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View Full Version : Racial HD that are actually worth it...?



JellyPooga
2008-12-01, 11:59 AM
Now I know that Racial HD and LA are generally not worth the effort...Class Levels almost always trump either (with some, normally on the broken side, exceptions). However, I was persusing Sandstorms' "New Monsters" section the other day and discovered the Marruspawn; specifically the Marrulurks (or whatever they're called...the small sneaky assassin ones). For all that they have 3 Racial HD of Monstrous Humanoid HD (not exactly top of the tree generally) and +1 LA, they actually have a set of abilitieswhich are a fair approximation to something worth taking...Full BAB, Sneak Attack, Death Attack, pretty good ability score modifiers and breath so bad it can incapacitate your foes, not to mention the "can hear where people are standing" ability common to all Marruspawn...on the other hand, they're slow (due to size) and the save DC's on their abilities is kinda naff and they're pretty much specific to desert settings (when are you ever going to encounter one outside a desert?). Throw in the Unearthed Arcana LA Buyback and you've got yourself a pretty effective exotic combat-rogue...persuade your DM to allow your Death Attack DC to stack with one from a PrC and you're looking at a better than average Assassin-type too.

Anyways, it got me thinking about Racial HD in general and made me wonder what other lesser known worthwhile Monstrous playable character races are out there...any suggestions?

Sinfire Titan
2008-12-01, 12:06 PM
Not exactly lesser-known, but the Anthropomorphic template is quite a bit more valuable than non-caster levels. If your party Fighter is looking for a good race, Anthro Baleen Whale is widely regarded as the best for him, and even Druids like Anthro Bat.

Granted, this is incredibly overpowered unless the right creature is used, but it fits the bill.

Adumbration
2008-12-01, 12:07 PM
My personal favourite is Yak Folk from MM II. 5 racial hd, 2 LA, but the abilities and ability score modifiers totally make it worthwhile. Look it up.

TheCountAlucard
2008-12-01, 12:13 PM
Outsider RHD are fairly awesome. d8 Hid Dice, full BAB, all good saves, simple and martial weapon proficiencies, not needing to eat or sleep, and gets skill points as a rogue? Of course, most of the playable outsiders either have a crazy level adjustment, or only one HD, which gets wiped over when you take your first level in whatever.

jcsw
2008-12-01, 12:15 PM
I wouldn't exactly call Ambush Drake (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a) broken, but at full BAB, d12 HD and three good saves, its a pretty solid choice. With ZERO LA!

(-4 Int though...)

JackMage666
2008-12-01, 12:15 PM
I've never actually met a DM that would allow a Marrulurk in the game, because they are REALLY strong for an ECL 4 character, surpassing a Rogue of the same level, with tons of benefits to boot. They miscalculated the LA on that one.

Generally speaking, Outsider HD and Dragon HD are generally considered pretty fair as far as racial HD go. Fey HD can make for OK skill monkeys, but definitely arn't for fighters. Magical Beast and Monstrous Humanoid are decent enough to not be totally crippling, but pretty much all the other are awful. A few have saving graces, like Elemental, if you can get them (immunities are awesome), but it's not the HD itself that make those great.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-01, 12:20 PM
I'm fond of Whitespawn Hordelings. 2 Monstrous Humanoid HD, +1 LA, but you pick up the cold and dragonblood subtypes, 40' landspeed, 20' fly speed (clumsy), darkvision 60', natural armor +2, small size, 1d4 bite attack, 30' cone of cold (1d6 cold, 1d4 round recharge--a decent DM will work a way to scale damage by level), +5 racial to balance and climb, TWF as a bonus feat, and Con +4, Int -6, Wis -2, Cha -2. They make really interesting Dragonfire Adepts and Totemists.

Mando Knight
2008-12-01, 12:34 PM
Dragon HD is definitely worth it... especially if it's from being a True Dragon--Reds and many of the Metallics (as well as one or two other Chromatics) have caster levels starting at Young age, which makes their LA almost worth it...

LibraryOgre
2008-12-01, 12:35 PM
As a matter of policy, I allow people to replace Racial HD with the various NPC classes. It's not useful for those who have Dragon or Outsider HD, but for most it's useful, at least as an option to make a "thinky" type (with an expert's skills), a "warrior" type, or a "mixed" type using the aristocrat class, or a "magical" type using the adept class (or my own variation, the hedge wizard). The only limitation is that they don't get their racial WP and AP in this case; just the weapons and armor specified by their classes. On a point by point comparison, they come out about equal to the regular HD options.

I even use those classes to expand the various animals... a war-trained horse picks up a level of warrior, gaining more HP and BAB, while a bloodhound would take levels in Expert... while his intelligence wipes out most of his skill points, the ability to have any 10 skills as class skills makes him competent at tracking.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-01, 12:38 PM
Outsider HD aren't too bad. All high saves,full BAB, Darkvision, d8 HD, all martial weapon proficencies... hell, it's better than monk anyways. And you gain the lack of needing to eat or sleep.

Glimbur
2008-12-01, 01:30 PM
I've been working at a Gloura Bard/Sublime Chord. Sure, there's seven racial hit dice, but fey hit dice are a lot like bard levels anyway, and since you cast as a 7th level bard for those 7 HD and +2 LA about all you lose out on is music. In exchange, nice boosts especially to Dex and Cha, Cha to AC and saves, and a 60' good fly speed.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e

graymachine
2008-12-01, 01:44 PM
Skulk from Races of Destiny is really good for a rogue character. Aside from massive racial bonus to hide and move silently (+15, I think), they have a racial ability to run while hidden, plus some other stealth-enhancing abilities. Well worth their racial HD.

JellyPooga
2008-12-01, 01:53 PM
I've never actually met a DM that would allow a Marrulurk in the game, because they are REALLY strong for an ECL 4 character, surpassing a Rogue of the same level, with tons of benefits to boot. They miscalculated the LA on that one.

I'm not so sure they did get it wrong...I mean even if you can persuade your DM to stack the Death Attack DC with Assassin or other Death Attack granting PrC's, it only works out as +1 bonus from those racial HD. The DC on the bad breath is appalling at any level higher than about 5th, when any creature with a non-negative Con mod can pass the save without batting an eyelid. Sure, Full BAB and Sneak attack is good, but it's coupled with relatively low skill points and mediocre HD (well o.k. it's the middle-ground HD and skills, but it's certainly not good). About the only thing about them that might be considered busted is their ability score mods and two bonus feats, which I'll admit are quite good (though the bonus feats aren't going to be much use to a non-ranged character). They've no Natural Weapons, relatively low Natural Armour, they're slow(er than average), have to use small weapons (which I'll admit is offset somewhat by the Sneak Attack), no SLA's and a Racial Skill bonus that's not vastly game-breaking. Dessication Resistance isn't much of a bonus if you're not playing in a desert setting and being able to locate someone by hearing can be replicated better by many other means. The whole 'Zymes' thing is just a bit weird and very unlikely to be used at all, given the lack of price, crafting rules or availability.

I agree that they're strong at ECL 4, but crank them any higher then ECL 8 to 10 with Class levels and, like any other exotic playable creature, I think you'll find them begin to lack in comparison to more...mundane...races, especially when it comes to spellcasting...

Skaven
2008-12-01, 02:03 PM
If your party Fighter is looking for a good race, Anthro Baleen Whale is widely regarded as the best for him.

How would that even look? I'm horribly curious!

Has anyone ever come across a picture of something like that?

mangosta71
2008-12-01, 02:14 PM
The utility of racial HD really depends on your class. If you want to play a sorcerer, a rakshasa is pretty solid, as you cast as a level 7 sorcerer by the time you finish your RHD, in addition to the lovely ability boosts and abilities. Likewise, dopplegangers have wonderfully useful abilities for rogues and telepaths, and (psionic) mind flayers are particularly vicious telepaths.

Something that my brother mentioned that I've been wanting to do for a while is a troll sorcerer. Focus on melee touch spells and turn into the ultimate battlemage. One day....

Fax Celestis
2008-12-01, 02:29 PM
I forgot Redspawn Arcaniss. They have innate sorceror casting, so they're pretty decent. With a one-level spellthief dip, they can walk into the Spellwarp Sniper class and be pretty terrifying.

Sinfire Titan
2008-12-01, 02:48 PM
How would that even look? I'm horribly curious!

Has anyone ever come across a picture of something like that?

Stormwrack has something similar with an Anthro Orca, but that's a legitimate race (rather than the broken that is Anthro Template). WotC's galleries has it.

Person_Man
2008-12-01, 02:53 PM
My favorite example is the Entomanothrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a) - basically a Lycanthrope for vermin.

The non-cheesy player will pick up something like Giant Bee, and get DR 5/silver, immunity to mind effecting effects, fly (80 good), +2 NA, darkvision, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Int, a weak poison attack, and the ability to command vermin, in exchange for +2 LA and 3 racial vermin HD. Head into Warshaper, and you have a very respectable melee build.

A cheesy player will pick something like the sword spider (Monsters of Faerun). This will get you DR 5/silver, immunity to mind effecting effects, Large size when in vermin or hybrid form, 9 natural attacks, +8 Str, +4 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Int, a mediocre poison attack, and Impalement (basically a weak version of Pounce), and the ability to command vermin, in exchange for +2 LA and 5 racial vermin HD. Pick up two levels of Kensai (enchant all 8 of your legs with Spell Storing) and you can kill basically anyone if you win Initiative.

Chronos
2008-12-01, 02:59 PM
Outsider RHD are fairly awesome. d8 Hid Dice, full BAB, all good saves, simple and martial weapon proficiencies, not needing to eat or sleep, and gets skill points as a rogue?The best are sylphs (MM II). In addition to all the usual outsider goodness, they also have sorcerer spellcasting. And unlike most spellcasting outsiders, it's explicitly tied to their RHD, and is actually two levels higher. And you can advance them by RHD up to something like 11 HD. Let's see... I can get sorcerer casting from sorcerer levels, with a d4 HD, good Will, and lousy BAB, or I can get sorcerer casting from sylph HD, with a d8, all saves, and full BAB. Let me think about that for a moment...

monty
2008-12-02, 12:16 AM
The best are sylphs (MM II). In addition to all the usual outsider goodness, they also have sorcerer spellcasting. And unlike most spellcasting outsiders, it's explicitly tied to their RHD, and is actually two levels higher. And you can advance them by RHD up to something like 11 HD. Let's see... I can get sorcerer casting from sorcerer levels, with a d4 HD, good Will, and lousy BAB, or I can get sorcerer casting from sylph HD, with a d8, all saves, and full BAB. Let me think about that for a moment...

They also have no LA, though. And they advance up to 9 HD, but with sorcerer casting RHD+4.

Deth Muncher
2008-12-02, 12:40 AM
My personal favourite is Yak Folk from MM II. 5 racial hd, 2 LA, but the abilities and ability score modifiers totally make it worthwhile. Look it up.

They've got a racial bonus to Innuendo!

If ya know what I mean.


(Cookies if you can detect the multiple jokes!)

ChaosDefender24
2008-12-02, 06:29 AM
Incarnate Construct when applied to Maugs (Fiend Folio) makes for a true monster

graymachine
2008-12-02, 12:21 PM
The construct comment reminds me that, while you can't take racial HD (I think) the Half-Golem templates are all great despite their high LA. The Half-Clay Golem is one of the necessary template to build the character that can't be damaged, IIRC.

RMS Oceanic
2008-12-02, 12:41 PM
They also have no LA, though. And they advance up to 9 HD, but with sorcerer casting RHD+4.

Having consulted the 3.5 errata for MMII, they do indeed have LA, namely +5. But for better saves, hit dice, BAB, skill points, a fly speed and invisibility at will, an effective LA of +1 for a sorceror is a good deal, in my opinion.