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View Full Version : [3.5] Catching Opponents Flat-Footed



Irreverent Fool
2008-12-02, 08:20 AM
I've recently made a factotum for a new game. We began at 2nd-level, which is an odd place to start, but that's beside the point. I'm focusing on iaijutsu, meaning I need lots of ways to catch opponents flat-footed. At third level, brains over brawn will be raising his initiative to +10. The first round of combat isn't the problem, it's after that. So far I've got him carrying a few scrolls of grease, but that's hardly ideal. I had been under the assumption that attacking an opponent that was unaware would suffice to catch them flat-footed (such as from hiding or invisibility), but alas it only seems to deny them their Dex bonus. That suffices for sneak attack, but not iaijutsu focus.

I've looked on the internet but have come up with nothing. I'm sure it's out there, but I can find no list of ways to catch opponents flat-footed. I'd appreciate any help.

So far I've got
Attacking before they have acted during an encounter
Forcing them to make balance checks
Sapphire Nightmare Blade (Tome of Battle)
Hidden Blade (Skill trick, Complete Scoundrel)

Hidden Blade doesn't work so well because I'd like him to be able to do this with a katana for later Iajutsu Master (PrC) abilities, but I'll probably have him pick it up and carry a concealed dagger for when it comes up.

obnoxious
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RMS Oceanic
2008-12-02, 08:25 AM
Doesn't feinting in combat catch them flat-footed?

Kizara
2008-12-02, 08:30 AM
Quick question: does your DM know you are using Iaijtsu in this fashion or are you taking liberties?

Honestly, if he is allowing you to use both ToB and factorum, then I don't doubt he is permissive enough to allow this too, but its wroth considering nonetheless.

Irreverent Fool
2008-12-02, 08:32 AM
Doesn't feinting in combat catch them flat-footed?

Nope. Once again, it only denies them their Dex bonus. They're effectively flat-footed. Works fine for rogues, not for iaijutsu focus.


Quick question: does your DM know you are using Iaijtsu in this fashion or are you taking liberties?

Honestly, if he is allowing you to use both ToB and factorum, then I don't doubt he is permissive enough to allow this too, but its wroth considering nonetheless.

The DM is quite aware of what I'm pulling. Don't worry, he's prepared. The first dungeon already claimed two of our party and we've only gotten to the first corridor intersection. :smallbiggrin: What do you mean 'in this fashion'?

obnoxious
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RebelRogue
2008-12-02, 08:58 AM
Being Flatfooted and denied a Dex bonus are two slightly different things, as have been pointed out. Yes, RAW Grease treats people as Flatfooted unless they have at least 5 ranks in Balance, but generally I'm not sure Wizards always thought out the difference between the wordings.

Irreverent Fool
2008-12-02, 09:30 AM
Being Flatfooted and denied a Dex bonus are two slightly different things, as have been pointed out. Yes, RAW Grease treats people as Flatfooted unless they have at least 5 ranks in Balance, but generally I'm not sure Wizards always thought out the difference between the wordings.

This seems to be true for the earlier stuff, but I think later on they tried to differentiate. Maybe not. Generally it doesn't matter, but since I'm potentially committing what I believe has been referred to as "an unholy merging of Tome of Battle, 3.0, and 3.5 material," I've actually got to specifically make these opponents flat-footed instead of just denying them their Dex bonus.

Please don't tell me that meager sampling that I've found so far is all there is!

obnoxious
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Person_Man
2008-12-02, 10:08 AM
Haberdash the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633)

There are several Skill Tricks that make your enemy Flat Footed. You can also take Confound the Big Folk (Races of Stone) which works on enemies 2 sizes larger then you, and use Reduce Person or Alter Self or Compression to get smaller. Be sure to buy a Gnomish Quickrazor (also Races of Stone) which can be drawn and sheathed as a free action, so you don't have to constantly draw and drop weapons.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-02, 10:16 AM
The feat Flick of the Wrist (CW) looks like exactly what you're looking for, though it only works once per opponent in any given encounter.

Grease is indeed the easiest way to keep opponents flat-footed, unless they have the Balance ranks. WotC has confirmed that once they've had to save vs Grease, they're considered to be balancing as per the balance skill until they move off of it.

jcsw
2008-12-02, 10:30 AM
Well for some reason, Invisibility doesn't actually grant flat-footed-ness. (Like, wtf? That's a more reasonable case than Balance Checks >.<)

Spells:
Distract Assailant, Wiz/Sorc 1, Spell Comp.

Feats:
Flick of the Wrist, Complete Warrior (Light Weapons only)
Giantbane (Tactical), Complete Warrior (Foe must be two sizes larger, must succeed on several other (pretty difficult) requirements to render foe flat-footed)
Raptor School (Tactical), Complete Warrior, (Feint using BAB, but actually says "Flat-footed" instead of "denied dex bonus", need to wear a cloak)
Mercurial Strike, Dragon 310, (If your opponent provokes an AoO while you are not currently armed, you can quickdraw and hit them flat-footed.)
Exhausting Defense (Tactical), Dragon 345, (Requires a fatigued/exhausted opponent, which can be done (very inefficiently) with the other tactical options)

Amazing what a Ctrl+F on Crystalkeep will do...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-03, 01:30 AM
Why are you using Scrolls instead of Wands? Save your money for what matters.

Irreverent Fool
2008-12-08, 05:55 AM
Why are you using Scrolls instead of Wands? Save your money for what matters.

Because I had limited gold remaining and couldn't afford a wand.

obnoxious
sig

SoD
2008-12-08, 07:04 AM
I've recently made a factotum for a new game. We began at 2nd-level, which is an odd place to start, but that's beside the point. I'm focusing on iaijutsu, meaning I need lots of ways to catch opponents flat-footed. At third level, brains over brawn will be raising his initiative to +10. The first round of combat isn't the problem, it's after that. So far I've got him carrying a few scrolls of grease, but that's hardly ideal. I had been under the assumption that attacking an opponent that was unaware would suffice to catch them flat-footed (such as from hiding or invisibility), but alas it only seems to deny them their Dex bonus. That suffices for sneak attack, but not iaijutsu focus.

I've looked on the internet but have come up with nothing. I'm sure it's out there, but I can find no list of ways to catch opponents flat-footed. I'd appreciate any help.

So far I've got
Attacking before they have acted during an encounter
Forcing them to make balance checks
Sapphire Nightmare Blade (Tome of Battle)
Hidden Blade (Skill trick, Complete Scoundrel)

Hidden Blade doesn't work so well because I'd like him to be able to do this with a katana for later Iajutsu Master (PrC) abilities, but I'll probably have him pick it up and carry a concealed dagger for when it comes up.

obnoxious
sig

My advice? Don't. Unless you're playing group is insanely overpowered. A guy in my group has taken Iajitsu Focus as a Warblade with Saphire Nightmare Blade. Concentration check to make opposition flat footed, combined with punishing stance, and power iajitsu means, as a first level character, he can kill a ogre before it gets a chance to attack him.

Anything which'll be a fair fight for you will either; be killed by you in one round, or; kill you in one round. You'll make anyone else in your party who is melee redundant, and screw your DM's planned encounters, unless he house rules Iajitsu Focus to make it less powerful. It wasn't updated to 3.5 for a reason.

So, unless you want to be a bastard, making your DM scale up everything to where a single encounter equals TPK in one round, simple; don't.

Kizara
2008-12-08, 08:07 AM
My advice? Don't. Unless you're playing group is insanely overpowered. A guy in my group has taken Iajitsu Focus as a Warblade with Saphire Nightmare Blade. Concentration check to make opposition flat footed, combined with punishing stance, and power iajitsu means, as a first level character, he can kill a ogre before it gets a chance to attack him.

Anything which'll be a fair fight for you will either; be killed by you in one round, or; kill you in one round. You'll make anyone else in your party who is melee redundant, and screw your DM's planned encounters, unless he house rules Iajitsu Focus to make it less powerful. It wasn't updated to 3.5 for a reason.

So, unless you want to be a bastard, making your DM scale up everything to where a single encounter equals TPK in one round, simple; don't.

This is some good advice.

But you mentioned that you are running a high-power, high-risk game (I run the same kind, so I know where you are comming from), maybe you should elaborate on what the rest of the party is?

I mean, if your friends are a cheesed crusader, a CoDzilla and batman, you won't really be that imba.