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Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-02, 01:01 AM
Hello playground. My name is Oracle Hunter and I have a problem.

I can't stop sending my PCs into suicide encounters by accident.

Take tonight, for example.
The PCs (LV 2) were investigating an Ancient Ruins that was being excavated by goblins. The party had split up with one PC hanging out at a tunnel junction while the others went off to investigate a dangerous side corridor (which had treasure). I had scripted an encounter with a goblin patrol (EL 1) later inside the Ruins, but since they were actually heading out to forage they would eventually run across the lone PC.

Since I wanted to tweak her for staying behind, I had her hear the scouts coming (they were not trying to be stealthy). I expected her to run and hide, and she ran into the dangerous corridor towards the other PCs, triggering a series of Rockslide Hazards. She got through fine and joined up with the other PCs immediately (as I planned), but the rockslides had alerted the goblins, so they went to see who the intruder was. The party Wizard smacks them with a Magic Missile from 100' away, so the goblins run back the way they came.

So far, so good, right? Well, I figured the goblins would go back to the main camp to alert their boss - seems reasonable, and the PCs sat on their asses for an hour before moving again anyhow. The main force was an EL 3 Encounter already and with the patrol back, it would have been something like an EL 9 or something. I didn't think of that at the time, but I knew that it would've been a much harder Encounter, so I had the Boss send up some Blackblades to track the progress of the PCs. Goblins have Darkvision, so they just hung out at the ends of a couple long corridors and watched for the party's torchlight, and went back to find their relief.

Naturally, when the party found the main force, they were ready to spring the trap. Needless to say, the party is nearly dead and I am at a loss of what to do next. But that's not the real problem.

Now, I knew the main force would be too hard when combined with the patrol, but I couldn't bring myself to have a small force of goblins try to spring a trap when (a) there was nothing valuable to protect outside of the Vault they were breaking into and (b) they had superior numbers freely available. My PCs acted pretty much as I expected them to (and I don't think unreasonably) but they were faced with a clear no-win encounter that I didn't mean to give them. I seem to do this a lot, in fact, usually by causing encounters to run together.

So I am asking you: what kind of tricks, strategies, or guidelines should I use to stop from doing this?

Starsinger
2008-12-02, 01:30 AM
Use more minions when you run encounters together. If that's unacceptable for whatever reason, half the HP of the extra monsters.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2008-12-02, 01:35 AM
Don't use standard encounter builds. Ever. They're tough and no fun. Here's what you do: Replace everything with six minions per level of monster. Not only will that drive your players insane, you should get a kick out of it as well.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-02, 01:36 AM
Use more minions when you run encounters together. If that's unacceptable for whatever reason, half the HP of the extra monsters.

The halving HP is probably a good general option... maybe I can do that to fix this last encounter. I wonder why I didn't think of that :smallredface:

Minions, I use plenty of - to good effect! Goblin Cutters are extremely effective, particularly if you use them to hem in the PCs within the Hexer's Vexing Cloud. Even Thunderwave doesn't do so well at a -4 to hit penalty.

Jothki
2008-12-02, 01:54 AM
Minions, I use plenty of - to good effect! Goblin Cutters are extremely effective, particularly if you use them to hem in the PCs within the Hexer's Vexing Cloud. Even Thunderwave doesn't do so well at a -4 to hit penalty.

Then stop using them to good effect! :smalltongue:

TwystidMynd
2008-12-02, 09:20 AM
Depending on your campaign, you may be playing the Goblins too intelligently, to be honest.

If I encountered that situation as a DM, I would've ruled that some gobbo with ADD and an uncanny penchant for causing trouble would've gotten it into his head somehow that he and a couple of his bestest friends could ambush the PCs during that hour and take them out without the Goblin Boss helping out, thereby earning the The Smartiest Goblin of the Day Award, and maybe having a chance at some fresh Roast Dogleg, instead of being tossed a day-old bone to gnaw on at dinnertime.

Theoretically, that would've broken the encounter up into smaller, more manageable pieces for the PCs, as well as given them an opportunity to capture/interrogate the overzealous goblins to get some kind of intel on the trap being laid for them (as well as providing them with some interesting RP opportunities).

For more intelligent creatures (like Hobgoblins) where they outnumber the PCs 2:1, that wouldn't work out so well; they're disciplined, wise, and cunning, and not likely to split themselves up in the face of serious opposition. There could theoretically still be dissent among the troops, though - perhaps some group decides to parlay with the PCs, or the PCs overhear some arguing (the Leader and his Vice Leader are having an argument over whether to abandon the fortress or fight the PCs off), and some of the Hobgoblins decide it's not worth their lives to fight, and either abstain from the fight or walk out.

For large groups of intelligent creatures (PCs are coming up against a battle where they're outnumbered 4:1 by non-minions), then the PCs probably made a huge mistake, and I can't think of a real reason why the PCs shouldn't be trashed completely ;)

Mercenary Pen
2008-12-02, 09:48 AM
If all else fails, try a story-heavy solution... Maybe some of the goblins get called away mid fight to deal with some other problem...

Not only does this give a potential plot hook and get your players out of trouble, but the messenger who calls the goblins away could be a wonderful recurring NPC...

I vaguely recall either Mike Mearls or Dave Noonan mentioning (in the last D&D podcast) that they weren't certain that 4 minions in practice properly equated to a single monster of the same level (though they were thinking more in terms of Paragon and Epic tier encounters if I recall correctly)...

Beyond that, you might do well to try and characterise your individual monsters rather than just playing them tactically, because- with the exception of constructs, angels and the like- they aren't just gonna be faceless army types. These could be scenarios like the brave but foolhardy minion who tries to solo against one of the party members, the cowardly soldier who hangs back rather than moving up to hold the shield wall, that sort of thing. They've got some kind of self-awareness, even if they don't know exactly what the party can do, perhaps you could treat them that way?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-02, 10:01 AM
If I encountered that situation as a DM, I would've ruled that some gobbo with ADD and an uncanny penchant for causing trouble would've gotten it into his head somehow that he and a couple of his bestest friends could ambush the PCs during that hour and take them out without the Goblin Boss helping out, thereby earning the The Smartiest Goblin of the Day Award, and maybe having a chance at some fresh Roast Dogleg, instead of being tossed a day-old bone to gnaw on at dinnertime.

Seriously. Up to at least the midpoint of the 20th century, this sounds like a perfectly reasonable way for trained, professional soldiers to behave. Training and indoctrination did not produce - and still doesn't - perfect war-machines. A game where ambushes are never ruined or prematurely sprung by foolish or over-eager warriors sounds incredibly unrealistic to me.

Similarly - and this can be a big aid in balancing - enemies, and ones like goblins especially, are mostly far more concerned with protecting their own lives than with taking the PCs'. They are not going to employ the best tactics, because those tactics usually require several individuals to accept that they're going to get killed. So instead of charging in and flanking the PCs, they're likely to retreat and fire missiles until they can't anymore (by reason of a wall or being pressed too close with their own companions). A lone goblin is more likely to turn tail and run than help another lone friend by flanking his attacker; at the very least, he'd probably find a melee with more allies in it and take part in that.

By introducing some realistic stupidity and poor tactics, you can make a tough encounter much easier. Even trained and hardened troops can break or make mistakes.

Galdor Miriel
2008-12-02, 11:19 AM
I think you should use the suggested encounters from the dungeon masters guide when faced with this kind of situation.

I think that your original setup was for an easy encounter with the patrol, then a slightly more difficult one with the main camp. I think you are right that the encounter should have been harder, but maybe you could have just included baddies to up it one level. The pcs did not know your original plan so it does not matter squat, what does matter is that you say, "The goblins knew you were coming guys!", so they think more about tactics etc and not sitting around on their fannies.

So to summarise, you had an ECL 1 followed by an ECL 3 ,replace with one ECL 4. Tough fight but not TPK.

It takes just a couple of minutes to do the math and is just a chance for a break for the players.

Mando Knight
2008-12-02, 11:25 AM
The players should have sprung for Sunrods... then throw the sunrods at the darkness. It's like a super-bright no-heat torch... brings bright light to the otherwise dark dungeon, making the goblins lose their concealment.

...actually, if they purchased the standard Adventurer's pack, each one carries two of the things.

Vortling
2008-12-02, 11:35 AM
Minions, I use plenty of - to good effect! Goblin Cutters are extremely effective, particularly if you use them to hem in the PCs within the Hexer's Vexing Cloud. Even Thunderwave doesn't do so well at a -4 to hit penalty.

The biggest problem I've seen with 4e DMing, though is applies to pretty much any game, is that the DM thinking very tactically and strategically leads to players getting screwed. Yes it would make lots of logical perfect sense for the goblins to behave the way they did, but who said every single goblin followed logical perfect sense. Have your monsters react emotionally to situations and you'll come up with less strategic and tactical situations. The key is the emotional response. Have them make snap decisions and have them stick to them, even if those decisions are incredibly stupid.

4e specific: Never ever ever let encounters run together. Even if there's no good reason for them not to run together, don't let them run together. That way lies the TPK.

ashmanonar
2008-12-02, 11:36 AM
Not to "blame the victim" here, but it sounds like your PC's called down the thunder on themselves. First, by splitting up (a mortal sin!), then by waiting around when they knew an enemy knew they were there! They shoulda been hightailing it as soon as the enemies ran away and they couldn't stop them.

These gobbos sound kinda intelligent, but you shouldn't have to dumb your encounters down when your PC's make dumb choices. An ally is killed? They'd likely run away and find their leader or more of their friends. If the enemy is still in their tunnels, they'll gather enough people and get the invaders.

I don't see how that's uberintelligent; seems more like simple common sense.

However, if you don't want to kill your PC's, have them wake up in the Gobbo camp, tied up (maybe rather poorly). Adventure hook! You didn't plan on it, but now they have to escape and get their gear, so as to get out.

potatocubed
2008-12-02, 12:05 PM
However, if you don't want to kill your PC's, have them wake up in the Gobbo camp, tied up (maybe rather poorly). Adventure hook! You didn't plan on it, but now they have to escape and get their gear, so as to get out.

I like this option. Bear in mind that in 4e the difference between killing someone and knocking them out is as easy as choosing to subdue them with the final attack. By forcing the PCs to escape - quite possibly without some of their choicest gear - you're still punishing them for being a bit thick (and they were a bit thick) but you haven't TPKed them.

Saph
2008-12-02, 12:08 PM
I've run into this same problem when I've DMed 4e games. The encounter system assumes that the monsters will be split into small groups and that they'll meet the PCs seperately, allowing them to be defeated in detail. But as soon as you start playing the monsters intelligently, the natural thing for them to do is concentrate their forces - which means the PCs are almost certain to lose.

As far as I can see, there are two solutions:

1) Put the responsibility on the PCs to figure out ways to make the odds in their favour. The PCs have to set things up so that they only fight enemies a few at a time. If they screw up, they die.

2) Suck it up. The monsters arrange themselves into parcels of appropriate-XP encounters, they never team up, and they do this because they're dumb and that's all there is to it. On the plus side, most players won't notice, so it's not actually that much of a problem unless you have a group who hate playing on easy mode.

- Saph

Dublock
2008-12-02, 12:24 PM
if you have a group that hates playing on easy mode, don't pay attention to this thread and make them work for everything ;)

AKA_Bait
2008-12-02, 12:29 PM
You can also consider using the monsters as internally political groups. Consider dropping some behavioural tropes on them and how that might effect encounter design. Remember, these things never made it out of the caves for a reason.

A few examples:

Kobolds are Cowards: They use their shifty power to hide behind eachother during combat. Making them less effective than they should be. Also, they flee at first sign of defeat unless commanded back into the fray. i.e. the PCs don't need to kill all the Kobolds, if they take out the Shaman and a draonshield the rest turn tail and run, even if there are still enough of them to take out the party.

Goblins Cannot Be Trusted: The party is surrounded and the big bruiser chief goblin is toe to toe with the part fighter when all of a sudden the #2 goblin in the tribe, and around 1/2 the goblins, switch sides and start attacking the other goblins. Goblin #2 wanted to be chief, the PCs gave him the perfect opportunity move up the social ladder. This can either end the fight, with the Goblins letting the PC's go, or make it easier by turning it into a 3 way battle with some of the enemy forces concentrating on eachother.

CaptainTommy
2008-12-02, 12:33 PM
The thing I always have to remember when I put my PC's in this situation (only once so far, but a lucky 20 on a death save ended up changing the encounter) is that the monsters don't HAVE to kill them. Just have them be knocked out for a short rest (letting them heal up with healing surges as normal) and wake up in a prison, sans items. Goblins might have some use for slaves, or hell, they know that their adventurer's, perhaps they can be used as ransom. This leads to a new area, with smaller groups, allowing the PCs to get back on their game.

This also leads for a VERY fun fight for your players. Now, some players would hate this (I'm pointing at you powergamers) but this allows your none item required players, the warlocks and wizards, to run through a simple encounter that suddenly becomes hard when the fighter has to improvise, and the rogue has to Aid Another.

Remember, death isn't the end, because that isn't fun. :smallsmile:

Armoury99
2008-12-02, 12:48 PM
Actually... I don't see anything wrong with the situation you've described. :smallamused:

The goblins acted intelligently, like the bellicose tribal people that they are and not like a bunch of nameless mooks who exist only to give the PCs treasure and XP. The blame here rests squarely on the shoulders of the PCs: Yes they had a tough encounter, but that was due to poor work on part and you didn't overplay the intelligence of the goblins at all: they live and die in the wilds (not to mention assaults by murderous PCs) after all.

Personally I dislike big mechanical fixes for this sort of thing, so the only thing I'd suggest to help avoid accidentally doing this in future is a very general one: always consider the "worse case scenario" in your planning. Assume the PCs totally screw up (in this case make loads of noise then obliviously camp out) and do a little math to keep the encounter from going overboard. Seriously though, in this case I don't see a problem - nearly dead but victorious is the perfect end to a major encounter (and having the goblins keep watch on the comparatively highly dangeorus adventurers was a good move).

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-02, 02:07 PM
There is some very good advice here.

Considering how I had arranged the goblins, it would have made sense for the Patrol Leader (a Blackblade - known for being shifty and gutsy) to have tried to set up an ambush, with hopes of getting glory and loot... that he doesn't have to share with the Hexer who is "in charge" according to their Hobgoblin Overlord.

I think that, in the future, I'll script out the tactical posture of my baddies with this in mind. When put on the spot, I tend to run these things as tactically sound as they could (within reason).

So, while it made good sense for the goblins to post sentries so that the main force didn't have to remain on alert the whole time, and to set up a "bait and switch" ambush, the goblins were not arranged to avoid AoE attacks, and they did not try to rush past the front line to chew up the casters. Maybe that was too smart for the gobos, but the Hexers of this Clan are all smart enough to be Ritual Casters, so I gave it a pass.

Thanks a lot!

Yakk
2008-12-02, 02:43 PM
The PCs where attacking a Goblin fortress, which contained more Goblins than they could defeat. The only chance they have is if the Goblins split up and they face the party down in chunks.

You can design your Goblin fortress to contain, say, a total of a (Party level +5) encounter. That is a hard, yet not impossible, encounter to fight in one go. Then if the Goblins fight intelligently, the party is in trouble -- and if the party fights intelligently, they can defeat the Goblins in detail (ie, as two Party level +0 encounters -- easy peasy).

For extra encounters, you can have some Party level -1 encounters based around traps and small numbers of Goblins set up as 'watch posts'. They attempt to disengage and warn the main body of Goblins.

But yes, fighting 4 even-level encounters at once will probably wipe your group.

TwystidMynd
2008-12-02, 04:04 PM
The PCs where attacking a Goblin fortress, which contained more Goblins than they could defeat. The only chance they have is if the Goblins split up and they face the party down in chunks.

You can design your Goblin fortress to contain, say, a total of a (Party level +5) encounter. That is a hard, yet not impossible, encounter to fight in one go. Then if the Goblins fight intelligently, the party is in trouble -- and if the party fights intelligently, they can defeat the Goblins in detail (ie, as two Party level +0 encounters -- easy peasy).

For extra encounters, you can have some Party level -1 encounters based around traps and small numbers of Goblins set up as 'watch posts'. They attempt to disengage and warn the main body of Goblins.

But yes, fighting 4 even-level encounters at once will probably wipe your group.

I gotta admit, the use of Traps and Hazards seem like a pretty good way to circumvent this sort of problem in the future.

As per Yakk's suggestion, let's say you want the party to be able to fight the goblins in 4 different battles, but you also want there to be the possibility of the PCs using poor tactics and alerting the Goblins, bringing the keep down on their heads - in this situation, you want the result of poor tactics to be more difficult than any individual battle, but not completely overwhelming:
Group 1
2 Goblins
4 Minions
1 Trap

Group 2
2 Goblins
0 Minions
2 Traps

Group 3
1 Goblin
4 Minions
2 Traps

Group 4
2 Goblins
4 Minions
1 Trap

Now, if every goblin is alerted to the presence of the characters, then the best they can manage is:
HUGE Group A
7 Goblins
12 Minions
2 Traps
Since they can't use all of the traps at once (they're in different rooms, and can't move).

Versus the results of what had happened if you'd used Goblins instead of traps:
HUGE Group B
13 Goblins
12 Minions

So you effectively "save" 4 Goblins worth of challenge by turning the goblins into traps in this scenario. This make the "HUGE Battle" more manageable if all of the groups are working together, while maintaining a reasonable challenge if all of the groups are separated.

Hal
2008-12-02, 04:27 PM
If all else fails, try a story-heavy solution... Maybe some of the goblins get called away mid fight to deal with some other problem...


I'm with this solution. Not having more context, I have to ask two questions:

1. Why are the PCs/goblins investigating these ruins?
2. Is the only reason for these groups to fight because they both want whatever is in the vault?

I could see a few options happening here. Maybe the goblin leader sends an envoy to bargain with the PCs (since the PCs are clearly in the weaker position). I'll leave it to you to figure out what he wants from them.

Or perhaps the vault doesn't contain treasure, but something that butchers all of the goblins nearby when the vault opens. The goblins get called away mid-fight, or the PCs get dragged back to camp as prisoners, only to find mangled goblin bodies everywhere. Now they have reason to band together for survival rather than kill each other.

I don't know what you have planned for your story further in, but I'm sure you could find some way or adjusting a similar situation into your plot.

Doomsy
2008-12-02, 04:34 PM
You can also consider using the monsters as internally political groups. Consider dropping some behavioural tropes on them and how that might effect encounter design. Remember, these things never made it out of the caves for a reason.

A few examples:

Kobolds are Cowards: They use their shifty power to hide behind eachother during combat. Making them less effective than they should be. Also, they flee at first sign of defeat unless commanded back into the fray. i.e. the PCs don't need to kill all the Kobolds, if they take out the Shaman and a draonshield the rest turn tail and run, even if there are still enough of them to take out the party.

Goblins Cannot Be Trusted: The party is surrounded and the big bruiser chief goblin is toe to toe with the part fighter when all of a sudden the #2 goblin in the tribe, and around 1/2 the goblins, switch sides and start attacking the other goblins. Goblin #2 wanted to be chief, the PCs gave him the perfect opportunity move up the social ladder. This can either end the fight, with the Goblins letting the PC's go, or make it easier by turning it into a 3 way battle with some of the enemy forces concentrating on eachother.

I did that a couple of times when doing a 3.5 Drow thing back in July. The best part is that the first time I did it, the PCs actually thought the backstabbing Drow were on their side. Boy, that was a mistake. It is a fun element to throw in, though you should probably do it a bit sparingly. My basic assumption is to follow the broad alignment guidelines - chaotic evil creatures tend to spring for their advantage whenever they can get it, leading to less than reliable troops, and they often have little to no faith in their leadership. This leads to a lot of tactics being unusable or less efficient than expected.

Yakk
2008-12-02, 04:44 PM
+0:100
+1:125
+2:150
+3:175
+4:200
+5:250

Goblin Budget (L+5): 1250
L+1 encounter budget: 625

Boss Room:
Elite L+2 Goblin (300), Two L+1 guards (250), two L+0 traps (200)
= 750, L+2 encounter

Patrol: L+2 Goblin (150), 2 L+0 Goblin (200), 6 L+0 minions (150) = , L+0 encounter

Guard Post x 2: L+0 Goblin (100), 2 L+0 minions (50), Elite L+1 Trap (250), L+0 Trap (100) = 500, L+0 encounter

Total Goblins: 300 (Boss)+250 (2 Guards)+150 (Patrol leader)+400 (4 officers)+250(10 mooks) = 1350

Spread out over 4 close-to L+0 encounters. Any two encounters merging produces a tough encounter. All 4 encounters merging produces bad news for the PCs. All 4 encounters merging in the boss room gets really bad (or at a guard post) -- but those are static defenses, which the PCs can withdraw away from and the Goblins either follow (and not have traps) or let the PCs regroup.