A simple attempt (that probably won't work) of balancing spell casting [peach]

[Charlie Kemek]

If you have ever looked at the psionic handbook in 3.0, it had 2 base classes—the Psion and the Psionic warrior. they were basicly the same as they are now except for one thing: each of the 6 different "schools" of powers was based off a single ability score. you could pick any of the powers on your list, but all telepathy were based on Chr, etc. thus, you needed all the abilities to still cast all the powers. I know, this was considered very bad, because it is more MAD then the monk, so it would be something like: of the 8 (nine if you count universal) they would be divided as follows.
• Abjuration would use Wis
• Conjuration would changed. be divided into three different groups [not subtypes]: Summoning (teleportation, summoning, calling) and Creation (creation) (be put into Evocation). Necromancy would now include curing spells also. The name of the school would become Summoning.
- Summoning would use Int
• Divination would use Wis
• Enchantment would use Cha
• Evocation would use Int
• Illusion would use Cha
- The Shadow line of spells would be requiring A full Int score to learn, as if they were part of the school they were pretending to be (Evocation, Summoning).
• Necromancy would use Wis
• Transmutation would use Cha
• Universal would require a score in all three (i.e. Wish would require a 19 in int, wis, and cha).
bonus spells would be based on your class ability (cleric, etc. Wis. Sor, etc. Cha. Wiz, etc. Int)
it would require you to have the necessary ability score in order to cast any spell of any school. i.e. A wizard trying to cast Polymorph would need a 14 in both int and cha.

[The Glyphstone]

Wait.

You want to BALANCE arcane magic.

By making it work like 3.0 Psionics?





*gurgle*

[1of3]

I like it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Wait.

You want to BALANCE arcane magic.

By making it work like 3.0 Psionics?





*gurgle*

Yeah, that was my response to the OP.

[Kantolin]

That actually is a good idea. Adding more MAD to a caster lowers the frequency of save-or-dies in general. In this scenario, a caster can still be very powerful, but it lessens their overall versatility.

As is, it looks like the goal is for wizards to be blasters, sorcerors to be the statusers and buffers, and clerics to be a bit more defensive oriented. That's actually not bad overall - you'll run into problems in some areas (For example, invisibility has no save attached to it and thus doesn't care if you have a charisma of 3 but can still get it casted), but it's a nice step forward.

I assume the highest spells you can cast are as normal (Cha for sorcs, int for wizards, wis for clerics)... otherwise it's not relaly MAD at all.

[Morandir Nailo]

I think a better idea is to simply control spell access better. Don't give Wizards any freebie spells at level, and make sure that they know that spell research requires a fully-stocked magical laboratory in a permanent location - something that costs lots of money. Spell research/copying can be done in a Mage Guildhouse, for a price of course, and never forget the Spellcraft roll that is required first.

Keep a tighter reign on Metamagic (or eliminate it completely), and remind players that the magic item pricing rules in the DMG are actually guidelines, and that the DM has the final say on what a magic item costs to create (if it's possible at all), and whether or not creating it requires questing for special components. Also let them know that attempting cheesy spell combos will result in the accidental summoning of very, very hungry demons.

Mor

[Emperor Tippy]

Save or Dies aren't a real problem if you treat death how D&D expects it to be treated, as a minor inconvenience. Coming back from the dead is easy. Yeah, you loose a level but you make it back easily enough (and once you gain access to True Res even that isn't a problem). And various spells from splat books are lower level and work for in combat resurrection without the lost level as well.

[Blood_Lord]

Spell research/copying can be done in a Mage Guildhouse, for a price of course, and never forget the Spellcraft roll that is required first.

Um, actually yes. Forget that roll. Seriously.

Level 1 Human Wizard with 14 Int has a +6 to the spellcraft roll. The roll to copy a spell is DC 15+spell level. You can take ten on this roll.

A low int Human Wizard automatically succeeds on the roll at level 1.

At level 3, when he gains access to 2nd level spells, that same Wizard has a mod of +10, automatically copying up to 5th level spells.

You seriously don't need remember that roll. Like ever.


and remind players that the magic item pricing rules in the DMG are actually guidelines, and that the DM has the final say on what a magic item costs to create (if it's possible at all), and whether or not creating it requires questing for special components.

And this just penalizes all non casters.

Basically, under your system, Druids are the best, then Clerics, then maybe Wizards maybe Sorcerers, then the other one, then the dead beats.

So pretty much, just like normal D&D.

[Sinfire Titan]

As nice as this is, you are just making Transmutation, Necromancy, and Illusion that much better. All three of those schools are houses in their own rights (Illusion has been used to replace Conjuration at times), and Transmutation is the second strongest school in the game.

4 schools that use the same stat just encourages the use of those schools, and while one of them can be negated easily, it is much harder to prevent a Transmuter from abusing the remaining schools.

This idea is on the right track though. Perhaps applying it to the individual sub-types of spells instead of the schools themselves would nerf it into the balanced zone?

[Zeful]

If you have ever looked at the psionic handbook in 3.0, it had 2 base classes—the Psion and the Psionic warrior. they were basicly the same as they are now except for one thing: each of the 6 different "schools" of powers was based off a single ability score. you could pick any of the powers on your list, but all telepathy were based on Chr, etc. thus, you needed all the abilities to still cast all the powers. I know, this was considered very bad, because it is more MAD then the monk, so it would be something like: of the 8 (nine if you count universal) they would be divided as follows.
• Abjuration would use Wis
• Conjuration would changed. be divided into three different groups: Summoning (new school name)(teleportation, summoning, calling) and Creation (creation) (be put into Evocation). Necromancy would now include curing spells also.
- Summoning would use Int
• Divination would use Wis
• Enchantment would use Cha
• Evocation would use Int
• Illusion would use Cha
• Necromancy would use Wis
• Transmutation would use Cha
bonus spells would be based on your class ability (cleric, etc. Wis. Sor, etc. Cha. Wiz, etc. Int)

Except you're better off making the wizard class MAD by making Int effect only spells known, Wis effects highest level spell castable, Cha effect saving throws. Then removing the generalist option in it's entirety and give wizards only three schools at level one. Then make them use feats to gain specific spells from other schools.

In other words make them ToB style classes.

[Charlie Kemek]

The point of this is to get the three main "powerhouse" spell groups separated into different abilities: Div, Conj, Trans. I made Conj less powerful, and one of the less powerful groups: Necromancy, more powerful.
I have been considering a change. basically turn them into a psionic system, but they use spells of the equivelent power level, and they choose the ability they get to get bonus spells, but they must have the ability score of 10+spell level to use any power, and the ability changes.



4 schools that use the same stat just encourages the use of those schools, and while one of them can be negated easily, it is much harder to prevent a Transmuter from abusing the remaining schools.

What? there are no more than 3 schools that use one ability.


This idea is on the right track though. Perhaps applying it to the individual sub-types of spells instead of the schools themselves would nerf it into the balanced zone?

thanks. will look into it.

[Lapak]

Except you're better off making the wizard class MAD by making Int effect only spells known, Wis effects highest level spell castable, Cha effect saving throws. Then removing the generalist option in it's entirety and give wizards only three schools at level one. Then make them use feats to gain specific spells from other schools.

In other words make them ToB style classes.That's... not bad. I like that.

[The Glyphstone]

What? there are no more than 3 schools that use one ability.



thanks. will look into it.

I think what he means is that Illusions can be easily used to duplicate Evocations or Conjurations through the Shadow line of spells - so a sorcerer who took Illusions, Transmutations, and Necromancy spells would actually have his Evocations, Conjurations, Illusions, Necromancies, and Transmutations all keyed off Cha. It makes those schools much more attractive because of the ability synergy.

[Zeful]

It's not perfect, and is a touch heavy handed, but should keep the cheese to a minimum.

[Charlie Kemek]

I think what he means is that Illusions can be easily used to duplicate Evocations or Conjurations through the Shadow line of spells - so a sorcerer who took Illusions, Transmutations, and Necromancy spells would actually have his Evocations, Conjurations, Illusions, Necromancies, and Transmutations all keyed off Cha. It makes those schools much more attractive because of the ability synergy.

I get the first part, but Necromancy is based off Wisdom. It also makes people want to take enchantment a little, and more illusion means more creativity.

[The Glyphstone]

Ah, missed that - still, my point stands if you substitute Enchantment wherever I said Necromancy.

I'd honestly still argue against this, if only because the splitting up of ability scores was one of the most hated aspects of the already clunky and unbalanced 3.0 Psionics (that and Psionic Combat, but that was a nightmare all of its own). Zeful's idea looks like it could work though.

[Yukitsu]

Except you're better off making the wizard class MAD by making Int effect only spells known, Wis effects highest level spell castable, Cha effect saving throws. Then removing the generalist option in it's entirety and give wizards only three schools at level one. Then make them use feats to gain specific spells from other schools.

In other words make them ToB style classes.

Of course, this hits just past the versitility break whereaupon sorcerers become infinitely better, and everyone that wants to be arcane just plays artificers or archivists instead.

[Zeful]

Of course, this hits just past the versitility break whereaupon sorcerers become infinitely better, and everyone that wants to be arcane just plays artificers or archivists instead.

You'd either ban those classes, or do the same thing to all of them.

[Satyr]

The problem is not as much a single spellcasting class, but the implementation of spellcasting as a whole (in combination with the inability to hinder, demotivate or scare people without magic), that causes the injustice between mundane and spellcasting characters.

But, that may be very subjective. I would also claim that any game were death has degenerated into a minor inconvenience has utterly and completely failed and killed one of the most sources of suspense.

[kjones]

But, that may be very subjective. I would also claim that any game were death has degenerated into a minor inconvenience has utterly and completely failed and killed one of the most sources of suspense.

Agreed, but it's a different style of play. Not the sort I usually go for (I've never run a game above level 10... by the time you're throwing True Resurrections around, you're a bit beyond that) but Tippy seems to enjoy it.

As for the balancing, limiting the schools to which a wizard has access is a good idea, but keep in mind that there are plenty of ways to boost a spell DC other than a high casting stat, and you haven't even addressed metamagic, which is where a lot of the problems come from. Also, does this fix only apply to wizards/arcanists? If so, you've just made other classes a lot more appealing...

EDIT: Nevermind, that last point was addressed.

[Tequila Sunrise]

This reminds me of 2e specialist wizards who needed 15s or 16s in Dex, Con, Wis or Cha to specialize.

TS

[Kantolin]

I'd honestly still argue against this, if only because the splitting up of ability scores was one of the most hated aspects of the already clunky and unbalanced 3.0 Psionics (that and Psionic Combat, but that was a nightmare all of its own).

This particular idea has none of the brokenness of 3.0 psionics. This strictly makes spellcasters more MAD and puts a bit more of a theme to it (Illusionists tend to be charismatic, Abjurers seem to be wise). The OP took the idea of different schools requiring different stats, which does indeed help balance by nerfing the casters a bit.

The question is 'is it enough'. And while I don't think it quite patches up the problem, it does help.

As a note, I didn't think metamagic in general was the problem, but ways to bypass the spell level adjustment for them. Namely things like metamagic rods, arcane thesis, divine metamagic, etc.

[Sinfire Titan]

This particular idea has none of the brokenness of 3.0 psionics. This strictly makes spellcasters more MAD and puts a bit more of a theme to it (Illusionists tend to be charismatic, Abjurers seem to be wise). The OP took the idea of different schools requiring different stats, which does indeed help balance by nerfing the casters a bit.

The question is 'is it enough'. And while I don't think it quite patches up the problem, it does help.

As a note, I didn't think metamagic in general was the problem, but ways to bypass the spell level adjustment for them. Namely things like metamagic rods, arcane thesis, divine metamagic, etc.

It's more than just the metamagic. Spells can be outright broken with ease. Spells like Glitterdust, Web, Grease, Sleep, Color Spray, and Shivering Touch can easily unbalance an encounter.

Granted most of those spells can be easily bypassed, but that's because every enemy in the game can gain immunity to something. But nothing can gain immunity to everything.

A more extreme example is Astral Projection. The spell is abusive to all hell and back thanks to it bypassing the limit on the Vanican system alone. Never mind the fact that the same spell can win entire encounters outright thanks to sheer persistence (and a Fighter).

Spells like Wish, which are so horrifically open-ended that they can be made to do anything, are also problematic.

Then you get into couch-wreckers like MDJ...

In all, only a handful of spells are actually balanced, the rest are broken in one definition of the word or another. In order to balance a Wizard, you need to nerf it hard then pin down it's focus. Do you leave powerful but easily avoided spells like Grease and Web in so they are still a good class? Or do you force them into a Party Buffer or Debuffer roll? Regardless, you have to restrict their versatility before any balance can come from the class.

[Charlie Kemek]

I made a few changes, such as making it require a score like it would of a casting stat, (11 to cast first level spells...etc.) I was wondering if that made it too powerful? I also made universal require the stat in all three (wish would require 19 int, wis, and cha). Is that too much? if it is, I could make it to something as follows: in order for a wizard to cast a spell in the transmution school, he/she would need a 10+spell level int, and a 10+(spell level/2 rounded up) cha. Polymorph requirements: 14 int, 12 Cha.

[Kantolin]

It's more than just the metamagic. Spells can be outright broken with ease. Spells like Glitterdust, Web, Grease, Sleep, Color Spray, and Shivering Touch can easily unbalance an encounter.


Er... I didn't mean spells in general weren't broken - spells (especailly of the arcane variety) are incredibly powerful, which is indeed the problem. I was referring more specifically to Kjones, with:


and you haven't even addressed metamagic, which is where a lot of the problems come from.

And noting that metamagic in specific isn't what most people see as wrong - simply the ability to use metamagic without actaully raising spell level.

This change, however, reduces the quantity of the above spells that a given caster will have at potency. Making it charisma based means that your typical wizard won't have access to a potent glitterdust, sleep, or color spray. He'd still have grease, so he still would be powerful, but noticably less. (This also seems to favor the sorceror, who is less powerful than the wizard as is, thus it isn't bad to even things up a touch).

Now, it doesn't address say greater invisibility and fly, neither of which require saves and thus don't care that your wizard's charisma is 8, but this is at least a step in a balanced direction as it is a bit weakening, but not quite crippling.

[Charlie Kemek]

Now, it doesn't address say greater invisibility and fly, neither of which require saves and thus don't care that your wizard's charisma is 8, but this is at least a step in a balanced direction as it is a bit weakening, but not quite crippling.

*points at change on first post and my last post*

[Pirate_King]

I actually really like this fix, and I think I might try it. But, is there any particular reason Transmutation is Cha? it seems like an Int kind of school to me.

Edit: also, both the new school of conjuration (summoning) and evocation which you've put creation into use Int, so you could just leave it alone and make conjuration int-based.

[jcsw]

I'd make summoning cha and transmutation int, if only to stop wizards having both Shadow Conjuration and Transmutation.

[Charlie Kemek]

I actually really like this fix, and I think I might try it. But, is there any particular reason Transmutation is Cha? it seems like an Int kind of school to me.

Edit: also, both the new school of conjuration (summoning) and evocation which you've put creation into use Int, so you could just leave it alone and make conjuration int-based.

The problem with making Transmution INT based is that Conj is already int based, and makes more sense that way. trans and conj are the 2 most powerful schools, so I need to split them up.

Also, I personally thought Conjuration is a little haphazard. does about 10 things at once.

[Charlie Kemek]

I'd make summoning cha and transmutation int, if only to stop wizards having both Shadow Conjuration and Transmutation.

um...Sorcerers have it, not wizards, but yeah. that might be a problem. I might make the Shadow line of spells require full stats in whatever school they are replicating. yea. I will do that.

Thanks for all the comments Playgrounders! Can people see if it is balanced, unbalanced, etc?

[Charlie Kemek]

*bump*

Seriously. does anyone have constructive criticism (and possible solutions) for this? everyone hates it or likes it.

[Fawsto]

Nice. Needs to be a little more polished and playtested. Please, go on with this and report your results.

BTW. The idea to keep the MAD on the classes is good, but take care to not vanquish with a class by making another one use every abilities it needed. I do not really know which are the best magic schools out there, but find some excuse to not rule them with the same stat, as it would be an invitation to abuse.

[Charlie Kemek]

Nice. Needs to be a little more polished and playtested. Please, go on with this and report your results.

BTW. The idea to keep the MAD on the classes is good, but take care to not vanquish with a class by making another one use every abilities it needed. I do not really know which are the best magic schools out there, but find some excuse to not rule them with the same stat, as it would be an invitation to abuse.

see, the 3 best are divided up, and the most powerful is nerfed a little. the wizard, which is right now, more powerful then the sorcerer, gets not quite as good schools as the sorcerer, which is less powerful. the cleric always has high wis, and now cha is even more important. should I make domain spells rely off one stat?

Thanks for the complement. I am not in or running any games right now, and I don't really have the time, so could someone else?

[Fawsto]

I would love to... But my group is somewhat composed of conservative facists who only care about the rules in the books: they are wussies.

Now, this is was a joke, my group is incredible and we always have fun, but I always have a damn hard time trying to convince them to test something of the hook.

If I manage (already faved this page) I will report back ASAP, but, really, very low probability...

About domains. Hard to tell... Lemme see, it would be very hard for, lets say, a Cleric specailized in Wis, with the war domain where most of the domain spells are based on Cha, for example.

I would say, let domain spells be based on a free ability. Otherwise the Cleric would regret that his 9th level spell is based on Int while his entire build is Cha.

No good ideas are recurring to me witgh now... Pehaps because it is 2 o'clock in the morning and I am almost sleepy drunk...

Anyway, If I get a glimpse of genius from today to tomorrow, I'll leave a post.

Good luck.