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powerdemon
2008-11-30, 04:32 PM
I have a wizard lvl 2 that I want to make as magically inclined as I can. I ask you the people for suggestions for a PrC that focuses on casting. I don't care to multiclass unless I have to, or if the other class has full spellcasting. I plan on taking all 5 levels of War Weaver from Heroes of Battle. I was looking at the Archmage, but, maybe it's just me, it doesn't seem like there is a whole lot of payoff for losing spell slots. I can barely cast any spells as it is :smallbiggrin:(compared to a sorcerer).

Any input is appreciated! :smallwink:

RTGoodman
2008-11-30, 04:36 PM
Well, definitely check out the Master Specialist PrC from Complete Mage - it doesn't really lose anything, but starts giving you decent or good abilities starting at, I think, 3rd level.

After that, just follow the First Rule of Optimization and make sure every PrC you take has full casting advancement. Archmage is good if you can meet the prerequisites, as is Loremaster. Fatespinner (for the first 4 levels) can be good, and Incantatrix and Initiate of the Seven-Fold Veil are both VERY good to the point of being cheesy.

Really, it just depends on what you want your character to do, besides "cast spells," since you'll be doing that anyway. As long as you're not losing out on casting, any other features are just icing on the cake.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-11-30, 04:36 PM
Well, here's the bible (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500) of all things wizard. I think it has a section on PrCs.

powerdemon
2008-11-30, 04:40 PM
Well, definitely check out the Master Specialist PrC from Complete Mage - it doesn't really lose anything, but starts giving you decent or good abilities starting at, I think, 3rd level.

After that, just follow the First Rule of Optimization and make sure every PrC you take has full casting advancement. Archmage is good if you can meet the prerequisites, as is Loremaster. Fatespinner (for the first 4 levels) can be good, and Incantatrix and Initiate of the Seven-Fold Veil are both VERY good to the point of being cheesy.

Really, it just depends on what you want your character to do, besides "cast spells," since you'll be doing that anyway. As long as you're not losing out on casting, any other features are just icing on the cake.

I thought about loremaster, but the tricks didn't really appeal to me. Archmage has some hefty requirements, but I planned on taking the Knowledge and Spellcraft anyway. The Feats are a bit overbearing though. I'd rather be getting things like explosive spell and repeat spell :P.

I should also mention I don't want to be TOO good. I am playing with two other players that this is their first adventure. I don't want to overshadow them.

I will look at the master specialist.

RTGoodman
2008-11-30, 04:50 PM
Well, as far as Archmage, you get one bonus feat at Wiz 1 and another at Wiz 5, both of which could be used to meet the Spell Focus pre-reqs (which you might want anyway, if you're looking at save-or-suck/die spells). The Skill Focus (Spellcraft) won't be helping much, but that's the price you pay to get into the class, so you just have to suck it up. Same thing for the Loremaster pre-reqs - you get free metamagic/creation feats from being a Wizard, so you're almost set there, and you'll get a free feat from being a Loremaster with one of your secrets, which replaces the nigh-useless Skill Focus.

The guide Mushroom Ninja posted should be a big help, though, so take a good look at it.

powerdemon
2008-11-30, 05:14 PM
Well, as far as Archmage, you get one bonus feat at
The guide Mushroom Ninja posted should be a big help, though, so take a good look at it.

I'm wrestling my way through it right now.

What school would you suggest I take Spell Focus in and why?

turkishproverb
2008-11-30, 05:19 PM
I have a wizard lvl 2 that I want to make as magically inclined as I can. I ask you the people for suggestions for a PrC that focuses on casting. I don't care to multiclass unless I have to, or if the other class has full spellcasting. I plan on taking all 5 levels of War Weaver from Heroes of Battle. I was looking at the Archmage, but, maybe it's just me, it doesn't seem like there is a whole lot of payoff for losing spell slots. I can barely cast any spells as it is :smallbiggrin:(compared to a sorcerer).

Any input is appreciated! :smallwink:

Spell Addict (Plot and Poison p.72-3 ). Faster than normal spell progression, but you need to make a will save to cast due to your addiction to your own magic.

Yukitsu
2008-11-30, 05:20 PM
Conjuration and transmutation are both considered the most powerful.

Illusion and enchantment have the highest ratio of spells with saves.

Necromancy has the deadliest save or dies.

Specialize in what you want to do. I tend to spell focus illusions.

powerdemon
2008-11-30, 05:22 PM
Necromancy has the deadliest save or dies.

I like the sound of that :smallbiggrin:

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-30, 05:37 PM
What race are you?

RTGoodman
2008-11-30, 05:41 PM
Well, like Yukitsu says, it depends on what sorts of spells yoju're casting most. If you're focusing on save-or-dies or save-or-sucks, you're probably looking at Spell Focus (Enchantment) and/or (Necromancy), since they have the most save-or-lose spells. Spell Focus (Illusion) can give you an edge because it means more people are going to believe the illusions, which can be very versatile (and also include save-or-dies like weird or phantasmal killer, both of which, I THINK, have not one but TWO saves to avoid them). Basically, you should focus in something where the saves matter a lot (except Evocation - leave the damage dealing to other damage-dealers).

If you're looking at War Weaver, I'd suggest either not specializing (which, unfortunately gets rid of Master Specialist, but opens up the Elven Generalist racial substitution levels in Races of the Wild, if you're willing to be an Elf), or picking either Transmutation (for the best buffs) or Divination (for only losing one school - probably Evocation or Enchantment) as your specialty.

Also, regarding your reluctance to give up spell slots for Archmage abilities - by the time you're high enough level to take Archmage levels, you'll have WAY more than enough spells slots for most of the abilities. If you wait until after you get 9th level spells, you can, for the price of one 9th level slot and one 5th level slot, get one 9th-level spell as a twice-a-day spell-like-ability. Seems worth it to me. Spell Power is good too, as are Mastery of Shaping and Arcane Reach, depending on build.

powerdemon
2008-11-30, 05:44 PM
Elf. I would post more info but I'm at work and my stuff is at home. I'll post what I remember.

Stats:

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 8

I took two flaws, so I have the -6 initiative and -4 spot and listen checks.

I took sudden maximize, combat casting, and Lucky Spell (from this site) as feats.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-30, 05:44 PM
Meh, specializing isn't really worth it in my opinion. Grey elf with Elf Generalist and Spontaneous Divination (with Domain wizard if it's allowed) is more versatile and doesn't loose much if anything. If you really need those extra spell slots then you are doing something wrong.

Yukitsu
2008-11-30, 05:45 PM
Oh gods, get rid of the initiative penalty.

Edit: Oh gods, get rid of sudden maximize, unless you plan on abusing explosive runes.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-30, 05:47 PM
Grey Elf going Elf Generalist and Spontaneous Divination with the feat Faerie Mysteries Initiate and heading into Incantatrix (dropping evocation) at level 6 before heading into Archamge (at level 16). Maybe give up a level of Archmage for a level of Mindbender so that you can qualify for Mindsight.

Yukitsu
2008-11-30, 05:50 PM
Tippy, that's your answer to everything. :smalltongue:

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-30, 05:51 PM
Tippy, that's your answer to everything. :smalltongue:

He wanted a wizard suggestion with no constraints on the power level or even any indication of what kind of wizard he wants to be.

powerdemon
2008-11-30, 05:55 PM
Initiative to me is very unimportant and I haven't seen anything in my 4 years of playing to change my mind.

I already have the character so I can't change my race. I can probably get rid of sudden maximize, though it has helped a lot so far. I maximized a burning hands to take out 3 guys at once.



He wanted a wizard suggestion with no constraints on the power level or even any indication of what kind of wizard he wants to be.



I should also mention I don't want to be TOO good. I am playing with two other players that this is their first adventure. I don't want to overshadow them.


Ahem <points up>

I want to be useful to my part of a druid and a barbarian. Buffing when I can (Hence the war weaver), and doing damage when I can.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-30, 05:59 PM
Ahem <points up>

Too good is gate rape. And based on his even asking this question odd's are he doesn't know most of the real abuses. Incantatrix with metamagic abuse (as in stacking 6+metamagics onto an orb) and without persistent spell abuse (which requires you to pump Spellcraft to absurd levels to reliably make the higher level spells persistent) isn't that good. It's nice but not massively overpowered.

Yukitsu
2008-11-30, 06:01 PM
It sounds like a low powered campaign group, as at optimization levels of play, losing initiative means getting blown away by the guy that won in one shot. For the sake of your DMs sanity, you probably don't want to use the build Tippy just presented, because it basically destroys encounters. In fact, incantrixes in general just win. I wouldn't use the incantrix or the initiate of the seven fold veil, just because both are too powerful.

As you go higher up in level, damage stops being worthwhile, and sudden maximize will no longer be useful. Not only that, but you can emulate that with equipment. A normal metamagic rod of maximize is affordable, and just about as effective. If you can retrain it, it can be useful up to, I'd say 7 where damage shifts away from being effective to a nuisance.

I'd say you should work up to fate spinner/archmage if you want to focus on necromancy. You can basically designate a single person as dead once per day, or make it more likely that you whack a bunch of weaker guys. Fate spinner is powerful, but only a few times a day, which makes it comparatively balanced.

powerdemon
2008-11-30, 06:02 PM
What the hell is "Gate Rape"?

I don't want to abuse any rules or loopholes. I want it to be legit.


Yukitsu, what do you suggest as my role in this party? I was thinking that wizards are decent damage dealers but I'm hearing that that is not the case.

Yukitsu
2008-11-30, 06:03 PM
What the hell is "Gate Rape"?

I don't want to abuse any rules or loopholes. I want it to be legit.

Gate rape is gating in a titan. Titan gates a titan. That titan gates a titan. etc. They all fight for you for 40 rounds.

Incantrix, IIRC is one of the 3 ways to chain gate rape, thus having about 400 titans by the end of it.

powerdemon
2008-11-30, 06:04 PM
Gate rape is gating in a titan. Titan gates a titan. That titan gates a titan. etc. They all fight for you for 40 rounds.

Incantrix, IIRC is one of the 3 ways to chain gate rape, thus having about 400 titans by the end of it.

Sounds like a DnD joke gone bad :smallbiggrin:

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-30, 06:05 PM
What the hell is "Gate Rape"?

I don't want to abuse any rules or loopholes. I want it to be legit.

Everything I have presented is clear cut legit. Not even questionable. Even gate rape is clear cut legit (although it is massively powerful).

But just grab a level of Mindbender for Mindsight, take the 5 levels of Archmage, and fill the rest out with whatever seems interesting and doesn't loose caster levels. So long as you don't take a PrC that makes you give up a school or looses caster levels it's hard to go wrong.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-30, 06:08 PM
Gate rape is gating in a titan. Titan gates a titan. That titan gates a titan. etc. They all fight for you for 40 rounds.

Incantrix, IIRC is one of the 3 ways to chain gate rape, thus having about 400 titans by the end of it.

No. That's something different.

And you can get an arbitrarily large number of titans with 1 gate.

Gate Rape is gating in whatever creature you want (say a Solar), ordering it to lower all it's defenses and not resist, and then using the spell Mind Rape on it before ordering it to wish it's self back to you as soon as gate ends. Now you have a perfectly loyal Solar who will do whatever you want and that stays around forever.

Do the same with Great Wrym Prismatic Dragons and you gain access to Epic Spell Casting by proxy at level 17.

Deth Muncher
2008-11-30, 06:09 PM
Gate rape is gating in a titan. Titan gates a titan. That titan gates a titan. etc. They all fight for you for 40 rounds.

Incantrix, IIRC is one of the 3 ways to chain gate rape, thus having about 400 titans by the end of it.

"If it wasn't for Gate Rape I'd never get slain."

-Random optimised Sublime Chord.

hamishspence
2008-11-30, 06:11 PM
the assumption that "permit me to use mindrape on you" is a legitimate service to order a Gated creature to do is required for this sort of thing.

powerdemon
2008-11-30, 06:12 PM
That's not what I mean by legit. I mean I can have a clear conscience while doing it. On top of that, I don't want to overshadow the other two players.

Aquillion
2008-11-30, 06:12 PM
-6 initiativeGah! Bad idea, bad idea! Initiative is fairly important to a caster -- for a fighter-type, it only makes a little difference whether they hit the enemy first or the enemy hits them first, but for a caster it can make a huge difference whether you get to drop the wall of stone or the mass-save-or-suck before the enemy's turn. You should be taking Improved Initiative, not taking a penalty.

Sudden metamagic generally isn't worth it. You can buy metamagic rods for that stuff; spending gold is better than spending feats. Sudden Maximize in particular isn't worth it -- maximizing just isn't that great. The best spells (walls, save-or-sucks, buffs, teleportation, etc) don't have anything to maximize anyway.

As other people said, the Archmage costs aren't as bad as they look (especially not for the one that trades a slot for two SLAs, if that's a spell you know you'll always prepare at least once anyway.) Part of the thing that makes full casters so powerful in 3.5 is the 'exponential-ish' growth of the number of spells slots they have -- not really exponential, sure, but it grows very fast as you go up in level, especially with 18 int. At about four encounters a day, each lasting about three or so rounds (many of which will be cleanup after you've already clearly won, so you don't have to spend spells), you'll find you're hard-pressed to use even a decent fraction of your spells, much less all of them.

Yukitsu
2008-11-30, 06:13 PM
No. That's something different.

And you can get an arbitrarily large number of titans with 1 gate.

Gate Rape is gating in whatever creature you want (say a Solar), ordering it to lower all it's defenses and not resist, and then using the spell Mind Rape on it before ordering it to wish it's self back to you as soon as gate ends. Now you have a perfectly loyal Solar who will do whatever you want and that stays around forever.

Do the same with Great Wrym Prismatic Dragons and you gain access to Epic Spell Casting by proxy at level 17.

Eh. I prefer simalucrums of Vecna with alter reality at will. In particular, they have the ability to make more simalucrums of vecna with their alter reality SLA.

The difference, in all odds between mindrape junkies and illusionist junkies. :smalltongue:

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-30, 06:16 PM
the assumption that "permit me to use mindrape on you" is a legitimate service to order a Gated creature to do is required for this sort of thing.

If it can be accomplished in under 1 round per caster level they don't get a choice. You can order a gated creature to kill it's self and they will so long as they can do it in under a minimum of 17 rounds (minimum CL).

hamishspence
2008-11-30, 06:16 PM
depends what you mean by "clear concience" If you gate in a creature for one service, fine.

If you gate in a creature and the "service" means "become my personal slave forever" even if the word you use are just "permit me to cast this next spell on you by voluntarily failing a save"- less fine.

Maybe they should have used the text for planar binding- creatures get a will save against obviously suicidal orders.

Vexxation
2008-11-30, 06:21 PM
"If it wasn't for Gate Rape I'd never get slain."

-Random optimised Sublime Chord.

Well played, sir, well played indeed.

Anyway, I'd probably follow Tippy's advice. Just beware that you might overshadow your fellows if you play a Batman-style wizard.

Aquillion
2008-11-30, 06:27 PM
depends what you mean by "clear concience" If you gate in a creature for one service, fine.

If you gate in a creature and the "service" means "become my personal slave forever" even if the word you use are just "permit me to cast this next spell on you by voluntarily failing a save"- less fine.

Maybe they should have used the text for planar binding- creatures get a will save against obviously suicidal orders.
Hmm... I can see how it's not so clear. Looking at the text:

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.Now, 'voluntarily fail your save against this mindrape' is something that can be accomplished in one round, so Tippy has a point. On the other hand...


If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.No matter how you argue it, by using Mindrape you are choosing to "extract a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature." The fact that you're using an unusual method to extract the service doesn't change that. By my interpretation that means that you still have to offer a fair trade in exchange for their eternal servitude.

However, here we run into another problem with Gate. When do you pay? Why, "immediately upon completion of the service". So technically, per RAW, to get a creature to serve you forever via Gate, you don't even need Mindrape; you simply have to be able to make an offer worth their eternal servitude. You never actually have to pay, because their service is never complete.

Actually attempting to exploit this loophole in a campaign is not recommended, because it's the sort of Deal-With-The-Devil thing that DM's love to try and find a way to screw you over with. Also, DMs can get around the loophole simply by having the creature say that nothing is worth eternal servitude.

Yukitsu
2008-11-30, 06:28 PM
Classical batman, or new batman? The original couldn't overshadow, because the point of his existance was making other people better.

That's why I like Vecna clones. They can gate for free as long as I want them to, and can get those things out for 25 rounds. Don't have to fiddle with that permanent stuff.

hamishspence
2008-11-30, 06:30 PM
or, take the interpretation that "eternal servitude" is out of the reach of the spell- that no amount of cash is worth it. Especially if it begins with personality and memory modification.

Aquillion
2008-11-30, 06:30 PM
or, take the interpretation that "eternal servitude" is out of the reach of the spell- that no amount of cash is worth it. Especially if it begins with personality and memory modification.
Heh, I edited that possibility in while you were typing. :smallbiggrin:

Still, you can always try to trick creatures into agreeing to a service that never ends... but that's entering into "deal with the devil" territory again.

hamishspence
2008-11-30, 06:33 PM
yes, but who's the devil in this context- the creature, or the PC? :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2008-11-30, 07:12 PM
Divine Oracle from Complete Divine will actually work for an arcane caster as well, since it says "+1 existing spellcasting level" not "+1 existing divine spellcasting level". The prereqs are also rather easy to get into as a wizard. The glorious part is when you realize that it requires the feat Skill Focus: Knowledge(Religion). So...take it. Then take a look over at the Loremaster PrC, which requires Skill Focus: Knowledge(Any). Well, (Religion) is a specific form of (Any), so you now qualify for Loremaster as well. It gets better though, because one of the Secrets you can get from Loremaster is...a bonus feat! So, now you've qualified for two PrCs with one feat, AND you recover that feat at a later point where it'll probably be useful. Take that opportunity to nab Quicken Spell, and actually have the wizard levels to use it!

So, a Divine Oracle2/Loremaster3-5 would be a good investment of 5-7 levels with little drawbacks and decent gains. DO nets you a form of Evasion, plus adds a decent number of spells to your list (Commune!). Loremaster can boost your laggy fort save, give you a +1 to hit (for ranged touch and ray spells), or a couple of minor things. Loremaster also has the wonderful Use Magic Device skill as a class skill, so you can trick various magic items into working for you, which is all kinds of fun (if you don't believe me, look up the Necklace of Prayer Beads, specifically the Bead of Karma).

BTW, you can retrain feats and class features using the PHBII rules on retraining. I'd talk to your DM about it, and see if you can change from being a generic elven wizard to taking the Elven Wizard racial substitution levels in Races of the Wild. This'll net you an extra spell slot of whatever the highest level spells you can cast are. Its like specialization with fewer spells per day, but no banned schools. All in all, VERY nice. The 4th? level sub is also nice because it DOUBLES the bonus you get for your familiar. That means that your pocket toad now gives +6 hp, or your pocket rat now gives a +4 to your fort save (very very good).

Also, then retrain Sudden Maximize into something slightly more useful. I'd recommend Sculpt Spell (take Extend as well to qualify for Sculpt). A Sculpted Grease spell is a 2nd level spell, and increases the effective area of your grease by 4x. Grease is a very useful spell for disabling your foes, one of the best 1st level spells in the game.

Aquillion
2008-11-30, 07:21 PM
I have a wizard lvl 2 that I want to make as magically inclined as I can. I ask you the people for suggestions for a PrC that focuses on casting.Truthfully, if you want a PRC that simply says "I am better at casting", Incantrix is probably your best bet. Of course, it's also horribly broken, but what do you expect?

For less-broken options, Geometer and Mage of the Arcane Order are both PRCs that offer decent 'perks' without costing you any spell levels. The first four levels of Fatespinner work, too. (And fit thematically with Lucky Spell.)

...do you want to focus on blasting, incidentally? I noticed that you took both Lucky Spell and Sudden Maximize. In terms of power blasting is a bit underpowered compared to other options, but it's no big deal... there are more specific suggestions people may have for you if that's what you want to focus on.

RTGoodman
2008-11-30, 07:34 PM
...do you want to focus on blasting, incidentally? I noticed that you took both Lucky Spell and Sudden Maximize. In terms of power blasting is a bit underpowered compared to other options, but it's no big deal... there are more specific suggestions people may have for you if that's what you want to focus on.

Well, the OP mentions taking all the levels of War Weaver which, IIRC, is mostly a buffing PrC that lets you put spells in the weave and thereby cast them on everyone at once. If you can find a way to get access to some some of the good Cleric buffs (but not Personal-only ones), then you could get those. To that extent, I guess Rainbow Servant would be a good choice, IF (and it's a big if) the DM allows it with full casting (as per the text, which supposedly trumps the table).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-30, 07:37 PM
Basic, easy build with minimal requirements:Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10/Fatespinner X(where x<5)/Archmage 7-x. All it needs are skill points and 2 feats you'd probably take anyways. The Archmage requirements are almost completely covered by MS(which needs Spell Focus and gives you Skill Focus for free). You can drop Fatespinner completely and not miss it; the bonus feat from 2 more Wiz levels is pretty nice, and if you do that you can use MS levels to delay getting the feat till you qualify for something nice.

Yukitsu
2008-11-30, 07:39 PM
The problem with master specialist is, you practically have to play a diviner.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-11-30, 07:52 PM
The problem with master specialist is, you practically have to play a diviner.

And is that a bad thing? :smallbiggrin:

Yukitsu
2008-11-30, 07:53 PM
Not bad per se, but I tend to think the loss of that school, and the fact that you require spell focus: divination is a bit of a turn off.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-11-30, 07:55 PM
Not bad per se, but I tend to think the loss of that school, and the fact that you require spell focus: divination is a bit of a turn off.

Yeah, I hate giving up non-evocation schools.

Keld Denar
2008-11-30, 08:03 PM
The "best" wizard you can be is not to do hardly any damage at all. There are a very few situations when it is rather handy, but most other times, its better and easier to empower your allies and disable your foes. Lets look at 2nd level spells, which you'll be gaining in a few thousand xp, and look at our spell options.

Flaming Sphere...2d4 damage/round. Oh, and save for 1/2...you've got to be kidding me. A halfling fighter with a 10 str and a pair of daggers is gonna do more damage per round, let alone an actual decent melee character. Granted, you can keep it burning in later rounds, but still, really meh.

Acid Arrow...3d6 damage with ongoing burn. Still a little better than flaming sphere. Its Conjouration, so there is no SR, and there is also no save, which is good, but still. A fighter with a greatsword and a 16 str is gonna out damage that.

Scorching Ray...4d6 Better initial damage than Acid Arrow, but no continuous damage. Decent spell, especially at level 3 (gives 4 dice when most spells that are dice/level only give 3) but still, a raging barbarian with power attack and a great axe could do that much damage.

Glitterdust...win. Glitterdust is an AMAZING spell. Especially at low levels. Many mooks you fight will probably have high reflex saves, high fort saves, or both. Will saves tend to be very weak, especially among mooks and low level humanoids. What does it do? BLINDS people. When blinded, the foe would essentially treat all of your allies that try to attack him as invisible. That includes difficulty pinpointing foes that didn't just attack him, 50% miss chance on foes he can locate, and all your allies get a +2 to hit him AND he's considered flat footed (denied dex bonus). So, if this spell hits, which its pretty likely it will, you have in essence cast several spells at once. You've made your allies Greater Invisible (4th level spell). Thats strong. Plus, its SR:No, so you can use it against a ton of different things, including CONSTRUCTS who are normally immune to just about every spell in the game. Once you cast Glitterdust, you can usually retire from the battlefield, letting your mooks allies clean up the bad guys while you have a spot of tea. This is the true spirit of the Batman or God style of wizard.

Cast Enlarge Person on your barbarian. He'll love you forever (hopefully not that way) because his damage and reach will go up very nicely. He'll do more damage in a couple rounds from that buff than you would ever do with a Burning Hands.

See how this works? When you do the math, its generally more efficient in spell resources to buff your allies and disable your opponents than it is to do HP damage. Blasting burns through spells WAY too quick, especially at low levels, for mediochre results. Sure, it may be a little less glory, but it'll make adventuring a lot easier and help your friends have a decent bit of fun as well. Hope I was helpful. For a more detailed investigation of spell selection, check out TheLogicNinja's guide to Wizards: Being Batman on this forum, and also check out Treantmonk20's guide to playing a GOD style wizard over on the CharOp forums off the main wizards.com site. Both very good guides for strategies that will make your wizard more of a team player and DRAMATICALLY increase the effectiveness of your whole party. They'll feel like they are contributing, but you know you are doing all the work. Everyone wins.

Short anecdote...
I played a high level fighter mutt in a Living Greyhawk campaign, and my favorite player of all time was a guy who played a wizard who was a few levels lower than me. He buffed me a little, and then used Dimension Door to get me into full attack range of whatever it was we were fighting, and I would kill it. He said he never expected to do so much damage with a 4th level spell, but he played his role and enabled me to play mine, and together we killed a lot of nasty stuff. When I played with him again later, he took Dimension Door in most of his 4th level slots, because he knew my fighter would do more damage to more bad guys in a full attack than any Cone of Cold or other direct damage spell he could memorize in those slots. His Dimension Door allowed me to full attack as often as possible, so in essence "he" was doing the damage that my character otherwise wouldn't have been able to do because he would have had to waste a round charging or waiting for the bad guys to close on me.


Yeah, I hate giving up non-evocation schools.

Honestly, its not that bad. Enchantment and Illusion have a LOT of overlap, so generally one or the other can go (probably Enchantment because Illusion has a TON of valuable defenses) so dropping both Evocation and Enchantment make the other spell slots you gain pretty worth while, especially if you are a Conjourer (so many good Conjourations!!!). The only thing that I can think of that you really lose is Otto's Irresistable Dance, which by the time you get it, there are a number of other things you can do. Freezing Fog is pretty much a "have fun chillin by yourself for the rest of combat, and oh, take 1d6 damage per round while doing it just because I'm spiteful" This spell can single handedly solo Greater Stone Golems and Iron Golems...oh, and Frenzied Berzerkers! I've never missed Otto's that bad.

Yukitsu
2008-11-30, 08:28 PM
Illusions and enchantments can be hard to give up depending on play style. Will saves are most creatures weakest, and both have save or lose at lower levels than the equivalent necromancers save or dies. I tend to find the only overlap is that both produce will saves.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-30, 08:32 PM
Okay, if I'm reading this right, you're wanting someone who is a 'party player', someone whose greatest contribution is to make his fellows nigh invincible. Is this right?

Also, you do not wish to be too 'optimized' because you fear you will overshadow your other players. Is this also correct?

Well, my friend, here are several builds designed with these criteria in mind:

1) Basic Buff-o-matic

Wiz5/Mage of the Arcane Order4/War Weaver5/Archmage4

Archmage abilities to get: Arcane Reach, Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements, and Spellpower. Here's why.

Arcane Reach lets you cast touch spells at a range of 30'. This includes winners like Finger of Death as well as Touch of Idiocy and a few other handy little touch spells.

Mastery of Shaping means NOT hitting your buddies when you let fly with some area-effect nastiness. If you ever get into a mood where you just want to blast away with Cone of Cold/Fireball/Chain Lightning, this is THE thing to use to make sure you don't hit your buddies.

Mastery of Elements means never having the wrong 'flavor' memorized. Thought you were going to go up against a red dragon, so you stocked up on those Cone of Cold spells, but ended up facing his troll minons instead? This means flaming death for those trolls anyways.

Spellpower means higher DC's on your spells resists.

Mage of the Arcane Order means always having the right buffs on hand.

2) The Buff-o-matic 9000!

Sorc6/MotAO4/War Weaver5/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 5

The Buff-o-matic has a lower selection of spells known, but it can cast them more times per day, and since you're really looking more for support, you're probably going to be casting the same spells over and over anyways. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is very handy for personal defense.

3) The Gish-o-matic

Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil7

As only 4th level spells can get into the Weave, loosing two caster levels won't kill you. You can still cast 9th level spells by level 20. Only now you get your casting stat to ALL SAVES. Plus you run around in Mithral Chain Shirt (or rather +1 Mithral Chain Shirt of Heavy Fortification, to be immune to sneak attack and crits) without Arcane Spell Failure chance, which further increases your survival ability.

The final level of Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is the ultimate in personal defense, as it lets you raise a wall/shield that blocks everything.

The additional advantage of this build is you can use wands of cure x wounds as a backup healer.

4) The Inviso-Buffer!

Beguiler/War Weaver5

Take advantage of 'can spontaniously cast off of any spell on his spell list' by getting feats like Arcane Disciple that give you access to a whole domain of spells. If you do this with the Healing domain, then back it up with Spontanious Healer, you're also a healer. Use Arcane Disciple to get access to buffs that aren't on your list.

The Crack Buffer

Wiz5/Incantatrix10/War Weaver5

In short, metamagic the heck out of the spells you put in the weave.

Aquillion
2008-12-01, 12:06 AM
Well, the OP mentions taking all the levels of War Weaver which, IIRC, is mostly a buffing PrC that lets you put spells in the weave and thereby cast them on everyone at once. If you can find a way to get access to some some of the good Cleric buffs (but not Personal-only ones), then you could get those. To that extent, I guess Rainbow Servant would be a good choice, IF (and it's a big if) the DM allows it with full casting (as per the text, which supposedly trumps the table).
In that case, they should dump both Sudden Maximize and Lucky Spell (unless they plan some trick to get healing, anyhow.) There aren't very many buffs that those feats will help with; they'd be better off getting feats that helps them at what they intend to be doing.

mabriss lethe
2008-12-01, 12:38 AM
If you don't mind casting at 19/20 (and tome of magic is allowed)pick up a level of binder and the improved binding feat. It qualifies you for Anima Mage with 3 levels of wizard.(less if you abuse certain tricks) Anima mage gives you full spellcasting progression and full binding progression.

On top of this, you can do nasty tricks to swap out vestige powers for additional arcane shenanigans. Examples, Lose one granted power from one vestige, gain an extra spell slot up to the highest level you can cast. A small number of times per day you can temporarily block off access to a vestige and in return, gain the effect of any metamagic you know without modifying the spell's level. the capstone is the ability to cast any spell that you have prepared (or can cast spontaneously) as an immediate action, modified by still spell and and silent spell even if you don't know either metamagic.

So here we go

Binder 1/Wizard3/Anima Mage 10/Full arcane caster PrC of choice gives you access to 9th level spells as a 19th level wizard and the ability to bind vestiges of up to 6th level as an 11th level binder. which gives you a disgusting number of abilities to choose from. Sneak attack? yes please. Rebuke undead? sure thing! Constant gaze attacks? Why not! Fast healing and unlimited out of combat healing? Well, if you're just handing it out?

powerdemon
2008-12-01, 08:31 AM
Thanks for the input guys. Keld your post was very helpful!