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dspeyer
2008-12-02, 01:57 AM
RETURN OF THE GESTALT BUILD CHALLENGE XIII: LEADERS OF LEGEND

Build a character who can effectively lead an army, a movement, a people or an empire. High charisma and the leadership feat isn't enough -- they need to be effective, more effective than a simple powerful character with an army of mooks serving as backup.

Thanks to Siegel for the idea.

"Gestalt Build Challenge" General Rules

We'll follow Duke of URL's old rules plus with a few minor changes.

For numeric attributes with progressions (such as BAB and saves) first determine at each level which progression the attribute follows, then count how many levels of each progression you have, then index into the progressions, then add them together. This means that a fighter 1 / sorceror 19 // wizard 20 has 1 level of good BAB and 19 of bad, giving +1 and +9 respectively for a total BAB of +10. Similarly, a character with 20 different marshal classes gets a base fort save of +12, not +40. It's not addressed in the gestalt or multiclassing rules, but this tends to make the most reasonable builds.

Disregard the clause about multiclassing penalties. We could never figure out how to apply it anyway.

If you are using multiple templates, you may only do so in a way which makes sense with what the template means. For example, you may only use one template that represents one parent being of a different race unless your base race is one where more-than-two parent reproduction is normal.

Well known cheese (pun-pun, omnificer, etc.) is banned.

Here are Duke of URL's old rules, for those who have forgotten them. Spoilered because they're long


Unless otherwise specified in the specific challenge, the following rules and guidelines are always in effect:
Gestalt builds; 28-point buy; use any WOTC 3.5 product (including Dragon magazine) except where noted (only 3.0 products with an official upgrade to 3.5 are allowed)
Make all builds to ECL 20. However, indicate the minimum ECL the build is playable at (the level at which all LA and/or racial HD, if applicable, are accounted for) and label any level that indicates a "power break" where the build has a significant jump in power level. Provide a detailed description of how the build operates.
Any race with a listed level adjustment is allowed (no racial progressions from Savage Species, please). LA and HD each apply to one side of the gestalt; you may include LA and HD on the same side as each other, or on other sides. No LA buyoff. LA is applied before racial HD, which must be paid off before class levels on that side. Examples: LA X / RHD Y / class Z / ... // class A / ... -OR- LA X / class Y / ... // RHD A / class B / ...
Multiclass at will, but see "voting".
Up to two flaws are allowed, but see "voting".
Templates are allowed, but see "voting".
Voting: Upon the close of entries for each challenge, members of the forum may vote in-thread for the build that best represents the goals set out by the challenge. The voting criteria should consist of: Functionality: How well does the build do in its primary role as specified in the challenge? Weaknesses: Does the build have any glaring weaknesses that can be exploited? Playability: How much of the 1-20 level range can the build be played at and be effective? Creativity: Clever use of races, classes, and/or feats that may not be "typical" choices Cheese: Minimizing the number of cheese points Using flaws (1 point each) Ignoring mutliclassing penalties -- some DMs actually do enforce this in gestalt (1 point each) Single-level dips that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point each) Templates that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point per +1 LA) Attempting to use more than one PrC at any given level (1 point each) Attempting to use "dual progression" PrCs (1,000,000 points each) Over-dependence on items (1 point per indispensable item) Over-dependence on Diplomacy or Use Magic Device skills (1,000,000 points each)

monty
2008-12-02, 02:18 AM
I assume Dragonwrought kobold with Epic Leadership is out? If not, I want to submit my Evolved Necropolitan Kobold.

Keld Denar
2008-12-02, 03:19 AM
Gah, can I use 1 non-magical item from a 3.0 source that wasn't reprinted as far as I can tell? If so, I have an AWESOME build, but its significantly less potent otherwise :(

Frosty
2008-12-02, 03:39 AM
Do we get bonus points for actually having a Squire of Legend as the Cohort? :smallbiggrin:

jcsw
2008-12-02, 03:48 AM
As always, the key to using lots of mooks is making sure they survive area attacks from enemies at least 5 CRs higher than them.

Inspire Greatness + Song from the Heart + Words of Creation for +6 (or +5, if you're a bard hater) HD ftw.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-02, 04:34 AM
Is it just me or are there now more of these threads than there are responses to any of them? :smallbiggrin:

BobVosh
2008-12-02, 04:46 AM
Gah, can I use 1 non-magical item from a 3.0 source that wasn't reprinted as far as I can tell? If so, I have an AWESOME build, but its significantly less potent otherwise :(

Is it a giant horn that can be heard for miles around?

jcsw
2008-12-02, 08:35 AM
Race: Dragonwrought Kobold Ambush Drake
Stats: Cha as high as possible, followed by decent int.

Progression A: Rogue 8/Marshal 4/Crusader 8
Progression B: Sorceror 5/Shaper of Form 1/Heartfire Fanner 5/War Weaver 5/Marshal 1/Arcane Trickster 3

Open Feats are those not used as prerequisites, they are not fixed, but my suggested feats are in brackets.

Feats:
Flaw/Dragonwrought
Flaw/Song from the Heart
HD 1/Great Fortitude
HD 3/Spell Focus (Transmutation)
HD 6/Open (Leadership)
HD 9/Skill Focus (Perform(Sing))
HD 12/Neogotiator
HD 15/Enlarge Spell
HD 18/Open (Ability Enhancer)
HD 21/Open (Song of the White Raven)
HD 24/Open (Epic Leadership)
HD 27/Open (Epic Inspiration)
Marshal 1/Skill Focus (Diplomacy)

Features:
-With a base 18 Cha, +6 in level ability bonuses, a +6 item, a +5 tome, and +3 from Dragonwrought Aging, the character's charisma score is 38 for a +14 bonus!
-Sorceror Casting 17!
-Effective Initiator level of 17 in crusader, thus gaining access to all nine levels of white raven goodness, especially War Master's Charge. 7 Levels worth of Other Crusader stuff!
-Sneak Attack +5d6!
-Bardic Music of a level 9 Bard, Inspire Courage as a level 16 Bard. (Add a vest of legends for more fun)!
-Song from the Heart AND Epic Inspiration, allowing for a total of +8 inspire courage, if you add inspirational boost, a vest of legends, and a badge of valor!
-Song of the White Raven allows you to activate bardic music as a swift action while in a white raven stance!
-3 Minor and 2 +2 Major Marshal Auras known. I recommend Master of Tactics, Over the Top, and Art of War for minor. I recommend motivate urgency and motivate care for major!
-Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and other useful rogue abilities
-The whole war weaver shebang!
-Heartfire Fanner's songs allow the character to grant 3 bonus feats to 10 allies at once, among other very good features
-Epic Leadership!
-Cheese Points OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!

Recommended Items:
+6 Cloak of Cha!
+5 Tome of Cha!
Vest of Legends!
Admiral's Bicorne (Extends your bardic music and marshal auras to 100ft!)
+1 Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade of White Raven (Extends the Duration of your songs!)
Badge of Valor (I don't need to explain this do I!)

Notes:
1. Wondering how I got epic feats? I start out as a dragonwrought kobold, thus having the Dragon Subtype. My one level dip into Shaper of Form (Dragon Compendium) allows me to CHANGE MY RACE to any of the same type. The drawback? I can't pick a race with LA. A good thing that ambush drakes have no LA, eh? While they are technically LA: - in MM3, meaning they can't be used as a player race, they were given a savage class progression on the WotC Site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a), implying that this has been changed.
Net result? +7 DRAGON hit die, including bonus feats, skill points, 3 good save progressions, and full BAB. Best. One. Level. Dip. EVAR.
2. War Weaver is fun. Here's a cool usage: Share Polymorph(Ambush Drake) to all your allies. While in this form they don't get the telepathic link (EX) special, but yours is still there, and it's worded like an aura, thus all your allies are now never flanked or flat footed unless all of you are.
3. Ability Enhancer is great. All your spells which give bonuses to abilities now give +2 more.
4. Heartfire Fanner allows you to grant bonus feats to 10 of your allies! The possibilities are endless.
5. You qualify to take several teamwork benefits (Heroes of Battle). Of note: Friendly Fire evasion grants all your allies evasion from allied spells, and Superior Flank will make any creature flanked by two or more of your allies considered flanked by all allies which can attack it.

Keld Denar
2008-12-02, 10:50 AM
Is it a giant horn that can be heard for miles around?

Maybe :shiftyeyes:

And its 1d10 miles, although a minimum roll would be sufficient.

dspeyer
2008-12-02, 10:58 AM
Race: Dragonwrought Kobold Ambush Drake


This just came up in another thread, so my MMIII is already open to the Ambush Drake page. They're LA -. Not suitable for PCs.

jcsw
2008-12-02, 10:59 AM
This just came up in another thread, so my MMIII is already open to the Ambush Drake page. They're LA -. Not suitable for PCs.
Seems rather weird, then, that there's a savage progression for it. :\ Eh was an idea I got while at the barber's.
Also technically that *is* no LA, making it technically available to Shaper of Form.

The Glyphstone
2008-12-02, 12:03 PM
No, the rules for LA make a specific distinction between +0 La and -LA.

jcsw
2008-12-02, 12:35 PM
Yes, the wording is "The shaper of form cannot choose to become a member of a race with a level adjustment."

Technically, Zero is a level adjustment, while LA:- would be the closest thing linguistically to "Does not have a level adjustment"

The Glyphstone
2008-12-02, 02:36 PM
Wait, it says you can't turn into something WITH a LA? that's very different... So why Ambush Drake? Why not a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon?

Only partially sarcastic, really - if that's the interpretation you're using for the race-changing ability, why not just go for the very best of the best? Does SoF have a HD limit? It does fit the criteria after all...the best leader is the one who is so awesome that his followers don't need to actually put themselves in danger.

Eloel
2008-12-02, 02:40 PM
Wait, it says you can't turn into something WITH a LA? that's very different... So why Ambush Drake? Why not a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon?

Only partially sarcastic, really - if that's the interpretation you're using for the race-changing ability, why not just go for the very best of the best? Does SoF have a HD limit? It does fit the criteria after all...the best leader is the one who is so awesome that his followers don't need to actually put themselves in danger.

pun-pun makes the best leader?

The Glyphstone
2008-12-02, 02:45 PM
...technically yeah, but he's also banned by the rules of the challenge...

mangosta71
2008-12-02, 03:17 PM
Hmm...for the campaign I DMed in college, I rolled up a half-white dragon mind flayer telepath/thrallherd for the BBEG. Doing it gestalt instead of normal could be fun.

Mephit
2008-12-02, 04:22 PM
Heh. This reminds me of that Gestalt Orc (Crusader/Orc Warlord/Eye of Gruumsh//Favored Soul/Combat Medic/War Priest, I think) I played in my last gestalt campaign. :smallbiggrin:

He also took the Extra Followers feat, so...I think he ended up with over 500 followers in the end at level 12. Mooks weren't an issue. :smalltongue:
The campaign ended with an epic battle between my orc and his followers and the BBEG's undead horde, while the rest of the party killed the necromancer behind enemy lines.

jcsw
2008-12-02, 08:57 PM
Wait, it says you can't turn into something WITH a LA? that's very different... So why Ambush Drake? Why not a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon?

Only partially sarcastic, really - if that's the interpretation you're using for the race-changing ability, why not just go for the very best of the best? Does SoF have a HD limit? It does fit the criteria after all...the best leader is the one who is so awesome that his followers don't need to actually put themselves in danger.

Well Ambush Drakes are known to be team players while normal dragons are known to be selfish little/big ****ards.
Furthermore, most dragons have an LA while young and turning yourself into an older one would be (relatively) more dubious than turning into a monster which actually had a savage progression statted out by WotC.
Lastly, normal dragons are so cliche.

monty
2008-12-02, 09:00 PM
Unicorn RHD 4 / Wizard 5 / Sublime Chord 1 / Virtuoso 10 // LA 4 / Bard 1 / Marshal 1 / Crusader 14
Stats: Str 18 (8) Dex 14 (8) Con 22 (12) Int 14 Wis 20 (10) Cha 32 (18)

{table]Level | Class 1 | Class 2 | Feat(s)
1 | RHD 1 | LA 1 | Nymph's Kiss
2 | RHD 2 | LA 2
3 | RHD 3 | LA 3 | Ecclesiarch
4 | RHD 4 | LA 4
5 | Wizard 1 | Bard 1
6 | Wizard 2 | Marshal 1 | Leadership
7 | Wizard 3 | Crusader 1
8 | Wizard 4 | Crusader 2
9 | Wizard 5 | Crusader 3 | Song of the White Raven, Chain Spell
10 | Virtuoso 1 | Crusader 4
11 | Sublime Chord 1 | Crusader 5
12 | Virtuoso 2 | Crusader 6 | Words of Creation
13 | Virtuoso 3 | Crusader 7
14 | Virtuoso 4 | Crusader 8
15 | Virtuoso 5 | Crusader 9 | Chaos Music
16 | Virtuoso 6 | Crusader 10
17 | Virtuoso 7 | Crusader 11
18 | Virtuoso 8 | Crusader 12 | Assemble the Horde
19 | Virtuoso 9 | Crusader 13
20 | Virtuoso 10 | Crusader 14[/table]
Level 20 numbers:
HP 18d10+1d8+1d6+120
BAB +19/+14/+9/+4
Base Saves: Fort +11 Ref +9 Will +11

A bunch of people being led by a unicorn? It can't get more awesome than that. 9th level maneuvers and spells, good bardic music, and almost complete SAD on Charisma. Wizard levels can cover the miscellaneous low level spells when you need them.

jcsw
2008-12-02, 09:11 PM
Unicorn RHD 4 / Bard 1 / Wizard 5 / Sublime Chord 10 // LA 4 / Marshal 1 / Crusader 15
Stats: Str 18 (8) Dex 14 (8) Con 22 (12) Int 14 Wis 20 (10) Cha 32 (18)

{table]Level | Class 1 | Class 2 | Feat
1 | RHD 1 | LA 1 | Nymph's Kiss
2 | RHD 2 | LA 2
3 | RHD 3 | LA 3 | Ecclesiarch
4 | RHD 4 | LA 4
5 | Bard 1 | Marshal 1
6 | Wizard 1 | Crusader 1 | Leadership
7 | Wizard 2 | Crusader 2
8 | Wizard 3 | Crusader 3
9 | Wizard 4 | Crusader 4 | Song of the White Raven
10 | Wizard 5 | Crusader 5 | Chain Spell
11 | Sublime Chord 1 | Crusader 6
12 | Sublime Chord 2 | Crusader 7 | Words of Creation
13 | Sublime Chord 3 | Crusader 8
14 | Sublime Chord 4 | Crusader 9
15 | Sublime Chord 5 | Crusader 10 | Chaos Music
16 | Sublime Chord 6 | Crusader 11
17 | Sublime Chord 7 | Crusader 12
18 | Sublime Chord 8 | Crusader 13 | Assemble the Horde
19 | Sublime Chord 9 | Crusader 14
20 | Sublime Chord 10 | Crusader 15[/table]
Level 20 numbers:
HP 19d10+1d8+120
BAB +19/+14/+9/+4
Base Saves: Fort +12 Ref +9 Will +11

A bunch of people being led by a unicorn? It can't get more awesome than that. 9th level maneuvers and spells, good bardic music, and almost complete SAD on Charisma. Wizard levels can cover the miscellaneous low level spells when you need them.

Swap Sublime Chord 2-10 with Virtuoso 1-9, which can advance Sublime Chord's casting, also advances inspire courage, gets you more bardic music uses, and has better and more songs.

monty
2008-12-02, 09:23 PM
Swap Sublime Chord 2-10 with Virtuoso 1-9, which can advance Sublime Chord's casting, also advances inspire courage, gets you more bardic music uses, and has better and more songs.

Virtuoso loses a caster level though, and I can't afford to fit it in before SC. Besides, I get full Inspire Courage from SotWR.

Edit: Actually, now that I look at it, I can drop a Crusader level and still get 9th level maneuvers. I'll see how I can work it in.

ClericofPhwarrr
2008-12-02, 09:44 PM
A bunch of people being led by a unicorn? It can't get more awesome than that.

Oh yes it can. A whole bunch of people led by a giant evil crushing lion who can make them realize their full potential.

Aslan
Celestial LA 2/Dire Lion HD 8/Crusader 11-20//Crusader 1-10/War Chanter 10

Relevant feats: Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (Claws), Leadership

Once I figure out a way to work bard in there while keeping a full +20 BAB, I'll edit this post with a full build (and I wouldn't mind fitting in Aura of Courage, and/or a few other aura effects). Really, I just need to find a better way to get the "big lion" part accounted for. It looked like I could use a Sanctified Jarilith (MM2), but after I checked the 3.5 conversion, it showed LA -. :smallfrown:

I'll take suggestions, since I also would like a way for him to self-rez (ideally, at dawn of the next day). It's been a while since I've read Narnia, so anything else that needs adding, please mention.

monty
2008-12-03, 12:29 AM
...and now it's a unicorn that can sing EVEN BETTER!

Talic
2008-12-03, 12:32 AM
Oh yes it can. A whole bunch of people led by a giant evil crushing lion who can make them realize their full potential.

Aslan
Celestial LA 2/Dire Lion HD 8/Crusader 11-20//Crusader 1-10/War Chanter 10

Relevant feats: Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (Claws), Leadership

Once I figure out a way to work bard in there while keeping a full +20 BAB, I'll edit this post with a full build (and I wouldn't mind fitting in Aura of Courage, and/or a few other aura effects). Really, I just need to find a better way to get the "big lion" part accounted for. It looked like I could use a Sanctified Jarilith (MM2), but after I checked the 3.5 conversion, it showed LA -. :smallfrown:

I'll take suggestions, since I also would like a way for him to self-rez (ideally, at dawn of the next day). It's been a while since I've read Narnia, so anything else that needs adding, please mention.

Technically illegal, as lion is LA: -.

Lycanthropic lion would work though, just keep it in whale form. Contingent Rez is epic, so that's out.

Keld Denar
2008-12-03, 12:56 AM
Lycanthropic lion would work though, just keep it in whale form. Contingent Rez is epic, so that's out.

Death Pact is in Complete Divine, and works just fine!

jcsw
2008-12-03, 01:00 AM
Death Pact is in Complete Divine, and works just fine!

You could just... you know... Buy a Contingent Revivify (Comp Arcane, Spell Comp) and *say* it was the power of love/selflessness/etc.

BobVosh
2008-12-03, 01:15 AM
You could just... you know... Buy a Contingent Revivify (Comp Arcane, Spell Comp) and *say* it was the power of love/selflessness/etc.

That would be so much more epic if we start getting to the theories that darn cat was evil...like Pelor. Or is Pelor.

dspeyer
2008-12-04, 02:49 AM
Kiron the Hierarchical
Race: Kobold
Classes: crusader 1 / non-spellcasting paladin 19 // bard 1 / sorceror 6 / virtuoso 10 / loremaster 3
Alignment: NG 1 / LG 19
Stats: Cha > Int > Dex > Con > Str > Wis
Vital feats: Leadership, Draconic Mount, Reach Spell, Split Ray

How it works:
While it's probably specified somewhere that cohorts can't take leadership, there's no restriction on mounts. With 19 levels in paladin, Kiron has a young silver dragon as a mount. The dragon is ECL 18 with 16 CHA, allowing a 15 level cohort (16 with great renown, which is easy with a Virtuoso as a friend). This cohort is himself a paladin with a dragon mount, and so on down. Having all these always-good dragons in the command structure helps cut down the risk of corruption or Stalinesque devolution to tyranny. If cohorts can take leadership, then the whole thing expands exponentially, which is even more fun.

What he does for his followers:
11th level bardic music, lots of buff spells (spread around with reach/split), and a few 1st-level maneuvers like guard-glare and lead-the-attack which have no limit on how many allies they buff. Also, bard, virtuoso and to a lesser extent loremaster give lots of social interaction skills to help keep the army running smoothly.

What he does on his own:
18th level sorcerer casting (plus 1st level bard, which lets him use wands of CXW). Also full BAB and a pretty tough smite. Needs either ranged smite or weapon finesse to get around the lack of strength. Maybe Divine Might, too. Alternatively he can "share" buffs like true strike, and let his power-attacking, spiritedly-charging mount do the real damage.

About the alignment:
It's not unreasonable for a kobold who grew up in close contact with a metallic dragon clan to have a different worldview. Simlarly, one who grows up in tyranny with the knowledge of something better has little respect for law or tradition. A level of wandering and trying to do good independently impressed upon him the value of organization, and he embraced law, but a different sort than the norm for kobolds. His vision is a kobold nation where the highest laws declare universal rights and rules of succession, and the rulers are subject to those laws. A nation where kobolds of all tribes, along with as many metallic dragons as can be recruited, live together in peace and prosperity. It's a popular vision, which is why he may just have the army to make it happen.

jcsw
2008-12-04, 03:50 AM
It's not specified anywhere that cohorts can't take leadership. Just so you know.

Except in the sense that it's implied that the DM should abdicate this anyway. (And in that case, he would also abdicate the mount thing too.)

So it's either yes, both cohorts and mounts can take leadership, or no, neither can.