[Class, 3.5e] The How-It-Should-Be Monk

[Fax Celestis]

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This is part of the d20 Rebirth project, a collection of rewrites and revamps aimed at extending the lifespan of 3.5e D&D and balancing core mechanics to provide a more functional, more fun, and more intuitive game.

Other items in the d20 Rebirth project can be found under the d20r tag (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/tags.php?tag=d20r), or on my wiki (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20_Rebirth).


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HD: d8

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Speed Bonus Monk Weapon Damage Atman Strikes
1st +0 +2 +2 +2 AC Bonus, Unarmed Strike +0' 1d6 2 1
2nd +1 +3 +3 +3 Evasion, Weapon Finesse +0' 1d6 4 1
3rd +2 +3 +3 +3 Fast Movement +10' 1d6 6 2
4th +3 +4 +4 +4 Still Mind +10' 1d8 8 3
5th +3 +4 +4 +4 Ki Strike (Magic), Purity of Body +10' 1d8 10 3
6th +4 +5 +5 +5 - +20' 1d8 12 4
7th +5 +5 +5 +5 Skill Mastery +20' 1d8 14 5
8th +6/+1 +6 +6 +6 Ki Strike (Alignment) +20' 1d10 16 6
9th +6/+1 +6 +6 +6 - +30' 1d10 18 6
10th +7/+2 +7 +7 +7 Diamond Body, Improved Evasion +30' 1d10 20 7
11th +8/+3 +7 +7 +7 Skill Mastery +30' 1d10 22 8
12th +9/+4 +8 +8 +8 - +40' 2d6 24 9
13th +9/+4 +8 +8 +8 Athletic Avoidance +40' 2d6 26 9
14th +10/+5 +9 +9 +9 Ki Strike (Adamantine) +40' 2d6 28 10
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +9 +9 Skill Mastery +50' 2d6 30 11
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10 - +50' 2d8 32 12
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10 Clear Mind +50' 2d8 34 12
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +11 - +60' 2d8 36 13
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +11 Skill Mastery +60' 2d8 38 14
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +12 Improved Athletic Avoidance +60' 2d10 40 15

Skills: A monk chooses three skill sets. 6 + Int skill points per level, x4 at first level.

Prowess: A monk gains four points of prowess per level.

Proficiencies: Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling. A monk's class features occasionally refer to "special monk weapons": all melee weapons listed here are considered such.

Monks are proficient with light armor.

Atman: A monk's strikes (see below) are powered by soul energy, called “atma.” A monk receives atman in the amount listed on the table, plus their Wisdom modifier, on a daily basis. 8 hours of uninterrupted rest, meditation, or prayer recharges this amount.

Strikes: As part of an attack action, a monk may activate any strike she knows by spending between one and four points of atma. Unless otherwise indicated, a strike's effects endure until the end of her turn. A monk may only have one strike active at any given time; should she activate two or more strikes on one turn, the most recent overrides the older strikes. Any strike that allows a saving throw has a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 monk level + Wis mod.

There are four tiers of strikes. Apprentice strikes become available upon the first level of the monk class and cost one point of atma to activate. Initiate strikes are only available to fifth-level and higher monks and cost two points of atma to activate. Master strikes are only available to tenth-level and higher monks and cost three points of atma to activate. Grandmaster strikes are only available to fifteenth-level and higher monks and cost four point of atma to activate.

A monk knows one strike at first level and acquires new strikes at the rate shown on the table.

AC Bonus (Ex): A monk is trained to perceive and avoid attacks before they land. A monk receives her Wisdom modifier as an insight bonus to her Armor Class while wearing light or no armor, not carrying a medium or heavier load, and not using a shield.

Unarmed Strike (Ex): A monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at first level. In addition, her unarmed strikes deal improved damage according to her level (as displayed on the table) or according to her size, whichever is higher. The damage listed on the table is not altered by size, so a Small monk and a Large monk would deal the damage listed on the table, despite being of different sizes.

Furthermore, a monk who uses a special monk weapon uses either the weapon's base damage or her unarmed strike damage, whichever is higher.

Evasion (Ex): At second level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Weapon Finesse: At second level, a monk gains the Weapon Finesse feat as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

Fast Movement (Ex): At third level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown on the table. A monk in medium or heavy armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.

Still Mind (Ex): A monk of third level or higher gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects.

Ki Strike (Su): At fourth level, a monk's unarmed attacks are empowered with ki . Her unarmed attacks and attacks with special monk weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level.

At eighth level, her unarmed attacks and attacks with special monk weapons are also treated as aligned weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. The alignment of her attacks is selected by the monk upon receiving this class feature and does not change. She must select an alignment that matches her own (so a Lawful Good monk could choose to make her attacks either lawful or good, while a Chaotic Neutral one would only be able to make them chaotic). A true neutral monk may select any alignment.

At fourteenth level, her unarmed attacks and attacks with special monk weapons are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

Purity of Body (Ex): At fifth level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.

Skill Mastery: The monk becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.

Upon gaining this ability at seventh level, she selects one skill. When making a skill check with that skill, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. She selects an additional skill at eleventh, fifteenth, and nineteenth levels.

Diamond Body (Su): At tenth level, a monk's mastery of her own physiology improves. She receives immunity to poison and also gains Spell Resistance equal to 10 plus her monk level.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At tenth level, a monk's evasion ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Athletic Avoidance (Ex): At thirteenth level, in any round in which she utilizes either the Spring Attack feat or makes a Tumble check to successfully avoid an attack of opportunity, she receives a 20% miss chance on melee attacks made against her until her next turn.

Clear Mind (Su): At seventeenth level, a monk's mastery over her inner self is complete. She is affected as if continuously under a mind blank spell with a caster level equal to her monk level.

Improved Athletic Avoidance (Ex): At twentieth level, the monk becomes so capable of perceiving her foes' attacks before they make them that she is able to avoid them with preternatural ease. Whenever her Athletic Avoidance ability would grant her a miss chance, it grants her 50% instead of 20%.

Strikes
Apprentice Strikes
Eye Gouge: This strike allows a monk to blind her foes. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Reflex save or be blinded for 1d2 rounds. This strike only affects targets vulnerable to critical hits.

Gentle Fist: This strike allows a monk to overcome her target's damage reduction. She subtracts her Wisdom modifier from her target's damage reduction before determining her damage. Her attacks also ignore miss chance from incorporeality (but not any other form of miss chance).

Flurry of Blows: This strike allows a monk to attack once more, even if this strike is activated as part of a charge or on a standard action attack. All attacks made this round by the monk suffer a -2 penalty to hit. At eighth level and above, this penalty decreases to -1. At twelfth level, she may make two extra attacks. At sixteenth level, the penalty disappears.

Forceful Form: This strike allows a monk to push her foes back with the force of her attacks. Whenever striking a foe, the monk may immediately begin a bull rush. She does not provoke an attack of opportunity for this bull-rush. She forgoes all other attacks in this round, but gains a +2 bonus on the bull-rush check per attack lost in this fashion. If she succeeds in the bull-rush, she may move her foe as far as her check would allow, but she does not need to move with her target.

Nervestrike: This strike allows a monk to knock out her foes. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Will save or fall asleep for 1d2 rounds. This strike only affects targets vulnerable to critical hits.

Sickening Grasp: This strike allows a monk to sicken her foes. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Fortitude save or be rendered sickened for 1d3+1 rounds.

Terrifying Onslaught: This strike allows a monk to terrify her foes. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Will save or be rendered shaken for 1d3+1 rounds. Multiple applications of this strike do not stack.

Throat Punch: This strike allows a monk to silence her foes. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Reflex save or be rendered unable to speak for 1d2 rounds. This strike only affects targets vulnerable to critical hits.

Intiate Strikes
Addling Strike: This strike allows a monk to confuse her foes. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Will save or become confused (as the spell) for 1d3 rounds.

Dayburst Fist: This strike causes a monk to deal extra damage to undead creatures and blind nearby creatures. The monk forgoes all other attacks in the round when making using this strike. A bright flare bursts from the monk's fist on her attack, permanently blinding creatures who fail a Fortitude save within 15'. If the target of the strike is undead, they take 1d6 extra damage per two monk levels (no save).

Eagle Talon: This strike allows a monk to greatly damage objects. Any object struck while this strike is active--including during a sunder attempt--takes double damage.

Eviscerating Slash: This strike allows a monk to overcome her foe's defenses. The monk's attacks this round are considered of a damage type that overcomes their foe's regeneration ability (if they have it) and damage reduction of the following types: DR/adamantine, DR/mithril, DR/cold iron, DR/magic, and DR/silver.

Fiery Fist: This strike coats a monk's attacks in a wreath of flame. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Reflex save or take an additional 1d6 fire damage, plus 1d6 fire damage per three monk levels (2d6 total at fifth level, 3d6 at sixth, 4d6 at ninth, etc).

Forcewind: This strike allows a monk to attack her foes from a distance. The monk may use her melee attacks as ranged attacks this round, with a 10' range increment. For purposes of determining damage and utilizing feats, she treats her attacks as if they were thrown weapons.

Impeding Attack: This strike allows a monk to hinder her foe's movement. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Will save or be affected as if by the slow spell for 1d3+1 rounds.

Pain Touch: This strike allows a monk to damage her foes over time. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Fortitude save or take an additional 1d6 damage (plus 1d6 damage per four monk levels) on the round following the attack. This strike only affects targets vulnerable to critical hits. Multiple applications of this strike do not stack.

Paralyzing Touch: This strike allows a monk to paralyze her foes. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Will save or be paralyzed for 1 round. This strike only affects targets vulnerable to critical hits.

Salvo: This strike allows a monk to randomly damage her foe's capabilities. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Fortitude save or take 1d2 damage to a random ability score. This strike only affects targets vulnerable to critical hits.

Stunning Fist: This strike allows a monk to stun her foes. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Fortitude save or become stunned for 1d4+1 rounds.

Master Strikes
Arcane Recoil: This strike allows a monk to damage foes that are currently under the effects of arcane magic. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Will save or take damage equal to the total caster level of all active, beneficial, arcane spells (not magical items) upon them. For instance, an opponent under the effects of a bull's strength spell cast by an eighth-level caster would take eight extra points of damage. Similarly, an opponent under the effects of a shield spell and a mage armor spell, both cast by a fifteenth-level spellcaster would take 15 points of damage from each spell, for a total of 30 extra points of damage.

Destructive Touch: This strike allows a monk to ruin wood and metal objects. Any object struck while this strike is active is affected as if by a warp wood or rusting grasp spell (chosen upon activation), with a caster level equal to the monk's class level.

Envenomed Strike: This strike allows a monk to poison her foes. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Fortitude save or be affected as if by the poison spell, with a caster level equal to the monk's class level.

Metabolic Unbalancing: This strike allows a monk to make her foe into a ticking time bomb. Upon activating this strike, the monk forgoes all other attacks in this round: she receives a +1 bonus on the DC of this ability for each attack she forgoes in this fashion. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Fortitude save. If they fail this save and they are reduced to 0 or less HP within 1d4+1 rounds, they explode in a gigantic ball of fire. Treat this explosion as a fireball spell with a caster level equal to one-third the target's hit dice. A creature slain in this fashion cannot be reanimated or resurrected by anything short of a limited wish, wish, or miracle spell: there simply isn't enough left to reanimate.

Opening the Weak Spot: This strike allows a monk to weaken her foe's defenses. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Reflex save or have their Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance be halved for 1 round.

Plaguegrasp: This strike allows a monk to disesae her foes. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Fortitude save or be affected as if by the contagion spell, with a caster level equal to the monk's class level.

Roots of the Earth: This strike allows a monk to immobilize her foes. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Reflex save or be immobilized for 1d4+1 rounds. Further, they are affected as if by a dimensional anchor spell, with a caster level equal to the monk's class level.

Spellreaving Fist: This strike allows a monk to dispel magic on her foes. Any creature struck by this strike is affected as if by a targeted dispel magic spell, with a caster level equal to the monk's class level. The monk forgoes all other attacks in this round upon activating this strike. She receives a +2 bonus on her dispel check for each attack she forgoes in this fashion.

Spell Theft: This strike allows a monk to take an ongoing magical effect from her opponent for herself. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Will save. If they fail, the monk may select one ongoing spell effect from her opponent, remove its effects from them, and apply them to herself. The original caster, remaining duration, and other variables remain unchanged: only the target is changed.

Grandmaster Strikes
Arcane Denial: This strike allows a monk to strip arcane spellcasting ability from her foes. Upon activating this strike, she forgoes any other attack she would make in this round. This strike receives a +1 bonus on its save DC for each attack forgone in this manner. Any foe struck by this strike must make a Will save or lose the ability to cast arcane spells for 1d4 rounds.

Divine Interdiciton: This strike allows a monk to strip divine spellcasting ability from her foes. Upon activating this strike, she forgoes any other attack she would make in this round. This strike receives a +1 bonus on its save DC for each attack forgone in this manner. Any foe struck by this strike must make a Will save or lose the ability to cast divine spells for 1d4 rounds.

Frozen in Time: This strike allows a monk to freeze her foes in time. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Will save or be affected as if by the temporal stasis spell, with a caster level equal to the monk's class level.

Quivering Palm: This strike allows a monk to slay her foes. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Fortitude save or be struck dead.

New Feats
Well of Atman
Prerequisite: Atma pool of at least 10
Benefit: Add your Wisdom modifier to your daily atman. This means you will be adding your Wisdom modifier twice, as your base atma pool is determined by your monk level and modified by your Wisdom modifier.

Unorthodox Schooling
Prerequisite: Know at least two monk strikes
Benefit: Choose one weapon with which you are proficient: it is now considered a special monk weapon for the purposes of your monk class features.

[afroakuma]

Much improved, Fax.

[Telonius]

I really like the concept, but one thing is concerning me. Flurry of Blows is an iconic part of being a Monk, much more so than things like Diamond Body and Ki Strike (adamantine). Making the Monk pay two very limited resources (strikes known and a chakra per use) to get it is like making the Rogue pay something for Sneak Attack. Also, of all of the first-level strikes, it's the only one (besides Forceful Form) that would likely be useful more than once in a combat - so it's more likely the Monk would use up lots of chakras activating it. Especially at low levels, it's going to be hard for a player to justify if it's going to be worth it to activate. I'd say bite the bullet and make it a class feature.

[Weiser_Cain]

You lost me at the alignment restriction.

[Fax Celestis]

I really like the concept, but one thing is concerning me. Flurry of Blows is an iconic part of being a Monk, much more so than things like Diamond Body and Ki Strike (adamantine). Making the Monk pay two very limited resources (strikes known and a chakra per use) to get it is like making the Rogue pay something for Sneak Attack. Also, of all of the first-level strikes, it's the only one (besides Forceful Form) that would likely be useful more than once in a combat - so it's more likely the Monk would use up lots of chakras activating it. Especially at low levels, it's going to be hard for a player to justify if it's going to be worth it to activate. I'd say bite the bullet and make it a class feature.

Frankly, no. Flurry of Blows is just another kind of strike, so it should be treated like one.


You lost me at the alignment restriction.

I almost didn't even put one in.

[Zeta Kai]

Wow, this is great, Fax. I would actually play as a Monk now. Can you tell us a bit about your design approach? What were your thoughts on exactly what makes a Monk a Monk?

[afroakuma]

Check his thread. :smallwink:

[Neek]

I've got to say, this monk is a lot more focused, and has a bit more flavor in it than the monk RAW from 3.5. I appreciate the fact that the monk does something, a horrible debuffer on the combat fields.

A note on balance: Does the damage scale with size? Or are we to assume that a Small Monk and a Large Monk do the same amount of damage?

As well, can we call the 1st level, 5th level, 10th level, and 15th level strikes something else? Seems weird to refer to them by their level. I'd prefer to call them Least Strikes, Lesser Strikes, Great Strikes, and Greater Strikes (similar to Warlock invocations, Least, Lesser, Greater, and Dark)--this'll allow for a more seamless integration into Monk-based PrCs that provide abilities.

I'll have to go through and provide it a more detailed analysis later. Still, I'm impressed. As always, by Fax's work.

[Telonius]

Frankly, no. Flurry of Blows is just another kind of strike, so it should be treated like one.

I don't intend to sound difficult (just trying to help make it a better class). But I'm not sure why it's just another kind of strike. It really does seem to me that it's of a different nature than the rest of the strikes. Almost all of the rest of them bestow some kind of status - sickened, confused, on fire, bull rushed, etc. - to the foe. Flurry is the only one that bestows a status change to the Monk - changing the Monk's attack modifiers rather than hurting the enemy.

EDIT: Noticed one other thing - Forceful Form's bonus would stack with Improved Bull Rush, correct?

[Fax Celestis]

A note on balance: Does the damage scale with size? Or are we to assume that a Small Monk and a Large Monk do the same amount of damage?Nope. It's an override on the regular damage, and instead of coming up with some complex table wherein Large monks would end up rolling 3d6 or 4d6 damage at the high end while Small monks would get the shaft, I figured it would be simpler to just have a fixed amount of damage.


As well, can we call the 1st level, 5th level, 10th level, and 15th level strikes something else? Seems weird to refer to them by their level. I'd prefer to call them Least Strikes, Lesser Strikes, Great Strikes, and Greater Strikes (similar to Warlock invocations, Least, Lesser, Greater, and Dark)--this'll allow for a more seamless integration into Monk-based PrCs that provide abilities.
We most certainly can. I'm just at a loss as for what.

I don't intend to sound difficult (just trying to help make it a better class). But I'm not sure why it's just another kind of strike. It really does seem to me that it's of a different nature than the rest of the strikes. Almost all of the rest of them bestow some kind of status - sickened, confused, on fire, bull rushed, etc. - to the foe. Flurry is the only one that bestows a status change to the Monk - changing the Monk's attack modifiers rather than hurting the enemy.To be honest, I don't really like Flurry of Blows. It nearly didn't make it into this rewrite, but I figured if it didn't at least make an appearance, there'd be pitchforks and torches.

That said, I put it in as a strike because it's no longer the central focus of a monk--the old one's was very much "lots of weaker strikes" focused, or at least was intended to be--but it should still be a viable tactic failing use of other strikes. It also makes the monk the only base class capable of attacking twice on a charge in low levels (well, barring Lion Totemcheese and Sphinx Claws), which provides the monk a unique niche in itself.


EDIT: Noticed one other thing - Forceful Form's bonus would stack with Improved Bull Rush, correct?
It would. There are few instances (in fact, none that I can think of, but I'm sure someone could come up with something) in which that would be utterly broken, so I didn't bother typing Forceful Form's bonus. Presented with a strong enough argument, I may make it nonstacking--but then, what with the inherent weaknesses present in bull-rush already (largely, size bonuses), I figure it shouldn't be an issue.

[Greg]

We most certainly can. I'm just at a loss as for what.
How about: Novice, Adept, Masterful, Perfected?

[Siosilvar]

I see only one problem - a small typo.

Plaguegrasp: This strike allows a monk to disease her foes. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Fortitude save or be affected as if by the contagion spell, with a caster level equal to the monk's class level.

[Pie Guy]

I like this a lot.

Did psionics influence this? it seems vaugely similar (powers and strikes, pp and chakra).

[Demons_eye]

Why not full bab if there is no FoB as a class feature?

[Fax Celestis]

I see only one problem - a small typo.

"Disease" can be used as a verb.

I like this a lot.

Did psionics influence this? it seems vaugely similar (powers and strikes, pp and chakra).

Kinda, yeah.


Why not full bab if there is no FoB as a class feature?

Because the intent for the class is not to be a melee fighter in the traditional sense: this monk's purpose is not to damage foes, but instead to make them suck.

[afroakuma]

Because the intent for the class is not to be a melee fighter in the traditional sense: this monk's purpose is not to damage foes, but instead to make them suck.

*gasp* You mean... he's...

the Batman?

[Fax Celestis]

*gasp* You mean... he's...

the Batman?

That's right, the HiSB monk is the goddamn Batman.

[Greg]

That's right, the HiSB monk is the goddamn Batman.
Shouldn't you add "orphan" to the pre-reqs?

[afroakuma]

"Wealthy," "obsessive,"

I kind of figured you were aiming for that, Fax.

[Lert, A.]

Chakra/Strikes - I assume that the "cost" is 1 chakra per strike.

Other than that little question mark there's nothing really out of place to me.

I agree that a renaming of Strike levels would make things cleaner, even a I-IV Rank rename would work.

EDIT:
Another one: Flurry of Blows appears to be the only strike that scales. Seems a little awkward.

[Fax Celestis]

Chakra/Strikes - I assume that the "cost" is 1 chakra per strike.

Other than that little question mark there's nothing really out of place to me.

I agree that a renaming of Strike levels would make things cleaner, even a I-IV Rank rename would work.

Strikes: As part of an attack action, a monk may activate any strike she knows by spending one point of chakra. Unless otherwise indicated, a strike's effects endure until the end of her turn. A monk may only have one strike active at any given time; should she activate two or more strikes on one turn, the most recent overrides the older strikes. Any strike that allows a saving throw has a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 monk level + Wis mod.

There are four tiers of strikes. First-level strikes become available upon the first level of the monk class. Fifth-level strikes are only available to fifth-level and higher monks. Tenth-level strikes are only available to tenth-level and higher monks. Fifteenth-level strikes are only available to fifteenth-level and higher monks.

A monk knows one strike at first level and acquires new strikes at the rate shown on the table.


Another one: Flurry of Blows appears to be the only strike that scales. Seems a little awkward.The others do scale, but it's in the save DC rather than the effects.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I like it.

Stuff:

1) How about more evocative names for the level of the strikes? Novice, Initiate, Acolyte, and Master would be my choices, but maybe that's just me. (Or, you could copy the Warlock, and do Least, Lesser, Greater, and something more monky than Dark.

2) The capstone is just kind of... meh.

3) With it no longer being restricted to Lawful characters, their weapons being lawful seems kind of odd. Perhaps change it to silver and cold iron?

4) Athletic Avoidance specifically mentions Spring Attack, so it seems kind of odd that monks don't get it as a bonus feat.

5) It seems to me that monks should have d10 HD and full BAB. Even if they're primarily a status dealer, they still are going to be on the frontlines.

You no doubt have some brilliant observations which totally reveals the flaws in my reasonings.

EDIT: Wow, I didn't read the rest of the thread before posting. Including someone suggesting almost word-for-word the names for the strike levels.

[Fax Celestis]

1) How about more evocative names for the level of the strikes? Novice, Initiate, Acolyte, and Master would be my choices, but maybe that's just me. (Or, you could copy the Warlock, and do Least, Lesser, Greater, and something more monky than Dark.
Up in the air right now. I'm trying to come up with something appropriate.


2) The capstone is just kind of... meh. It may look that way at first glance, but 50% miss chance is hyooooge. It means, half the time, even when they do hit your AC, they still miss. It means that the wizard misses with his ray spells half the time (and, thanks to Clear Mind, he can't just tasha's hideous laughterize you). It even means that a rogue can't sneak attack you, even if they do hit.


3) With it no longer being restricted to Lawful characters, their weapons being lawful seems kind of odd. Perhaps change it to silver and cold iron? Well, to be fair, it's "any nonchaotic" for the alignment. I could make it so it just grabs your alignment, so that if you're Lawful Good, it's Lawful and Good.


4) Athletic Avoidance specifically mentions Spring Attack, so it seems kind of odd that monks don't get it as a bonus feat. It mentions Spring Attack as a secondary function, primarily focusing on tumble as means of activation--which is something that monks do get.


5) It seems to me that monks should have d10 HD and full BAB. Even if they're primarily a status dealer, they still are going to be on the frontlines. Ranger has a d8 HD as a frontliner. Totemist, cleric, and druid have 3/4 BAB as frontliners. I think, for this monk, 3/4 BAB is enough. They don't utilize Power Attack, and they get Weapon Finesse for free, so pumping Wis and Dex will make you really difficult to hit and also make your strikes more likely to land. The difference between 3:4 BAB and 1:1 BAB, at that point, becomes a matter of iterative attacks, which (a) usually miss anyway; and (b) are overridden by a couple strikes. Especially since this monk can utilize monk weapons without denying the use of other features (such as, say, unarmed damage).


You no doubt have some brilliant observations which totally reveals the flaws in my reasonings.I usually do. I take it you read my Paladin thread.

[Lord Caravar]

It may look that way at first glance, but 50% miss chance is hyooooge. It means, half the time, even when they do hit your AC, they still miss. It means that the wizard misses with his ray spells half the time (and, thanks to Clear Mind, he can't just tasha's hideous laughterize you). It even means that a rogue can't sneak attack you, even if they do hit.
But it just doesn't say enlightenment like perfect self.

[Lappy9000]

Wow Fax, this is fantastic. I love the idea of a monk as de-buffer (they have a purpose!), they don't suffer from MAD, and some of the strikes are just downright cool. Normally, I wouldn't consider using a complete overhaul from core (too much work), but I may actually try this one out sometime.

Great work, man. Great work.

[Shadow_Elf]

I don't even play 3.Xe, and I can tell how much work this was, and how awesome this is. I hope that Wizards takes this Controller-y angle for the 4e monks in PHB 3 or 4 :smallbiggrin:.

[starwoof]

Well now I use your paladin and your monk.:smalltongue: Great work, Fax. I'm really glad that knockback made it in.

[Fax Celestis]

Added Unorthodox Schooling feat.


Wow, this is great, Fax. I would actually play as a Monk now. Can you tell us a bit about your design approach? What were your thoughts on exactly what makes a Monk a Monk?

The premise I had in mind while designing this class is, "A monk is a debuffing skirmisher."

I started with the idea of fixing common problems with the base monk:
no armor (fixed; now it's light/no)
no weapons (fixed; now monk damage and strikes are deliverable with monk weapons, and Unorthodox Schooling allows for new weapons)
low defenses (fixed; SR provided by Diamond Body is more reasonable; Clear Mind prevents all kinds of mind-affecting; armor bit addressed above; Athletic Avoidance is useful)
MAD (fixed; now the class is nigh-entirely Wis/Dex: 6+Int means skills are buyable; most class features are powered by Wis; Weapon Finesse with a list of almost-entirely finessable weapons, plus strikes designed for debuffing instead of damage means Str can be deprioritized)
Conflicting abilities (fixed; strikes--incl. flurry--are usable even during a charge action or after a move action)
Abilities that seemed frivolous (fixed; you'll notice Abundant Step, Wholeness of Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Timeless Body, and Empty Body are gone.)

From there, I made strikes that were usable frequently but not endlessly and that focused largely on debuffing (even if it's in atypical ways, like the Destructive Touch strike).

[AsuroftheStair]

I love how much character-development you could have with the Strikes! ("I use my Praying Mantis Kick!"). I also like the inventiveness of the Athletic Avoidance ability.
Just wondering- why didn't you use a stance/maneuver scheme like in the ToB? It may add even more flavor, and become balanced with different maneuvers (like the ones you created).

[Fax Celestis]

I love how much character-development you could have with the Strikes! ("I use my Praying Mantis Kick!"). I also like the inventiveness of the Athletic Avoidance ability.
Just wondering- why didn't you use a stance/maneuver scheme like in the ToB? It may add even more flavor, and become balanced with different maneuvers (like the ones you created).

The OGL, actually. If I plan on codifying and coupling all my HiSB stuff into a compendium and putting it up for publication, then it'll need to be pro-OGL. Maneuvers would have fit nicely, but would have also meant that it was using material no longer provided under the OGL.

[Random NPC]

Awesome, but why is the bonus to speed an enhance bonus?

[Kellus]

This looks very cool, and is a great take on assembling all the different ideas of a monk into one class. One think I do want to mention, though, is that the class' 9th level is one of the most boring levels I've ever seen. Please, please, put something in at this level so that a monk won't feel like it's a complete waste.

[SurlySeraph]

Fax, this is amazing. It is, in fact, the monk as the monk should be. And I just saw that you're going to do one for the Ranger too. Awesomeness!

[Magnor Criol]

This class's abilities and role seems like it could be really damn fun to play it. I'm loving the flavor here. The mental images some of the strikes invoke are nicely cinematic - Forceful Form, for instance, and Throat Punch - and the strikes really bring out the classic "obscure martial arts master" feel that I think they originally wanted with the Monk.

I'm not so sold on Skill Mastery. I like monks still being slightly skillmonkey-ey, but Skill Mastery doesn't really feel like it fits thematically. But, then, no one else has mentioned it, so it's probably just me.

Would feats that lets you choose additional strikes ("Expanded Forms: Learn X additional strikes you are eligible to learn") or increase your chakra pool ("Deeper Wisdom: Your chakra pool increases by X / You gain an additional X chakra per level, retroactively applicable") be in order?

For the strike level names, how about something training-themed, like Novice / Apprentice / Journeyman / Master, or Beginner / Secondary / Senior / Sensei?

[Lappy9000]

Awesome, but why is the bonus to speed an enhance bonus?

....because that's how it is on the core monk? :smallconfused:

[Roderick_BR]

Very interesting. Something I'd be able to play as well. It actually gives the monk a theme, as a sort of battle-field controller that doesn't relly in magic.
I can't help noticing that the shakra/strikes reminds me of the ToB, but more light in the rules.
Nice job.

[Kesnit]

Well, to be fair, it's "any nonchaotic" for the alignment. I could make it so it just grabs your alignment, so that if you're Lawful Good, it's Lawful and Good.

What does a TN Monk get? (Please don't take that question as snarky. I don't mean it to be. Just a question.)

[Neek]

I'd probably guess a TN monk would choose, when he gets the ability, what type he wants it to do.

[Edit] Typo.

[Fax Celestis]

Awesome, but why is the bonus to speed an enhance bonus?

That's how it is on the original monk.

This looks very cool, and is a great take on assembling all the different ideas of a monk into one class. One think I do want to mention, though, is that the class' 9th level is one of the most boring levels I've ever seen. Please, please, put something in at this level so that a monk won't feel like it's a complete waste.

It's what I call a "pseudodead level": there's no class features, granted, but your strikes improve, you get more chakra, and you get a feat.


I'm not so sold on Skill Mastery. I like monks still being slightly skillmonkey-ey, but Skill Mastery doesn't really feel like it fits thematically. But, then, no one else has mentioned it, so it's probably just me.I think it fits, myself.


Would feats that lets you choose additional strikes ("Expanded Forms: Learn X additional strikes you are eligible to learn") or increase your chakra pool ("Deeper Wisdom: Your chakra pool increases by X / You gain an additional X chakra per level, retroactively applicable") be in order?Absolutely. Let me draw some up.


For the strike level names, how about something training-themed, like Novice / Apprentice / Journeyman / Master, or Beginner / Secondary / Senior / Sensei?
Apprentice / Initiate / Master / Grandmaster?


What does a TN Monk get? (Please don't take that question as snarky. I don't mean it to be. Just a question.)

Neek got it.

[Stupendous_Man]

Apprentice Grasshopper / Initiate / Master / Grandmaster?



Fixed it for you.

[Person_Man]

Another excellent contribution to gaming Fax. You made a lot of common sense changes, and added original material as well. I think you have a lot of unique and creative Strikes mixed in there. In particular, I love
Destructive Touch, Metabolic Unbalancing, and Spellreaving Fist.

In general, I think your Monk is balanced against fully optimized casters. If that was your goal, then ignore all of the nitpicks that follow. If that wasn't your goal, then here are my suggestions:

Unarmed Strike: Since it applies to Monk weapons, this is open to some big abuse. I could see a player dipping a level into Monk and then using a items, feats, Expansion, and PrC to get 12d8 weapon damage in addition to magic weapon properties, Power Attack, etc. Of course, this is easily fixed by hitting the player over the head with the DMG.

Chakra: I prefer things to be balanced per encounter, rather then per day. But that's because I DM for a mix of veteran and newer players, who respectively abuse or don't understand resource management.

Strikes: The fact that Strikes force multiple Saves per round is very potent - essentially you're as powerful as a Glaivelock at 1st level. And many of the Strike effects (blind, confused, etc) come much earlier then you could otherwise get them with magic or other class abilities. Also, from your wording it appears that you can make Strikes with ranged weapons, which would also be ridiculously potent. I would make most Strikes applicable to the next attack, like the Stunning Fist feat or Smite Evil, and limit the Monk to one Strike per round. This would solve 90% of the potential abuse.

I would also add in a mechanism for swapping out Strikes as you gain levels. A PC might want to multi-class, which would make Save DC dependent strikes useless.

Weapon Finesse: I'd move this up to first level and move the level that you gain Strikes up to second. Otherwise first level Monks will have an extra hard time hitting things in melee at first level.

Skill Mastery: You're handing out Skill Mastery like candy. This treads directly into Rogue Special Ability territory, and is easily much more potent then it.

Diamond Body (Su): At this point, your Monk has 3 good Saves, Improved Evasion, ok hit points, excellent AC, immunity to disease, immunity to poison, good SR, and a variety of fun and useful special attacks. It's only weakness is no Save no SR magic, which is true for every class. IMO, every class should have at least one weakness. So I'd scale back the SR and push it to a later level.

[Fax Celestis]

Unarmed Strike: Since it applies to Monk weapons, this is open to some big abuse. I could see a player dipping a level into Monk and then using a items, feats, Expansion, and PrC to get 12d8 weapon damage in addition to magic weapon properties, Power Attack, etc. Of course, this is easily fixed by hitting the player over the head with the DMG. This actually isn't the case: this damage is regardless of size (as you'll note, there's no improvement on damage for being a Large monk or a reduction for being a Small one). So even if you GMW Colossal++ it out, you're still throwing 2d10, tops.


Chakra: I prefer things to be balanced per encounter, rather then per day. But that's because I DM for a mix of veteran and newer players, who respectively abuse or don't understand resource management.Per-encounter is easier for the end-player, but it's hell to balance.


Strikes: The fact that Strikes force multiple Saves per round is very potent - essentially you're as powerful as a Glaivelock at 1st level. And many of the Strike effects (blind, confused, etc) come much earlier then you could otherwise get them with magic or other class abilities. Also, from your wording it appears that you can make Strikes with ranged weapons, which would also be ridiculously potent. I would make most Strikes applicable to the next attack, like the Stunning Fist feat or Smite Evil, and limit the Monk to one Strike per round. This would solve 90% of the potential abuse.They are capable of forcing multiple saves per round for one reason, and one reason only: they require an attack to land. As such, you need to beat their full AC (not touch) and then have to beat their save. At most, a monk will be throwing out three saves a round at high levels, since it only applies to attacks made on their turn.

Strikes with ranged weapons are not intended; I'll fix that.


I would also add in a mechanism for swapping out Strikes as you gain levels. A PC might want to multi-class, which would make Save DC dependent strikes useless.Point. I'll add that.


Weapon Finesse: I'd move this up to first level and move the level that you gain Strikes up to second. Otherwise first level Monks will have an extra hard time hitting things in melee at first level.Doing that would make this into the Ultimate Dip Class™, which I don't want to do.


Skill Mastery: You're handing out Skill Mastery like candy. This treads directly into Rogue Special Ability territory, and is easily much more potent then it.The HiSB Rogue gets much better (and more frequent) Skill Mastery, so I don't see it as a large issue.


Diamond Body (Su): At this point, your Monk has 3 good Saves, Improved Evasion, ok hit points, excellent AC, immunity to disease, immunity to poison, good SR, and a variety of fun and useful special attacks. It's only weakness is no Save no SR magic, which is true for every class. IMO, every class should have at least one weakness. So I'd scale back the SR and push it to a later level.That is a valid point. However, for me, 14+level for SR isn't too powerful: it means an equal-leveled caster with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration has a 50% chance of overcoming it.

I guess I could downgrade it to 10+level, which would make having SP and GSP would be 70% chance of overcoming. That makes sense. I'll go with that.

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, couple changes:
Strike tiers are named.
Special monk weapons are defined as "melee weapons", which prevents ranged strikes with crossbows and shuriken, and also prevents a shuriken from doing 2d10 damage.
Skill Mastery cut back to one skill instead of two.
Unarmed Damage specified as not according to size.

[MammonAzrael]

Since the unarmed damage isn't affected by size, shouldn't there be a clause that lets you use your normal unarmed damage, if that is higher? If I'm a colossal creature, I don't want to slap on a level or two of monk and have my unarmed damage go down. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Also, I think there needs to be more Grandmaster strikes. As it stands now, going a full Monk 20 nets you all the Grandmaster strikes with a slot to spare. I think there should be at least as many GM strikes are there are opportunities to learn them, preferably more.

[Fax Celestis]

Since the unarmed damage isn't affected by size, shouldn't there be a clause that lets you use your normal unarmed damage, if that is higher? If I'm a colossal creature, I don't want to slap on a level or two of monk and have my unarmed damage go down. :smalltongue:True.


EDIT: Also, I think there needs to be more Grandmaster strikes. As it stands now, going a full Monk 20 nets you all the Grandmaster strikes with a slot to spare. I think there should be at least as many GM strikes are there are opportunities to learn them, preferably more.

I couldn't think of any. Ideas?

[thegurullamen]

I couldn't think of any. Ideas?

Whatever it'll be, it's got to be worse than death or losing the ability to cast.

Damnation, maybe? Anathema for a day/until you save against it? Mindrape? Eternity of Torture? Forced insta-alignment change....PERMANENTLY BWAHAHAHA!! (Really, any 9th level BoVD or BoED spell qualifies.)

Or just make Nailed to the Sky a sub-epic level thing. It's too cool to be wasted on a useless system.

[Human Paragon 3]

Here are a few ideas:

Flying Fist
A strike that gives the monk a fly speed of 10 and +2 to hit for each attack forgone.

Devestating Touch
Lets the monk make touch attacks that deal 100 damage (number can be tweaked for balance. I know this is counter to the status effect master, but I think as a Grand Master you should be able to deal damage on your own. maybe 5 damage/level would be good)

Quantam Strike
Lets the monk teleport 5 (10?) feet per attack forgone and makes opponents flat footed for one attack.

Dissintegrating Strike
Mimics the dissintigrate spell

Dimensional Strike
Mimics Dimension Shift (send your opponent to the 9th circle of hell, or, if you prefer, to Elyssia to reap their 'reward')

I'd like to see a Cowering Strike as well.

[Zeta Kai]

Or just make Nailed to the Sky a sub-epic level thing. It's too cool to be wasted on a useless system.

Actually, he might be onto something. Epic-level debuffs might be appropriate for a Grandmaster Strike.

[Yakk]

Per-encounter is easier for the end-player, but it's hell to balance.

What about a small pool of per-encounter chakra? Have a daily pool, and also have Wisdom bonus (or monk level, whichever is lower) free per encounter?

Note that a monk can often efficiently burn two chakra per round -- one on a 'save or suck' power, and just before the iterative attack ends, one on flurry of blows.


As such, you need to beat their full AC (not touch) and then have to beat their save.
Brilliant energy monk weapons for the win?

What about some kind of mechanic that allows more flurry of blows (with strikes active), but each strike can only be attempted on a given target once per round?

As an example, the strikes could be changed to evaluate at the end of the monk's turn.

Now your monk can activate a chakra, flurry at one target until they hit, then change to a second or activate a second chakra to get a 2nd debuff on the target.

...

Dead levels: 6 9 12 16 18 on your table.
Of these, 6 and 16 open up a new tier of Strikes.

That leaves 9 12 18. We could toss in 15 for a nice 3 level progression.

You mentioned eliminating frivolous abilities:

Abilities that seemed frivolous (fixed; you'll notice Abundant Step, Wholeness of Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Timeless Body, and Empty Body are gone.)
All of these are utility/flavor abilities.

What if you had a list of such utility/flavor abilities, and granted the monk access to one of their choice at 6 9 12 15 and 18?

Some of them -- like Abundant Step -- could cost daily chakra to use. Others could be free.

...

Grandmaster ideas:
Some kind of super-mobility power:
After each hit this round, you get to take a 15 foot step.

Cage of Blows (lasts until start of next turn, requires that you hit the target at least once):
Each time the target moves 5', the monk can take a 5' step. Each time the target makes an attack, casts a spell, or activates a magic item, the monk may make an interception attack on them. The interception attack places a -5 penalty on the attack roll and DC of the intercepted attack, spell, or activation.

(a lockdown
Per-encounter is easier for the end-player, but it's hell to balance.

What about a small pool of per-encounter chakra? Have a daily pool, and also have Wisdom bonus (or monk level, whichever is lower) free per encounter?

Note that a monk can often efficiently burn two chakra per round -- one on a 'save or suck' power, and just before the iterative attack ends, one on flurry of blows.


As such, you need to beat their full AC (not touch) and then have to beat their save.
Brilliant energy monk weapons for the win?

What about some kind of mechanic that allows more flurry of blows (with strikes active), but each strike can only be attempted on a given target once per round?

As an example, the strikes could be changed to evaluate at the end of the monk's turn.

Now your monk can activate a chakra, flurry at one target until they hit, then change to a second or activate a second chakra to get a 2nd debuff on the target.

...

Dead levels: 6 9 12 16 18 on your table.
Of these, 6 and 16 open up a new tier of Strikes.

That leaves 9 12 18. We could toss in 15 for a nice 3 level progression.

You mentioned eliminating frivolous abilities:

Abilities that seemed frivolous (fixed; you'll notice Abundant Step, Wholeness of Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Timeless Body, and Empty Body are gone.)
All of these are utility/flavor abilities.

What if you had a list of such utility/flavor abilities, and granted the monk access to one of their choice at 6 9 12 15 and 18?

Some of them -- like Abundant Step -- could cost daily chakra to use. Others could be free.

...

Grandmaster ideas:
Some kind of super-mobility power:
After each hit this round, you get to take a 15 foot step.

Cage of Blows (lasts until start of next turn, requires that you hit the target at least once):
Each time the target moves 5', the monk can take a 5' step. Each time the target makes an attack, casts a spell, or activates a magic item, the monk may make an interception attack on them. The interception attack places a -5 penalty on the attack roll and DC of the intercepted attack, spell, or activation.

[Fako]

What about giving them a strike that lets them disable an enemy's limb(s) with a successful hit? I can imagine them hitting joints to lock down wings and legs, preventing their foe from escaping...

[Fax Celestis]

Dead levels: 6 9 12 16 18 on your table.
Of these, 6 and 16 open up a new tier of Strikes.

That leaves 9 12 18. We could toss in 15 for a nice 3 level progression.

Again, those are pseudodead levels: you get feats there--except in the case of 16, but then 15 is a treat level.

[Person_Man]

Per-encounter is easier for the end-player, but it's hell to balance.

True. I think ToB has an excellent model. But you're not trying to recreate the Swordsage, nor should you.


They are capable of forcing multiple saves per round for one reason, and one reason only: they require an attack to land. As such, you need to beat their full AC (not touch) and then have to beat their save. At most, a monk will be throwing out three saves a round at high levels, since it only applies to attacks made on their turn.

Point conceded.

But I still contend that some of the effects are just too powerful for the given level. For example, Eye Gouge is a Blind effect that (essentially) lasts until the end of combat. A Blind enemy takes a -2 to AC, is denied their Dex, moves at half speed, takes a -4 to Search, Str, and Dex Skill checks, and has a 50% miss chance. A Blind enemy has essentially lost combat. A 2nd level human Monk with the Eye Gouge Strike (Ref Save), TWF, and the Stunning Fist feat (Fort Save), and respectable Dex/Wis would be able to deal a massive smackdown on virtually any enemy.

Perhaps it would be prudent to add some method of removing the Strike effect? For example, the Heal Skill, magical healing, and Fast Healing? Alternatively you could lower the duration of most effects to 1ish round. Long enough to matter (especially for a full attack), but not long enough to make it a permanent Save or Lose effect. And/or perhaps Ki Strike should be a Spell-Like ability that does not provoke an AoO, so that Spell Resistance and Dispel Magic would apply?

Again, I really like where you're going with this homebrew. It's just that (the often mythical) balance is always a concern when introducing new elements to the game.

[MammonAzrael]

Forgetful Strike: This strike allows a monk to land a precise blow to an opponents head, causing them to black out and destroying it's short-term memory. Upon activating this strike, she forgoes any other attack she would make in this round. This strike receives a +1 bonus on its attack roll for each attack forgone in this manner. Any foe struck by this strike is knocked unconscious for 1d4 rounds and must make a Fortitude save or forget the last 1d6 hours.

Touch of the Untouchable: This strike allows a monk to focus his mind, ignoring all distractions from her foe. The monks attacks ignore all miss chances.

Soul Sever: This strike allows a monk to sever a soul's bindings to this plane, or any other. Upon activating this strike, she forgoes any other attack she would make in this round. This strike receives a +1 bonus on its save DC for each attack forgone in this manner and deals no damage. Any foe struck by this strike must make a Will save or have their soul severed from all ties that bind it. A foe that fails their save cannot be resurrected by any means, including True Resurrection. Their soul remains in their body until the body dies, at which time it is lost forever. If the foe's soul is not in it's body, the soul is instantly lost.

Just a couple ideas. I like the idea of modding epic spells into strikes. :smallsmile:

[Lappy9000]

I couldn't think of any. Ideas?

Two words: Kamehameha wave.

Possibly Hadouken.

A first time player using a monk saw "Ki Strike" and thought it was a hadouken. I was very depressed when I had to tell him it didn't work that way :smallfrown:

[Human Paragon 3]

Two words: Kamehameha wave. Possibly Hadouken.

A first time player using a monk saw "Ki Strike" and thought it was a hadouken. I was very depressed when I had to tell him it didn't work that way :smallfrown:

This isn't everyone's idea of a monk, but I agree that it could fit with this particular class. Maybe make energy blasts into a feat or feat chain that opens up new energy blast strikes.

[Lappy9000]

This isn't everyone's idea of a monk, but I agree that it could fit with this particular class. Maybe make energy blasts into a feat or feat chain that opens up new energy blast strikes.

True, but the monk is a mishmash of (often) mythical martial arts abilities. Plus D&D has a habit of utilizing the Rule of Cool, and energy blasts are almost indefinitely cool.

[Human Paragon 3]

True, but the monk is a mishmash of (often) mythical martial arts abilities. Plus D&D has a habit of utilizing the Rule of Cool, and energy blasts are almost indefinitely cool.

I'm behind ya. I was just saying that if Fax wanted to veer away from that particular archetype, a feat chain might be a good way of including it for those who want to go over 9000.

[Random NPC]

Strike to the Soul: The monk attack the target's mind and destroys it with a single blow. The monk forgoes all other attacks in the round when using this strike. She deals ability damage to Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma instead of the damage she deals normally to the creature she strikes.

[Kellus]

Sorry to keep harping on this one point, but I really do like the class – honest!

I don't have a problem with the pseudodead levels of the class other than 9th. At the other levels they get something, even something as small as a new strike, to keep them happy 'til the next level. But at 9th level the ONLY differences the monk has are his speed increasing by 10ft., and 2 extra points of chakra. Even his statistics; his saves and BAB stay the same as well. Granted, he may be eligible for the 9th level feat depending on whether he's multiclassed, but he would get that no matter what class he's taking. All levels should have SOMETHING to make them worthwhile.

Otherwise, very cool. I really love the way you've handled the different debuffing abilities.

[Fax Celestis]

But I still contend that some of the effects are just too powerful for the given level. For example, Eye Gouge is a Blind effect that (essentially) lasts until the end of combat. A Blind enemy takes a -2 to AC, is denied their Dex, moves at half speed, takes a -4 to Search, Str, and Dex Skill checks, and has a 50% miss chance. A Blind enemy has essentially lost combat. A 2nd level human Monk with the Eye Gouge Strike (Ref Save), TWF, and the Stunning Fist feat (Fort Save), and respectable Dex/Wis would be able to deal a massive smackdown on virtually any enemy.

Perhaps it would be prudent to add some method of removing the Strike effect? For example, the Heal Skill, magical healing, and Fast Healing? Alternatively you could lower the duration of most effects to 1ish round. Long enough to matter (especially for a full attack), but not long enough to make it a permanent Save or Lose effect. And/or perhaps Ki Strike should be a Spell-Like ability that does not provoke an AoO, so that Spell Resistance and Dispel Magic would apply?

Yeah, okay, I'll lower the duration on some of the lower-tier strikes. I'm going to go with 1d2 rounds, for now.

[Random NPC]

Two words: Kamehameha wave.

Possibly Hadouken.

A first time player using a monk saw "Ki Strike" and thought it was a hadouken. I was very depressed when I had to tell him it didn't work that way :smallfrown:



Forcewind: This strike allows a monk to attack her foes from a distance. The monk may use her melee attacks as ranged attacks this round, with a 10' range increment. For purposes of determining damage and utilizing feats, she treats her attacks as if they were thrown weapons.

:smallwink:

[Yakk]

Feats come from character, not class, progression. There are still dead levels in the class progression. :)

I wasn't suggesting serious power -- just return some of that relatively useless fluff into those levels, for players to get a new toy.

Meditations:
At level 9, 12, 15 and 18 you gain access to a Meditation from the following list:

Timeless Body (Ex): You no longer take any penalties from your age category. This can reverse existing age penalties.

Purity of Body (Ex): You are immune to all non-magical/supernatural diseases, and gain a Wisdom bonus to saves against all magical or supernatural diseases.

Wholeness of Body (Ex): The monk can heal herself by her monk level, plus her wisdom modifier, as a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This costs 2 chakra per use.

Abundant Step (Su): The monk can cast dimension door (caster level equal to her monk level) as a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This costs 3 chakra, plus 1 chakra for every 5' traveled.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex): The monk can speak and understand any language.

Empty Body (Su): As a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, the monk may go Ethereal. This costs 5 chakra, plus 5 chakra per round that the monk remains Ethereal. The monk may cross back over as a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

...

All of these are relatively weak and/or expensive to use.

[Lappy9000]

I'm behind ya. I was just saying that if Fax wanted to veer away from that particular archetype, a feat chain might be a good way of including it for those who want to go over 9000.

This class could actually terrorize wizards, allowing the following scene to actually happen:

*Ember charging up chakra strike*
Grand Evoker Nammaium: Vegetis! What do the goggles say about her power level?
Archmage Vegetis: It's...*Crushing +1 Goggles of Sense Power* OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAND!!!

EDIT: Thank you Random NPC. Yup. Thar's already one in thar. Hurr.

[afroakuma]

Two words: Kamehameha wave.

Possibly Hadouken.

A first time player using a monk saw "Ki Strike" and thought it was a hadouken. I was very depressed when I had to tell him it didn't work that way :smallfrown:

Have you seen PHB2, Lappy? Ki Blast is a Hadouken. Fiery Fist (or whatever) is a Shouryuken.

[Innis Cabal]

Two words: Kamehameha wave.

Possibly Hadouken.

A first time player using a monk saw "Ki Strike" and thought it was a hadouken. I was very depressed when I had to tell him it didn't work that way :smallfrown:

Have to agree.

Your already using "Chakra" which is another hang up for me for this class. Not only because..other then a miuse, its already used by Incarnum(more correctly as well)

[Fax Celestis]

Have to agree.

Your already using "Chakra" which is another hang up for me for this class. Not only because..other then a miuse, its already used by Incarnum(more correctly as well)

Do you have a better name for it? Ki is so cliche.

[afroakuma]

Atma is Sanskrit for breath or soul - you could go with that.
Atman, yes, in case anyone tries to correct me. I know.

Alternately, prana, which is the direct Sanskrit transliteration of Qi.

[Innis Cabal]

Quadra, Qi(similar but far more appropriate), or Kosha. Really...anything actually based on spiritual energy.

Chakra comes across as...anime-y.

[Fax Celestis]

Atma is Sanskrit for breath or soul - you could go with that.
Atman, yes, in case anyone tries to correct me. I know.

Is "atman" plural?

[afroakuma]

No, atman would be the direct derivation. However, atma is most easily used. (Mahatma, for example). You could use atman for plural until I track it down.

-ras or -tas are most appropriate. So: atmaram or atmatas.

You know what? I prefer atman. Roll with that. Any other Sanskrit speakers may crack down on you, but I see few volunteers. :smallsmile:

Edit: atman is considered "more plural" than "atma," it's just a concept that isn't usually considered "plural" or "singular" in Sanskrit.

[Fax Celestis]

No, atman would be the direct derivation. However, atma is most easily used. (Mahatma, for example). You could use atman for plural until I track it down.

-ras or -tas are most appropriate. So: atmaram or atmatas.

You know what? I prefer atman. Roll with that. Any other Sanskrit speakers may crack down on you, but I see few volunteers. :smallsmile:

Edit: atman is considered "more plural" than "atma," it's just a concept that isn't usually considered "plural" or "singular" in Sanskrit.

Check my edits, see if the tenses make sense.

[Human Paragon 3]

Yeah, okay, I'll lower the duration on some of the lower-tier strikes. I'm going to go with 1d2 rounds, for now.

This is probably a smart move. It fits better cinematically, too, since you know you only have a round or two to take advantage of the big, bad guy's blindness. I might make it a d3 rounds, though.

[afroakuma]

That works just fine, Fax. I doubt you'll get complaints on atma.

[Fax Celestis]

More changes: added Well of Atma feat a bit ago. Also removed alignment restriction and changed Ki Strike's properties.

[afroakuma]

So tell me this, if Felicia dies somehow, should I expect a strangely powerful monk character to take her place? :smallsmile:

[Human Paragon 3]

Atma... idunno. Would that mean anything to a shaolin monk? It seems sort of yogi-sidharta, which is fine if that's what you're going for, but what's wrong with a more generic Spirit Pool?

[Fax Celestis]

Atma... idunno. Would that mean anything to a shaolin monk? It seems sort of yogi-sidharta, which is fine if that's what you're going for, but what's wrong with a more generic Spirit Pool?

It's generic.

[afroakuma]

You'd call it whatever you like. Technically, chakra makes the least amount of sense. A Shaolin monk would probably call it qi, a samurai would refer to ki and a yogi would speak of prana or atma. But chakra, being a node on one's body, is entirely incorrect.

Nobody, but nobody, would call it "spirit pool."

Personally, I like "atma." It's in use in most of that area, it's a relatively unused term and it has a neat ring.

[Lappy9000]

I quite like the use of atma. I shall change "Forcewind" into Atmanataha Wave! Muahahaha!!

Couple more Grand Master Strikes and I'll yoink this posthaste!

[Ethrael]

I'm loving it very much. I like how you made Flurry of Blows a strike instead of a class ability, it really is much more organized and focused in that way. I like the ideas you put it, giving the class a slight oriental feel, yet also a very martially-based class. I also like the ideas of atma and strikes.

One slight thing (I don't know if this has been mentioned already): even though Perfect Body was, admittedly, a bit out of place and sudden, I really liked the idea of it, especially since it provided a good end goal at 20th lvl. Now, it sort of seems as if 20th is just a continuation from 18th and 19th is you know what I mean, not as a particularly awesome goal or achievement for managing to get to 20th level.

Sorry if I'm a bit unclear, but I really do like the class and I admire how great you've made one of my favourite classes. :smallbiggrin:

[Daracaex]

I can't believe I missed this! Stupid finals!

Awesome job on this, Fax. It's easily my favorite version of the monk. Now to show it to people and get in a game where I can use it…




I'm not so sold on Skill Mastery. I like monks still being slightly skillmonkey-ey, but Skill Mastery doesn't really feel like it fits thematically. But, then, no one else has mentioned it, so it's probably just me.


Think about it this way: A monk is probably going to want tumble as a skill to use in combat. One of a monk's shticks is absolute calm and self-control. Skill Mastery lets the monk tumble with control even in the heat of battle. The same goes for any other skill you might want in combat.

[Gralamin]

I actually never took a good look at your finished version, but I am now :smallwink:

Looking through it, it is awesome, and there aren't any real problems I can see... Wait They aren't proficient with Unarmed strikes :smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

I actually never took a good look at your finished version, but I am now :smallwink:

Looking through it, it is awesome, and there aren't any real problems I can see... Wait They aren't proficient with Unarmed strikes :smalltongue:

*rolls eyes* We went over this.

Besides, I'll qualify somewhere that all creatures are proficient with unarmed strikes, and the -4 penalty for using them without IUS is from something else.

[Gralamin]

*rolls eyes* We went over this.

Besides, I'll qualify somewhere that all creatures are proficient with unarmed strikes, and the -4 penalty for using them without IUS is from something else.

I Expected as much, thats why the ":smalltongue:" was there.

[thevorpalbunny]

This is made of awesome and win with a side of fries which are made of Chuck Norris.

Also, I love the idea of the monk as a "make guys suck" controller. Notably because you can easily make a monk who dislikes violence and prefers to make their opponents really suck instead.

This would open the door for some abuse, but a feat that forces the monk to deal only nonlethal damage but grants extra duration on the strikes would be interesting.

[vegetalss4]

what are the thought behind requiring people to be level 3 before they can star using a nonstandard weapon?

[Fax Celestis]

what are the thought behind requiring people to be level 3 before they can star using a nonstandard weapon?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

[Jasdoif]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.The Unorthodox Schooling feat requires 2 strikes, which you don't have until level 3.

[Fax Celestis]

The Unorthodox Schooling feat requires 2 strikes, which you don't have until level 3.

Ah. It's to prevent one-level dipping.

[Lappy9000]

Weapon Finesse: At second level, a monk gains the Weapon Finesse feat as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.
It's not threadomancy if you've found a typo!

[vegetalss4]

Ah. It's to prevent one-level dipping.

so a balance reason, thanks for clarifying

[endoperez]

Very cool class. If I'll ever play D&D, I'll do my best to have your classes in. In fact, now I want to start a D&D game just so I can get to use your versions of the classes.

I especially like the trick of using Spell Theft to literally slap some sense into a charmed or dominated Fighter. :D I'm not sure if the Monk gets to save against the spell automatically or not, but it might be good to mention that he can save against the spell if he wants to.


Here are several Strikes, mostly inspired by kung fu-movies and what little I know of Chinese martial arts:


The class is missing the ability to move the monk's enemies. A Strike available at Master or Grandmaster level should allow the Monk to send his opponents flying around the battlefield, with extra effect if he hits a wall or another opponent. Pushing Hand would be a fitting name. I think it could work as a grandmaster strike, if the push was far enough (60 feet in a straight line?), the target would fall prone, and would have a chance of being stunned if he hits any obstacle like a wall or a creature.

I'd also like to see a Strike that lets a Monk use a known Strike from one (or two) levels lower, with a ranged attack? It might need a penalty to be balanced. It could scale with your Strike levels: if you take it at a higher level, you can replace the lower-level version with something else. Name suggestion: Long hand.

If a Monk wants to specialize in tripping disarming, it might be useful to have a Strike that lets him to Disarm as if he had full BAB instead of 3/4. It might be initiate level.

A Strike that lets the Monk defy gravity and do awesome wire-fu jumps would be cool, but perhaps not what you intend this Monk to be. Flight for a single round, movement can't end in air? It would work really well with Spring Attack. It could be named White Crane Style, or just Flying Kick.

I'm not sure if it can be worded as a Strike, but it would be nice if the HiSB Monk could spend Atma to act during surprise round. As a strike, it could be named Instinctive Attack.

Stance-disrupting Strike: prevents an enemy from moving as long as they start their turn next to the monk, and gives him a penalty to attacks/actions against the monk. Something like "all attacks the affected creature makes against the monk are made at half BAB", and "the monk adds his Wisdom modifier to all opposed strength checks against a creature affected by this strike", for 1d4+1 rounds. Besides the obvious stuff, it would also help the Monk win in a grapple.


Thanks for the great class! Hopefully some of the ideas others have posted in this thread will help you to fill the list of the Grandmaster strikes.

[slexlollar89]

The strikes you have listed last until the end of the monk's turn, this being said, could a 20th lvl monk make his first atk in a full attack using quivering palm, and the attacked enemy makes the save for the monks two iterative attacks (at +10 and +5 respectively)? if so, the monk in question could make 120 death strikes using all 40 atma. Am i reading this correctly? perhaps I am misinterpreting your intentions regarding the use of the strikes and atma.

[tgva8889]

I really like Strikes. This change is much better than the normal Monk, and I might choose to use it in a game if I ever run one.

The Ki Strike and Still Mind abilities are listed a level higher on the table than the level they are described as in the text.

You spelled "disease" as "disesae" in the Plaguegrasp Strike.

I've been highly enjoying your d20r work, and when it is fully posted I am definitely going to take it for a spin.

[Ashtagon]

Not sure what level to make this one, but it seems to make sense for the class...

Peaceful strike - This immediately ends any barbarian rage, and induces a feeling of calm in the target. They lose any Strength and Dexterity bonuses they may have for attack and damage rolls. Additionally, each time they make an attack, they must make a Will save. Failure results in the damage being treated as non-lethal damage.

I was thinking in terms of having something to strike against warrior types, on a par with the strikes against clerics and wizards at grandmaster level. The exact duration would depend on balance requirements.

[Lapak]

If you're still looking for Grandmaster-level strikes, I can see a couple of possibilities. One of the biggest obstacles for a melee specialist is getting at the person you want to hit, and other than Forcewind - which eats up the Strike, has short range, and can be impeded by anything that would stop other ranged weapons - they don't have any way of getting at foes who are not readily reachable. So, some ideas for Grandmaster Strikes:

Distance-Distorting Strike: This strike allows the monk to attack a target she can see within 30 feet as if it were within melee range, disregarding any obstructions or spaces between them, including physical barriers and Walls of Force. Any normal melee attack can be used with this strike, including trip and disarm attempts.

(I suppose it would allow grapples, but since Strikes expire at the end of the monk's turn I'm not sure how useful that would be or that you'd want to deal with the combined-movement aspect of it.)

Another interesting idea popped up when I thought about how you described the multiple-saves being reasonable because you have to make a full attack: burn a Strike to make a pseudo-touch attack instead.

Armor-Piercing Fist: This Strike allows the monk to ignore all Armor, Natural Armor, and Shield bonuses on the target.

If you want to consider a different capstone ability at 20 (or possibly extend things into Epic) the ability to combine the effects of two Strikes, with an appropriate extra cost in Atman, might be worth considering. That might make them a little too effective, though.

[Fitz10019]

Great work here!

This strike raises a lot of questions for me...


Pain Touch: This strike allows a monk to damage her foes over time. Any foe struck while this strike is active must make a Fortitude save or take an additional 1d6 damage (plus 1d6 damage per four monk levels) on the round following the attack. This strike only affects targets vulnerable to critical hits. Multiple applications of this strike do not stack.


Is this delayed or continuing damage? Is the additional damage on the Monk's next turn, or the foe's? Does the Fort save take place the round the strike is made, or at the beginning of the turn 'on the round following the attack' when it would occur?

Sorry if the answers seem obvious to others. My concerns are spellcasting disruption, and changes to saving throws over time.

[Zaakar]

Great work, Fax. I'm looking forward to play one in our upcoming campaign.

Also, vegetalss4, your sig is hilarius :smallbiggrin:

[Zantumall]

Finally, a reason to use special monk weapons! And I love the speed bonus idea. More excellent work as usual.

[Lvl45DM!]

Shouldnt it get a ki strike(epic) at 20th level?

[Fax Celestis]

Shouldnt it get a ki strike(epic) at 20th level?

No, it gets that at 21st.

[Tom Foolery]

This looks like a very cool fix for Monks. Thanks for making it.

Out of curiosity is there any reason you didn't add the ability to allow monks to get enchantments tattooed or otherwise placed onto their body? That was always something that bothered me with monks.

[Zovc]

Lizardfolk have three natural attacks, right? They qualify for Multiattack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#multiattack). (I was going to make a gnoll monk, but lizardfolk have three natural attacks where as gnolls seem to have one. Should their only natural attack be a bite?)

If things work the way they do, natural attacks are "unarmed strikes," and scale with the monk's unarmed strike damage. So, that's a base of 1d6 at +0/-2/-2 a turn on a full attack.

I'unno, it's probably not that big of a deal to be able to get three attacks in one round as a full action, it's just not something I'd expect at levels 1-5.

[Fax Celestis]

natural attacks are "unarmed strikes,"

They're not. Further, natural attacks are not qualified as "special monk weapons" under the monk's proficiencies.

[Zovc]

I see. Sorry about that tangent, then.

As a side note, I meant to say, "If things work the way I think they do," for the record.

[Tinydwarfman]

Hey Fax, Newbie home-brewer here, I am making a monk of my own, and I was wondering if I could use a few of your Strikes for it's ki powers. Not like a total rip off of your system, just some of the disabling stuff. Love your work btw. Will definitely try to get my group to run it soon.

[qoalabear]

Wonderful remake of the class, which I've only just now discovered via someone linking it.

A couple questions:

1. At what level does the monk gain Ki Strike (magic)? Your table says 5th, but the text still says 4th.

2. Might it be possible gain benefits from using Flurry of Blows and following with one of the strikes that ends your attack while gaining a bonus from attacks lost? I think a strict reading of "the most recent overrides the older strikes" with "forgoes all other attacks in this round ... for each attack forgone in this fashion" says no based on the italicized phrase, but I was hoping for clarification. I'm not sure how balanced spending one extra chakra and taking an attack penalty (painful since the strike only gives you one shot, but this disappears at higher levels) is compared to the DC or skill check bonus you get for the one or two extra attacks.

3.Would either Arcane Denial or Divine Interdiction strikes be able to temporarily strip spell-like abilities as well (as appropriate depending on the spell mimicked)? The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) says that (Sp) are generally as the spell mimicked, defaulting to Sor/Wiz, so they'd generally be arcane.
If not, perhaps a separate strike for temporarily severing spell-like abilities instead?

4.Maybe I'm blind, but you never specify whether strikes are (Ex) or (Su). Most of them are probably (Ex), but there are a couple that feel more supernatural, so it's probably a case by case basis.

Here're my guesses for which are Supernatural, the rest are probably Extraordinary:

Those with seemingly magical effects:
Dayburst Fist (maybe; because of the light burst), Fiery Fist, Envenomed Strike (maybe), Metabolic Unbalancing (maybe; because they explode with FIRE, this move gives great visuals regardless), Plaguegrasp (maybe), Frozen in Time, Quivering Palm

Those that affect magic specifically:
Arcane Recoil, Spellreaving Fist, Spell Theft, Arcane Denial, Divine Interdiction,

Those that have normally supernatural effects and extraordinary effects which would be useful on their own. (For both, the supernatural effect may not matter in AMF anyways so they might be fine as Extraordinary):
Opening the Weak Spot (maybe; for dropping SR), Roots of the Earth (maybe; for preventing dimensional travel, though I can't think of any Ex dimensional travel)

I could be wrong, but I think that poison and disease from seemingly nowhere(as in no venom sacs and not plague-ridden yourself) qualify as supernatural. Even moreso with fire from nowhere.
I was going to include Destructive Touch for the rusting, but then I noticed that rust monsters' rust ability is (Ex). Go figure.