With Bozzok being so powerful (speculation)

[silvadel]

I wonder if this couldnt simply turn into a HUGE TRAP for our dwarf bard and liege... I mean all we really know is Boz is at least 4 levels higher than haley. Assuming belkar doesnt have the right stuff here... I could see Elan going to the local tavern in greysky -- asking the wrong questions -- and ending up being more exp for the resident guildmaster of pain.

[Lichtouch]

This would end the comic because the main characters would die at the hands of a minor villian.

In short, no. It will not happen.

[Niley]

Remember that Elan's a Dashing Swordsman - they are Too Pretty To Die :smallbiggrin: . Bozzok will most likely die at the hands of Belkar or Celia soon.

Besides, I wonder why the heck does Haley bother with sending that message to Durkon? How could he possibly get there that quickly, I ask?

[silvadel]

Even if Haley, Belkar, Durkon, and Elan were to all die -- you would still have V out there. Plus even if you ended up with a full TPK -- they could be ressurrected someday by someone.

Hard to consider any level 17+ mastermind type a minor villian. He has to be a player -- we just do not know in what way his piece fits the puzzle yet.

[Querzis]

Besides, I wonder why the heck does Haley bother with sending that message to Durkon? How could he possibly get there that quickly, I ask?

Didnt you get Roy speech to Celia? Haley expect to die. She didnt though she would be able to survive against the entire thieves guild. Durkon wont be able to save her from that but when he finally come to Greysky city then he can resurect everyone. Durkon is base, hes the most important member of the order because hes the only one who can resurect them, its vital he know where they are!

[David Argall]

Hard to consider any level 17+ mastermind type a minor villian. He has to be a player -- we just do not know in what way his piece fits the puzzle yet.
Bozzak is stuck to Greysky. And the plot is not going to stick to Greysky very long. So he is a minor villain, and his level doesn't really matter. In 10? 20? comics, he will be gone and we won't see much, if any, of him again no matter if he lives or dies.

[hamishspence]

stuck in what sense? as a very powerful head of a thieves guild, sure, he can't be away for very long or he will return to find his position usurped.

but if he wants to, he can leave, if there is something he really wants- its not like he dies if he walks more than 10 miles away or something.

[mockingbyrd7]

Even if Haley, Belkar, Durkon, and Elan were to all die -- you would still have V out there. Plus even if you ended up with a full TPK -- they could be ressurrected someday by someone.

Hard to consider any level 17+ mastermind type a minor villian. He has to be a player -- we just do not know in what way his piece fits the puzzle yet.

It's also hard to consider an antagonist who's been around for maybe four strips (not counting Origins) to be a major villain. He may be "major" in that he's powerful, but he is, storywise, a minor antagonist. Like someone already mentioned, as the leader of the Greysky Thieves' Guild, he's bound to Greysky City. If he's around and actively affecting the strip for 100+ more comics, I'll consider calling him a major villain.

EDIT: Hamishspence, I think what David Argall is getting at is that, while Bozzok is not literally forbidden to leave Greysky City limits, he can't go too far because he's the high-level leader of a notorious Thieves' Guild.

[hamishspence]

tied to the city- but how elastic is the cord tying him there? and is him leaving for a few days implausible? I've seen a lot of fantasy where the Ruler of the Thieves of the Kingdom actually has to leave the capital city, to put down thieves in the hinterlands who shirk their obligations.

[chiasaur11]

He's also minor goal wise.

What does Xykon want?

The world. Redcloak, same deal. Heck, even Kobuta wanted one of the biggest cities on the continent.

Bozzok just wants to keep his control of one city. And not even total control. And that makes him a small fry.

[newcresty]

also, bozzok desn't have anything against the order of the stick, he has his grudge with Haley cause she's a rogue (thief) who doesn't belong to his own guild (mafia), so he has to kill any competence, also, altough i haven't read origins, it seem he has something personal with her too, with the rest of the order? don't think so.

[FujinAkari]

Hard to consider any level 17+ mastermind type a minor villian. He has to be a player -- we just do not know in what way his piece fits the puzzle yet.

Nitpick: There are no players, merely PCs and NPCs. It is difficult to call Bozzack a PC, since he sits in one place and manages a theives' guild, rather than adventuring.

Miko had more claim to PC-status, though of course even she wasn't one.

[silvadel]

I said player -- in the context of being important in the world -- has his thumb on the dierolls of fate -- knows what is going on and acts on it -- etc.

Not that he is a pc.

[Aquillion]

I do agree that it kinda stretches credibility that a level 17+ rogue would just sit in one place and run one small part of a single city. Still, levels mean different things in different settings -- it wouldn't be that odd in the Forgotten Realms, say, where there seems to be a high-level NPC under every bridge. Whereas in Eberron, for instance, there's probably only two or three level 17+ NPCs in the whole setting -- the only one I can think off the top of my head is worshiped as a god.

We've seen a lot of epic level characters (compared to most settings), so it's likely that the OOTS universe overall is pretty oriented towards high-level NPCs.

[hamishspence]

we know he's head of the Thieves Guild of Greysky city, but we don't know how powerful the guild is, or whether Greysky is the capital of a kingdom or not.

In some settings, the thieves guild leader is the unofficial ruler: Orbakh of Westgate (FRCS) has the city ruler under his control. It does help that he's a vampire and a Manshoon clone.

also, if the city is hub of the kingdom, he may have a direct line to the rest of the kingdom- in some fiction, the head Thief resides in capital, but controls thievery and criminal activity all over the kingdom.

[David Argall]

tied to the city- but how elastic is the cord tying him there? and is him leaving for a few days implausible? I've seen a lot of fantasy where the Ruler of the Thieves of the Kingdom actually has to leave the capital city, to put down thieves in the hinterlands who shirk their obligations.
Not particularly elastic.
Using just OOTS data, we have that Haley had been operating pretty much just outside city limits for quite some time and Bozzak made no effort to get her.
If we get real, we find even more reason to think Bozzak is not going to leave Greysky. He's got a job. It's a good one and he would be risking it by leaving town. Al Capone ruled Chicago. He didn't visit Detroit.
And he would have to leave town for a very long time, much longer than a few days. The party is heading to another continent, in a world where another city is far away.

Now the very idea of a ruler of the thieves of a [non-small] kingdom is nonsense. It is just further than a criminal gang can reach. However, for our current purposes, we still get the same answer. Haley and friends are fleeing both city and kingdom, and we don't expect them back. So Bozzak is too busy to chase after them.

[hamishspence]

it may be "nonsense" but both Tamora Pierce and David Eddings used it (and Eddings used it a Lot.)

[Latch]

In some settings, the thieves' guilds are stable enough for the leaders to take leave for a while, but this is the OotS Thieves' Guild. In this guild, a few of the members are known for trying to get ahead at others' expense.

For instance,
Hank was skimming off the top for a long, long time according to Haley in OtOotPCs.

So I don't think Bozzok would be able to trust his inferiors to stay down there while he was gone.

[rayne_dragon]

In some settings, the thieves' guilds are stable enough for the leaders to take leave for a while, but this is the OotS Thieves' Guild. In this guild, a few of the members are known for trying to get ahead at others' expense.

For instance,
Hank was skimming off the top for a long, long time according to Haley in OtOotPCs.

So I don't think Bozzok would be able to trust his inferiors to stay down there while he was gone.

I agree. Look at Crystal, who is probably the next most powerful character in the guild. If Bozzok leaves, Crystal would either be in charge or at least not have anyone to supervise her. Either way she's not someone who should be left on her own for too long.

On the other hand I can't see him letting Haley and Belkar go now - since his guild has been all but exterminated, so he's probably going to get killed or at least beaten enough that he gives up on them... although maybe he and Crystal will join the Linear Guild if that happens.

[Latch]

Hmmm...:smallconfused:

"Hi, we hear that you hate the Order of the Stick. Can we join your group?"

:nale: "Well, you're really tall and well built for your class, so you can join."

:sabine: "What does that have to do with anything?"

:nale: "Are you kidding me? He's Belkar's opposite!"

"And me?"

:nale: "Well, you have a clearly defined gender, so you can join too!"

:sabine: "I thought we weren't doing the opposite thing anymore..."

:smallbiggrin:

This doesn't work, but with some polishing I could make it work...:smallamused:

[BG]

The assumption that Bozzok is level 17 is even a bit of a stretch. Remember that the Giant has said he refrains from giving the PCs distinct levels or abilities, just so that he has room to make jokes about anything in the future.

He has also said that the OotS is between 9th and 12th levels, so again, there's a lot of leeway there. Bozzok isn't 17th level necessarily, just 4 levels (at least) higher than Haley. And yeah, he's a pretty minor antagonist. He's just the leader of a thieves guild. We aren't going to see a TPK from the leader of a thieves' guild. Plus, I'd wager that story-structure-wise, we'll likely see the Greysky group take care of their situation on their own, in the same way that the Azure Fleet group did, then reuniting.

[Douglas]

That statement was made quite some time ago, though, and at least some details have gotten much more precise since then - the Class and Level Geekery thread has quite a number of details with very few contradictions, none of them recent. The level of the entire party was pretty firmly pegged at 13 right before the Azure City battle, so we can state with a high degree of confidence that Haley is at least level 13. Bozzok's ability to use flanking to sneak attack her thus makes him a 17th level or higher rogue.

[Zevox]

Hard to consider any level 17+ mastermind type a minor villian. He has to be a player -- we just do not know in what way his piece fits the puzzle yet.
Being high level doesn't necessarily make you an important person, just a physically (or magically, if a caster) powerful one. Whether you become an important person in the world about you depends on how you use that power.

And Bozzok, a "mastermind type"? Really, how do you figure? We haven't seen much of him, but while he doesn't seem stupid, he hardly seems like a "mastermind." The most cunning thing he's done is display he has the knowledge necessary to run the Thieves' Guild efficiently when he distracted Haley with his commentary on why he got rid of her father. That's fine for making him a major player within his city and getting him in charge of his Guild and whatever pieces of Greysky they can take control of, but it doesn't make him any more important than that. And as others have pointed out, we've no indication that he has any ambitions beyond simply maintaining his current situation and improving the Guild's revenue.

Honestly, odds are that Bozzok and the rest of his guild are going to be pretty minor antagonists overall. Perhaps Belkar will kill them off in 5 strips or so with or without the help of the girls or the Cleric, perhaps they'll get away, but either way, I'd be willing to bet we never see them again once the group leaves Greysky. At least not in anything other than perhaps a flashback or cameo or somesuch.

Zevox

[Roderick_BR]

I call the precedent "giant dwarf with a hammer".
Nah, Durkon is more combat oriented than Haley. Bozzok would, at least, be very wounded by Belkar, and Durkon would still be backed up by Elan.
If they just find Elan and try to bait him, Durkon would likely be ready to rescue him (unless there are trees involved). That not counting on how Bozzok doesn't know Elan's and Durkon's abilities. Power-wise, Bozzok would need more powerful combat-oriented henchmen at his side.

[Aquillion]

Being high level doesn't necessarily make you an important person, just a physically (or magically, if a caster) powerful one. Whether you become an important person in the world about you depends on how you use that power.Like I said, it really depends on the setting. In Eberron, the only high level NPCs are the leaders of major empires and a lich who is worshipped as a deity (The Lord of Blades, who is considered a threat to the entire world in part because of his personal capabilities in combat, is something like level 12.) In Forgotten Realms you've got level 20 characters working as bartenders.

[David Argall]

Like I said, it really depends on the setting.

The setting is OOTS and 17th level NPC have been very rare to date. Haley's comment about not knowing if there are any 17th level clerics in the world does not mean there are none, but it does mean they are quite rare.

[Douglas]

The setting is OOTS and 17th level NPC have been very rare to date.
In fact, I believe Bozzok is the second highest level character in the comic known to be currently active. Xykon is epic, but I don't think anyone else is known to be more than 14th or 15th level - Redcloak's best spells shown to date are only 8th level and if he had any 9th level spells I think he would have been shown using them in the Azure City battle, so I think he's no higher than 16th if not 15th, and I don't think anyone else has evidence for even being that high.

[Zevox]

In Forgotten Realms you've got level 20 characters working as bartenders.
That's an exaggeration, you know. I don't know much about Eberron - just enough to know I don't care to learn any more, really - but the Realms, at least pre-4E, I know well, and the closest thing to that I can think of in there is some retired adventurers who make it perhaps into their teen-levels then decide to settle down and live out the rest of their lives in peace, such as Mirt the Moneylender, a Rogue 5/Fighter 8 in the city of Waterdeep, and they're exceptional individuals themselves. Even in the Realms, getting to epic levels isn't common at all.

In any event, it sounds as though those characters you described from Eberron were actually ambitious and using their high levels well, which was my point. Personal power alone doesn't instantly make you important to the world at large, it's what you do with it that counts. Bozzok may be powerful, but if the extent of his ambitions is to run his Guild and the extent of his cunning is what is required to do so, he isn't ever going to be anything more than he is now.

Zevox

[Chronos]

In fact, I believe Bozzok is the second highest level character in the comic known to be currently active. Xykon is epic, but I don't think anyone else is known to be more than 14th or 15th levelDon't forget the 18th-level incarnum user (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) who's working for Redcloak :smalltongue:

And Serini and Girard, of the Order of the Scribble, might still be alive, and are presumably also epic.

[Zevox]

Don't forget the 18th-level incarnum user (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) who's working for Redcloak :smalltongue:

And Serini and Girard, of the Order of the Scribble, might still be alive, and are presumably also epic.
Plus it's likely that Soon was epic level, and certainly would have had an epic CR as a Ghost (or whatever equivalent sort of being he was). How well he fared vs Xykon, a known epic-level character with a potent template stacked on him, certainly shows that.

Zevox

[Aquillion]

Plus it's likely that Soon was epic level, and certainly would have had an epic CR as a Ghost (or whatever equivalent sort of being he was). How well he fared vs Xykon, a known epic-level character with a potent template stacked on him, certainly shows that.

ZevoxThey said 'currently known to be active'; Soon isn't, anymore, and we don't really know whether Serini and Girard are still active or not (although the fact that none of the others were really "active" in events outside of the small area near their gate -- and that, as far as we know, they're both members of relatively short-lived races -- implies that they probably aren't so active at this point, assuming they're still alive. Girard looked older than Dorukan in the flashbacks, and seems to have been some kind of fighter/mage, partially dependent on physical stats.)

[Zevox]

They said 'currently known to be active'; Soon isn't, anymore, and we don't really know whether Serini and Girard are still active or not (although the fact that none of the others were -- and that, as far as we know, they're both members of relatively short-lived races -- implies that they probably aren't so active at this point, assuming they're still alive. Girard looked older than Dorukan in the flashbacks, and seems to have been some kind of fighter/mage, partially dependent on physical stats.)
Fair enough. Although there are counterarguments that could be made there, such as how Serini is a Halfling, which means her lifespan is significantly longer than a human's (potentially up to nearly double the maximum lifespan of a human), and she doesn't appear to have been particularly old during her adventures; or how Girard, being a wizard of apparently significant power (he was powerful enough to ward his Gate with illusions and be able to trust they would defend it, after all) could have found ways to extend his lifespan.

In any event, my main point in mentioning Soon though was just to note that we have seen other characters during the comic's events that are more powerful than Bozzok, even if he isn't active anymore.

Zevox