7 best feats for fighter and wizard

[Shiva]

What are 7 best feats for fighter and what are for wizard?

[Shiva]

Which one is stronger 18th level wizard or 18th level fighter?

[Pie Guy]

Which one is stronger 18th level wizard or 18th level fighter?

A wizard. All who disagree shall be struck by dominate person.

[Stupendous_Man]

Which one is stronger 18th level wizard or 18th level fighter?
A monk, of course.

[Yukitsu]

A wizard. All who disagree shall be struck by dominate person.

I disagree. What kind of wizard puts points into strength? :smalltongue:

Oh right, a shape changing wizard. Silly me. :smallfrown:

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

.... oooookay... Sure Pie Guy. :smallconfused:

now for an actual answer to the question :smallsmile:

Fighter.

1: Weapon Focus: (favorite weapon). Easy, simple, and hey, +1 to hit for a gateway feat is not all bad

2: Weapon Spec (Favorite Weapon). again, easy, simple, and +2 damage is never bad. The optimizers out there say that it is a waste of a feat, I rightfully disagree...

3: Melee Weapon Mastery (Favorite damage type). Adds additional hit and damage to all kinds of weapons that are the same type of your above choices.

4: Improved Bull Rush: smackage personified. Especially funny when paired with the above, Shock Trooper, and the Dungeonscape Fighter variant.

5: Power Attack: Needed for IBR.

6: Elusive Target: nothing like avoiding power attack damage from your power attacking foes. Also funny ability of ye get flankage by at least one rogue.

7: Martial Study: Iron Heart Surge. ToB is a must have book for all melee based campaigns.

-----

Wizard stuff:

Who cares. :smallyuk:

[Siosilvar]

Which one is stronger 18th level wizard or 18th level fighter?

Short answer: Wizard, hands down.

Someone will come along and provide the long answer shortly.

[DSCrankshaw]

It might help if Shiva clarified which edition he's playing.

In 3.5e, wizards are stronger. At 18th level he has access to 9th level spells, so it's really no contest.

In 4e, fighter's probably stronger.

[RTGoodman]

What are 7 best feats for fighter and what are for wizard?

Well, here's a start. I have no idea for Wizard, though.

Fighter:
1. Power Attack
2. Leap Attack
3. Shock Trooper
4. ?
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?


I disagree with Quirinus, though - some of those are usually some of the WORST feats a Fighter could take (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization), and some are only good because they can be used to qualify for the above. I was gonna add stuff from ToB, but if you're allowed that you should probably just play a Warblade anyway.

[Draz74]

All who disagree shall be struck by dominate person.

Try Dominate Monster, the save DC is higher. :smallcool:

Shiva: It depends on what build you're trying to make out of either of them. We could try to put together an "all-star feats" group, but it would be very subjective, and even then, we would need to know what sources are being allowed.

Core-Only? I'd say the best 7 all-around feats for a Fighter are:

Power Attack
Improved Initiative
Improved Trip
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)
Improved Critical (falchion, scimitar, etc.) Combat Reflexes
Mounted Combat
Iron Will

Obviously those don't all belong on the same build. (Don't try to specialize in the falchion and spiked chain with the same character. And you can't take Improved Trip without taking a prerequisite feat.) But "overall," them's my answers.

Wizard:

Empower Spell
Quicken Spell
Spell Focus (conjuration, transmutation, and necromancy)
Spell Penetration
Improved Initiative

[TempusCCK]

Wizards are more powerful than fighters by RAW, but with even a modicum of homebrewing you can bring it all together. Of course, nobody likes to talk about homebrewing because it's easier to just attack the system rather than work to fix it.


As for fighter feats, generally anything that gives you more options in combat. Unless you're going for straight power, and then just make a PA-Shocktroop-Leap Attack clone and have fun with your boring character.

Edit- There is a link to some of my own homebrewed fighter feats in ny signature. "Combat form" if you are interested in finding some unique and usable feats for a fighter.

[Sinfire Titan]

Wizards are more powerful than fighters by RAW, but with even a modicum of homebrewing you can bring it all together. Of course, nobody likes to talk about homebrewing because it's easier to just attack the system rather than work to fix it.


As for fighter feats, generally anything that gives you more options in combat. Unless you're going for straight power, and then just make a PA-Shocktroop-Leap Attack clone and have fun with your boring character.

Actually, it's because homebrewing means you aren't playing the same game. If you home brew the Wizard to be weaker, then you are admitting that the class is too powerful. If you home brew the Fighter, then you admit that the class is weaker.

[Eldariel]

Let's see, best Core Fighter-feats:

0. Leadership - Best feat in the game. Too good to be true though; most games simply don't allow it, whether because of the extra hassle from extra characters or the overall dumbness.

1. Power Attack - It's easy to pump To Hit; this makes it into damage too. Also, Shock Trooper. And piercing DR.

2. Improved Trip - Best means of attack; tripping someone stops them from moving, gives them -4 to AC, -4 to attacks, prevents most ranged attacks and makes them cause an attack of opportunity if they get up. Very few means of stopping it

3. Combat Reflexes - Free attacks. Wield a reach weapon, get Enlarged and you're good to go.

4. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain - since it allows you to hit adjacent and reach with two-handed damage while allowing trip (and disarm), it's actually worth the feat unlike most Exotic Weapons that just increase your damage by a hair.

5. Stand Still - Means to immobilize anything. The bigger they are, the worse their Reflex-saves. Great for protecting squishies.

6. Improved Initiative

7. Spirited Charge - Yea, if you go Mounted, this kicks ass. Multipliers are cool.

Non-core: Shock Trooper, Elusive Target, Combat Brute, Ranged Weapon Mastery, ToB (ok, ok, Shadow Blade, Stormguard Warrior, Martial Study, Martial Stance, a few others I can't remember offhand).

Wizard:

A bunch of metamagic and crafting feats. Oh, and Arcane Thesis/Easy Metamagic/Practical Metamagic if you seek to break the damn thing.

[Inyssius Tor]

Wizards are more powerful than fighters by RAW, but with even a modicum of homebrewing you can bring it all together. Of course, nobody likes to talk about homebrewing because it's easier to just attack the system rather than work to fix it.

Ooo-kay... I'm gonna go ahead and whip out the big :confused:, here. Please explain how your one-modicum miracle cure will magically rebalance the entire game, if you would?

I have discovered a truly marvellous proof of this, which this margin is too narrow to contain.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Well, here's a start. I have no idea for Wizard, though.

Fighter:
1. Power Attack
2. Leap Attack
3. Shock Trooper
4. ?
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?


I disagree with Quirinus, though - some of those are usually some of the WORST feats a Fighter could take (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization), and some are only good because they can be used to qualify for the above. I was gonna add stuff from ToB, but if you're allowed that you should probably just play a Warblade anyway.


I was considering a Core-Only game for most of the feats (save S/T, ToB reference, and Elusive Target). Shock Trooper I do believe to be one of the better feats. Some things about 3.x that I really do not like is the lack of really good low level feats. I was providing ones that most fighters can take early on to qualify for better feats. W/F and W/S are simply gateway feats. One of the scarier things that I built, was a Dragonborn (Flight) Dwarf Fighter with the Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, and Blood Spiked Charger tactical feats. It needed to have the W/F and W/S for both the spear and the spiked armor, but the build was worth it (it burned 4 feats). I wished I could have fit Improved Grapple and the Dungeonscape variant in there. Melee rules.

[monty]

Well, here's a start. I have no idea for Wizard, though.

Fighter:
1. Power Attack
2. Leap Attack
3. Shock Trooper
4. ?
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?

Improved Bull Rush, at least, if you plan on taking Shock Trooper. Improved Sunder and Combat Brute would come next, I think.

[Shiva]

Books: Core, the complete series(no psion), PHB/DMG2, the Forgotten Realm books, and Heroes of Battle

Then wizard is the best class in game?

[Stupendous_Man]

Books: Core, the complete series(no psion), PHB/DMG2, the Forgotten Realm books, and Heroes of Battle

Then wizard is the best class in game?

For arcane spellcasting, yes.

[Sinfire Titan]

For arcane spellcasting, yes.

And mostly everything else.

[RTGoodman]

Improved Bull Rush, at least, if you plan on taking Shock Trooper. Improved Sunder and Combat Brute would come next, I think.

I've never really seen anyone do much with Improved Bull Rush or Improved Sunder, though, except for counting Improved Bull Rush as the pre-req for Shock Trooper. Eldariel is onto something with the various Fighter battlefield-control feats - EWP (Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Knockdown, Stand-Still, etc.

[Shiva]

For arcane spellcasting, yes.

And they are better from fighters based on your answers.

What 7 feats should 18th level wizard take?

[RTGoodman]

What 7 feats should 18th level wizard take?

Usually, the ones that let him get into full-casting PrCs that have good class abilities ALONGSIDE full casting. Usually Spell Focus in a school or two, some good metamagic feats (Quicken, maybe Persistant spell, etc.), and stuff like that.

EDIT: @\/ - Ah, okay. I'm not familiar with Combat Brute, so I didn't know it needed Imp. Sunder.

[monty]

I've never really seen anyone do much with Improved Bull Rush or Improved Sunder, though, except for counting Improved Bull Rush as the pre-req for Shock Trooper. Eldariel is onto something with the various Fighter battlefield-control feats - EWP (Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Knockdown, Stand-Still, etc.

They're prerequisites, though, for Shock Trooper and Combat Brute respectively. That's why I mentioned them.

[Shiva]

OK I got:

Fighter:

Power Attack
Leap Attack
Shock Trooper
Improved Initiative
Improved Trip
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)
Improved Critical (falchion, scimitar, etc.)
Mounted Combat
Iron Will
Leadership
Stand Still
Spirited Charge
Shock Trooper
Elusive Target
Combat Brute
Ranged Weapon Mastery
Shadow Blade
Stormguard Warrior
Martial Study
Martial Stance
Dragonborn
Blood Spiked Charger
Improved Grapple
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Sunder
Combat Brute
Combat Reflexes
Improved Trip
Knockdown
Stand-Still

Wizard:

Empower Spell
Quicken Spell
Spell Focus (conjuration, transmutation, and necromancy)
Spell Penetration
Improved Initiative
Arcane Thesis
Easy Metamagic
Practical Metamagic
Persistant spell

Is there something else? How fighter defend himself from magic?

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Shiva: it depends on what you want to do.
Asking if fighter is better than wizard is a very... delicate, and... *very* subjective question. Everyone is going to have their own answer and predilections for DnD. I personally LOVE melee combat. Getting in the face of my opponent, and making them regret fighting me.

If you want to smack people around with a massive chunk of metal on a stick, then you want to play a Fighter.

If you want to rain down fire and brimstone, and draw the ire of the DM, then play a Wizard.

If you want to do both, then play a Duskblade. :smallwink:

--------------

For the Defending question; it's really, really hard to do in Core DND. :smallfurious: You need to step outside of the wizard love-fest of Core DND and get into some other 3rd party published books. Mongoose Publishing has some amazingly balanced and awesome books that can really help to balance the game table when it comes to DnD. As does the Oathbound series, in addition to Green Ronin publishing books.

[monty]

If you want to smack people around with a massive chunk of metal on a stick, then you want to play a Fighter.

Or shapechange.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Or shapechange.

Meh. Has a duration, and can be dispelled. Mobile Anti-magic field FTW.

[Shiva]

I will play fighter and wizard but I wanted to hear what people think about them and what is the best of them? Also I wanted to learn two things at the same time, how tough is wizard to kill and how tough is fighter. If they two meet who would win, ect., what are best feats for them, ect.

Maybe better question would be what is your favorite class, PrC, feats, weapons, armor and magic items, then I would learn the most.

[Draz74]

What 7 feats should 18th level wizard take?

Well, this is a strange question because you still haven't told us what you want to do with Prestige Classes (PrCs); and if you don't want to go into PrCs, a Level 18 Wizard will have 11 feats, not 7 (even if he's not human).

So what you want is a powerful-but-not-broken, no-PrC, non-human, no-particular-stylistic-gimmick wizard build, using Core/PHBII/completes/FR?

... I'll leave it up to people who own more of the Complete series than me. :smallsigh:

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

I will play fighter and wizard but I wanted to hear what people think about them and what is the best of them? Also I wanted to learn two things at the same time, how tough is wizard to kill and how tough is fighter. If they two meet who would win, ect., what are best feats for them, ect.

Maybe better question would be what is your favorite class, PrC, feats, weapons, armor and magic items, then I would learn the most.

Well, what materials do you have available? A large percentage of the stuff that I like (classes, PrC's, magic items) are not in core DND.

[Shiva]

I have about 100 books, and I can find anything, my problem is that I will read them for months/and some of them forever.

Draz74 - I want to know what is the best, cause I don't want to play something that is lousy. Or spend feats in vain. 7 is nice number, you can summarize the very best.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Well, if you want to kick someone, then play Monk :smallwink:

It seems like you want to get into the fray and mix it up.

Wizards are typically a problem solver and stay fray adjacent. </buffy>.

I would encourage you to play Fighter at this point. :smallbiggrin:

[Draz74]

Well, what materials do you have available? A large percentage of the stuff that I like (classes, PrC's, magic items) are not in core DND.

He already answered:


Books: Core, the complete series(no psion), PHB/DMG2, the Forgotten Realm books, and Heroes of Battle

[monty]

Well, if you want to kick someone and miss, then play Monk :smallwink:

Fixed it for you.

[Shiva]

But how to defend when wizard cast Power Word Kill on you?

As for monk, I just like japan samurai and b/w movies, china cinema is to lame for my taste except hong-kong cat III.

[monty]

But how to defend when wizard cast Power Word Kill on you?

Have more than 100 hit points. Or lots of spell resistance.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

He already answered:

Oblivious poster Quirinus is Oblivious.

[Shiva]

Have more than 100 hit points. Or lots of spell resistance.

Which I get how? What feats, items?

OK, to end this tell me 1 character warrior of 18 level, it can be any race, class, PrC from books that is mentioned! And this character have to be the best one, the one that you consider as best! This way I will learn the most!

Thanks

[Draz74]

I have about 100 books, and I can find anything, my problem is that I will read them for months/and some of them forever.

Draz74 - I want to know what is the best, cause I don't want to play something that is lousy. Or spend feats in vain. 7 is nice number, you can summarize the very best.

Well, besides not having time, I'm morally opposed to helping you build a truly optimized wizard. With Incantrix levels and so on.

But I guess I could point you toward Emperor Tippy's "Cindy" build. My Google-fu isn't strong enough to track down the build, at least now that TheTangledWeb is down; but maybe he'd show you the build if you ask him.

Making an uber wizard is more about choosing spells than choosing feats, though.

Can I have your books that you'll never get around to reading? :smallwink:


Which I get how? What feats, items?

For hit points, Toughness is terrible, Improved Toughness is still pretty lame. Items are your answer, and the best HP-boosting items are simply the Constitution-boosting items (in Core, improved in Magic Item Compendium).

For spell resistance, there is no nice feat; items that grant it are terribly overpriced. Your best bet is for the local Cleric or Psion to cast Spell Resistance or Power Resistance on you.

Fighters -- especially without casters to buff them -- really don't have any good defenses against spells. That's ... exactly the problem that makes people say they're weaker.

Steadfast Determination (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Steadfast_Determination,PH2) is worth a look, though.


OK, to end this tell me 1 character warrior of 18 level, it can be any race, class, PrC from books that is mentioned! And this character have to be the best one, the one that you consider as best! This way I will learn the most!\

... yeah, Cindy is really the optimization poster-child of these Forums that you're looking for.

[monty]

Which I get how? What feats, items?

Hit points from class levels and high Con, spell resistance from the spell spell resistance (somewhat ironically) or any of a few different items, classes, or races.


OK, to end this tell me 1 character warrior of 18 level, it can be any race, class, PrC from books that is mentioned! And this character have to be the best one, the one that you consider as best!

Thanks

Kobold Paladin 1 / Anything 17.:smalltongue:

[Shiva]

I'm morally opposed to helping you build a truly optimized wizard.

Why is that?

[Draz74]

Kobold Paladin 1 / Anything 17.:smalltongue:

Explanation: Pun-Pun (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801).

Geez, people, he obviously isn't a regular D&D forum addict. He's not going to get inside jokes like this.


Why is that?

Because the Incantrix PrC (among others) is sick and wrong in how well it breaks the game, and should never have been printed.

[monty]

Why is that?

Because they are horribly broken and will make the game not fun.

[olentu]

Power word kill is Mind-Affecting so mind blank received from a friendly spell caster should stop it. It also has the death descriptor so I think death ward would also work.

[Whiplord]

I have to admit I never truly saw why the Incantatrix was so broken.

[monty]

I have to admit I never truly saw why the Incantatrix was so broken.

See "Cindy."

[Innis Cabal]

Which I get how? What feats, items?

OK, to end this tell me 1 character warrior of 18 level, it can be any race, class, PrC from books that is mentioned! And this character have to be the best one, the one that you consider as best! This way I will learn the most!

Thanks

If you have less then 100 HP as a fighter at level 18 you need to go back and check what you did wrong.

Discounting rolls and the like, you should have at the very least a 20 Con, which is a +5 to every health roll. Regardless of rolls, thats a +90 HP.

[Shiva]

Explanation: Pun-Pun (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801).

I'm sorry that I asked.:smallbiggrin:
And I see that there are a lot of similar questions everywhere.

If you have less then 100 HP as a fighter at level 18 you need to go back and check what you did wrong.

Discounting rolls and the like, you should have at the very least a 20 Con, which is a +5 to every health roll. Regardless of rolls, thats a +90 HP.

So there is no way a fighter (18) should be killed in min. 2-3 wizard attacks?

And one more question what is generally the best race for fighter?

[Whiplord]

See "Cindy."

You're going to have to link me I think. I can't turn it up.

[monty]

So there is no way a fighter (18) should be killed in min. 2-3 wizard attacks?

Not necessarily; the wizard still has plenty of other ways to kill you. You're just safe from PW: Kill.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

I have to admit I never truly saw why the Incantatrix was so broken.

Reduces cost of metamagics = win
can input free metamagic onto other spells being cast by other casters (3.0 version?)
A Full caster progression PrC.
Ridiculously low entry prereq's (Iron Will and a MM feat?).

It's possibly the best caster PrC there ever was; it can also be horribly borkeded with that feat that reduces metamagic cost stacked on top.

[ericgrau]

.... oooookay... Sure Pie Guy. :smallconfused:

now for an actual answer to the question :smallsmile:

Fighter.

1: Weapon Focus: (favorite weapon). Easy, simple, and hey, +1 to hit for a gateway feat is not all bad

2: Weapon Spec (Favorite Weapon). again, easy, simple, and +2 damage is never bad. The optimizers out there say that it is a waste of a feat, I rightfully disagree...

3: Melee Weapon Mastery (Favorite damage type). Adds additional hit and damage to all kinds of weapons that are the same type of your above choices.

4: Improved Bull Rush: smackage personified. Especially funny when paired with the above, Shock Trooper, and the Dungeonscape Fighter variant.

5: Power Attack: Needed for IBR.

6: Elusive Target: nothing like avoiding power attack damage from your power attacking foes. Also funny ability of ye get flankage by at least one rogue.

7: Martial Study: Iron Heart Surge. ToB is a must have book for all melee based campaigns.

-----

Wizard stuff:

Who cares. :smallyuk:

This. Glad a good answer came in early. Not that there won't be other good answers, but I've seen some bad ones too.

For a core-only fighter, the best 7 are:
1. Weapon focus.
2. Weapon specialization.
3. Improved weapon focus.
4. Improved weapon specialization. There is a reason only the fighter can get these 4.
5. Dodge (dons cloak of flame resistance).
6. Improved Critical.
7. Improved Initiative.

These all give you a flat bonus all the time or almost all the time.

Other feats are situational. This includes the famed power attack. I made a table and found that, after you subtract damage lost to misses, two-handed power attack nets at most +3 damage. Maybe +4 in rare situations, but then your target is bordering on helpless at which point PA damage becomes almost unlimited (and perhaps unnecessary). Usually PA nets +1 damage or causes you to lose damage. And it's usually only good for single attacks and at early levels. Compare that to the flat +2 from weapon specialization. PA might be better under the right circumstances, but not always; it's situational. The save and skill bonus feats didn't make the grade because while, for example, a will save bonus might be good in theory, a mere +2 isn't enough to be worth a feat. Unless every incoming attack provokes a will save, but again that's situational.

So in short, if you don't know what's coming, the 7 feats listed above are the best general purpose feats (in core, anyway). Almost all the other feats are better than these if you're in a campaign where nearly every single fight gives you a good opportunity to use them, but otherwise going general-purpose is better. For example, tripping is often good if you always face humanoids. So read up on the feats, look at your campaign and figure it out. And if you have a splatbook or splatbooks, all that goes out the window and you just gotta get a charops guy to give you a game-breaking combo :smalltongue:.

As for fighter 18 vs. wizard 18, it's apples and oranges IMO. A party would do well to have both or two reasonable substitutes. But most people favor wizard 18 over fighter 18. Just one tip: If you play a fighter you will be bored unless you read up on the feats (like I said) and special attacks. It's not as obvious as it is for the wizard, who has all his neat stuff all together in the spell list chapter.

[monty]

5. Dodge

:smallconfused:

[Eldariel]

Incantatrix can, among others, apply metamagic to effects in existence already with a simple Spellcraft-check. So you can apply Persistent Spell to something like 3+Int spells per day. And your Int is big. So that's maybe 15-16 persistent spells each day.

You also get an universal reducement to all your metamagic costs. That's insane on any meter. Basically, you can apply a bunch of metamagic on anything for negligible cost and blow the world up. Combine that with Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic, Easy Metamagic and tons of 0-cost and cheap metamagic and you effectively get "Cindy" (I find that a highly inappropriate name though - Cindy sort of refers to burning things while "she" can hurl anything from negative energy to force with the same efficiency).

Oh yeah, and Incantatrix also gets free bonus metamagic feats; 4 of them. Entering Incantatrix costs you 1 feat that you can get for free from Otyugh Hole (magical location that grants, among others, Iron Will as a possible bonus feat to choose if you survive a week there); the metamagic you'd have anyways. And you get more bonuses than equivalent Wizard-levels.

Thought that was all? Yes, that would already be the most broken Wizard PrC in existence...but there's more! Incantatrix can apply free metamagic to spells she casts (this without Spellcraft-checks, although only once/twice per day). She can also apply metamagic effects she knows to spells cast by allies for free. And hmm, she can also apply metamagic to Wands for free. And she can steal longtime spell effects from opponents with simple spellcraft checks (for example, Summons).

Hmm, and of course all the entry skills are ones you'd have taken anyways (no Wizard should be without Con/Spellcraft/Knowledge (Arcana)) and Incantatrix has full casting progression (although seriously, the class is so insane that even if it had ½ casting progression, the class would still be playable even in optimized games). Oh, and you can enter on level 6.


In a nutshell, that's why Incantatrix is broken. Combine with Shadowcraft Mage [Races of Stone] for real hilarity (such as Miracle cast from level 0 slot). This gets you the archetypal "Killer Gnome" ('cause Shadowcraft Mage is Gnome-specific).


The last great Wizard PrC I'll mention here is Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. It seems pretty innocous, but the fact that multiples of the Veils block Line of Effect means that you cannot use Anti-Magic Field against one. Of course, a properly prepared Wizard will just be swept away by Contingency (or raise Force barrier or just have some Sphere that blocks LoE on, or is simply too big to be fit into an AMF) when there's an AMF nearby, but still, for people who don't bother preparing (why are you playing Wizard then though? Wizard is all about preparing for everything and using Divinations to figure out what to prepare for), Initiate offers an easy way out.

[Mushroom Ninja]

And mostly everything else.

Well, ClericZilla is close to wizard powers.

[ericgrau]

:smallconfused:

LOL knew it! I have my cloak of flame resistance on! I'm safe!

+1 AC to you is -1 AB to your opponent. And 1 AB is usually worth as much as +2 damage, sometimes more, sometimes less (see comments on power attack). But it's defense not offense, so you can't quite use it 100% of the time (what if you're hit with a spell? Flanked?). So I put it after the fighter tree (offense) and before the feats that give a more minor bonus. My list was limited to core, btw, so there's not really anything else left that gives a flat bonus almost all the time.

[Draz74]

I made a table and found that, after you subtract damage lost to misses, two-handed power attack nets at most +3 damage. Maybe +4 in rare situations, but then your target is bordering on helpless at which point PA damage becomes almost unlimited (and perhaps unnecessary). Usually PA nets +1 damage or causes you to lose damage. And it's usually only good for single attacks and at early levels. Compare that to the flat +2 from weapon specialization. PA might be better under the right circumstances, but not always; it's situational. The save and skill bonus feats didn't make the grade because while, for example, a will save bonus might be good in theory, a mere +2 isn't enough to be worth a feat. Unless every incoming attack provokes a will save, but again that's situational.

Huh, interesting. I'm taking this wonderfully under-used shortcut, the Dire Press Power Attack Calculator (http://direpress.bin.sh/tools/power.html), and looking at the amount of damage gained by an optimally-chosen Power Attack.

It's lower than I expected.

Power Attack is, indeed, only better than Weapon Specialization against low-AC monsters. For full attacks. Or against medium-AC monsters, for single attacks, and even then you're getting like +2.2 damage instead of +2.

And all that is only if you're using a two-handed weapon.

Still, you at least have to consider the utility value of being able to chop through DR or hardness, especially since objects typically have a very low AC.

As far as your other claims go ... meh, I still say it's a tough call. Iron Will may not come into play very often, but when it does, there's a lot more than 30 damage at stake. Party fighter dominated by a vampire = almost as bad as the vampire killing two party members instantly.

And surely Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip are better than Dodge?

[The Minx]

Here's a link to a PDF with some of these feats, for reference.

Link (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf)

For the Wizard:
Quicken Spell
Empower Spell
Widen Spell
Spell Focus
Spell Penetration
Easy Metamagic (chosen metamagic feat costs 1 level less)
Arcane Thesis (chosen spell gains +2 to caster level, metamagic costs 1 level less for that spell)
Instant Metamagic (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-rules/44547-instant-metamagic-question.html) (1/day, incantatrix may use metamagic w/o prep or level increase)


EDIT: oops, that's 8 feats. Sorry. ^^

Then there is the Improved Metamagic feat, though that's an Epic feat, and you probably don't get to use it.

Sculpt Spell is also pretty nice if your friends tend to get stuck in a lot and you want to avoid hitting them.
Transdimensional spell if you face a lot of spooks.
Repeat spell is nice for blaster mages, though that's properly the Sorcerer's role.

[Eldariel]

For a core-only fighter, the best 7 are:
1. Weapon focus.
2. Weapon specialization.
3. Improved weapon focus.
4. Improved weapon specialization. There is a reason only the fighter can get these 4.
5. Dodge (dons cloak of flame resistance).
6. Improved Critical.
7. Improved Initiative.

Fact is that with those feats, you won't be able to stand up to level-appropriate encounters. Not to mention, you'll fail every Will-save you have to roll. Flat bonuses just aren't good enough to hold up - an action spent on casting a spell does so much more than an attack that takes maybe 1/5th of opponent's HP. The reason Power Attack is so liked is because boosting your attack is seriously easy, but boosting damage not so. With one feat, you gain the ability to turn all the attack roll boosts into damage boosts.

Admittedly, Power Attack is worse in Core where you lack access to Shock Trooper, but it's worth remembering that things on higher levels have crappy ACs - around level 20, you can't expect to run into ACs of much above 40 and with 20 BAB, +5 weapon (through Greater Magic Weapon), +10 Str, +Luck+Morale+Str modifiers, you'll easily be attacking with a base of ~+40. The tables often done for these forget to account for the fact that damage isn't linear - it's an "on-off". If you exceed the threshold, you deal a certain number of damage and if you don't exceed it, you don't deal that number of damage. Most of the formulae people try accidentially present the issue as if your damage increased by exceeding the AC with "large number", which simply isn't true.


Also, pick Trip once. Seriously. Try it before you fail to name it in Top 7 core feats. Against any opponent you can Trip (generally Huge and smallers courtesy of the Enlarge Person), just winning that one Trip-check means they don't threaten the characters that truly matter, and that you get to Power Attack for lots as they just took -4 to their AC (and you got the free attack as a bonus).

Also, huge HD doesn't help defenders since Trip is BAB indifferent (which tends to always be in PCs' favour as monsters advance HD by CR much faster than PCs advance HD by ECL), and the +4 from Improved Trip negates the size modifier from even Huges, making it a straight Str-check (and each iterative also uses your full Str as long as you hit the Touch, which is just plain awesome), which is very often in the Fighter's favour as most monsters lack magic items, inherent bonuses, spell-based bonuses and so on (and those who don't tend to be Fighter's size or smallers).


Improved Critical is just a spell-effect for a feat. Not worth it, especially with the amount of Critical-immune opponents in the game (Undead, Plants, Elementals, Oozes, Constructs and high-level Humanoids due to Fortification); but even if Criticals applied to all opponents, the feat wouldn't be worth it as you can effectively always get it as a spell anyways and use the feat on something useful instead.

Out of the feats you listed, Improved Initiative is decent (as the bonus is notable), but even it doesn't give you any new options; just gives you a slightly better chance to move fast. Combat Reflexes? Effectively increases the number of attacks you can do per round. Improved Trip? Vastly increases your attack capabilities against the majority of the opponents while also giving you the means to stop your casters from getting into melee/getting Tripped. Power Attack? Allows you to customize your attacks depending on what kind of opponent you're dealing with, and make extra use out of all buff effects on you. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain? Means you can use your one, enchanted weapon in basically all sitiuations and vastly increases the area you can cover when Enlargened. And Leadership is seriously the best feat in the Core - gives you another character and a herd of mooks. Why didn't you list any of those? Seriously, why?


It's fine if you disagree with points, but at least give a concrete reason why you think a Fighter with the feats you posted is really capable of impacting a CR-appropriate challenge on the higher levels. What kind of damage and AC can you post? How do those stack up to level-appropriate encounters? And most importantly, when giving advice to someone else, make sure your advice is sound. What if you tell someone to get all the feats you mentioned, he does and at level 12, notices that his character isn't dealing notably more damage than he was dealing on level 6? If he follows your advice and notices that his options haven't increased at all over the levels? If he follows your attacks and notices that any opposing group with intellect can simply go after the other characters while he's completely incapable of stopping their movement? Why do you want to put someone else into such a position?

[ericgrau]

Fact is that with those feats, you won't be able to stand up to level-appropriate encounters.

With those feats, and extra feats unused, a simple fighter 10 build mops the floor with a CR 10 fire giant. It isn't even hard, even though equal CR 1v1 (not 4v1) encounters are supposed to be "overwhelming". I've tested it. Both via computer simulation and calculating the percentages out by hand.



As far as your other claims go ... meh, I still say it's a tough call. Iron Will may not come into play very often, but when it does, there's a lot more than 30 damage at stake. Party fighter dominated by a vampire = almost as bad as the vampire killing two party members instantly.

And surely Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip are better than Dodge?
As it happens I included saves in my computer sims, and went under the assumption that a failed save was instant-death. I assumed 25% of incoming attacks were magical, and will got the biggest chunk of that IIRC. Thing is, +2 just isn't enough. Even in sims where I bumped magic up to 50%, the sim just said to boost your offense and minimize your physical defenses. The bonuses to saves were still too piddly to be worth it.

Combat reflexes, improved trip: Sure, it's situational, they can be. That's why I specifically noted that. But they better darn well come up frequently or it won't average out to much. Otherwise causing 10% of most opponent's attacks to miss (roll of 10 to roll of 11), almost all the time, is fairly handy. I've also heard of a campaign where every player took skill focus: swim and wore light armor because they were in constant fear of drowning; in that case that's the best choice (that's a much more extreme example of situational, though). There are dozens of good feats like that. For example almost every archer should take rapid shot even before the fighter tree. But only if you do a lot of archery.

Simply put, computer sims and long calcs don't fit in online forums (nor in my schedule), and it's not like I see others back up their claims. And they probably haven't even tested them like I have.

[Leewei]

My take on best Fighter feats:
1. Iron Will (weak Will save mitigated)
2. Lightning Reflexes (weak Reflex save mitigated)
3. Improved Initiative (going first is important for everyone)
4. Power Attack (situational attack into damage)
5. Cleave (an extra potential attack each round is great)
6. Combat Expertise (up to 5 AC at the expense of BAB; Int requirement admittedly sucks)
7. Blind Fighting (concealment effects happen often)

[monty]

My take on best Fighter feats:
1. Iron Will (weak Will save mitigated)
2. Lightning Reflexes (weak Reflex save mitigated)
3. Improved Initiative (going first is important for everyone)
4. Power Attack (situational attack into damage)
5. Cleave (an extra potential attack each round is great)
6. Combat Expertise (up to 5 AC at the expense of BAB; Int requirement admittedly sucks)
7. Blind Fighting (concealment effects happen often)

I'd say no to Combat Expertise, unless you're taking it as a prerequisite. Unless you're seriously optimizing AC, the things you need to worry about hitting you will be hitting you anyway, or they won't be targeting AC.

[Eldariel]

With those feats, and extra feats wasted, a simple fighter 10 build mops the floor with a CR 10 fire giant. It isn't even hard, even though equal CR 1v1 (not 4v1) encounters are supposed to be "overwhelming". I've tested it. Both via computer simulation and calculating the percentages out by hand.

Fire Giant is also an encounter where it's optimal to Power Attack for ~5, since having AB of +23 is easy on those levels (say, 10 BAB+7 Str+3 Greater Magic Weapon (Cleric using Prayer Beads casts buffs in the morning at CL 14)+1 Bless+1 Prayer+1 Haste). At that point, Power Attacking for 3 or 4 increases your total damage output by 8 according to the Power Attack Calculator (assumption: +1 Holy Spiked Chain with +3 Greater Magic Weapon (on it - if it isn't Holy, you obviously gain more mileage out of PA), 24 Str (18+2 levels+4 item), and the mentioned spell-effects/Boots of Speed).

The Trip-check would admittedly be harder on vs. the Fire Giant; with just Enlarge Person, you're running at only +1 advantage (with Quick Draw, you could still do the Trip and go about your business, but without it, it's probably easier to just beat the Giant up). Fire Giant is squishy enough to just plain kill though; a buffed Fighter kills it in two turns on average. So Fire Giant is more of a case of the CR table being effed up than the Fighter being über (with +4 Reflex and +9 Will, it's extremely vulnerable to spells too).

[ericgrau]

I'd say no to Combat Expertise, unless you're taking it as a prerequisite. Unless you're seriously optimizing AC, the things you need to worry about hitting you will be hitting you anyway, or they won't be targeting AC.

In physical duel situations or other situations involving physical attacks where you might actually die, my sims showed combat expertise to be extremely powerful. That assumes your AB+AC is higher than your opponent's, though. It basically magnifies the difference b/c AC becomes better and better as you get more while AB becomes less and less helpful when you have a lot. Compare hitting 85% of the time to 90%, versus getting hit 15% of the time versus 10%. But there are tons of other good situational feats and I didn't want to get into so much detail. Again, it all depends.

Eldariel: Power attack did not increase my damage; again due to misses. I checked. Combat expertise would have helped tremendously though. Weapon damage enchantments do slightly more damage than enhancement + PA, but at that level the optimized build still uses a masterwork weapon anyway. It was better to boost AC, strength and con instead. That weapon you describe is way too expensive. And if he had a party member to buff him or his weapon before combat, I'm sure he would have done even better.

[monty]

In physical duel situations or other situations involving physical attacks where you might actually die, my sims showed combat expertise to be extremely powerful. That assumes your AB+AC is higher than your opponent's, though. It basically magnifies the difference b/c AC becomes better and better as you get more while AB becomes less and less helpful when you have a lot. Compare hitting 85% of the time to 90%, versus getting hit 15% of the time versus 10%. But there are tons of other good situational feats and I didn't want to get into too many situational ones. Again, it all depends.

That's quite a big assumption, though. Like I said, the things you need to be worried about hitting you are probably going to hit anyway, unless you're heavily optimizing AC (in which case, your damage output will likely suck).

[ericgrau]

That's quite a big assumption, though. Like I said, the things you need to be worried about hitting you are probably going to hit anyway, unless you're heavily optimizing AC (in which case, your damage output will likely suck).

No assumption, it's a careful computer simulation dude. Tried all possible combinations of gear even. I also calculated the fire giant case out by hand because someone wanted to see it. Thing is, AC is cheap, weapons are not. He still had good damage while getting a very high AC. Pumped strength a lot instead of his weapon (stats, every 4 levels, +2 item; maybe +4 I forget). And like I said, threads are full of people making assumptions. People just don't care until they disagree with them.

[Eldariel]

Statistically Power Attack increases your damage tremendously in that scenario (even more if just using an Mw. Chain). Of course, the more you get buffed, the more it increases your damage. In the scenario I gave you, an unenchanted Chain (again, Greater Magic Weapon makes it a +3) sees your damage go up by 12 points if you PA for 5 according to this (http://direpress.bin.sh/tools/power.html) (numbers inserted: BAB 10, extra AB +13 (+7 Str, +3 Magic Weapon and the 3 spells), extra attacks 1, weapon damage 2d4+13 (two-handed Str = +10, and +3 weapon), 20/2 Critical, Two-Handed Weapon, AC 23).

Will-saves are the main reason you either need Mindblank (high-level solution) or more commonly, multiclass for Will-saves and if Core-only, get Iron Will in addition to multiclassing (outside Core, Resolute does this the best).

Weapon enchantments mostly come from casters anyways, it's wasteful to waste money on something you can get for free.

[ericgrau]

Nope, calculate it out like I did. Or like someone did on a PA calculator a few posts back. Do % chance of hit times damage. Both single attacks and full. It was a very minor boost or I lost damage, I forget. I gotta get going, latez.

[Eldariel]

I linked the calculator in my post. According to that very calculator, it's 12 points of damage increase. I even gave you the data I entered.

[ericgrau]

That's a lot of buffs. I did a straight up fight, with balanced offense and defense gear not all offense. Working alone. i.e., the optimal build as determined by my simulation by exhaustively trying out every combination. Not a damage-only suicidal focus with tons of pre-combat buffs from others.

EDIT: And a 30 strength at level 10? Just checked wealth by level, you can't even get a +4 strength boost let alone +6. 18+2 (levels)+6+4 (orc!) = 30.

Geeze man, I'm done. I don't put up with people who tell others to back things up to the extreme when no one does that, himself included. I gotta go home, tiring someone out with many words do not a genuine success give you.

[Eldariel]

Why assume you don't have a party when you...y'know, have one? Greater Magic Weapon is a practically daily spell, and level 3 so your casters can spare it. Bless is level 1 and Prayer is level 3, so casters can spare both of them. Haste is a standard combat buff, and Boots of Speed replicate them for when casters don't have the action.

Sure, you could solo the Giant, but that's not a relevant sitiuation since it'll never happen; D&D isn't a solo game (by the way, without buffs the optimal PA is for 3, and only gives you slightly over 2 points of extra damage). Note that if a caster just cast Grease on the Giant and it failed its save (more than likely - DC for a level 1 spell is around 19 at that point and it has a +4 Reflex-save), a non-combat buffed Fighter would generate 8 extra damage with PA for 5. Bottomline, even without any buffs or spells whatsoever (other than Greater Magic Weapon), you still get more damage from PA than Weapon Specialization. Without any magic and only a Mw. Chain, the bonus is slightly under 2 points of damage on a full attack with PA -3 (on a Charge, it's +3 on PA -5).

And the character's only damage-boosting equipment is Belt of Str +4 (roughly a third of his WPL, assuming the party doesn't have a Crafter, which - let's face it - a core-only party should always have). The rest comes from his core stats and the magic. You can easily afford any amount of defensive buffs you'd want (not that I'd advocate getting any, but the option is there).


EDIT: Str is 24 (18 + 2 + 4 item - +4 Belt is 16000 and a bit under third of the WPL). +10 to damage comes from Two-Handed (+7 + 7/2 = 10.5, rounded to 10).

[Leewei]

I'd say no to Combat Expertise, unless you're taking it as a prerequisite. Unless you're seriously optimizing AC, the things you need to worry about hitting you will be hitting you anyway, or they won't be targeting AC.

I think this needs to be compared to the Fighting Defensively and Full Defense combat actions to determine how useful it really is.

Fighting Defensively (with an Attack or Full Attack) grants a +2 Dodge bonus to AC at the expense of -4 to attack. 5 or more ranks of Tumbling increases the benefit to +3. This is near-equal to losing +3 BAB for +3 AC.

Full Defense (a Full Round Action) grants a +4 Dodge bonus to AC; +6 with Tumbling synergy. This is superior defensively to losing +5 BAB for +5 AC, however the character loses an entire round of attacks and does not threaten opponents.

I'd have to say that monty drew the right conclusion about dropping this off the top 7 list. The feat is intended to increase defensive capability of a character, but isn't much better than the default actions available to a skilled tumbler without the feat. The benefit lies mainly in the fact that a character with this feat fights better (and threatens) when defending.

I disagree with monty regarding AC, by the way. If these defensive options didn't exist, Combat Expertise would be an astoundingly good feat (+5 Dodge AC as needed is simply wonderful, even at the expense of attack bonus).

I still like this feat as a gateway to Improved Trip, mind you. :)

[Starbuck_II]

See "Cindy."

Please show Cindy's linkage. I saw it once, but been a while.

[Deepblue706]

A Core Fighter Feat List.

Hum. This varies GREATLY depending on level and point-buy value. Since most people around here seem to like very-high point-buy games (32+), I'm going to suggest what is best for that kind of play.

1. Power Attack
2. Improved Trip
3. Improved Sunder
4. Improved Bull Rush
5. Improved Grapple
6. Blind-Fight
7. Spirited Charge

When playing with "challenging" point-buy values (~22), feats like Weapon Focus become more useful. Still, Fighters are only good when they diversify their tactical abilities; not specialize to specific weaponry.

[Gerion]

Is there something else? How fighter defend himself from magic?

thats why most people say mages are better ;)
Kill the mage first and cloak of resitance.

If a mage has enough time for preparations he will mob the floor with the figther. If he doesn't see you coming hit him hard an make sure first attack kills

for the feats
In FR there are some realy good home region feats.
Spellcasting prodigy: Your casting atribute is considered two points higher for bonus spells and saves.....
Mind over Body at first level get int modifier on hp instead of con and +1 hp every time you take a meta magic feat

If you have Lost Empires of Faerun check out the Mage lord i love that Prestige class
also in this book are one or two good mage feats.

[Mephit]

Spellcasting prodigy: Your casting atribute is considered two points higher for bonus spells and saves.....


For the Record: The DC bonus was errata'd out, so the feat isn't worth much nowadays.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Also, pick Trip once. Seriously. Try it before you fail to name it in Top 7 core feats. Against any opponent you can Trip (generally Huge and smallers courtesy of the Enlarge Person), just winning that one Trip-check means they don't threaten the characters that truly matter, and that you get to Power Attack for lots as they just took -4 to their AC (and you got the free attack as a bonus).

Also, huge HD doesn't help defenders since Trip is BAB indifferent (which tends to always be in PCs' favour as monsters advance HD by CR much faster than PCs advance HD by ECL), and the +4 from Improved Trip negates the size modifier from even Huges, making it a straight Str-check (and each iterative also uses your full Str as long as you hit the Touch, which is just plain awesome), which is very often in the Fighter's favour as most monsters lack magic items, inherent bonuses, spell-based bonuses and so on (and those who don't tend to be Fighter's size or smallers).

I will agree with adding Combat Expertise, Imp. Trip and Knock-down string. I started playing a tripping/skillmonkey in our Pathfinder game (you'd have to see the build), and I have to say, it has been a blessing. Plus having the wizard cast Enlarge Person on me has helped! Being able to successfully trip a BBEG or just a EG, or even the spellcaster I (yes, I) fought has really helped us to stay alive. 2 of the best things you can do to beat the spellcaster is to trip or grapple them. Both are CORE and can be had by monks. (BTW; they fixed the monk in Pathfinder!).

People also need to keep in mind that DnD is a cooperative game. The Wizard with the proper array of spells can 'Win' DnD, which is honestly not that fun. It gets 'really' annoying for those of us that enjoy melee combat and tactics. In all of my games, the primary spellcaster not only has a couple of the 'batman' spells, but also some direct damage and buffs. Yes, direct damage. They are also some sort of a gish, where they can mix it up in melee without being a glass cannon. Spellcasters in my game are not squishy.

Take my last spellcaster, Aezetyr ('Zee for shourt) for example. She is a Sorcerer 7/Stormcaster 10 / Fey 2 / Incantitrix (Epic levels). Her favorite spell is Thunderlance (see Spell Compendium). It is a 4th level [Conj.] Force effect. Not a ton of damage, only 3d6. But, it hits everything. She also has Arcane Strike, where she can pump 9th level spell power into the weapon. She also uses her ridiculous CHA modifier on attacks and damage. Adding on top of that, our party Bard is using Inspire Courage, some feats, and spells to give everyone an additional 6 or 8 to attack and damage. Aezetyr is also a Fey, so she does have natural flight.

Even with the above referenced insanity, DnD stayed a cooperative game. She would use her other spells to control combat, buff her allies, and also get into a flank or help take down the BBEG with melee instead of spells. In the realm of being subjective, I am personally not happy if I am playing a pure spellcaster. To me it would get boring. "Oh, I can't do anything because I don't have that spell". Arrgh. 'Zee was built to do just about everything. Melee, spellcasting, control, etc. But, she does not dominate the gameplay. None of the characters do. We are working together to save Faerun (well, that is after the monk failed to save it).


----------------
Now playing: Within Temptation - Pale (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/within+temptation/track/pale)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[Starbuck_II]

People also need to keep in mind that DnD is a cooperative game. The Wizard with the proper array of spells can 'Win' DnD, which is honestly not that fun. It gets 'really' annoying for those of us that enjoy melee combat and tactics. In all of my games, the primary spellcaster not only has a couple of the 'batman' spells, but also some direct damage and buffs. Yes, direct damage. They are also some sort of a gish, where they can mix it up in melee without being a glass cannon. Spellcasters in my game are not squishy.


Actually, you may not understand the Wizard.
After the Wizard wins: he will need the other to clean up the rest. He needs to do his nails or something.

Example, at low levels stuff like Color Spray, Glitterdust, Sleep: afte he hits enemy with it ands they are useless, he relaxes as the rest of party stabs the enemy to death while they are effectively helpless.

So he needs the others because everyone needs a maid. Plus, he looks more awesome around them than if he was alone.

[Deepblue706]

Actually, you may not understand the Wizard.
After the Wizard wins: he will need the other to clean up the rest. He needs to do his nails or something.

Example, at low levels stuff like Color Spray, Glitterdust, Sleep: afte he hits enemy with it ands they are useless, he relaxes as the rest of party stabs the enemy to death while they are effectively helpless.

So he needs the others because everyone needs a maid. Plus, he looks more awesome around them than if he was alone.

Those spells are capable of failing, you know.

Color Spray is good, but you have to be on-top of your enemy. There's a chance you're gonna get hit. It becomes a very good chance if your enemies aren't being played like idiots and actually make use of ranged weaponry. Plus, the larger the crowd, the greater the chances that your spell won't end the encounter.

Sleep takes a full round to cast. Not a full-round action; a full round. A lot can happen in a round. You have to avoid detection to be safe at the start of the spell, and then have your friends block your enemy's path to you to actually get it off.

Glitterdust is a round/level spell. Later on, it's got a fairly decent duration. But, when you first get it, the spell really doesn't end encounters - it just gives you time to gain a tactical advantage. And, it's just a 10ft radius spread.

And the low-level wizard really can't cast many spells each day. They're always a great addition to a party, but you're really overstating their abilities. It's not until later that a Wizard steals the show.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Those spells are capable of failing, you know.

Color Spray is good, but you have to be on-top of your enemy. There's a chance you're gonna get hit. It becomes a very good chance if your enemies aren't being played like idiots and actually make use of ranged weaponry. Plus, the larger the crowd, the greater the chances that your spell won't end the encounter.

Sleep takes a full round to cast. Not a full-round action; a full round. A lot can happen in a round. You have to avoid detection to be safe at the start of the spell, and then have your friends block your enemy's path to you to actually get it off.

Glitterdust is a round/level spell. Later on, it's got a fairly decent duration. But, when you first get it, the spell really doesn't end encounters - it just gives you time to gain a tactical advantage. And, it's just a 10ft radius spread.

And the low-level wizard really can't cast many spells each day. They're always a great addition to a party, but you're really overstating their abilities. It's not until later that a Wizard steals the show.


Agreed with everything.

Color spray loses it's effectiveness rather quickly. Plus, it lights up the Wizzie's location like a big red sign (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0024.html).

Glitterdust can hurt your party as much as it can help.

Sleep loses it's effectiveness after 3 or 4 levels of spellcasting progression.

Plus with certain campaigns, creatures are going to be immune to all of these effects. There is always going to be a situation where what the Wizard has prepared is not going to work. Just like there is going to be sitations where the rogue is denied sneak attack, and there are situations where the druid can't wild shape into a bear. The 'heart' of DnD is what the group does to work together to solve the situation.

Again, it all depends on how the game is being played. I prefer to have a cooperative game, not one dominated by a Wizard, or any one class/character. It just gets so boring/irritating/annoying/frustrating having one character ruling the gameplay. That is when having a good DM comes in. A Good DM is going to see that there is a game domination happening, and she/he is going to change / adjust and manipulate the circumstances of the game to make it more fun for the rest of the party. I seem to remember a certain Fiendish Tick from the Fiend Folio. :smallbiggrin: . The games that I play and put together, there is no 'leave and come back tomorrow'. You use what you came in with =D

Best creature(s) to put against a Wizard is a properly-played Beholder. Central Antimagic Eye? Oh yeah, that's going to open. So what it can't use it's eye stalks. It can bite the head off of just about anything :smallsmile:


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Now playing: The Gathering - Saturnine (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/the+gathering/track/saturnine)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[Aquillion]

See "Cindy."
Cindy exploits Arcane Thesis more than Incantrix (although both are exploited, of course). Arcane Thesis applies only to one spell, but it can reduce the metamagic costs of individual metamagic effects below 0 as long as the end result doesn't drop the spell below its original level -- this can make for really absurd Orb spells, in Cindy's case.

Also, a lot of people have posted about how "You should never play an optimized wizard, it will ruin everyone else's fun!" or "If you play XYZ, you will be underpowered and have no fun!"

It doesn't work like that. Before you make a build, you should talk to the rest of your group and find out what power level they're playing at. If they're playing at a low-level game using mostly straight core non-casting classes, and you bring Cindy, you will overshadow (and likely annoy) everyone.

Whereas if you're playing a game where everyone is a perfectly-optimized death machine, and you bring a Fighter 20, you're going to suck no matter how carefully you choose your feats, and will likely get splattered all over the wall (or be rendered completely ineffective) by the buffed monsters that the DM sends to threaten everyone else.

Figure out what sort of game your party is playing before you choose your build, or even your class. Try to make something in line with that.

And re: Fighters vs. Wizards. At low levels the difference isn't as extreme (most people put the 'sweet spot' for class balance at around level 6), but high-level wizards can transport themselves to the other side of the world with a standard action, end the entire fight with one die roll (or without a die roll, often), summon and control creatures twice their HD for a small amount of XP, access the abilities of the vast majority of monsters ever printed, and many other even more broken things.

The usual way of putting it: Fighters increase in power, for the most part, in a linear way -- you add more attacks, more damage, sure, but overall you just get better at what you were doing before. Wizards increase in power quadratically, because they both get massively better at their low-level spells, and add completely new capabilities far beyond what they had earlier.

[Eldariel]

I disagree that a good GM would alter encounters to face the party. In fact, I find that any kinds of illogical bias in encounters detracts from the game experience. What you can do though is use one of the billion homebrew fixes available to fix up the classes that feel underpowered and perhaps somewhat restricting the overpowered classes.

It's an easy solution, it doesn't break the illusion of a real world (which is, at least for me, a hugely important part of a roleplaying experience as I can take the role much deeper when the world around me feels works in a logical fashion and all our actions have logical effects) and it allows everyone to have their fun. Homebrews tend to fix the glaring balance issues very easily when the most broken stuff isn't used, meaning everyone gets to enjoy without DM making it a "engineered monsters vs. PC"-sitiuation.

It's also good for players to encounter overwhelming odds every once in a while. Teaches them not to try to fight everything, and again, maintains the illusion of a real world; your foes actually exist independent of the PCs and their skill level and relative power isn't tied to those of the PCs. It makes no sense to meet constantly stronger and stronger adversaries unless we're talking about things hired/summoned by a mover.

[The Glyphstone]

Best creature(s) to put against a Wizard is a properly-played Beholder. Central Antimagic Eye? Oh yeah, that's going to open. So what it can't use it's eye stalks. It can bite the head off of just about anything :smallsmile:


You are being sarcastic, right?:smalleek: 2d4 damage/round is nothing. Even to a wizard with average CON, it'll take a while to matter. Beholders are really pathetic melee fighters* - and the poor wizard can just take a single move action around the beholder to get out of the cone and get all his buffs/spells back - he doesn't even need to Tumble, see aforementioned 2d4 bite damage.


Also, isn't Cindy's involvement in Incantatrix not the +1 metamagic reduction so much as all the juicy bonus Metamagic feats it granted to use with Thesis.


*Unless it has levels in Juggernaut while wearing enchanted Sovereign Plate and a set of +5 Razorjaws.:smallbiggrin:

[Aquillion]

I disagree that a good GM would alter encounters to face the party. In fact, I find that any kinds of illogical bias in encounters detracts from the game experience. What you can do though is use one of the billion homebrew fixes available to fix up the classes that feel underpowered and perhaps somewhat restricting the overpowered classes.The game is explicitly based around setting encounters to match the party. That is the whole point of CR. With an over-optimized or really, really badly-optimized party, CR breaks down and DMs have to fudge it, but the basic mechanics remain the same. CR is a tool that can be used in different ways, and it doesn't have to come down to an Oblivion-style world where there are monsters of exactly the appropriate CR for you everywhere you look; but yes, unless they want your campaign to be a complete wipe or an absurd cakewalk, most DMs do make an effort to at least place challenges in their world appropriate to what the PCs can handle.

When your PCs are level 20, you don't spend hours designing a dungeon full of CR 1 dangers; when they're level 1, you don't spend all that time designing a dungeon filled with CR 20 stuff. Extending this to recognizing when your players' party isn't quite in line with what the CR system was designed around and fudging upwards or downwards to fit is just common sense.

You can still put a variety of things in the world, and if the PCs insist on provoking/attacking/getting involved with things above or below their power level, that's their problem. But the fact is, a DM is not a computer simulation and cannot produce a complete universe -- you have to decide what you're going to focus on, what you're going to put in, and have general plans about what sort of options, interesting things, and so forth exist in your world. The things you spend your time preparing should, if you want everyone to have fun, be generally geared towards the effectiveness of your PCs.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

You are being sarcastic, right?:smalleek: 2d4 damage/round is nothing. Even to a wizard with average CON, it'll take a while to matter. Beholders are really pathetic melee fighters* - and the poor wizard can just take a single move action around the beholder to get out of the cone and get all his buffs/spells back - he doesn't even need to Tumble, see aforementioned 2d4 bite damage.

*Unless it has levels in Juggernaut while wearing enchanted Sovereign Plate and a set of +5 Razorjaws.:smallbiggrin:


The game is explicitly based around setting encounters to match the party. That is the whole point of CR. With an over-optimized or really, really badly-optimized party, CR breaks down and DMs have to fudge it, but the basic mechanics remain the same. CR is a tool that can be used in different ways, and it doesn't have to come down to an Oblivion-style world where there are monsters of exactly the appropriate CR for you everywhere you look; but yes, unless they want your campaign to be a complete wipe or an absurd cakewalk, most DMs do make an effort to at least place challenges in their world appropriate to what the PCs can handle.

When your PCs are level 20, you don't spend hours designing a dungeon full of CR 1 dangers; when they're level 1, you don't spend all that time designing a dungeon filled with CR 20 stuff. Extending this to recognizing when your players' party isn't quite in line with what the CR system was designed around and fudging upwards or downwards to fit is just common sense.

You can still put a variety of things in the world, and if the PCs insist on provoking/attacking/getting involved with things above or below their power level, that's their problem. But the fact is, a DM is not a computer simulation and cannot produce a complete universe -- you have to decide what you're going to focus on, what you're going to put in, and have general plans about what sort of options, interesting things, and so forth exist in your world. The things you spend your time preparing should, if you want everyone to have fun, be generally geared towards the effectiveness of your PCs.


You missed the important words: Properly Played. There are some beholderkin that are also spellcasters and/or more competent warriors. He could be buffed to the max. He could have some advancement to Huge size, or some combat oriented templates. Insted of taking Iron Will, he could have taken Improved Natural Attack, or Improved Crit. He could also temporarily turn off the central eye and blast away at anything in his path. All I am trying to say is that there is going to be something out there that the Wizard will not be able to deal with. A beholder is all-too-familiar foe. It is necessary, although not "optimal" (oh boy) to have buff spells and utility stuff prepared.

The Wizard does not have to be the most "powerful" thing out there. It is, in theory. I am only relaying results that I have witnessed. It may happen differently in your games; but that is the fun of DnD. Individuals with their own abilities working together to defeat a common foe or situation.

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It is paramount for a good DM to be able to scale the encounters per the ability and "power quotient" of the PCs. Holding back the PCs themselves (too much) from doing something is too much like telling Iron Man that he can't fly because his foe can't. It would just break the PC. There are some things that a PC class can do that I do not believe a PC class should be able to do*. The CR system was created to balance power of creatures vs. PCs. If your PC power quotient is too high, then throw in some more powerful creatures.

Example: I have a PC named Khepesk. He is a Dragonborn (Heart) Earth Dwarf that had been made into a Mineral creature. His CR is currently 6, and he has 4 levels of Warblade and a level of Monk for roleplay reasons. (5 class levels, +1LA). He completely dominated every aspect of more recent meetings, because the adventure path we are running had CR5 and CR6 PCs facing CR2 and CR3 goblins. Khepesk was built to be a defensive character; not an offensive powerhouse. Heck, he was made to be a spellcaster protector! The caster never even got a chance to throw any spells out there, the other melee PC never got a chance to swing his sword, and the rogue/skillmonkey was just like "doyyy" walking around with a thumb up his arse. The group got bored.

That is a classic case of having an inappropriately powered section of a campaign. I powered up the Goblins and it made for a more interesting game, because there was an actual threat. I could have reduced the "power level" of the PC, but he would lose too much; he would have been a different character. That would not have been fair to the person that was playing him. Now, on the other side of the same coin, he is quite powerful. Perhaps, too powerful. Instead of weakening him, he has briefly left the group and will return later on. He will not be at the same CR and ECL as the rest of the party, actually, he will be 2 levels lower, is my plan. I want to see how he stacks up against creatures that are 2-4 CR higher than him. This was voted on by the party, and the person that is playing him agrees that it was a good solution.

* Examples: Manipulating the time/space continuum. TIme Stop , Celerity , Synchronicity (Psionic power), are just some examples. Only Deities should be able to stop time. Wish, Miracle, Reality Revision can be used, to a point.

[Judging Eagle]

I disagree. What kind of wizard puts points into strength? :smalltongue:

Oh right, a shape changing wizard. Silly me. :smallfrown:

Funny thing, this Wizard would. For use at level 1, so that they can grapple.


Original Poster[/i]]"]So as we all know, Monks suck. In part of my ongoing negative assessment of Monks, I'm going to produce a number of other characters that serve the purpose of a "Monk" without suffering from the painful reckoning of actually having any monk levels. Cause man, that would really suck!

So here it is: A grapple based wizard character. Not what you'd expect from a grapple build, but there you go.

Level 1: You are a human and have a single level of Wizard, and you get to select your feats and specialize and all that. You put your highest rolled stat in Intelligence because you aren't a moron, and your second highest goes into Strength. Rar! You take an Octopus as your familiar (It's Wet Outside), and you select Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved grapple as your feats. You specialize in Transmutation, and take Evocation and Enchantment as barred schools.

Combat: You grapple people! Having Improved Grapple means that you can initiate a grab without provoking an AoO. Assuming that you have a Strength of 14, you'll have a Grapple bonus of +9 at 1st level, which means that you expect to win. You're also going to cast babau slime on yourself, which means that you'll do 1d8 points of acid damage every round you stay in a grapple, which in turn is enough to make you totally lethal. You can take down enemies above your level no problem.

2nd level: Holy shiznit! You got a BAB bonus! Sweet. You now have Grapple onus of +10. But then you can have a spell left over for enlarge person that can jack your grapple bonus up to +16

3rd level: Now things go crazy. You learn fearsome grapple and bladeweave. You get a feat, and it's Aberration Blood. Your Grapple Bonus goes up to +12 and then you cast fearsome grapple, enlarge person, and bladeweave - driving your Grapple bonus up to +22 (comparison: this is better than a Giant Octopus at +15). Further, your victim has to make a Will save every round or be dazed - which means that they can't even attempt to break out. This is where you pin your opponent and the Rogue uses a coup de grace.

4th level: You get a BAB hot diggity! You now have +23 Grapple when it's important (the equal of a Dire Bear, for those keeping track). You also learn some new spells I suggest Balor Nimbus and web

5th level: You get a bonus Metamagic Feat. I suggest either Sudden Extend, or Extend Spell. You also get 3rd level spells. You're probably going to get haste as well as something good like stinking cloud.

6th level: You get a Feat, which will probably be Sudden Maximize. Also you get a +1 to BAB so your grapple bonus just shot past that of a Dire Bear. Also you get some more spells which are Shivering Touch (so once per day you can hand out 18 points of Dex damage as a touch attack in case you come across a Dragon or Purple Worm that can actually beat you in a grapple), and then either shrink item (for all around utility), or girallon's blessing (for ripping peoples' faces right off).

7th level: You may take a prestige class. Or not. I don't even care, because you just got polymorph and the cheese stands alone. Apply all your grapple bull**** as a Remorrhaz, or whatever. I don't even care at this point.-[Original Poster]

I built a character that looked like the above build, except that I went for a funnier and cuter looking character.

An illithid* monk with a baby octopus on it's head.

Some quick sketches I made of Hhe.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg154/GhioT/KeishouSide-2.jpg

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg154/GhioT/Keishouthreequarters-1.jpg



*:That is, it just looked like a messed up sun-elf. I'm not going to actually play a real illithid, that's both stupid and stifiling for build and not condusive to roleplaying creativity. I can bloody well role-play a character idea without having to have their actual stats or abilities. It's called having a brain, and acting.

[Aquillion]

It is necessary, although not "optimal" (oh boy) to have buff spells and utility stuff prepared.Uh, actually, the buff spells and utility stuff are generally considered to be among the best spells the wizard has available. Buff spells provide a long benefit over an extended period of time, and can be cast for 'free' (in terms of actions, the real limit in D&D) if you have any setup time.

Utility spells simply ignore stats, saves, hit points and dice in favor of win. Killing the monster is often kinda pointless if you can just wall it in, teleport past it, drop it in a pit it can't get out of, or whatever. Generally, if you have the right utility spell (or combination of utility spells), you don't even need to roll the dice -- you just win automatically. Utility spells are the best things a wizard has.

Cindy is... Cindy is a special case. Usually, unless you abuse the hell out of Arcane Thesis or something, blasting is not considered that great. Cindy just uses it because if you abuse Arcane Thesis and a lot of metamagic to make the damage on orbs absurd, then there's very little your opponents can do to defend against them (and even those defenses can often be addressed with more metamagic.)

[FMArthur]

Not necessarily; the wizard still has a library in his back pocket dedicated to other ways to kill you. You're just relatively safe from a completely unaltered PW: Kill that hits you at full health.

Fixed that for you.