bit confused... melee build question

[koldstare]

I was on here recently getting help with a melee build I was building and was wondering about the knockdown/improved trip abilities.

Knockdown states you get a free trip attempt when you deal >10pts of damage

Improved trip states you get a free attack when you succeed on a trip attempt.
So does the first attack work like this?
Attack, if greater than 10 damage trip, if sucsessful attack.
Do you get 2 attacks for the price of one?

[Keld Denar]

Errr, depending on what you go by. Knockdown origionally appeared in the book Sword and Fist. The FAQ for S&F came out and specified that NO, you don't get a followup attack on a trip made with Knockdown. Basically all Knockdown does is move the trip to after the attack taking a lot of the risk out of it.

The version of Knockdown found in the SRD online doesn't have this stipulation, but it should. I blame blatent copy/paste syndrome.

[Darrin]

Errr, depending on what you go by. Knockdown origionally appeared in the book Sword and Fist. The FAQ for S&F came out and specified that NO, you don't get a followup attack on a trip made with Knockdown. Basically all Knockdown does is move the trip to after the attack taking a lot of the risk out of it.

The version of Knockdown found in the SRD online doesn't have this stipulation, but it should. I blame blatent copy/paste syndrome.

It's confusing, complicated by the fact that whoever wrote the FAQ (which is not RAW) for Sword & Fist was not writing errata (even though it was released as errata), and may not have understood the question or the rules, because his answer doesn't parse all that clearly.



Q. If I use the Knock-Down feat to trip an opponent, can I get a free attack from my Improved Trip feat?

A. Nope. You have to use an attack to trip an opponent and then get an attack. You get a free action to trip your opponent with this feat (ie - you haven't given up an attack to trip them, you have already taken it, so you do not get another one).


Whoever wrote the FAQ entry may be confused about when you can trip and how most free attacks granted by special conditions work (such as cleave) or the rules may have changed in how you treat trip attacks in 3.5. In any case, when the Knockdown feat was added to the SRD, it was copied exactly from Sword & Fist, and the wording was not changed to clear up the confusion from the FAQ. There are several interpretations on how Knockdown works:

1) The Sword & Fist FAQ/errata is still in effect. You cannot attack, trip, and get a second attack. (I believe most GITP forum DMs stick with this option, under the philosophy that "free attacks = subject to abuse".)

2) The SRD was published after the FAQ/errata and supercedes it. Since the FAQ ruling was not included or acknowledged, it is no longer in effect. You can attack, trip, and get a second attack.

3) Whoever put Knockdown in the SRD wasn't aware of the FAQ/errata, and didn't bother to clarify the text. Conflicting rulings, custserv is useless - judgment call by DM.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Knockdown itself is the problem, really. A feat that gives you a free trip attempt after every attack? (Assuming you're a fighter with at least low-average damage output.) Yeah, that's going to get abused no matter what.

[Stupendous_Man]

Knockdown itself is the problem, really. A feat that gives you a free trip attempt after every attack? (Assuming you're a fighter with at least low-average damage output.) Yeah, that's going to get abused no matter what.

Less useful against four legged creatures, larger creatures, ghosts....

[Darrin]

Knockdown itself is the problem, really. A feat that gives you a free trip attempt after every attack? (Assuming you're a fighter with at least low-average damage output.) Yeah, that's going to get abused no matter what.

I'm not sure it's any more abusable than Cleave, Snap Kick, Karmic Strike, or Haste. You can only successfully trip an opponent once, after all. Not all that effective against very large opponents, multiple legs, oozes, or incorporeal... not sure about flying.

A feat chain that fighters can abuse to do more melee damage? About frackin' time, I say.

[Keld Denar]

A feat chain that fighters can abuse to do more melee damage? About frackin' time, I say.

Where were you when they printed Power Attack > Improved Bullrush > Shock Trooper ~4 years ago? That feat chain results in WAY more damage than Combat Expertese (almost worthless) > Improved Trip (conditionally worthless) > Knockdown (only saving grace) under even the most abusive reading of the rules.

[koldstare]

So basically, ask the DM which interpretation of the rules he uses?

[Fax Celestis]

Less useful against four legged creatures, larger creatures, ghosts....

Very useful against flyers. Tripped flyers "stall" and fall at a rate of 320' a round.

[Darrin]

Where were you when they printed Power Attack > Improved Bullrush > Shock Trooper ~4 years ago? That feat chain results in WAY more damage than Combat Expertese (almost worthless) > Improved Trip (conditionally worthless) > Knockdown (only saving grace) under even the most abusive reading of the rules.

In a Batman-centric game, melee damage is chrome-plated used dental floss: very shiny, but usually worthless. Power Attack multipliers are meaningless against a Flying Invisible Ethereal Celerity Maximize/Split/Twin/Repeat Timestop Solid Acid Fog Enervation spellcaster.

[Epinephrine]

In a Batman-centric game, melee damage is chrome-plated used dental floss: very shiny, but usually worthless. Power Attack multipliers are meaningless against a Flying Invisible Ethereal Celerity Maximize/Split/Twin/Repeat Timestop Solid Acid Fog Enervation spellcaster.


Ok, but for all those games in which the above monstrosity isn't permitted to raise its ugly head, melee damage can be fun.

[monty]

In a Batman-centric game, melee damage is chrome-plated used dental floss: very shiny, but usually worthless. Power Attack multipliers are meaningless against a Flying Invisible Ethereal Celerity Maximize/Split/Twin/Repeat Timestop Solid Acid Fog Enervation spellcaster.

Are there really people who play like that regularly?

[Keld Denar]

In a Batman-centric game, melee damage is chrome-plated used dental floss: very shiny, but usually worthless. Power Attack multipliers are meaningless against a Flying Invisible Ethereal Celerity Maximize/Split/Twin/Repeat Timestop Solid Acid Fog Enervation spellcaster.

Well, when my Flying Invisible Ethereal Celerity Maximize/Split/Twin/Repeat Timestop Solid Acid Fog Enervation spellcaster shuts down your Flying Invisible Ethereal Celerity Maximize/Split/Twin/Repeat Timestop Solid Acid Fog Enervation spellcaster, its best that someone is potent enough to dispatch him in his moment of vulnerability before he raises his shields again. Thats why an Orthadox Batman brings friends along. Only followers of Reformed Batmanism think that the wizard should do it all himself all the time.