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Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-01, 12:32 AM
I'm joining a 3.5 game and I've been looking to refine this paladin build I found on the WOTC boards.


----------INC Wall of Spam for Stormshadow (Ninjarabbit)--------------
So I researched and read alot of books/forums and put this together...


1 CL/6 Paladin/ 3 Pious Templar / 10 Fist of Raziel

Hu(Divine Might)
(1)Power Attack
(1)Weapon Focus [Domain Feat]
(3)Sacred Vit
(6)True Believer
(9)Servant of the heavens
(12)Battle Blessing
(15)Divine Vigor
(18)Leadership Or Divine Shield (Since he wont have a mount its in the air..)
Lv/BAB/Saves
1 0 2 0 2
-------------------
2 1 4 0 2
3 2 5 0 2
4 3 5 1 3
5 4 6 1 3
6 5 6 1 3
7 6/1 7 2 4
-------------------
8 7/2 9 2 6
9 8/3 10 2 7
10 9/4 10 3 7
-------------------
11 10/5 12 3 7
12 11/6/1 13 3 7
13 12/7/2 13 4 8
14 13/8/3 14 4 8
15 14/9/4 14 4 8
16 15/10/5 15 5 9
17 16/11/6/1 15 5 9
18 17/12/7/2 16 5 9
19 18/13/8/3 16 5 9
20 19/14/9/4 17 5 9

HD 1d8/6d10/3d10/10d10
2 for cleric spells
2/1/1/1 for paladin spells

Cleric: Two Domains/Spontaneous Casting/Turn Undead/Aura (Best Dip known to man)

Paladin:
1st: Aura of Good/Detect Evil/Divine Grace/Lay on Hands
2nd: Aura of Courage/Smite Evil 1/
3rd: Remove Disease/Turn Undead
4th: Spells (Yay!)
5th: Smite Evil 2/ Special Mount -Variant (See Below)
6th: Remove Disease 2 (Curse Breaker)??? (And For the 15th level gain from Underdark Knight)

Underdark Knight (CC, p 49): Lose special mount. Gain low-light vision, and a bonus to climb, jump, and balance.
At 7th level, gain spike stones. At 12th level gain earth glide. At 15th level gain dimension door.

Low Light Vision: Major Plus for Crawling around under the earth.

Spike Stones: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeStones.htm Nice for setting up a rear guard.

Earth Glide (Ex): The Paladin can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily
as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence.
A move earth spell cast on an area containing the burrowing Paladin flings the Paladin back 30 feet, stunning it
for 1 round unless it makes a DC 15 Fortitude save. (lol DC 15 Fort)

Dimension Door: Only usable at level 20 since Paladin Level would hit 15 at 20???

Pious Templar: The Steve Nash of the build.

1st: Mettle
2nd: Smite 1
3rd: DR 1

Mettle (Su): A pious templar's special blessing allows her to shrug off magical effects that would otherwise harm her.
If a pious templar makes a successful Will or Fortitude saving throw that would normally reduce the spell's effect,
she suffers no effect from the spell at all.
Only those spells with a Saving Throw entry of "Will partial," "Fortitude half," or similar entries can be negated through this ability.

Fist of Raziel: The Icing on the cake.

1st: Magic Circle/Smite evil 1 (Good Aligned)
2nd: +1 level of existing class
3rd: Smite evil 2 (Confirming)/+1 level of existing class
4th: Sanctify Martial Strike/+1 level of existing class
5th: Smite Evil 3 (Holy)/+1 level of existing class
6th: Sunder Evil Item/+1 level of existing class
7th: Smite Evil 4 (Fiendsmite)/+1 level of existing class
8th: +1 level of existing class
9th: Smite Evil 5 (Chain)/+1 level of existing class
10th Holy Martial Strike/+1 level of existing class

Magic Circle (Su): A 1st-level fist of Raziel is constantly surrounded by a magic circle against evil effect,
as the spell cast by a cleric of the fist's total character level.

Good-Aligned: At 1st level, whenever a fist of Raziel smites evil, her weapon is considered good-aligned for purposes of bypassing the damage reduction
of some evil outsiders, as if she had the Exalted Smite feat.

Confirming: At 3rd level, whenever a fist of Raziel smites evil, all critical rolls are automatically successful
(so every threat is a critical hit). This works even if the weapon has a magical effect related to critical hits,
unlike the similar effect of the bless weapon spell.)

Sanctify Martial Stirke at 4th level: Whenever you wield a specific kind of weapon it deals 1 extra point of damage to evil creatures
or 1d4 points to evil outsiders and evil undead. In addition that weapon is considered good-aligned for purposes of
overcomming damage reduction.

Holy: At 5th level, whenever a fist of Raziel smites evil, her weapon is considered holy, dealing an extra 2d6 points of damage against evil creatures.
This additional damage stacks with the additional damage she deals from the smite.
However, it does not stack with the benefit of the Sanctify Martial Strike feat or with the extra damage dealt by a weapon with the holy weapon property.

Sunder Evil Item (Su): At 6th level, whenever a fist of Raziel attacks an object that is evil
(such asan unholy sword or a darkskull) or an evil construct (such as a retriever),
she deals double damage. This does not stack with the benefits of the Great Sunder feat.

Fiendsmite: At 7th level, whenever a fist of Raziel smites evil, her weapon deals an extra 2d8 points of damage against evil outsiders and evil undead,
instead of the +2d6 normally dealt by a holy weapon. If she also has the Exalted Smite feat, this damage is still doubled.

Chain: At 9th level, whenever a fist of Raziel smites evil, bolts of holy power erupt from the target creature and strike
up to 5 additional evil targets within 30 feet, chosen by the fist of Raziel. Targets take 2d6 points of damage, or 2d8
if they are evil outsiders or evil undead. A successful Reflex save (DC 15 + the fist of Raziel's Charisma modifier)
reduces the damage by half.


Holy Martial Strike (Su): Any weapon that a 10th-level fist of Raziel wields is treated as a holy weapon,
dealing an extra 2d6 points of damage to evil creatures,even when he is not smiting evil.
This additional damage does not stack with the benefit of the Sanctify Martial Strike feat
or with the extra damage dealt by a weapon with the holy weapon property.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Few questions though.
1.With the Underdark build is dimension door a spell or spell like ability and would the paladin be able to cast it at 20 since Fist makes him level 15?

2. Is smite a standard action? Say you Rhino rush, charge in divine might,power attack and smite evil. Would that allow you to take a full attack? (I'm confused on the subject.)

3. Is there an item to increase how many spells you can cast like a ring of wizardry but for divine spells?

4.How exactly does a divine metamagic feat work to make spells last longer?

I really like the look of this build, but I need to ask a couple questions. I'm having trouble figuring out exactly how it's set up. Is there a way I could get a sort of level-by-level plan of this to see what to take at what level? What are the general tactics involved? Does this rely on the worship of any particular deity or the use of a particular weapon?

ErrantX
2008-12-01, 12:46 AM
I would assume you'd build level 1 cleric, then go all 6 paladin (due to paladin's multiclass restrictions) and then so on. Your feats are all lined up level by level, as are your class abilities. Seems incredibly cut and dry. Your paladin and templar spells are just little added extras and your Fist of Raziel / Cleric level is what is going to give you the bulk of your magical abilities. In the end, you'll have plenty of low level heals and good bulk of fighting prowess as well as spell casting might. Focus on buff spells as you're predominantly a warrior class and have your paladin/templar spells be memmed for cure light and such for after battle or for stabilizing injured characters. Religion really depends on what game world you'll be playing on. I'd recommend a longsword or a bastard sword really, depending on your god choices. Or greatsword if you're not using a shield (as a paladin, I really recommend the sword and shield combo). If you can, select a deity with access to the War and Glory domains for some bad ass spells. Tactically, get yourself in the thick of things where you belong and be the group tank.

Enjoy your munchkin.
-X

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-01, 12:50 AM
Hieroneous it is, then! Should I just use the longsword, or should I try to convince my DM to allow me to use a battleaxe (Hieroneous's original favored weapon)?

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-01, 12:56 AM
Never mind, I saw your reccomendation of longsword.:smallredface:

Isn't being a munchkin essential to make a paladin in 3.5 that doesn't suck?

Belobog
2008-12-01, 01:37 AM
Well, there are a few things that seem a bit off to me...

-Starting with Cleric 1. He lists Turn Undead twice, once as a cleric, once as a paladin. I'm not entirely sure it works like that...if it does, you essentially have a large battery of Turn Undead attempts to burn through with those feats. The other benefits aren't so great...the domains could be good for their powers, but without knowing what they are, I can't say.

-Which leads to the True Believer feat. True Believer lets you qualify for certain powerful artifacts as determined by your god. Note that second part, it's important. Without telling us the god, or what items it needs, I'm left in the lurch about it. If you're really thinking of taking it, run it by your DM and see if he's okay with it.

-The Underdark Knight substitution features requires paladin levels to function, from my understanding of the book it comes from [Complete Champion]. Thus, he wouldn't get any of the abilities that you would get for level 7 on up, because he's a paladin for 6 levels and no more. Maybe he's relying on Fist of Raziel levels to stack with paladin for that purpose, but I don't think it works that way.

Other than that, it's as Errant said; just add water, and heat. Instant paladin.

Keld Denar
2008-12-01, 02:46 AM
I also don't like the 1 level cleric dip. It just doesn't add enough for the hit to BAB. I'd rather skip the 1 cleric and 3 pious templar levels and take 4 levels of Ordained Champion (Complete Champion). Granted, this doesn't give you the ability to spontaniously cast war domain spells, but all of the other features work well. You can use Divine Might AND OrdChamp's Smite AND your Paladin Smite at the same time.

Plus, this gets you out of having to take Blech True Believer. Its really a crappy feat unless you KNOW your DM is gonna give you a relic. Otherwise BLECH.

Final build would be: Paladin4/OrdainedChamp4/Fist10....??? You could take 2 more levels of Paladin, or I dunno...Doesn't really matter.

If you REALLY want to get snazzy, you could do something like Paladin5/Fighter2/Divine Crusader1/OrdainedChampion4/Fist8. With the Charging Smite ACF from PHBII. This gets you 2 domains, one of which is War, up to 9th level casting (get a neato one like Travel for mobility spells. Kelanan(A Hero God) from Greyhawk has both War and Travel, favored weapon ANY SWORD. The Lord of Blades has sword and will travel. You qualify for Ordained Champ from Pal4 (gives you Magic Weapon as a divine Spell) and Weapon Focus double qualifies you for OrdainedChamp and Divien Crusader.

Divine Crusader is in Complete Warrior or Divine, forget which atm. I could give you a more detailed breakdown of each build if you were interested. I also have a little somethin somethin that is KINDA paladiny, but comes in a more Dwarfy flavor. Lemme know if that interests you as well.

Hmmmm, this is like, my 3rd Divine Crusader build in a day. I guess I like this class.

EDIT: Turn Undead from two seperate sources does NOT add extra uses per day. You add up your effective level for each class and add them together.

Paladins get TU at 4th, and calc at Pal-3, Clerics get it at 1 and count full. Thus, a Paladin10/Cleric10 would turn as a 17th level cleric. Thats all that means, he still only has 3+cha turns per day, unless modified by items or feats.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-01, 08:16 AM
Does Kelanen have paladin followers? The DM requires me to have any books I use approved by him. And I was under the impression that all the bonus classes from Complete Champion were weak, given that it was judged as an overall poor book.

Kizara
2008-12-01, 08:55 AM
Does Kelanen have paladin followers? The DM requires me to have any books I use approved by him. And I was under the impression that all the bonus classes from Complete Champion were weak, given that it was judged as an overall poor book.

Its a very poorly made and presented book, but some of its material is extremely overpowered.

Don't confuse crappy editing, creativity and publishing ability with an inability to make poorly-balanced mechanical choices. :)

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-01, 09:16 AM
And the Ordained Champion has what exactly?

Keld Denar
2008-12-01, 10:52 AM
And the Ordained Champion has what exactly?

OC is a 5 level PrC from Complete Champion. It has 3/5 spellcasting progression at levels 1, 3, and 5. At level 1, you get War as a bonus domain, or add War to your spell list if you normally don't get domains (IE, not clerical type caster, although Divine Champion would get the domain). Its jam packed full of neato abilities, including the ability to burn turn attempts to smite foes, spontaneously cast spells from the war domain (if you could spontaneously heal or inflict), the ability to burn spell slots for DR/Chaotic, and a channel spells ability that functions kind of like a Spell Storing weapon, and to cast any spell from a War domain slot as a swift action (autoquicken).

Its basically a millitant devoted soldier of either Heironeous or Hextor (who are brothers) who can trade their normal divinely granted skills for holy offensive power. The fluff could easily be rewritten for any strongly lawful god if you aren't playing in Greyhawk or core. Tyr or Helm come to mind for FR, and the Silver Flame in Ebberon would work.

Its kind of strong, although its full potential lies in the hands of a nearly full caster cleric, and the only REAL abuse out of it is if its combined with Ruby Knight Vindicator from ToB:Bo9S (fluff contrast) because you can basically burn all of your turn attempts and all of your 5th level+ spell slots to cast like, 20 Flame Strikes in a round, although with recent ToB FaQ answers, RKV's Divine Impetus is only useable once a round, so its only 2 flame strikes a round if you go by the FaQ.

Combining OC with Divine Crusader is kind of a nerf to OC, since you can't use ~3 of the abilities you get from it, but its so chock full of useful abilities that its still worth it. The fact that you lose 2 caster levels doesn't actually matter for Divine Crusader, since by finishing it with FoR, you still get 10/10 DC casting by level 20 which grants 9th level spells.

I guess in hindsight, Kelanan wouldn't be a good god, since review of his fluff here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelanen) dictates that he is True Neutral, and actually very against the 4 dooms (Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil). Thus a LG alignment wouldn't be legal for a follower of the Lord of Swords, since as a divine caster, you can't be more than 1 alignment deviation from your diety. Thats too bad, though, because having War and Travel tacked onto Divine Crusader casting progression would be pretty awesome. Unfortunately, most of Big H's domains are pretty lackluster. Glory might be decent, giving you access to the spell Holy Sword, but Good, Inquisition, and Law wouldn't be tremendously helpful in your case. Mayaheine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayaheine) might be a good alternative, the ascended paladin daughter of Pelor. Same stuff and fluff as Big H, but more obscure and more cool. You'd have to get OC blessed for her though, since its technically not allowed by RAW. As long as you are looking for a god Pholtus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholtus) might be a decent alternative, although still no Travel domain. And crap, Pholtus doesn't have War, which kind of goes against the flavor of OC. Saint Cuthbert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Cuthbert_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)) is another pretty paladiny god, although again no War domain. Does get Str domain which allows you to cast Enlarge Person, which is nice though. Al Akbar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al%27Akbar) also accepts paladins, but no War domain, and not even any very good domains. Gah, all paladin gods have the same freakin domains. If you don't mind a little bearded love, Moradin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moradin) has the Earth domain, which is kind of fun, although sadly still no War.

Gah, looks like its the Big H, or Pelor's Paladin daughter Mayaheine if you want to go Ordained Champion.

Eldariel
2008-12-01, 11:08 AM
Actually, Ordained Champion-casting is 2, 3 and 5. That's what makes it interesting. Ordained Champion best lends itself to (Cloistered) Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5 - the BAB falls nicely and you get better casting that way.

In flavour, it's a Paladin of H, basically. Really, I can't find any relevant difference between Ordained Champion and Paladin other than Ordained Champion is more in-line with the Big 3's power, and Paladin has a horse.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-01, 02:27 PM
If I remember correctly Ordained Champions can only worship either Heironeous or Hextor, so it looks like I'd have to worship the Big H anyhow. Who are the Big 3?

And if I were to build this with Ordained Champion levels instead of Cleric and Pious Templar levels, how would I go about that?

Keld Denar
2008-12-01, 02:43 PM
Yea, the fluff of OC is only for Heironious or Hextor (brothers and opposite sides of the lawful good/evil coin). Like I said though, its just fluff, and pretty easy to shift to anothe god of similar LG or LE zeal.

As far as build? Just like I posted

Pal1 Open Feat
Pal2
Pal3 Power Attack
Pal4
Pal5
Ftr1 Divine Might/Weapon Focus: Longsword (or Battle Axe with old aspect)
Ftr2 Open Feat (Fighter Bonus only)
DC1
OC1 Awesome Smite (Complete Champ feat)
OC2
OC3
OC4 Law Devotion
FoR1
FoR2
FoR3 Open Feat
FoR4
FoR5
FoR6 Open Feat
FoR7
FoR8

For your open feats, pick something that appeals to you. Open for customization. I believe all of your OC levels and FoR levels should advance your Divine Crusader spellcasting.

Ends with Full BAB, 9th level spells in 2 domains (I'd do War and Glory) and really nice smiting. Awesome Smiting is a tactical feat from Complete Champion that lets you do neato stuff with your smites, like penetrate DR, or knock people down. Good stuff.

EDIT: Big 3 are Wizard, Cleric, Druid, the most commonly cited most powerful classes in the game.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-01, 02:46 PM
I see. Thank you! I'll see what I can do with this.:smallsmile:

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-01, 03:19 PM
Where should I insert Servant of the Heavens? That's a requirement for the FoR.

Eldariel
2008-12-01, 03:28 PM
First level?

Keld Denar
2008-12-01, 03:37 PM
Any where it says Open Feat. Those are feats that I couldn't think of anything atm to put in em. Take whatever you want.

I'd recommend using your long sword 2handed. You get a better return on PA that way. You could always carry a shield with you if you need the extra AC. Law Devotion and Divine Shield could crank your AC up pretty respectably, but I'd get an Animated Shield at some point. Otherwise, wield 2handed and use your bonus to hit from Smite and Law Devotion to fuel your Power Attack for big numbers.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-01, 08:18 PM
I see. I'll keep both builds in mind and double-check my books when I get home after finals. I should have all the books both these builds require.

Keld Denar
2008-12-01, 11:26 PM
I might be a bit biased, but I like my build better than his. He loses a point of BAB, and cleric1 is a pretty anemic way to start adventuring if you are going to start at 1. Also, he splits his casting up. While he ends up with 5th level cleric spells and 2nd level paladin spells, and 1st level paladin spells, I get full 9th level casting from 2 domains. A couple 9th level spells are better than a handful of mediochre mid level spells.

Most people over on CharOps are pretty convinced that a single level of cleric is about the best dip known to man though. I just hate seeing it hanging there providing nothing but domains.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-01, 11:57 PM
I see. To be honest I don't know if I'll be starting at one. I'll end up missing the first month or so of sessions, since the game's here in La Crosse, and I'm going home to Hastings for the holidays.

I do like your build though. It's more focused than the other one.

Keld Denar
2008-12-02, 12:08 AM
La Crosse eh? I used to game with a guy there named Gary Sarver. He used to do a LOT of coordinating with Living Greyhawk in the game. Cool guy too. I don't have his contact info, though he shouldn't be hard to look up. I don't know how interested in 4e you are, but he probably still does a lot of coordinating with the new Living Realms campaign. Great guy though, will bend over backwards to get you into a game if you are interested.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-02, 12:29 AM
Not sure if I've met him. I'll check next time the LFR group I've joined meets.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-02, 03:39 PM
Was wondering something. Would it work to swap the open feat at 1st level with Power Attack? I don't think I can take Servant of the Heavens at level 1, and that's a required feat for FoR.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-02, 07:45 PM
What are the requirements for Servant Of The Heavens anyway (aside from a Lawful Good alignment?)

Keld Denar
2008-12-02, 08:05 PM
Crystalkeep is your friend!


Servant of the Heavens
[Exalted] (BoED p46)
Pledged fealty to one of the rulers of the Seven Heavens (LG)

Once per day, you receive a +1 Luck bonus on any one roll or check. You must be performing a good act.

You may not take ‘Favored of the Companions’ or ‘Knight of Stars’ after taking this feat.

The only prereq is to pledge fealty, not a terribly difficult thing to do. Kind of a crappy feat, but prereqs usually are. Otherwise no one would take them!

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-02, 08:30 PM
Still, I think it'd make more sense to swear fealty to Raziel after I've established myself as an adventurer a little.