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Lycar
2008-11-30, 12:08 PM
I have been wondering about armours lately.

The D&D systemas written is made for fun and easy play, not realism or 'simulationism'.

Still, let's face it, with the current system, the only armours that see use are either chain shirt or full plate, with the occasional mithril breast plate.

Now Unearthed Arcana already offers a slightly more differentiated armour system where your ability to avoid being hit relies on your level and class, rather then the armour you wear. Armour does, instead, offer some damage reduction.

For example, even full plate offers only an AC bonus of +4. Even a first level fighter can get a defense bonus of +6 under the Unearthed Arcana rules. So it's a tradeoff between not getting hit at all or taking less damage from a hit.

Now while this might be impractical for a tabletop game (or not, depending on your personal opinion), for a PbP game a more complex rule wouldn't really slow down the game.

So, taking a heavy dose of inspiration from other RPGs out there, let us introduce hit zones: A normal attack always has to deal with the best damage reduction of the whole set of armour (normally the body armour and excluding helmets). If you aim for a body part that the specific set of armour does not cover, you incur a penalty to your to-hit roll, but you circumnavigate the DR of the armour.

Suddenly it makes a difference to wear a leather armour that covers your whole body, or a chain shirt that only protects chest and abdomen.

Hit zones/location:

There are 7 hit locations.

Head: Protected by helmets. +4 on AC for an attack aimed at the head.

Chest: Protected by usually all armours. +6 on AC for an attack aimed at the chest area (*)

Abdomen: Protected by usually all armours. +4 to AC for an attack aimed at the abdominal area.

Sword arm: Protected by arm armour and/or greaves. +4 to AC for an attack aimed at the sword arm.

Shield arm: Protected by arm armour and/or greaves. +6 to AC for an attack aimed at the shield arm.

Legs: Protected by leg armour and/or greaves. +2 to AC for an attack aimed at the legs. (**)

(*) Important for armours that only cover the front side of the torso/abdomen.

(**) Trip attacks with weapons ought to need to aim for the legs. They are touch attacks anyway, so an extra +2 to the enemies AC won't really hurt. But this gives some love to the people who toke the pain of tripping with an unarmed strike. Or taking the Improved Trip feat for that matter.


Changes to armours:

Listed are the DR for the hit locations head (H),chest (C), abdomen (Ab), right (sword) arm (RA), shield (left) arm (LA) and legs (L).

When pieces of armour get combined (as in, a padded armour worn under a chain shirt or breastplate), ADD the DR but use the higher of ACP and the lower of MDex.

Note that to make armour proficiencies better, Light Armour Proficieny allows you to ignore 1 point of ACP, Medium Armour Proficieny ignores 2 and Heavy Armour Proficiency 3 points of ACP.

Also, if you use mithral armour, the armour still counts as it's original category for the purpose of proficiency requirements. So a mithral full plate still requires heavy armour proficieny to wear!With the damage reduction rules, heavy armour suddenly becomes a lot more valuable. So classes that get Heavy Armour Proficiency actually have an advantage.

So a fighter could wear a chain shirt and have an effective ACP of 0.

The barbarian can still wear mithral breastplate and use his barbarian features, but to wear it proficiently, dip in a class with HAP or get the feat!

Also, since DR values are high, every hit still deals at least 1 point of damage!


Light armours:

Padded Armour: "Padded armour features quilted layers of of cloth an batting." Also, this is what you wear under a suit of maille or plate to prevent chafing. A suit of chainmail, scale mail or any of the heavy armours already includes padded armour as an undergarment.

DR: H: -, C: 1, Ab: 1, RA: 1, LA: 1, L: 1 ACP: 1 , MDex: 8, AC +1
(Alternativly, this could also be DR 1/piercing, seeing that the suit cushions blows and offers some modes protection from cuts but if woefully inadequate versus impaling weapons)


Leather Armour: "The breastplate and shoulder protectors of this armour are made of leather that has been stiffened by boiling in oil. The rest of the armour is made of softer and more flexible leather."

DR: H: -, C: 2, Ab: 2, RA: 1, LA: 1, L: 1 ACP: 1 , MDex: 6, AC +1
(Alternativly consider the DR on arms and legs to be 1/bludgeoning. Leather is tough and thus cut and puncture resistant but doesn't cushion blows very well. Can't be combined with padded armour.)


Leather Greaves: A new armour item. Leather greaves add +1 DR to arms and legs but increase ACP by +1 and lower MDex by 1. Can be added to armours that don't already offer arm/leg protection of 3 or better, or worn on their own. 5 gp, 5 lb.

DR: H: -, C: -, Ab: -, RA: +1, LA: +1, L: +1 ACP: +1 , MDex: -1


Studded Leather Armour: "This armour is made from tough but flexible leather (not hardened leather, as with normal leather armour) reinforced with close-set metal rivets." A step up from leather armour, the metal rivets increase protection value for the body.

DR: H: -, C: 3, Ab: 3, RA: 2, LA: 2, L: 2 ACP: 2 , MDex: 5, AC +2
(Alternativly, since the body armour is flexible, consider the protection vs. bludgeoning attacks to be 1 less for the entire suit.)


Chain Shirt: "A chain shirt protects your torso while leaving your limbs free and mobile. It includes a layer of quilted fabric worn underneath to prevent chafing and to cushion the impact of blows. A chain shirt comes with a steel cap." The main advantage of a chain shirt is the possibility to hide it under normal clothing. You can walk around and look unarmoured.

DR: H: 3, C: 4, Ab: 4, RA: 0, LA: 0, L: 0 ACP: 3 , MDex: 4 AC +2
(You can wear padded armour under the chain shirt instead of the padded vest that comes with the armour. In that case, add the DR of the padded armour to the arms and legs ONLY. You can add greaves instead or on top of that. If you wear just the vest, treat it as padded armour with no arm or leg protection and no ACP or MDex limit.)


Leather Helmet: New armour item. A helmet made from leather and with padding to protect the skull from cuts, stabs and blows. . 2gp, 2 lb.

DR: H: 2, C: -, Ab: -, RA: -, LA: -, L: - ACP: - , MDex: -


Steel Cap: New armour item. A skullcap made from metal. Can be hidden under a hood or cowl. 10 gp 4 lb. Included in a chain shirt.

DR: H: 3, C: -, Ab: -, RA: -, LA: -, L: - ACP: - , MDex: -


Chain Coif: Like a hood made from chain mail, this covers the head and neck. Protects against cuts and stabs, less effective against bludgeoning. 20 gp. 6lb.

DR: H: 4, C: -, Ab: -, RA: -, LA: -, L: - ACP: +1 , MDex: -
(Optionally consider the DR to be 2 vs. bludgeoning.)


Helmet: The standard metal helmet that comes with heavy armours and breastplates. Protects the head and (partially) the face of the wearer. On it's own it costs 15 gp and weights 5 lb.

DR: H: 5, C: -, Ab: -, RA: -, LA: -, L: - ACP: +2 , MDex: -


Visored Helmet: What would a knight be without it? Slightly more heavy then a simple helmet, the visored helmet offers added protection while closed and reduced impairment to visibility and hearing while opened. 20 gp, 6 lb.

DR: H: 5, C: -, Ab: -, RA: -, LA: -, L: - ACP: +2 , MDex: - (open)
DR: H: 7, C: -, Ab: -, RA: -, LA: -, L: - ACP: +4 , MDex: -, AC +1 (closed)
(Opening or closing the helmet counts as a move action. A character with at least 1 point of BAB can close the helmet combined with an actual movement, just like drawing a weapon.)


Medium Armours:

Hide Armour: "This armour is prepared from multiple layers of leather and animal hides. It is stiff and hard to move in. Druids, who wear only nonmetallic armour, favour hide."

DR: H: 0, C: 3, Ab: 3, RA: 2, LA: 2, L: 2 ACP: 4 , MDex: 3, AC +2
(What studded leather does with metal rivets, hide does with extra layers of more leather. Can't be combined with padded armour but you can add greaves.)


Scale Mail: "This armour consists of a coat and leggings (and perhaps a seperate skirt) of leather covered with overlapping pieces of metal, much like the scales of a fish. The suit includes gauntlets." Cheaper and lighter then a full suit of chain, this armour offers only slightly better protection then studded leather.

DR: H: 0, C: 3, Ab: 3, RA: 3, LA: 3, L: 3 ACP: 5 , MDex: 3, AC +2


Chainmail: "This armour is made of interlocking metal rings. It includes a layer of quilted fabric worn underneath to prevent chafing and to cushion the impact of blows. Several layers of mail are hung over vital areas. Most of the armour's weight hangs from the shoulders, making chainmail uncomfortable to wear for long periods of time. The suit includes gauntlets." You can take off the chain part and sleep in the padded armour instead.

DR: H: 0, C: 4, Ab: 4, RA: 3, LA: 3, L: 3 ACP: 6 , MDex: 2, AC +3
(Chainmail is flexible and thus has trouble dealing with crushing blows. Optionally, you can consider the DR to be 1 less vs. bludgeoning attacks.)


Breastplate: "A breastplate covers your front and your back. It comes with a helmet and greaves (plates to cover your lower legs). A light suit or skirt of studded leather beneath the breastplate protects your limbs without restricting movement much."

DR: H: 5, C: 6, Ab: 4, RA: 3, LA: 3, L: 3 ACP: 4 , MDex: 3, AC +3
(For sake of simplicity, this includes leather greaves for the limbs.)


Cuirass: New armour item. A cuirass is just the front torso armour from the breastplate. As a seperate item of armour it can be worn over padded, leather, studded leather, chain shirt, chain mail and scale mail armour (other armours are too bulky to allow the addition of the cuirass or already include a breastplate). This adds +3 to the DR for chest and +1 DR for abdomen only, increases the ACP by 3 and lowers MDex by 2. The combination also counts as a medium armour. 80 gp, 10 lb.

DR: H: -, C: +3, Ab: +1, RA: -, LA: -, L: - ACP: +3 , MDex: -2, AC +1

(Optional rule: Since this armour only covers the front, a flanked character can have his unprotected back attacked with an +6 to AC.)


Heavy Armours


Splint Mail: "This armour is made of narrow vertical strips of metal riveted to a backing of leather that is worn over cloth padding. Flexible chainmail protects the joints. The suit includes gauntlets." And a helmet.

DR: H: 5, C: 5, Ab: 5, RA: 4, LA: 4, L: 4 ACP: 7 , MDex: 0, AC +3


Banded Mail: "This armour made of of overlapping strips of metal sewn to a backing of leather and chainmail. The strips cover vulnerable areas, while the chain and leather protect the joints and provide freedom of movement. Straps and buckles distribute the weight evenly. The suit includes gauntlets." And a helmet.

DR: H: 5, C: 6, Ab: 6, RA: 4, LA: 4, L: 4 ACP: 6 , MDex: 1, AC +3


Half Plate: "This armour is a combination of chainmail with metal plates (breastplate, epaullettes, elbow guards, gauntlets, tasses and greaves) covering vital areas. Buckles and straps hold the whole suit together and distribute the weight, but the armour still hangs more loosely than full plate. The suit includes gauntlets." And a helmet.

DR: H: 5, C: 7, Ab: 5, RA: 5, LA: 5, L: 5 ACP: 7 , MDex: 0, AC +4


Full Plate: "This armour consists of shaped and fitted metal plates, riveted and interlocked to cover the entire body. The suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and a thick layer of padding that is worn underneath the armour. ..." etc., as in PHB.

DR: H: 5(7), C: 7, Ab: 6, RA: 5, LA: 5, L: 5 ACP: 6 , MDex: 1, AC +4


Interaction of DR armour and things like sneak attack:

Obviously, the DR armour system only works reasonably as long as the amount of damage any attack inflicts stays within certain limits.

A DR of 2 from leather vs. DR 6 from a breastplate makes a difference if your enemies are inflicting 1d8+1 long sword damage. It is less impressive vs. an ogre doing 2d8+6 or an rogue sneak attacking for 1d4+5d6.

In these cases you'd rather not be hit at all. So being lightly armoured actually is better here as it helps in not being hit.

The UA defense bonus rules make you chose between getting the armour DR and AC bonus OR your defense bonus, but not both. This makes armour totally useless after a certain level. To alleviate this problem, I would suggest you allow to add the defense bonus up to the MDex value of the total armour. That is a 1st level fighter in a chain shirt still gets his +1 from the chain shirt and a defense bonus of +4. Alternativly, same fighter could wear a banded mail, getting an AC bonus of +3 and a defense bonus of +1. Note that the chain shirt fighter has a better touch AC since defense bonus adds to that too, while the banded mail fighter can soak up more damage.

So there are a few ways to make this work. For exmple, include the vitality and wound system from Unearthed Arcana with a few twists:

In the variant, you deduct damage from vitality first before you suffer actual wound points. A critical hit on the other hand inflicts wound points directly and ignores any DR a creature has.

Variant: Criticals don't ignore the DR from your armour. Instead you roll randomly which hit location gets hit: 1d20, 1-6 legs (odd left leg, even right leg) , 7-8 abdomen, 9-14 arms (odd left (shield) arm, even right (sword) arm), 15-18 chest, 19-20 head.

Remember to rule that all successfull attacks inflict at least 1 point of damage.

Now add sneak attacks: They do their normal vitality point damage (representing the sneak attack tiring the character or forcing him into a precarious situation). They do not do increased wound damage though. Instead, a character with sneak attack can ignore 1 point of DR for every die of sneak attack he has for the purpose of causing wound damage only.

If a sneak attack has damage left after reducing a target's vitality to 0, just count this as a normal critical hit without any benefit from sneak attack.

After that, each sneak attack does NORMAL WEAPON damage but ignores 1 point of DR for each die of sneak attack.

Also, it is vitally important to curb power attack: Only 1:1 even for 2-handed weapons! They already are at an advantage due to their higher damage output. Normal two-handed power attacking and jumping and whatnot would render even full plate irrelevant!

Okay. Now we do some wound points. Why bother with hit locations?

Because taking wounds should mean something:

Leg: A successfull wounding attack to a leg gives you a free trip attempt. You can't be tripped back if you fail, you don't get an extra attack from Improved Trip. Foe's DEX is reduced by 2. 3 leg wounds and a bipedal opponent is automatically prone.

Abdomen: A wound to the abdomen causes an additional 1d4 points of damage, reduces the target's STR and DEX by 2. 3 abdominal wounds knock the foe unconscious immediately for 1d20 rounds. Even after regaining consciousness, the foe is considered disabled until all the abdominal wounds have been healed.

Arm: Sword arm: Foe suffers -2 to BAB, a -1 to weapon damage and -1 to AC (can't parry as efficiently any more). 3rd wound disables the arm, foe drops whatever he's holding.
Shield arm: If using a shield, -2 to AC, if wielding off-hand weapon as sword arm, if hands free, no effect. 3rd wound disables arm, foe drops whatever he's holding.

Chest: A wound causes -2 to STR and CON as well as 1d4 extra points of damage. 3 chest wounds knock the foe unconscious immediately for 1d20 rounds. Even after regaining consciousness, the foe is considered disabled until all the chest wounds have been healed.

Head: A head wound causes -2 to INT and WIS and reduces the foe's initiative count by 2d6 points. If this reduces the foes to below 0 initiative, he loses his action for the current round and instead gets a new initiative count of 1 higher then the highest initiative count in the fight. 3 head wounds knock the foe unconscious immediately for 1d20 rounds. Even after regaining consciousness, the foe is considered disabled until all the head wounds have been healed.

How does it play?


Example fight:

3rd. lv fighter with attack bonus +7, a greatsword for 2d6+4 damage. Wears a suit of chain mail + cuirass and a leather helmet. Has Weapon Focus and Power Attack.

Chain mail:
R: H: 0, C: 4, Ab: 4, RA: 3, LA: 3, L: 3 ACP: 6 , MDex: 2, AC +3
Cuirass:
R: H: -, C: +3, Ab: +1, RA: -, LA: -, L: - ACP: +3 , MDex: -2, AC +1
Leather Helmet:
DR: H: 2, C: -, Ab: -, RA: -, LA: -, L: - ACP: - , MDex: -

Total armour DR: H 2, C 7, Ab 5, RA 3, LA 3 , ACP: 6, MDex 0
Wound points 14, Vitality points 28, AC 14 (defense bonus would be +7 but chain + cuirass leave him with a MDex of 0, so no defense bonus for him.
Without the cuirass, he would have MDex 2, raising his AC to 16, plus possibly up to +2 for DEX. Maybe he's clumsy. Maybe he figures that anyone who wants to hit his arms or legs takes a -2 to his to-hit anyway and rather goes with more protection.))

VS

3rd. lv rogue with attack bonus +5, a rapier for 1d6+1 damage. Wears a chain shirt. Has Weapon Finesse and Improved Feint.

Chain Shirt:
DR: H: 3, C: 4, Ab: 4, RA: 0, LA: 0, L: 0 ACP: 3 , MDex: 4 AC +2

Effective ACP 2 thanks to Light Armour Proficiency.
Wound points 12, Vitality points 19, AC 19 (DEX 16 = +3, +2 from chain shirt and his maximum defense bonus of +4)


Round 1: Fgt: Vit: 28,W: 14,AB 7,AC 14/Rog: Vit: 19, W: 12,AB 5, AC 19
Rogue gains initiative, bluffs for sneak attack: 1d20+8 = 27
Fighter rolls Sense Motive: 1d20+2 = 13 (low wisdom hurts folks...)

Rogue rolls attack: 1d20 +5 = 7 / miss. (note that the rogue could possibly ignore the fighters DEX bonus to AC. Except the fighter doesn't have any due to his MDex of 0.)
Fighter rolls attack: 1d20 +7 =8 / miss.

Round 2: Fgt: Vit: 28,W: 14,AB 7,AC 14/Rog: Vit: 19, W: 12,AB 5, AC 19
Rogue bluffs for sneak attack: 1d20+8 = 12
Fighter rolls Sense Motive: 1d20+2 = 5

Rogue rolls attack: 1d20 +5 = 25 / possible crit, confirmation roll: 1d20 +5 = 20 , critical sneak attack hit!

*Right now things get interesting: We mentioned that criticals do wounds but sneak attack doesn't count for wounds. Solution: As long as the foe has vitality left, that gets reduced instead.

Damage: 1d6+1 = 2 rapier, 2d6 = 8 sneak attack damage, location 1d20 = 11 -> Wound the shield arm!

So fighter takes 8 points of vitality damage, which gets not reduced by armour on account of being a critical hit, the wound damage to the arm gets reduced to 1 (minimum damage, remember?) but since he's a two-hand fighter, his left arm is also a sword arm and he takes -2 to BAB, -1 to weapon damage and -1 to AC.

Ouch!

Fighter rolls attack: 1d20 +5 = 21 / damage 2d6+4 = 13
Since this is a mormal hit, chain shirt body armour reduces that by 4 points for a total of 9 points of vitality damage.

Round 3: Fgt: Vit: 20,W: 13,AB 5,AC 13/Rog: Vit: 10,W: 12,AB 5,AC 19
Rogue bluffs for sneak attack: 1d20+8 = 10
Fighter rolls Sense Motive: 1d20+2 = 21 (he's finally catching on :smallwink:)

Rogue rolls attack: 1d20 +5 = 16 / damage 1d6+1 = 3
Fighter rolls attack: 1d20 +5 =11 / miss.

Fighter's combo of chain mail and cuirass gives a DR of 7. So unless the rogue crits or sneak attacks, he can never do more then 1 pt. of damage with a hit.

Round 4: Fgt: Vit: 19,W: 13,AB 5,AC 13/Rog: Vit: 10,W: 12,AB 5,AC 19
Rogue bluffs for sneak attack: 1d20+8 = 14
Fighter rolls Sense Motive: 1d20+2 = 18

Rogue rolls attack, but decides to go for the sword arm (+4 to AC): 1d20 +5 = 17 / damage 1d6+1 = 2

The aimed strike hits but again the damage is reduced to 1. Bad luck.
Fighter rolls attack: 1d20 +5 =21, damage 2d6+3 = 7 (rememnber, -1 to damage because of arm wound).

Since this wasn't an aimed attack, full chain shirt DR applies, reducing this to 3 pts. of damage.


Round 5: Fgt: Vit: 18,W: 13,AB 5,AC 13/Rog: Vit: 7,W: 12,AB 5,AC 19

Rogue bluffs for sneak attack: 1d20+8 = 15
Fighter rolls Sense Motive: 1d20+2 = 14

Rogue rolls attack, goes for the sword arm again (+4 to AC): 1d20 +5 = 19 / damage 1d6+1 = 7, sneak attack 2d6 = 5.

Total damage 12 points and while a normal hit would have to contend with fighters's body armour of 7, this hit to the arm only gets reduced by the chain shirt DR of 3 for a total of 9 points.

Fighter rolls attack: Getting slightly desperate, fighter goes for a leg hit (+2 to AC): 1d20 +5 =25, possible crit, confirm: 1d20+5 = 17, not enough against 19+2 for leg shot. Still, it is a hit. Damage 2d6+3 = 14

That hurts. Rogue is down to 5 wound points, plus this is a leg wound. Not only does this reduce rogue's DEX by 2 (and thus both his AB and AC by 1), fighter also gets a free trip!

Opposed trip check: Fighter: 1d20+3 = 8, Rogue: 1d20+2 = 14 (reduced DEX of 14 is still better then STR 12) At least he can retain his footing.


Round 6: Fgt: Vit: 9,W: 13,AB 5,AC 13/Rog: Vit: 0,W: 5,AB 4,AC 18

Rogue bluffs for sneak attack: 1d20+8 = 15
Fighter rolls Sense Motive: 1d20+2 = 22

Rogue should probably surrender. As a hardened criminal, he goes for fighter's least armoured spot: The head.

Rogue rolls attack, goes for the head (+4 to AC): 1d20 +4 = 10 / miss

Fighter rolls attack, feeling confident that a simple hit will end this fight:
1d20 +5 =11 / miss.


Round 7: Fgt: Vit: 9,W: 13,AB 5,AC 13/Rog: Vit: 0,W: 5,AB 4,AC 18

Rogue bluffs for sneak attack: 1d20+8 = 13
Fighter rolls Sense Motive: 1d20+2 = 13 (close call here...)

Rogue rolls attack, goes for the head (+4 to AC): 1d20 +4 = 15 / miss !

Fighter rolls attack: 1d20 +5 =10 / miss.


Round 8: Fgt: Vit: 9,W: 13,AB 5,AC 13/Rog: Vit: 0,W: 5,AB 4,AC 18

Rogue bluffs for sneak attack: 1d20+8 = 27
Fighter rolls Sense Motive: 1d20+2 = 19 (nice roll but no chance)

Rogue rolls attack, goes for the head (+4 to AC): 1d20 +4 = 20 , damage 1d6+1 = 7.

Finally a good hit. Fighter only has a leather helmet with DR 2, so still 5 points of damage.

Fighter rolls attack: 1d20 +5 =11 / miss. Streak of bad luck here...


Round 9: Fgt: Vit: 4,W: 13,AB 5,AC 13/Rog: Vit: 0,W: 5,AB 4,AC 18

Rogue bluffs for sneak attack: 1d20+8 = 19
Fighter rolls Sense Motive: 1d20+2 = 12

Rogue rolls attack, hopes that the sneak attack will get past the DR:
1d20 +4 = 22, possible rapier crit! Confirm: 1d20 +4 = 24!
Damage 1d6+1 = 4 (no multiplication under vitality point rules, remember?), sneak attack = 7

Okay so again, sneak attack damage doesn't count for wounds. So fighter's vitality just goes to 0. The 4 points of damage again get reduced to minimum 1 damage to wounds by fighter's armour, but he takes a wound to 1d20 = 9
-> Left arm is it again. Another -2 to BAB and -1 to AC and weapon damage !


Fighter rolls attack: It's looking bad. With a mere +3 to hit, fighter needs a 15 or better to score. 1d20 +3 =16 / miss.


Round 10: Fgt: Vit: 0,W: 12,AB 3,AC 12/Rog: Vit: 0,W: 5,AB 4,AC 18

Rogue bluffs for sneak attack: 1d20+8 = 13
Fighter rolls Sense Motive: 1d20+2 = 16

Rogue rolls attack, goes for the shield arm (+6 to AC) figuring that he will inflict another injury on a hit and that that a 3rd wound will disable the fighter's left arm. Bad for someone wielding a greatsword:
1d20 +4 = 13 / miss

Fighter rolls attack: Fighter needs a 15 or better to score. 1d20 +3 =14 / miss.


Round 11: Fgt: Vit: 0,W: 12,AB 3,AC 12/Rog: Vit: 0,W: 4,AB 4,AC 18

Rogue bluffs for sneak attack: 1d20+8 = 18
Fighter rolls Sense Motive: 1d20+2 = 12

Rogue rolls attack, goes for the legs this time (+2 to AC) since they are easier to hit: 1d20 +4 = 22, another possible crit! Confirm: 1d20 +4 =14, it is a critical! Damage 1d6 +1 = 5.

No damage doubling under Vitality Point rules and rogue has already shaved off all of fighter's vitality. So what good is his sneak attack? He gets to deduct his 2 sneak attack dice fom fighter's leg armour of 4. So his 5 point attack, which would normally have been reduced to 1 point now still inflicts 3 points of damage.

Also, fighter takes -2 to DEX (also reducing his AC !) and suffers a trip attack from rogue (oh the humility!). Opposed check: Rogue: 1d20+1 = 11, Fighter: 1d20+3= 18.

Fighter rolls attack: 1d20 +3 =17 / miss. Dice can really be mean...


Round 11: Fgt: Vit: 0,W: 9,AB 3,AC 11/Rog: Vit: 0,W: 5,AB 4,AC 18

Rogue bluffs for sneak attack: 1d20+8 = 16
Fighter rolls Sense Motive: 1d20+2 = 20

Rogue rolls attack: Realizing that every hit will cause a wound now, rogue just stabs away with his rapier: 1d20 +4 = 24, another possible crit! Confirm: 1d20 +4 =8, uhm, no. Damage 1d6 +1 = 5. Hit location: 1d20 = 20. Two 20s so close together... anyway, that is a hit to the head.

Helmet reduces damage to 3 but still fighter takes -2 to INT and WIS and his Initiative drops by 5 points. He's still not below 0 initiative, at least he doesn't lose his action.

Fighter rolls attack: 1d20 +3 =22, possible crit! Confirm: 1d20 +3 = 13. hrmph. Still, that are 2d6 +4 = 11 points of damage. Even with the DR 4 of the chain shirt that finally drops rogue to -2. Yay for greatswords.

###

Fighter is pretty beat up. He is down to 6 wound points. Furthermore he took a 3 point wound to the head (-2 to INT,WIS), a 3 point wound to the leg(s) (-2 to DEX) and two 1 point wounds to his left arm ( a total of -4 to attack, -2 to damage and -2 to AC)

If fighter would be using a shield, the arm wounds would instead lower his AC by 4 points.

Note that the arm wounds don't actually reduce his STR, since this would reduce his carrying capacity and could theoretically result in a heavily encumbered character keeling over from too much weight.

And yes, it is entirely possible that a heavily armoured character will end up effectivly incapaciated from wound effects, long before he runs out of wound points.

Note that the wound effects are not ability damage, they will go away as soon as the wound points associated with these penalties get healed. So relieve is just a cure spell away.

Unless you are playing in a campaign where natural healing happens...


Okay. Just a few ideas. Maybe one or three people actually find this inspiring.

So, do you think this could be more fun then the RAW?


Lycar

The Glyphstone
2008-11-30, 12:39 PM
Sadly, no, because of things like True Strike. Called shots of any kind are a Very Bad Idea as long as whatever penalties to hit they assess can be negated. A +4 AC bonus on a head strike is nothing compared to the +20 bonus a 1-level dip in sorcerer gives any character.

Glimbur
2008-11-30, 06:39 PM
Why is the chest harder to hit than the head? It's a bigger target. In a similar vein, why is the shield arm harder to hit than the sword arm? What if I don't have a shield, or am completely unarmed?

It'd be more accurate to make armors apply different bonuses to different areas, so wearing just a breastplate makes the head a more tempting target.

All these seem pretty complicated and make a game that already takes forever for one round to go by take longer.

only1doug
2008-11-30, 06:47 PM
we abandoned the armour gives damage reduction rules. the GM was tired of doing 0 damage to us.

we moved to Wound and Vitality points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm).

there's a definate feel that large monsters are dangerous as they can kill almost any of us with 1 critical hit (2-3 exceptions, druid has immunity to crits while wildshaped, fighter-paladin has 44 wound points, my gish has 29 wound points)

(demon we were fighting today hit for 28-31 each blow... i was worried)

rayne_dragon
2008-11-30, 06:51 PM
In a similar vein, why is the shield arm harder to hit than the sword arm? What if I don't have a shield, or am completely unarmed?


Your shield arm should be harder to hit as if you're positioning yourself correctly on arm is further from your opponent. This gives you more time to react. It is also generally a smaller target because it is partially covered by your main hand and torso. This is more noticable in fencing where you present just one side of your body to an opponent making your off hand pretty much impossible to hit, but even dual wielding or with a two handed weapon you tend to put one arm more in front of the other.

Tengu_temp
2008-11-30, 06:58 PM
You can't have a simulationist game with a class and level system. If you want to play one, I suggest GURPS.

Lycar
2008-11-30, 07:11 PM
Why is the chest harder to hit than the head? It's a bigger target. In a similar vein, why is the shield arm harder to hit than the sword arm? What if I don't have a shield, or am completely unarmed?

The rationale is that, while the chest has a greater area, you are also having an easier time defending your torso from attacks, what with your weapon and shield being held between you and your opponent(s).

I was trying to come up with more sets of different armour. Like that 'gladiator's shoulder', which would give good protection to the off-hand arm, while the fighter wears no or minimal body armour. Still, without aimed attacks, the arm armour would be the default armour rating. But with the additional effects of chest and abdominal hits, I think it's better to make them harder to target deliberately.



It'd be more accurate to make armors apply different bonuses to different areas, so wearing just a breastplate makes the head a more tempting target.

Uh... they do. Breastplate does include a helmet though. Cuirass would be the one that offers good body armour, but nothing for the limbs.

Chain shirt offers good basic DR, but if you want to hide your armour, your limbs and head are not protected at all! Of course, you are potentially harder to hit, since chain shirt allows so much of your defense bonus and DEX bonus to matter.

Hrm, maybe increase the drawbacks of heavy armours. Maybe set the ACPs back to their original values and deduct every point of unmitigated ACP from your attack rolls. In this case, Armour Proficiencies should allow to ignore 1, 3 and 5 points of ACP for Light, Medium and Heavy Armour Proficiencies respectivly.


All these seem pretty complicated and make a game that already takes forever for one round to go by take longer.

That's why I said that this might be more usefull in a PbP game. You can just post an attack roll, confirmation roll and single damage roll in your post. If anything special happens, like a critical hit, the GM can just put the hit location roll in his response message and edit accordingly.

The +20 to to-hit from doesn't bother me that much. You are going to use it on an attack that is meant to count. You are not going to waste it on a strike or shot that will scrape of vitality points. You want that to be a wounding hit.

Besides, how many castings of True Strike does a single character have?

Remember that wounds only occur on critical hits or once the enemy has no vitality left anyway.

It is just that the lightly armoured foe is (usually) harder to hit, but easier to damage, while an armoured foe can take a few wounding hits and remain standing. He will suffer from it though.

My intention is to make wearing different sets of armours mean an actual difference. With the damage reduction and vitality/wound point rules, you need to find a balance between the DR and AC your choice of armour offers, as well as drawbacks.

Maybe helmets should reduce MDex and/or ACP(they impair your field of vision, thus making it harder for you to sense and react to threats). Maybe they incur their ACP on spot/listen checks.

And of course, wearing a helmet is something you might not want to do around polite company.

Heck, one could maybe even make EVERY hit strike a random location! It's just another D20 roll in your attack spoiler after all. And suddenly, having bought those leather greaves makes even more of a difference.

Hrm. Maybe one could even rule that wounding occurs if you take damage at or above your CON score, even if it is all vitality point damage. Then armour becomes even more important!

EDIT:

we abandoned the armour gives damage reduction rules. the GM was tired of doing 0 damage to us.

That's why I stated that every hit still needs to do a minimum of 1 pt. of damage. A trifle when it comes to shaving down vitality points, but enough to wound once vitality is gone!


You can't have a simulationist game with a class and level system. If you want to play one, I suggest GURPS.

Well, the idea was to tweak D&D around a bit. :smallbiggrin:
But yes, this all breaks down at or after lv. 5 anyway.

But I would hope that one could have some memorable fights with this system until then.

Lycar

Lapak
2008-11-30, 09:23 PM
Heck, one could maybe even make EVERY hit strike a random location! It's just another D20 roll in your attack spoiler after all. And suddenly, having bought those leather greaves makes even more of a difference.It's only one, but every additional die roll slows things down just a bit more until it stops being 'more fun' and starts being 'more work'. If you're committed to trying this out, I'd recommend using the attack roll for double-duty. In Rolemaster, for example (IIRC) the percentile die to-hit is reversed (52 becomes 25) to determine hit location. You could do something similar with a d20 by saying that, for example, the margin of success determines hit location - hitting by 5 or less hits the torso, hitting by 6-9 hits different limbs depending on the exact number, hitting by 10 or more hits the head, that kind of thing.

Satyr
2008-12-01, 04:57 AM
Hit location from the simulative perspective doesn't work well in D&D. If you want something like targeted atacks, make hem work like minor spells which are activated through hits and give those melee monsters access to them. A targeted hit on the legs deals dexterity damage and reduces the seed of the target, called shots on the arms deal Strength damage and reduce the BAB respectiveliy increase the arcane spell failure rate for pells with somatic components, targeted hits on the vital organs deal constitution damage and targeted hits on the sensitive parts of the enemy renders them sickened.
Now you have a small set of martial, at- will save or suck effects (with the slight disadvantage that they all target Fortitude Saves) which are quite plausible and attractive for the PC's.

And Armor: Just replace the AC of Armors completely with Damage Reduction. Aror bonuses that would increase the sturdiness of armor (like natural armor etc.) increase the DR, stuff that makes you harder to hit increase the Defense (like shield or dodge bonuses).
Than make Defense an ability that increases per level (or make it equal to the BAB or Reflex Save, whatever is higher) so that experienced characters are actually harder to hit.

For more suspense and more intersting combats, replace the static +10 bonus to defense through a D20 roll + the Defense bonus and instead let NPC enemies use a 'take 10' option on their attacks (critical hit are determined through extremely low defense rolls). The number of rolls in a combat stays the same, but they become much more interesting from the player's pespective bewcause you as a palyer has more to do and more influence on the fate of your character.

valadil
2008-12-01, 09:44 AM
Much as I enjoy D&D, if I want a game with hit locations I'd rather just play GURPs.

If you really want to try this in d20 though, take a look at Game of Thrones d20. Armor gives DR instead of AC. You have a couple called shot attack options to take a penalty to negate the DR or to hit the opponent in the vitals to do extra damage. I've only played one session so far so I can't comment on how well it works as written, but it's probably a good starting point for this kind of game play.

only1doug
2008-12-01, 02:59 PM
That's why I stated that every hit still needs to do a minimum of 1 pt. of damage. A trifle when it comes to shaving down vitality points, but enough to wound once vitality is gone!

Lycar

Well, as we rejected the idea over a year ago your advice is a trifle late :P

As a player in the above example i'm very glad we rejected it. we were facing hordes of goblins who wouldn't of hit our AC without the DR/AC rules, their hits now mostly bounced off the DR. given a minimum of 1 damage we would of died from the difference.


I recommend you try Rolemaster it's already perfect for your designs.

Tacoma
2008-12-04, 04:21 PM
I play a video game called Dwarf Fortress. The combat system is very detailed. A character has body parts that can be damaged, which affects his capacities. A lung injury reduces the work he can do and his movement, etc. Point is, an attack might strike his third toe on his left foot, taking into account the attacker's and defender's skill, attacker's and defender's physical status, attacker's weapon, defender's multiple layers of armor and clothing, and various other programming attributes including critical hits and attacks striking multiple parts, knockback, knockout, morale, weapon and armor durability, fatigue, encumbrance, broken bones, bleeding, vomiting, organ damage, limb and head removal, etc.

With sufficient game balance this system is capable of accurately describing combat to the smallest detail. It is an excellent combat system for a video game because the game can manage juggling all the data without slowing down the fun. But on the table, your systems must be simple first. Absolutely the most important factor is simplicity. After that you go for balance, then realism last of all.