Being the 12th level Batman

[Twilight Jack]

I'm looking for ideas on a 12th level Wizard build for a fairly short-term game that we're running as a break from the game I'm DMing.

The DM for this game plays the Wizard in our current long-term campaign, and has spent no small amount of time complaining about how he feels underpowered, and that Wizards are overrated. The PCs are cruising around 7th level currently and his problem is that his Wizard is an Evocation specialist with a truly crappy selection of Spells and Feats. I've tried telling him this, but he's not listening, so I'm hoping to demonstrate just how effective a Wizard can be.

So I'm building a Wizard, and my problem is that there are too many awesome options out there and I'm trying to whittle it down to what is possible at 12th level.

The Tome of Magic is outlawed, because the DM doesn't have that book and doesn't want to learn the rules, but everything else is pretty much A-OK.

So far, I'm working with a Human Wizard 5/Incantrix 7 build. I'm looking for a coherent look at Feat, Spell, and Item selection to bring the whole thing together. If you think there's a better class breakdown, I'd be willing to reconsider that as well.

What do the residents of the Playground suggest?

[Stupendous_Man]

Jinkies! A clue! :smalltongue:

I keep these tucked away in bookmarks....

*searches*

Treantmonk's Wizard Guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0)

TLN's 'Being Batman' (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500)

Solo's Sorceror Guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0)

Take a good, long look at Treantmonk's Guide.

[Twilight Jack]

Take a good, long look at Treantmonk's Guide.

Thanks. I hadn't seen Treantmonk's Guide before, although I've pored over LogicNinja's on more than one occasion.

[Stupendous_Man]

Thanks. I hadn't seen Treantmonk's Guide before, although I've pored over LogicNinja's on more than one occasion.

He actually has suggested spell lists for certain levels of wizard.

[Keld Denar]

This thread needs more Solid Fog.

Best Spell Ever.

Voted "Most Likely to Divide and Conquer" 8 years running.

Since you are 12th level, you also get 6th level spells. Take a looksie at Solid Fog's big angry brother, Freezing Fog, now with 50% more Grease.

Other spells to consider include Greater Magic Weapon and Haste as buffs and Dimension Door or Teleport as "melee combatant delivery service".

[Yukitsu]

Don't leave out acid fog! Or their younger half cousin, sleet storm!

[Twilight Jack]

This thread needs more Solid Fog.

Best Spell Ever.

Voted "Most Likely to Divide and Conquer" 8 years running.

Since you are 12th level, you also get 6th level spells. Take a looksie at Solid Fog's big angry brother, Freezing Fog, now with 50% more Grease.

Other spells to consider include Greater Magic Weapon and Haste as buffs and Dimension Door or Teleport as "melee combatant delivery service".

Oh, believe me, my friend. I'm way ahead of you on the selection of these spells. :smallbiggrin:

More than anything else, I'm looking for a coherent collection of feats for maximum utility at that level. Magic item purchase is important as well.

Also, in reading through various wizard guidebooks, I'm beginning to question my class selection. Treantmonk has almost sold me on focused specialists.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, I actually wouldn't go Incantrix. Personally, it leaves me feeling....not so fresh, in a not so fresh kind of way...

Hmmmm, what to build...

Human Focused Conjourer3/Master Specialist2/Divine Oracle2/Loremaster3/FateSpinner2

Ban Evocation, Enchantment, and Abjuration
Use the Abrupt Jaunt ACF found in the PHBII

1 Spell Focus: Conjouration
1 B Cloudy Conjouration
1 B Scribe Scroll
3 Skill Focus: Knowledge(Religion)
5 B Skill Focus: Spellcraft
6 Extend Spell
8 B Quicken Spell (Loremaster)
9 Spell Focus: Necromancy or Transmutation
12 Empower Spell or Split Ray

This leaves you ready to take 1 more level of Fatespinner before diving into Archmage. You can still take that 4th level of Fatespinner at some point, possibly to delay a couple levels of Archmage to get a 9th level SLA. Every time you cast a Conjouration, you get a mini cloud that lasts for 1 turn. Its pretty much awesome, and can be used to block line of effect from you to a bad guy looking to snipe you. Abrupt Jaunt keeps you out of harms way well enough. Loremaster gives you UMD as a class skill. Dump almost all of your skill points for those 3 levels into this skill. Its THAT good. Especially if you buy a Bead of Karma (part of a Strand of Prayer Beads). The bead will make your buffs like Greater Magic Weapon cast as level 16, which nets you +4 bonus on all your melee friends weapons.

For spells, take lots of clouds, a couple save/die spells for each save and some mobility/buffage. Quickened Benign Transposition is pretty much amazing for moving your party fighter or rogue into full attack range. You can move up to a foe, quicken BT yourself and your fighter, and STILL cast a spell like Solid Fog or Evards or similar to hamper your opponents. My friend plays a mage and swears by his Dimension Door, claiming its the highest damage spell he knows, since he can Dim Door the party's fighter and rogue into full attack position and watch them decimate whatevers in front of them.

Oh, and for gear, check out MIC. A Circlet of Rapid Casting of Intelect is a pretty hot item. Retails at about 46,000 for the +6 version, about the best item you can buy as a wizard. Action economy is king at that level.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Also, in reading through various wizard guidebooks, I'm beginning to question my class selection. Treantmonk has almost sold me on focused specialists.

I've done a focused specialist conjurer at level 6, and it was great. I nabbed a wand or two of Benign Transposition (a really cheap way to make sure you contribute every round even if you don't want to use more spells), and numerous level 1 Pearls of Power. All day strong, all day long.

And since we got almost no treasure after chargen, I was really glad to have those extra spells. Abjuration is overrated until the highest levels; let someone else Dispel (I've very rarely seen it needed). Enchantment and Evocation are easily enough ignored too.

[ericgrau]

The DM for this game plays the Wizard in our current long-term campaign, and has spent no small amount of time complaining about how he feels underpowered, and that Wizards are overrated.

More common IRL than you'd think. Especially when the player is inexperienced, which is a lot more people than will admit to it. Or even if he's simply not a powergamer the wizzy's power advantage in real games isn't nearly as big as it is in the internet forums. Don't dis the evoker either. Evocation is more like 2nd best, and being second doesn't mean being last.

Anyway, what kind of tips would you need? A good spell selection should be all you really need; everything else is just icing. If you want the "Batman" style then that means mostly control spells, possibly with a sprinkling of mass-buffs, long term buffs and, yes, direct damage too. Save utility spells for scrolls only, and short duration single target buffs for limited out of combat use (only when you have a buffing round or so). During combat doing almost anything is better than single-target buffing.

EDIT: Read the thread all the way through, finally. Okay, looks like he already does have spell selection down. That leaves icing. Okay, for gear don't underestimate having lots of low level utility scrolls for odd situations. Anything that you can't use every day but will use some day goes on a scroll. Boost your con and int, naturally. Get a ring of protection +1, for a cheap point of AC, and maybe a dusty rose prism ioun stone of you can spare the gold. Stick with masterwork weaponry and at most a +1 or +2 cloak of resistance; higher bonuses there aren't big enough to be worth the coin. Other spell stuff like pearls of power (usually level 1), wands (usually low level) or staffs may or may not be useful depending on what you want to cast. I also like to combine shrink item with random items from the PHB, on a 12 day cycle to allow 12 items per daily spell slot. Just don't store pointy items in places that will make you regret walking into an antimagic field.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Anyway, what kind of tips would you need? A good spell selection should be all you really need; everything else is just icing. If you want the "Batman" style then that means mostly control spells, possibly with a sprinkling of mass-buffs, long term buffs and, yes, direct damage too. Save utility spells for scrolls only, and short duration single target buffs for limited out of combat use (only when you have a buffing round or so).

Lots of debuffs too--it's what a wizard excels at more than anyone else. As long as you can trust your DM not to fudge saves; if not, then buffs and control. Keep common utility spells (Fly, etc) on hand; only the more esoteric ones need scrolls. A couple of direct damage scrolls for special situations (swarms, etc) are handy too.

[Twilight Jack]

Keld, why Knowledge (religion)?

[Keld Denar]

Keld, why Knowledge (religion)?

Divine Oracle has a prereq of SF:K(R). Loremaster has a prereq of SF:K(Any). Religion is a subset of Any, so it meets both classes prereqs. Then, with either your first or 2nd secret, you recover a bonus feat from Loremaster. Thus, you aren't really PAYING a feat for entry into both PrCs, you are investing a feat that you'll ultimately recover, along with some pretty snazzy fringe benefits, like the Oracle Domain, Presence Sense (evasion+), and I'd personally pick the +2 fort save secret. You already have enough 1st and 2nd level spell slots, and the +1 AC won't really help by that point. The +1 to hit might be good if you use a lot of Rays and Orbs, but personally I like not dying when I get hit by a returned fire Finger of Death.

[Twilight Jack]

Divine Oracle has a prereq of SF:K(R). Loremaster has a prereq of SF:K(Any). Religion is a subset of Any, so it meets both classes prereqs. Then, with either your first or 2nd secret, you recover a bonus feat from Loremaster. Thus, you aren't really PAYING a feat for entry into both PrCs, you are investing a feat that you'll ultimately recover, along with some pretty snazzy fringe benefits, like the Oracle Domain, Presence Sense (evasion+), and I'd personally pick the +2 fort save secret. You already have enough 1st and 2nd level spell slots, and the +1 AC won't really help by that point. The +1 to hit might be good if you use a lot of Rays and Orbs, but personally I like not dying when I get hit by a returned fire Finger of Death.

Got you. I hadn't been paying attention to the divine oracle part of the build.

[Twilight Jack]

Any other build ideas? The divine oracle build from Keld is very cool, but I'm not sure it fits the flavor I was going for.

[Keld Denar]

Really, for a true Batman wizard, Conjourers do it best. Unfortunately for Conjouration, most of the Esotericas given to them suck. Much better for Illusionists or Abjurers.

How about a non-focused specialist Abjurer, into Master Specialist, then into Initiate of the 7fold Veils?

Abjurer3/MS9 is pretty strong, or Abjurer3/MS7/Iot7V2. I'm pretty sure that you have to be at least 10th level to take your first level in Iot7V, but I could be wrong. If so, take as many as possible before 12. Ban Evocation and Enchantment.

Alternatively, a Gnome Focused Specialist Illusionist3/MS4/Shadowcraft Mage5 would be pretty killer (heh, Killer Gnome, heh!). Feats are SF:Illusion, Heighten Spell, Earth Magic, Earth Spell, and MM School Focus: Illusion. Memorize all of your illusion slots as Heightened Silent Images, and uses the ScM's Shadow Illusion to turn them into very real conjourations or evocations. Ban Evocation, Enchantment, and Abjuration.

Google Killer Gnome, the Shadowcraft Mage handbook. Its in a thread over on the CharOp forums, for the exact mechanics to make it work. Lots more book keeping than your standard wizard, but pretty effective, especially with lots of sourcebook materials to grab cool spells (Entomb from Frostburn is AMAZING once you take out the expensive gp component).

[Eldariel]

The great thing about IoTSV is that it allows you to live while still being lazy (a luxury not normally given to Wizards), and that Master Specialist gets you all the prerequisites. The archetypal build is indeed Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 6/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Master Specialist 4 (although you could pick two more Wizard-levels for Spontaneous Divination, some Archmage levels for the usual fun, etc.).

Spontaneous Divination is actually fairly important though, so going Wizard 5/Master Specialist 4 is a decent idea if not going Epic; Abjuration offers some relatively crappy spells mostly and having the means to turn them into Divination-spells on command really increases the value of those extra slots. This also makes Archmage alluring - you don't really lose much by skipping one or two of your specialist slots for Archmage. Of course, you do lose out on some handy Master Specialist-abilities; Abjuration gets the nice Dispel-bonus over the levels along with CL increase (which also boosts your Dispelling), Mettle and ultimately, the ability to cast Anti-Magic Field (and I suppose some other spells, but none of them are quite as fun in this function) as a touch-spell with no save on an opponent (with those Archmage/Initiate-levels, you can easily ensure you aren't affected even while casting it as a real touch; let alone Arcane Reaching it - as said, Initiate is immune to Anti-Magic Fields as his Veils block the Line of Effect).

It's really "lol" to AMF opposing spellcasters; as long as you can make the touch attack, they're out (of course, you need a Line of Effect, which might be non-trivial to acquire). Also, AMFing opposing melee pretty much ensures they'll never be able to reach you. Basically, denying your opponent Magic while retaining your own is just "game over" in D&D.

[Twilight Jack]

Really, for a true Batman wizard, Conjourers do it best. Unfortunately for Conjouration, most of the Esotericas given to them suck. Much better for Illusionists or Abjurers.

How about a non-focused specialist Abjurer, into Master Specialist, then into Initiate of the 7fold Veils?

Abjurer3/MS9 is pretty strong, or Abjurer3/MS7/Iot7V2. I'm pretty sure that you have to be at least 10th level to take your first level in Iot7V, but I could be wrong. If so, take as many as possible before 12. Ban Evocation and Enchantment.

Alternatively, a Gnome Focused Specialist Illusionist3/MS4/Shadowcraft Mage5 would be pretty killer (heh, Killer Gnome, heh!). Feats are SF:Illusion, Heighten Spell, Earth Magic, Earth Spell, and MM School Focus: Illusion. Memorize all of your illusion slots as Heightened Silent Images, and uses the ScM's Shadow Illusion to turn them into very real conjourations or evocations. Ban Evocation, Enchantment, and Abjuration.

Google Killer Gnome, the Shadowcraft Mage handbook. Its in a thread over on the CharOp forums, for the exact mechanics to make it work. Lots more book keeping than your standard wizard, but pretty effective, especially with lots of sourcebook materials to grab cool spells (Entomb from Frostburn is AMAZING once you take out the expensive gp component).

I know all about the Killer Gnome build. Mechanically, it's awesome, but it's a little too min/maxed for my taste. I'm all for optimization, but I try to shy away from the super-synergized overkill.

[Keld Denar]

ScM isn't that OP at mid levels. At level 12, you have 6th level spells. Using Earth Spell and Heighten, you are pumping a 1st level Silent Image up to 7th level, increasing your CL by 6. This means you cast a 6th level spell, say, Chain Lightning, at CL18. Well, CL caps at 15 dice, so really you are doing 15d6, which is about 52 damage. And that is only like, 70-80% real, meaning that if they make the will save, they only take about 40 damage, or 20 on a successful reflex save. Regardless, its only damage. There are a few rather dirty tricks you CAN do, especially with cloud spells and a pair of Spellguard Rings, but even those aren't much more than a well seasoned Conjourer could pull out. In the end, ScMs tend to lean more toward blasters than typical Batman-esque support heros.

At mid levels, ScM is almost more work than fun, since you have to track ALL of the possible spells you can cast, figure out which ones go in which slots, and determine how real they really are.

[Mushroom Ninja]

If your DM won't strangle you for doing this, you could be a Conjurer with the variant out of PHBII that lets you teleport as an instant action (I think it's called immediate magic, but I'm not sure)

[Keld Denar]

If your DM won't strangle you for doing this, you could be a Conjurer with the variant out of PHBII that lets you teleport as an instant action (I think it's called immediate magic, but I'm not sure)

Its called Abrupt Jaunt, one of the Immediate Magic ACFs in the PHBII, and I already suggested it in my first build.


Human Focused Conjourer3/Master Specialist2/Divine Oracle2/Loremaster3/FateSpinner2

Ban Evocation, Enchantment, and Abjuration
Use the Abrupt Jaunt ACF found in the PHBII


Its REALLY good though. +Int time per day, avoid 1 full attack. Well, thats what it SHOULD say. So good...

[Eldariel]

Its REALLY good though. +Int time per day, avoid 1 full attack. Well, thats what it SHOULD say. So good...

Avoid full attack? Que? More like Avoid Any F*cking Effect Ever That Requires a Die Roll Or Has A Set Area of Effect. Enervation? Noo problem! Scorching Ray? Wops, you missed! Solid Fog? Hah. And that's without even going to all the fun stuff you can do in an environment where the Jaunt allows blocking Line of Sight/Effect. Finger of Death? Hold on, I have a response...

[Keld Denar]

Unless you have some kind of cover you can duck around, nothing says the caster can't retarget you a little more to one side than before. Immediate actions interupt the action. Thus, BBEG Wizard announces that he is casting Enervation on you and picks up his d20. You respond by bouncing 10' back and to the right. He still sees you, rolls his attack, and you take 1d4 negative levels and LIKE it. And even if you did blink around a wall, since you interupted his action, he could easily just shoot it at someone else, which is probably for the better in the long run (for you at least!).

[Yukitsu]

In theory, you can do the jaunt at any point, not just before he has fired.

[Eldariel]

Indeed. You move when the ray is en route.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Indeed. You move when the ray is en route.

Wow. It would be brokenly good even if you couldn't doge rays with it. I wonder how that one slipped by WotC playtesting. Probably the same way everything else does...

[Keld Denar]

Indeed. You move when the ray is en route.

Thats just stupid. Does that mean that if an ogre charges you and attacks, you can choose to Jaunt away after the attack has been rolled and its determined that his club hits you? No, if you want to blink away, you have to do it after the attack is declared against you, but before the actual die is rolled. Otherwise its stupid. Think about it, not even 9th level spells give you that kind of protection the way you are infering, and a level 1 grey elf wizard could do it 5 times a day! I'm all about trying to keep my RAW straight, and not let RAI interfere, but there has to be something that says you can't use an immediate action AFTER a result is been decided, unless specifically noted (like with Close Wounds). To say otherwise is a stupidly abusive reading of it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Thats just stupid. Does that mean that if an ogre charges you and attacks, you can choose to Jaunt away after the attack has been rolled and its determined that his club hits you? No, if you want to blink away, you have to do it after the attack is declared against you, but before the actual die is rolled. Otherwise its stupid. Think about it, not even 9th level spells give you that kind of protection the way you are infering, and a level 1 grey elf wizard could do it 5 times a day! I'm all about trying to keep my RAW straight, and not let RAI interfere, but there has to be something that says you can't use an immediate action AFTER a result is been decided, unless specifically noted (like with Close Wounds). To say otherwise is a stupidly abusive reading of it.The Ogre Charges you.
I Jaunt out of the path of his charge. He can't turn while en route, right?
No, you're safe. *grumble grumble*
*rounds pass*
The Wizard Disintegrates you.
I Jaunt out of the path of his Ray. He can't change his target after shooting, right?
No, you're safe. *grumble grumble GRUMBLE*

[Keld Denar]

Dude, thats just blatent abuse of the fact that D&D doesn't have very concrete rules for interupting action like...oh, say Magic: The Gathering. M:TG has rules about exactly where you can cast interupts, what actions you can interupts, who has priority to cast, and who's interupts get resolved first. D&D does not.

So, you Jaunt out of the way of a charging ogre, does the ogre keep moving? What if you couldn't Jaunt far enough and his path puts you back within melee reach? Can he still smack you just as he would have it you hadn't Jaunted away?

Same with spell casting. At what part of the spell casting do you know that the caster is targeting you? How long does it take the beam, once created, to reach its target? Is there any way you can react to that?

The rules are unclear, and if you try to abuse this already strong ability, you are likely to get hit by a harsh DM banstick, or something so big you can't blink away from it.

I'd ask custserve, but I hear they aren't really answering 3.5 questions anymore. Lame IMO.

[Blood_Lord]

The rules are unclear, and if you try to abuse this already strong ability, you are likely to get hit by a harsh DM banstick, or something so big you can't blink away from it.

I'd ask custserve, but I hear they aren't really answering 3.5 questions anymore. Lame IMO.

You are making the assumption that this ability hasn't been asked about before. But it's not new, it's been asked about many times, and every time I've heard the response it has been: Yeah, you can dodge stuff. Sucks to people targeting you.

Do you think the "Wings of Cover" spell, an immediate interrupt that gives you full cover just forces them to attack someone else? Or does it actually negate an action by your opponents?

See, it's really not worth a slot if it doesn't.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, but at what point can you cast Wings of Cover? When the caster starts casting? When you find out hes targetting you? After he targets you, but before the spell is completed? As the spell is completed and the ray is fired? Before or after the attack roll is made? After its confirmed to hit you, but before damage is rolled? After you find out that its enough damage to drop you? I mean, where does it stop? There has to be some kind of guide to what actions can be interupted, and what can't.

Personally, I'd say that after you ID the spell with a spellcraft check, as part of that check, you could tell who or where it was being targeted. Then you'd have a chance to react. After you react, the persons action would resolve and they could retarget if they wish, or interupt the spell. In no way should the ability to interupt come after the dice have been rolled and determined to hit (or miss).

Same with attacks. If there is an ogre adjacent to you, and he goes to swing at you, but you blink away, he could chose to attack someone else in his reach, or take a 5' step and attack, or take a move action, since those are all actions he could have taken if he hadn't started to swing at you. At no time should you be allowed to move after its been determined that his attack hit you, or such similar to the spell caster above.

Thats how I would rule it as a DM, want it to be ruled as a player, and think is most fair. I acknowledge that it is kind of undefined, so thats what I would do to clarify it.

[Twilight Jack]

Okay, Keld, so far I'm liking your focused conjurer build the best, but I'm not digging on Divine Oracle. It just doesn't fit the flavor of the character I'm envisioning.

Is there another Prestige Class I should be plugging into it's place or does the build need it to qualify for Loremaster at that level?

[Keld Denar]

You could just take plain old wizard levels. Mechanically, DO is the stronger choice. It has a larger HD, Evasion, expands your spell list, and you already meet the prereqs for it on your way to Loremaster. Flavorwise, its just another way of expressing your thirst to know EVERYTHING. Sometimes you have to tap the divine to get that knowledge, and this guy will leave no stone unturned. Boccob would be a logical choice, but feel free to pick any god you want, they don't have to have the Oracle domain in their portfolio. Hell, Vecna would be a decent choice even, since he is the keeper of all secrets. Evil as all hell, but you gotta admit, the guy knows the down low. If you want someone with a bit more flare, Joramy in the Greyhawk setting is decent. She's all about argueing with people, and you have a better chance of winning an arguement if you are the most well informed. I could go on for days.

What exactly is it that you don't like about DO's flavor that you don't already get from Loremaster?

[Twilight Jack]

You could just take plain old wizard levels. Mechanically, DO is the stronger choice. It has a larger HD, Evasion, expands your spell list, and you already meet the prereqs for it on your way to Loremaster. Flavorwise, its just another way of expressing your thirst to know EVERYTHING. Sometimes you have to tap the divine to get that knowledge, and this guy will leave no stone unturned. Boccob would be a logical choice, but feel free to pick any god you want, they don't have to have the Oracle domain in their portfolio. Hell, Vecna would be a decent choice even, since he is the keeper of all secrets. Evil as all hell, but you gotta admit, the guy knows the down low. If you want someone with a bit more flare, Joramy in the Greyhawk setting is decent. She's all about argueing with people, and you have a better chance of winning an arguement if you are the most well informed. I could go on for days.

What exactly is it that you don't like about DO's flavor that you don't already get from Loremaster?

Essentially, it's the whole piety flavor, but I'm beginning to see ways around it. I'm going to go back and read over it a little more and see if I can reconcile my character idea with the class.

[Keld Denar]

Essentially, it's the whole piety flavor, but I'm beginning to see ways around it. I'm going to go back and read over it a little more and see if I can reconcile my character idea with the class.

So pick a god who doesn't approve of slobbering piety. Joramy, like I mentioned, would rather you get into a heated arguement with someone, or burn something down, or incite something, than sit in a pew reciting Hail Joramy over and over until you choak.

[Twilight Jack]

How does the DO expand your spell list, it gives you the Oracle domain, but specifically says that you can prepare the spells on the list as domain spells, which a wizard does not have. So I'm getting the +2 CL to my divinations, but that's it. The second level gives me evasion, which is cool, but if I just took two more levels of wizard instead, I could get the Domain Granted Power in place of my bonus feat at 5th level, and pick a Domain with more oomph than +2 CL to Divinations. Alternately, I could take Spontaneous Divination, which enhances my versatility at all levels.

If I really thought that the RAW gave me the extra spells, I'd go for it (it seems that's your reading), but I don't think it's meant to do that.

[Blood_Lord]

How does the DO expand your spell list, it gives you the Oracle domain, but specifically says that you can prepare the spells on the list as domain spells, which a wizard does not have. So I'm getting the +2 CL to my divinations, but that's it. The second level gives me evasion, which is cool, but if I just took two more levels of wizard instead, I could get the Domain Granted Power in place of my bonus feat at 5th level, and pick a Domain with more oomph than +2 CL to Divinations. Alternately, I could take Spontaneous Divination, which enhances my versatility at all levels.

If I really thought that the RAW gave me the extra spells, I'd go for it (it seems that's your reading), but I don't think it's meant to do that.

Read the part of Complete Divine that talks about domains for for non-Clerics.

Also, you should get Spontaneous Divination if it's allowed, through away levels of Master Specialist to get it if you half to.

Wizard 5/Divine Oracle 2-4/Loremaster X is much much better then Wizard 3/Specialist Wizard 2/Divin....

[Keld Denar]

Wizard 5/Divine Oracle 2-4/Loremaster X is much much better then Wizard 3/Specialist Wizard 2/Divin....

Unless you are going for Archmage, then the 2 levels of MS gives you the bonus feat SF: Spellcraft. Of course, if you take the 2 levels of wizard, you get a bonus feat as well, but you can't take SF: Spellcraft with it, thus requiring you to spend another feat elsewhere on it if you plan on getting into Archmage.

If you are only gonna play once, go FConj5/DO2/Lor3/FS2, this'll give you Spont Div, which is nice. You can also knock the higher level Spell Focus that I put in there, and get something like Split Ray to combo with Enervation (2d4 neg levels!) or Ray of Enfeeblement (this'll hit 2 targets). That's some debuffage right there.

[Twilight Jack]

Read the part of Complete Divine that talks about domains for for non-Clerics.

Also, you should get Spontaneous Divination if it's allowed, through away levels of Master Specialist to get it if you half to.

Wizard 5/Divine Oracle 2-4/Loremaster X is much much better then Wizard 3/Specialist Wizard 2/Divin....

Okay, I've read that now, and Divine Oracle is looking somewhat better. I'm still losing out on a feat that I'll need to qualify for Archmage if I get rid of Master Specialist, though. And upon further reflection, I don't think Keld's build qualifies me for Loremaster, as I'd need at least three item creation or metamagic feats. Keld's build only gives me Scribe Scroll and Extend Spell. I'm short by one.

If I forsake Divine Oracle and go back towards Conjurer after a two level Master Specialist Dip, I can pick up another metamagic feat as a wizard bonus at Wiz 3/MS 2/Wis +2, and qualify for Loremaster at my next level.

If I throw out MS, I lose out on Skill Focus (spellcraft) and don't get another feat via DO or Wizard to replace it. So if I toss MS, I have to buy that Skill Focus myself if I ever want to qualify for Archmage.

[Keld Denar]

You could swap Cloudy Conjouration for another MM feat. CC is good, but not worth delayed entry into PrCs. CC does kind of start to lose a lot of its oomph at that levels, so probably not a bad choice.

[Twilight Jack]

Okay, I think I'm settled on my basic build. Thanks to Keld for the lion's share of the framework. It really helped to focus my thinking on what I wanted out of the character.

Human Focused Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 2/Conjurer +2/Loremaster 3/Fatespinner 2

Prohibited Enchantment, Evocation and Necromancy (one of the other players is putting together a Gish build that is big on Necromancy debuffs, so I'd prefer to keep Abjuration)

ACF: Abrupt Jaunt

1 Spell Focus (Conjuration)
1 H Cloudy Conjuration
1 B Scribe Scroll
3 Skill Focus (Knowledge: Arcana)
4 B Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
6 Extend Spell
7 B Sculpt Spell
8 B Split Ray
9 Spell Focus (Transmutation)
12 Quicken Spell

I picked up an Empower Spell rod, so I'm feeling pretty comfortable about my metamagickin' abilities on the whole. I think this character will do everything I want, and I'm already set for Archmage if the game takes us to 14th level.

I do have one last question for you though, Keld. You mentioned the circlet of rapid casting in the MIC as if it were a single magic item combined with a headband of intellect. Is that just a subset of the magic item creation rules in the DMG, which outlines how to add abilities to items (in which case a circlet of rapid casting intellect +6 would actually run 58,500 gp, which is a bit too much for a 12th level character), or is there another source you're thinking of which outlines how multiple wonderous items can be combined into one?

[Keld Denar]

I do have one last question for you though, Keld. You mentioned the circlet of rapid casting in the MIC as if it were a single magic item combined with a headband of intellect. Is that just a subset of the magic item creation rules in the DMG, which outlines how to add abilities to items (in which case a circlet of rapid casting intellect +6 would actually run 58,500 gp, which is a bit too much for a 12th level character), or is there another source you're thinking of which outlines how multiple wonderous items can be combined into one?

MIC has rules that supercede those rules. MIC allows you to add only basic things to magic items, mainly stats, resistance, and armor bonuses for only the difference in cost. So, you could have a Cloak of the Montebank of Resistance +5 for the cost of both the CotM and the CoR combined, istead of 1 + 1.5x other. You couldn't make a Cloak of the Montebank of the Manta, though, because its not a basic ability.

A Circlet of Rapid Casting of Intelect +6 is 36,000 for the Int, and 10000 for the Circlet. Circlet is REALLY good, because it lets you quicken low level spells pretty often for free. Its like a Lesser MM Rod of Quicken, only you don't have to draw it, its cheaper, and its pretty freakin awesome.

[Twilight Jack]

MIC has rules that supercede those rules. MIC allows you to add only basic things to magic items, mainly stats, resistance, and armor bonuses for only the difference in cost. So, you could have a Cloak of the Montebank of Resistance +5 for the cost of both the CotM and the CoR combined, istead of 1 + 1.5x other. You couldn't make a Cloak of the Montebank of the Manta, though, because its not a basic ability.

A Circlet of Rapid Casting of Intelect +6 is 36,000 for the Int, and 10000 for the Circlet. Circlet is REALLY good, because it lets you quicken low level spells pretty often for free. Its like a Lesser MM Rod of Quicken, only you don't have to draw it, its cheaper, and its pretty freakin awesome.

Ah, I have now read all that and bookmarked it. Very cool. Unfortunately, the circlet of rapid casting is still 15,000 gp, not 10k. So it's still fairly prohibitively expensive. I'd be dropping 31,000 gp on it just for the +4 intellect version. Is it worth it when I've only 88,000 to spend and have already dropped 32,500 on a metamagic rod of empower? Should I ditch the rod in favor of this?

Which will get me more mileage in the long run?

[Twilight Jack]

MIC has rules that supercede those rules. MIC allows you to add only basic things to magic items, mainly stats, resistance, and armor bonuses for only the difference in cost. So, you could have a Cloak of the Montebank of Resistance +5 for the cost of both the CotM and the CoR combined, istead of 1 + 1.5x other. You couldn't make a Cloak of the Montebank of the Manta, though, because its not a basic ability.

A Circlet of Rapid Casting of Intelect +6 is 36,000 for the Int, and 10000 for the Circlet. Circlet is REALLY good, because it lets you quicken low level spells pretty often for free. Its like a Lesser MM Rod of Quicken, only you don't have to draw it, its cheaper, and its pretty freakin awesome.

Ah, very cool. I've never read the MIC cover to cover. It's just a bit too much like a Sears & Roebuck catalog to make for very interesting reading. Mostly, I've just skimmed it for interesting items. The expanded basic bonuses rules are very good to know.

That said, a circlet of rapid casting is 15,000gp, not 10,000. So I'm still looking at 51,000gp to get it at +6. I'm thinking of going at +4 for 31,000. That makes a lot more sense at my character's level. Along with the other things I've bought (rod of empower spell, cloak of resistance to round out the abyssmal saves brought on by that much pure caster multiclassing, a few pearls of power, and a +1 defending quarterstaff), that leaves me with just over 10,000gp left to spend. Any other suggestions?

[Keld Denar]

a +1 defending quarterstaff[/I]), that leaves me with just over 10,000gp left to spend. Any other suggestions?

No no no no. Even with +3 GMW, you only get a +3 to your AC for 8k. Thats not worth it. Your AC is gonna be low. The glory of being a wizard is that you don't NEED AC. Greater Mirror Image should protect you in the rare chance you DO get hit, which, with Abrupt Jaunt shouldn't be very often. Um, a Lesser Rod of Extend is usually a good purchase. A Boccobs Blessed Book is 10k, and basically allows you to have unlimited spells known as long as you interface with a couple other wizards. You won't fill this baby up for a few levels yet.

Really, take a look through MIC and look for a couple of minor items that look fun. Gauntlets of Ghostfighting are pretty decent if you expect to fight a lot of incorps. That makes Web into basically an IWIN button, since incorps don't have the str or ranks in Escape Artist to get out. A Lesser Rod of Chaining is pretty imba, especially if you combine it with GMW to buff everyones weapons, and after that use it with Nerveskitter to give your whole party a +5 init bonus. Going first means you win faster.

Oh, snap. You wanna be really abusive. Forget all that stuff I mentioned. Get a Belt of Battle. +2 initiative and burn 2-3 charges for extra spells. In that one encounter you REALLY want to win, pop this baby and drop a Freezing Fog on top of an Evards Black Tenticles. They'll have to spend their whole round make a grapple check against your EBT, then if they make that, they have to make a Reflex Saves vs your FF, and if they make THAT, they'll get to move 5', since EBT halves movement. Thats how a wizard says F*** Off, I'm busy. If they make it out of that, alive, your whole party will be waiting there to clobber them. Best combo ever.

Also, don't forget to abuse your Circlet of Rapid Casting with the spell Benign Transposition. Swap places between you, your allies, and your BSF who just wants to hit stuff, hard. If you spend a swift action every round to ENSURE that he gets to full attack every round of combat, you've done VERY well as a Batman wizard. If you make him look good, it looks even better for you. A good standard combat opener would be Haste (standard) move 60 ft (move) up to an opponent, and then Circlet BT you and the BSF. He'll get to go next and wtfpwn because he gets his +1 hit and extra attack from haste, and next round you can cc a foe or 2 with a cloud or similar. Remember, ALL of your Conjouration spells proc the cloud. Benign Transposition is an awesome Conjouration. All movement spells are awesome Conjourations. All clouds are awesome Conjourations, and all orbs are awesome Conjourations. You have tons of options, the hardest part is gonna be picking the most appropriate one at the time.

[Twilight Jack]

No no no no. Even with +3 GMW, you only get a +3 to your AC for 8k. Thats not worth it. Your AC is gonna be low. The glory of being a wizard is that you don't NEED AC. Greater Mirror Image should protect you in the rare chance you DO get hit, which, with Abrupt Jaunt shouldn't be very often. Um, a Lesser Rod of Extend is usually a good purchase. A Boccobs Blessed Book is 10k, and basically allows you to have unlimited spells known as long as you interface with a couple other wizards. You won't fill this baby up for a few levels yet.

Really, take a look through MIC and look for a couple of minor items that look fun. Gauntlets of Ghostfighting are pretty decent if you expect to fight a lot of incorps. That makes Web into basically an IWIN button, since incorps don't have the str or ranks in Escape Artist to get out. A Lesser Rod of Chaining is pretty imba, especially if you combine it with GMW to buff everyones weapons, and after that use it with Nerveskitter to give your whole party a +5 init bonus. Going first means you win faster.

Oh, snap. You wanna be really abusive. Forget all that stuff I mentioned. Get a Belt of Battle. +2 initiative and burn 2-3 charges for extra spells. In that one encounter you REALLY want to win, pop this baby and drop a Freezing Fog on top of an Evards Black Tenticles. They'll have to spend their whole round make a grapple check against your EBT, then if they make that, they have to make a Reflex Saves vs your FF, and if they make THAT, they'll get to move 5', since EBT halves movement. Thats how a wizard says F*** Off, I'm busy. If they make it out of that, alive, your whole party will be waiting there to clobber them. Best combo ever.

Also, don't forget to abuse your Circlet of Rapid Casting with the spell Benign Transposition. Swap places between you, your allies, and your BSF who just wants to hit stuff, hard. If you spend a swift action every round to ENSURE that he gets to full attack every round of combat, you've done VERY well as a Batman wizard. If you make him look good, it looks even better for you. A good standard combat opener would be Haste (standard) move 60 ft (move) up to an opponent, and then Circlet BT you and the BSF. He'll get to go next and wtfpwn because he gets his +1 hit and extra attack from haste, and next round you can cc a foe or 2 with a cloud or similar. Remember, ALL of your Conjouration spells proc the cloud. Benign Transposition is an awesome Conjouration. All movement spells are awesome Conjourations. All clouds are awesome Conjourations, and all orbs are awesome Conjourations. You have tons of options, the hardest part is gonna be picking the most appropriate one at the time.

Thanks for the tip. I just feel very squishy with a 13 AC, even though I know I shouldn't ever be in a position where it might matter. It just makes me nervous.

I was already looking at the belt of battle. I can't find those ghostfighting gauntlets though. Where are they?

EDIT: Nevermind. They're part of a set.

[Keld Denar]

Thanks for the tip. I just feel very squishy with a 13 AC, even though I know I shouldn't ever be in a position where it might matter. It just makes me nervous.

Another friend of mine played a Shadowcraft Mage from level 1-15 in Living Greyhawk, in a notoriously dangrous region. He never died once, in probably over 200 hours of logged play time. All of this with a 9 AC. Truest me, the difference between the 13 AC you have and the 16 AC you'd get for 8k gold, or the 17 AC you'd get for 10k gold with a ring, or the 18 AC you'd have by adding an Amulet of Nat Armor on top of that for 11k. AC just won't get high enough to matter. I would make sure you use either Mage Armor or Ectoplasmic Armor on yourself every morning to keep those dangerous Incorp Touch attacks away, cause you don't have a lot of str to give if you get jumped by greater shadows, but other than that, for immediate actions you have Greater Mirror Image and Abrupt Jaunt, you shouldn't get touched. If you went with DO, you'd net Evasion, which would protect you from area spells as well, and be pretty close to invincible.

Oh, and another thing. Keep the 4 Heart of X spells from Complete Mage running. They last a long time, and with all 4, you get 100% crit and SA immunity as an elemental. You can discharge them to gain other very lifesaving benefits, like Freedom of Movement from water, Flight from air, and Stoneskin from earth. Very very nice. Those will protect you from the big crits and SAs if you do get hit so you don't get 1shotted, and you can teleport, BT, cloud, etc, to get out of any subsequent hits. A big part of being a wizard is battlefield control and positioning. Your location relative to your enemies should always be something you are watching for. Casting usually takes your standard and your swift actions, but your move action is almost always free. Use it.

[Blood_Lord]

I think there has been some confusion over Wizard 5.

At Wizard 5 you get one of the following: A bonus feat (This is worse then what you get from MS.)

Spontaneous casting of all Divination spells ever, sexy awesome. (This is the most important ability a Divine Oracle/Loremaster can get, and is worth more then any 3 feats.)

If you are not taking the Spontaneous Divination feature from Complete Champion, then you will take only 3 levels of Wizard in your build.

If you Spontaneous Divination is an option, it is the only option you will take.

[Keld Denar]

I dunno, I'd almost consider downgrading your Rod of Empower to a Lesser one. Ray of Enfeeblement and its younger but more popular brother Ray of Clumsiness are absolutely sexy when Empowered. The only thing I'd see you Empowering with a medium rod would be a Split Ray Enervation, which is almost abusive. :P Nothing says luvin like 3d4 negative levels to the face. Will probably incure DM wrath though. If you stick to stuff like a Circlet quickened Rod empowered Ray of Enfeeblement followed by a normal cast Ray of Exhaustion, you'll sufficiently disable without fear of rolling 4s on your Enervation and reducing your DMs 13 HD baddy into a 1 HD commoner...lol. Use your Circlet for comboing low level spells with high level spells. Ray of Enfeeble combos really well with Evards, since lower Str checks mean lower grapple checks. Things like Web couple well with spells like EBT or Solid Fog, to completely nerf movement speed down to rediculously small numbers. Glitterdust combos well with everything, especially to slow up a group of mooks, then hit the big bad with a Solid Fog to give your allies time to mop the mooks. You have so many options available, its rediculous, and all of the FS Conjouration slots to fill with so many spells made of so much win.

Best of luck, any other questions?

[ericgrau]

Thanks for the tip. I just feel very squishy with a 13 AC, even though I know I shouldn't ever be in a position where it might matter. It just makes me nervous.

Is that w/o mage armor? Mage armor is a conjuration spell, so it's allowed. I believe spell compendium has greater mage armor as a third level spell for +6 AC, if you can spare the spell slot. Ring of protection +1 and amulet of natural armor +1 are only 2000gp each. A +1 mithril buckler is a little over 2000gp and adds +2 AC, without any spell failure chance or armor check penalty. Nonproficiency only means you apply the armor check penalty to attack rolls, so no need for that. The only downside is now you have to keep the other hand free for casting. You can still hold random objects in your buckler hand if need be; you just can't wave them around magically. That should put you at 23 AC for 6000gp. 23 AC is a 40% miss chance against a CR 13 storm giant's ranged attack, and much better against lesser mooks. If you have money to spare then next on the list would be a +2 buckler, then gloves of dexterity +2. 50% for 13000gp. I hope no one would spend 24,000gp on a minor cloak of displacement (20%) or 50,000gp for a major cloak (50%, but command word - i.e. standard action - to activate) . At least not until crazy high levels.

[Stupendous_Man]

Thanks for the tip. I just feel very squishy with a 13 AC, even though I know I shouldn't ever be in a position where it might matter. It just makes me nervous.

Mage Armor: +4 AC

Alter Self: Tren (Serpent Kingdoms) +8 NA

[Twilight Jack]

Yeah, the 13 AC is before Mage Armor or any other defensive buffs. I am well aware of the various spells I can cast to boost it.

Keld, I took your advice on the rod of empower and downgraded it. I prohibited Necromancy as a school because one of the other players in the group is running an Eldritch Knight with Necromancy specialization. I'll leave all the rays of exhaustion to him. I'm going more towards pure battlefield control and other forms of save or suck. I helped him with his build and he can now debuff to his heart's content.