, but it didn't state if it could be both, primary and secondary at the same time. Still, I see no harm in allowing it - it won't break anything and might make Monk feel more Monkish if you give 'er enough boosts.

ChaosDefender24
2008-11-30, 09:35 AM
Good ideas for improving your damage: Greater Mighty Wallop

2d10 damage die at level 11 (belt, that one feat from ToB) is begging for King of Smack...

Kurald Galain
2008-11-30, 09:46 AM
I always stuff my monk with eversmoking bottles to bring the average party damage down to my level...

Tehnar
2008-11-30, 10:03 AM
You might want to try using the ACF from PHB 2. It removes flurry but allows you to deal double damage as a full round action.

Might be worth it, especially if you combine monks belt, feat from ToB and improved natural attack from MM.

BobVosh
2008-11-30, 10:14 AM
I always stuff my monk with eversmoking bottles to bring the average party damage down to my level...

Don't forget to CC UMD for buffing.

AmberVael
2008-11-30, 12:53 PM
I always stuff my monk with eversmoking bottles to bring the average party damage down to my level...

Really? I always pack mine with unnecessary references to things mostly unrelated to the thread. :smallyuk:

Anywho.
I'd say yes, you can use two weapon fighting with a monk. If you want to argue it by RAW, just point out that unarmed strike is a simple weapon on the equipment table. You want to wield two of them. It's a light weapon, so you can do it without any extra penalties. :smalltongue:

Keld Denar
2008-11-30, 01:47 PM
In our group(s), that has always been treated as impossible. Mainly because the description of the monk says that 'there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk'.

This is kind of a misconception, IMO. When they say that a monk "doesn't have an offhand", its in the same light as a fighter who carries 2 swords, one in each hand, but doesn't claim any extra attacks with them doesn't have an offhand. For example...

Bob the fighter is 6th level and has Two Weapon Fighting. That means Bob has a BAB of +6, allowing him to make 2 attacks, one at +6, one at +1. Bob is holding a long sword in his main hand, and a light flail in his offhand. On Bob's turn, he attacks with his long sword first, with an attack bonus of +6 doing 1x str bonus damage on top of weapon damage. Then Bob attacks with his flail with an attack bonus of +1, and uses this attack to make a trip attempt. His attempt succeeds and his Improved Trip feat triggers, granting him a followup attack. This followup attack hits, and Bob does damage with his flail, adding in 1x str bonus to damage. At no point during this combat round did Bob use his Two Weapon Fighting feat, and none of his attacks were considered "offhand" even though he used both hands to make attacks with two different weapons. If both weapons hit, they would both deal 1x str bonus damage to the target.

Now, in the next round of combat, since Bob's opponent is already tripped from the flail attack, Bob wants to attack more times. This time, Bob declares he's going to Two Weapon Fight, takes his penalties, and starts attacking. His first attack with his long sword attacks at +4 (which includes the -2 for TWF) hits, still doing 1x str bonus damage. He attacks again with his long sword, this time at a bonus of -1 (again due to TWF penalties) and hits, rolling damage with 1x str bonus. Then, Bob attacks a 3rd time, this time with his flail. His AB is +4, same as his first attack with his long sword, but when he hits, he only adds half of his str bonus to weapon damage. This is because the flail attack is now considered an "offhand" attack.

Now, Bob's friend Mark the Monk ALSO has Two Weapon Fighting, and has a BAB of +6. Mark starts a flurry and declares he will use TWF. Mark takes a total penalty of -4 (2 for TWF, 2 for flurry) and his attack routine looks like this: +2/+2/-3/+2, with the final attack at +2 being considered "offhand" thanks to the TWF feat. Mark's first 3 attacks hit, and all deal normal 1x str bonus damage. Mark's 4th attack also hits, but only deals .5x str bonus damage, because its an offhand attack. It doesn't actually matter which of Mark's hands he hits with, or if he uses his feet or head or elbows, or even if he hip checks them. The only differentiator is how much str value the attack gets.

See how this works? No character is considered to have an "offhand" attack unless they claim extra attacks in a round for using one. Even a character without the TWF feat can make an offhand attack, although the penalties are pretty strong for it without the feat, and the character is limited to making one single offhand attack unless he has GTWF or ITWF. You also can't make an offhand attack with the same weapon as your primary attack, thats spelled out in the rules, but nowhere does it say you can't "equip" multiple Unarmed Strikes, since its with any part of your body.

Hope this clears things up.

Thurbane
2008-11-30, 02:09 PM
I'm pretty sure every time I've seen it come up in RAW discussion, it's OK to combine TWF and FoB. The Deep Dwarf Monk in my current party combines Rapid Shot with FoB to throw shuriken (despite us trying to talk him out of it!) :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2008-11-30, 02:20 PM
I'm pretty sure every time I've seen it come up in RAW discussion, it's OK to combine TWF and FoB. The Deep Dwarf Monk in my current party combines Rapid Shot with FoB to throw shuriken (despite us trying to talk him out of it!) :smallbiggrin:

This is true. You can also combine TWF with Rapid Shot as well, as I used in my halfling knife flinger build that I posted on these boards a bit back.

mabriss lethe
2008-11-30, 03:21 PM
From what I remember, YES! You can use both TWF and FoB. NO! It's not a particularly good idea, since your chances to miss go up exponentially. And that's a problem that monks already suffer from.

ocato
2008-11-30, 04:13 PM
If RAW won't let you flurry/TWF with your fists, use a quarterstaff.

However if you're going to do that, Decisive strike + power attack is probably closer to the value you'd like.

Ganurath
2008-11-30, 04:19 PM
Let's go wild with this: Two attacks with a quarterstaff, two attacks with unarmed strike from kicking. Multiweapon fighting, anyone?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-11-30, 04:21 PM
From what I remember, YES! You can use both TWF and FoB. NO! It's not a particularly good idea, since your chances to miss go up exponentially. And that's a problem that monks already suffer from.

Whether it is a good idea depends entirely on your opponent's AC. For "low" AC opponent it might be optimal to combine both TWF and FoB.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-11-30, 04:24 PM
Let's go wild with this: Two attacks with a quarterstaff, two attacks with unarmed strike from kicking. Multiweapon fighting, anyone?

Multiweapon Fighting is not an option. The number of available off-hand attacks are determined by your race's number of normal off-hand attacks.


MULTIWEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]

Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
(My emphasis)

Kurald Galain
2008-11-30, 05:40 PM
Really? I always pack mine with unnecessary references to things mostly unrelated to the thread. :smallyuk:
Oooh, snarky! I think you're unfamiliar with several of the in-jokes on this forum... :smallbiggrin:

It's not unrelated, even. I predict that within 48 hours, a certain person will enter this thread and suggest that the best strategy for a monk is spellcasting.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-30, 05:42 PM
Oooh, snarky! I think you're unfamiliar with several of the in-jokes on this forum... :smallbiggrin:

It's not unrelated, even. I predict that within 48 hours, a certain person will enter this thread and suggest that the best strategy for a monk is spellcasting.

No, by UMDing partially charged wands while in a grapple that was initiated from flurry of blows... on ice!

AmberVael
2008-11-30, 05:45 PM
Oooh, snarky! I think you're unfamiliar with several of the in-jokes on this forum... :smallbiggrin:

It's not unrelated, even. I predict that within 48 hours, a certain person will enter this thread and suggest that the best strategy for a monk is spellcasting.

I'm quite familiar with the ill-fated guide, actually, I just find no reason to mention it here.
There was a legitimate question here, which got serious answers. Nothing about class vs. arguments, or about UMD use, or eversmoking bottles, or the Joker monk in general.

The Glyphstone
2008-11-30, 05:53 PM
Obligatory unarmed swordsage reference?:smallbiggrin:

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-01, 03:37 AM
In the FAQ (downloadable from in the WotC site), the sage says that you can Flurry AND TWFight.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-01, 03:39 AM
In the FAQ (downloadable from in the WotC site), the sage says that you can Flurry AND TWFight.Read the Sig. It's not for show, Sage is an idiot.

turkishproverb
2008-12-01, 03:40 AM
Hmmm.. While Faq is not RAW, that does help.

EDIT: Darn. Ninja'd by the original. Darned Post limit.