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View Full Version : Is Intimidation the worst possible interaction skill in 3.5? Does it have other uses?



Paramour Pink
2008-12-02, 04:46 PM
Hi.

It sort of occured to me when I was looking at the three social interaction (3.5 if that's important) skills that intimidation seems like the worst out of all of them. Out of diplomacy, bluffing and (of course) intimidation, it seems like a poor comparison.

With each of them you can ease a warring nation, haggel your little heart out, or use in combat. But out of all of them, intimidation appears like it has a high difficulty number to beat considering that only one other skill gives it a synergy boost (bluff) and yet it has four factors working against a successful intimidation effect ("1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus + target’s modifiers on saves against fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm)").

I suppose, if you keep in mind trying to make a difficult lie, or you're using the Giant's Diplomacy rules, the difficulty numbers across all three seem more even. But even then, intimdate seems like a short-sighted version of diplomacy (you're hated afterwards, if you're successful) and a more hostile version of bluffing. The latter wouldn't be so bad for a fight if it wasn't for the fact that the only thing a bluff would have to overcome compared to an intimidation attempt was the wisedom modifier.

With all that said, I know I must be missing something. I [I]hope I am. I want to use a character that has a lot invested in intimidation skill ranks but without it being deadweight. So I'm here to ask if I'm all mixed up on my comparison of usefulness? Or, even if I'm not, I'm interested in what options do the intimidate skill offer?

To explain what I mean by "options", I mean, for example, if you look in the Tome of Battle (page 27), you can use it to have a "Duel of Wills" at the start of a fight. I don't know how useful that is, but that's what I'd like to know. What options to other books (any book at all in 3.5) offer for the intimidate skill? If you know any more than I do, or if I'm grossly underestimating the usefulness of the intimidate skill, please tell me. I'd like to have a little more faith in my skill choice. :smallsmile:

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-02, 04:52 PM
Instantaneous rage + Instant Rage + Never Outnumbered + Imperious Command = ???

SurlySeraph
2008-12-02, 04:58 PM
Intimidate is useful when you have feats or class features that make it useful in combat. Out of the box, though, it's the worst.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-02, 05:00 PM
It can be nice out of combat when you need to interrogate hostile prisoners, or when you just need to muscle some punks out of your way. The combat mechanisms are terrible though.

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-02, 05:02 PM
It can be nice out of combat when you need to interrogate hostile prisoners, or when you just need to muscle some punks out of your way. The combat mechanisms are terrible though.

Until you focus on them. Then they become very nice.

Paramour Pink
2008-12-02, 05:07 PM
Instantaneous rage + Instant Rage + Never Outnumbered + Imperious Command = ???

I have no idea what it equals. I only vaguely reconize Never Outnumbered as a....Skill Trick? I think. I don't know anything about the others.


Intimidate is useful when you have feats or class features that make it useful in combat. Out of the box, though, it's the worst.

That's a shame. :smallfrown:

I'm not planning on using a class that has special features that boost it, partly because I'm unaware of them, though.


It can be nice out of combat when you need to interrogate hostile prisoners, or when you just need to muscle some punks out of your way. The combat mechanisms are terrible though.

Yeah, the combat part is what really inspired me to ask, even though I would like to use intimidate outside of combat more. But I never thought about the hostile prisoners, probably because I'm blinded by the idea of diplomacy ("hey look, he wants to be our friend. That information should flow out of him now. :smallsmile:")


Until you focus on them. Then they become very nice.

Suggest some! :D

LibraryOgre
2008-12-02, 05:33 PM
Oh, I see a way to vastly simplify the mechanics for Intimidation: You roll against 1d20 + will or fortitude save v. fear (fortitude so you don't have fighters and the like quailing when someone looks at them sharply).

Fax Celestis
2008-12-02, 05:34 PM
Oh, I see a way to vastly simplify the mechanics for Intimidation: You roll against 1d20 + will or fortitude save v. fear (fortitude so you don't have fighters and the like quailing when someone looks at them sharply).

...why not give fighter-types a bonus based on class level vs. Intimidation?

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-02, 05:40 PM
Never Outnumbered: Feint against multiple targets simultaneously. Prerequisite of 8 skill ranks.

Instantaneous Rage: Activate your rage as a free action, even during other people’s turn.

Intimidating Rage: As a free action, intimidate one person within 30 feet when starting a rage, forcing him to become shaken for the duration of the rage.

Imperious Command: Demoralized opponent cowers for 1 round, then shaken for 1 round.

Frightful Presence: Whenever you attack or charge, all opponents within a radius of 30 feet who have fewer levels or Hit Dice than you become shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d6 + your Cha modifier.

Instantaneous Rage + Intimidating Rage + Imperious Command + Frightful Presence + Never Outnumbered = Profit

It's from that Charop barbarian hanbook

Eldariel
2008-12-02, 05:43 PM
I have no idea what it equals. I only vaguely reconize Never Outnumbered as a....Skill Trick? I think. I don't know anything about the others.

He meant "Intimidating rage". The wonderful thing about fear effects is that they stack. So one effect making a guy shakened means a second one will make him frightened, and a third one panicking. Frightened creatures basically cannot take actions; they're forced to use all their available means to run away from the source of their fear (although don't corner them - then they may continue fighting with the Shakened-penalties). Panicked creatures run away and cower if cornered. Basically, they go catotonic in a corner. Now, what the feats presented do is:

Instantaneous Rage [CWar I think]: You may Rage as an immediate action.
Intimidating Rage [CWar]: You get to make a free Intimidate-check when you Rage. The Demoralized-effect lasts until your Rage runs out.
Never Outnumbered [CScoun]: You may Intimidate any number of opponents within 30'.
Imperious Command [DoTU]: If you successfully Intimidate an opponent, they spend one round Cowering and then an additional round Shakened.

So you start raging, Intimidate all opponents, make your checks (trust me, a Raging Barbarian is scary) and all opponents cower for one round (and cower is a doozy: Cowering creature is frozen in fear; it may take no actions and takes -2 to AC and loses dexterity!) and are shakened after that (and e.g. Intimidating them leaves them Frightened instead of Shakened). There's, among others, a feat which allows you to make an Intimidate-check whenever you charge, and one that allows you to do it whenever you score a Critical. Frightful Presence gives you Dragons' Frightful Presence, but since it only works against creatures with less HD than you, it's fairly inefficient. Resounding Blow [BoED] and Intimidating Strike [PHBII] are the two feats that give you Intimidate-checks when attacking. Resounding Blow actually allows you to make the opponent cower on a critical.

Keld Denar
2008-12-02, 05:47 PM
Instantaneous Rage - Rage as an Immediate Action
Intimidating Rage - Make intimidate checks when you rage, now immediate
Imperious Command - When you make foes shaken, they cower for a round first, then are shaken.
Never Outnumbered - Make intimidate checks against multiple foes instead of 1.

Thus, you can rage to interupt someone's actions, and they basically lose their turn cowering, meaning its now your turn to charge/smash/rendntear/etc.

Its Greater Celerity for Barbarians, without the problem of being stunned a round. Oh, and it only works on things that actually can be feared. Paladins, constructs, Killorans, undead, plants, and anyone who's eaten a Hero's Feast in the last day is immune to your jedibarbarian mind tricks, not to mention anyone with Mind Blank or similar.

Eldariel
2008-12-02, 05:49 PM
Its Greater Celerity for Barbarians, without the problem of being stunned a round. Oh, and it only works on things that actually can be feared. Paladins, constructs, Killorans, undead, plants, and anyone who's eaten a Hero's Feast in the last day is immune to your jedibarbarian mind tricks, not to mention anyone with Mind Blank or similar.

Actually, Intimidate lacks the Mind-Affecting tag so it penetrates Mind Blank just fine. Dragons though. Speaking of Dragons, Dragons with maxed Intimidate, Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered (along with Frightful Presence-improving feats) can really wreak havoc on any party that isn't specifically protected from Fear-effects (of course, if they're about to fight a Dragon, they better be...but most protections go off in Anti-Magic Fields or through simple Dispel).

Scribble
2008-12-02, 05:58 PM
Crusaders (ToB) can do an intimidation check at the beginning of combat against an opponent and enter a sort of contest of wills. There are various results.

Keld Denar
2008-12-02, 06:09 PM
Actually, Intimidate lacks the Mind-Affecting tag so it penetrates Mind Blank just fine.

I thought all fear effects were a subset of [Mind Affecting], regardless of how it comes about. I'll have to do a bit more research...

Deepblue706
2008-12-02, 06:14 PM
Intimidate is good when you want to be social and not a sissy.

Turcano
2008-12-02, 06:28 PM
If you have high Charisma and you're willing to invest in 8 ranks of Bluff and Perform on top of Intimidate, you might want to consider taking the feat Combat Panache from PH2. It's a tactical feat that, among other things, lets you make an Intimidate check as a move action to give an opponent an attack penalty equal to your Charisma modifier for the rest of the encounter.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-02, 06:28 PM
Heh. I hadn't heard of the Intimidate Cheese. As usual, anything can be fixed broken by splatbook feats :smalltongue:

Kalirren
2008-12-02, 06:37 PM
Even without considering Intimidate cheese, there is definitely a point to the skill. It's extremely useful as an NPC skill, and in one of my previous groups, it was one tool our DM used to give a IC reason to prevent players from doing things they might otherwise try to do (including various flavors of stupid ****): NPC A doesn't like your plan X, but your character is being bullheaded about it. NPC A gives your character a disapproving stare. Roll vs. NPC A's Intimidate. Fail, you say? Your character is intimidated by NPC A. Your character thinks it would probably not be worth crossing NPC A to execute plan X, and quits talking about it.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-02, 06:40 PM
Even without considering Intimidate cheese, there is definitely a point to the skill. It's extremely useful as an NPC skill, and in one of my previous groups, it was one tool our DM used to give a IC reason to prevent players from doing things they might otherwise try to do (including various flavors of stupid ****): Roll vs. NPC A's Intimidate. Fail, you say? Your character is intimidated by NPC A. Your character thinks it would probably not be worth crossing NPC A to execute plan X.

Do you also allow PCs to be Diplomanced by NPCs? :smallconfused:

I never let NPCs use social skills on the PCs, aside from Bluff. And even then, I only use it to let a PC know if he catches someone in a lie (via Insight). If my player doesn't trust me, then his character can be suspicious too.

Mainly this is to preserve the players' RP autonomy. No telling them that they are convinced (Diplomacy), or that they must trust someone (Bluff), or that they're scared of someone (Intimidate).

Like Gimli says (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1168): "You can railroad me all over the place as much as ye please, but you can't tell me how my character feels."

Kalirren
2008-12-02, 07:05 PM
Do you also allow PCs to be Diplomanced by NPCs?

As a matter of fact, yes; the question becomes, to what extent? As a part of our group's gaming contract, we just have a decent intuition about what we expect from negotiation rolls and how they apply. Character action and mental state are typically the player's privilege to dictate (e.g. Diplomacy, or the reaction to a few successes on a simple Cha+Expression roll), but there are circumstances and powers that explicitly mitigate this privilege and give other agents (controlled by other players/the DM) the right to influence decisions made by another player's character (e.g., charm person, using Presence 3). That's part of the rules, as far as we know them.

We often say to each other reminders like, "keep in mind, after listening to that speech he gave this morning, you find it more difficult than usual to start criticizing him." And to the extent that it works, it works. The GM doesn't use it unfairly, and neither do the players.

And no, we didn't use the d20 diplomancy rules.

TheThan
2008-12-02, 08:43 PM
*ahem*

your friendly neighborhood Thethan here with a relevant comic strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html).


*interwebswings away*

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-02, 09:14 PM
As a matter of fact, yes; the question becomes, to what extent? As a part of our group's gaming contract, we just have a decent intuition about what we expect from negotiation rolls and how they apply. Character action and mental state are typically the player's privilege to dictate (e.g. Diplomacy, or the reaction to a few successes on a simple Cha+Expression roll), but there are circumstances and powers that explicitly mitigate this privilege and give other agents (controlled by other players/the DM) the right to influence decisions made by another player's character (e.g., charm person, using Presence 3). That's part of the rules, as far as we know them.

I think we can all agree that magical mind control can trump RP Autonomy; that's kind of the point, no? I was more interested in hearing whether you allowed your party to be coerced into plot hooks by NPCs with high Diplomacy rolls alone.

That is to say, what non-magical circumstances allow you, as the DM, to say "No, you agree to take the mission."

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-02, 09:15 PM
"But thou must!"

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-02, 09:24 PM
"But Thou Must!" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButThouMust)

Fixed it for you :smallamused:

Kalirren
2008-12-02, 09:27 PM
I think we can all agree that magical mind control can trump RP Autonomy; that's kind of the point, no? I was more interested in hearing whether you allowed your party to be coerced into plot hooks by NPCs with high Diplomacy rolls alone.

That is to say, what non-magical circumstances allow you, as the DM, to say "No, you agree to take the mission."

The short answer to the first is "no," because we don't use Diplomacy, as I said before. We use Bluff/Persuade (essentially an anti-sense motive for the most basic of lies/far-fetched truths) and Negotiation (where a high roll on part of the NPC would worsen the deal package for you (at the NPC's option, of course,) but not force you to accept the deal itself.)

The only way any DM in our group would ever coerce the group into taking the mission would be with Intimidate: Roll vs. Intimidate (a couple times, probably). You fail overall? You agree to take the mission. The degree to which you feel compelled/threatened to carry it out or not is can be more or less your issue depending on how badly you failed the opposed rolls. And if some people fail and some people don't, well, we see how the group sorts itself out.

DrizztFan24
2008-12-02, 10:26 PM
I am going to have to go with Forgery as being the most useless actually. While it doesn't involve direct interaction at the time of the roll when is it ever used in a typical game? I have never had to use the skill.

Otherwise the prior posters have provided enough cheese for me. :smallbiggrin:

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-02, 10:28 PM
I am going to have to go with Forgery as being the most useless actually. While it doesn't involve direct interaction at the time of the roll when is it ever used in a typical game? I have never had to use the skill.

Otherwise the prior posters have provided enough cheese for me. :smallbiggrin:

Depends on the DM and the game. If the DM let's you use it how it realistically could be used then it is one of the most powerful skills in the game. Most DM's just don't want to deal with it though.

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-02, 10:35 PM
I am going to have to go with Forgery as being the most useless actually. While it doesn't involve direct interaction at the time of the roll when is it ever used in a typical game? I have never had to use the skill.

Cheque from the king to the royal treasury.

Telonius
2008-12-02, 10:40 PM
Well, it is a major part of the Samurai, with Mass Staredown and Improved Staredown abilities helping it. So yeah, it's awful without extra feats.

Cybren
2008-12-02, 10:41 PM
Forgery is awesome.

Go ahead, guess what skill opposes it.

Yukitsu
2008-12-02, 10:42 PM
I never got that.

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-02, 10:44 PM
Forgery is awesome.

Go ahead, guess what skill opposes it.

Handle Animal?

Yukitsu
2008-12-02, 10:44 PM
I would have liked it as spot/sense motive/appraise. As opposed to forgery...

Collin152
2008-12-02, 10:47 PM
Handle Animal?

Use Rope. Climb. Jump!

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-02, 11:05 PM
I would have liked it as spot/sense motive/appraise. As opposed to forgery...

Why?

Sense Motive makes no sense (although it does oppose any bluff checks that go along with using the forged documents). The person using the forgery can honestly believe it too be a valid document.

Appraise likewise makes no sense, it deals with guessing the value of items.

And spot is also kinda foolish.

I mean it was either Forgery opposing Forgery or the creation of another skill.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-02, 11:09 PM
Forgery is overpowered by RAW. I mean check this:

The Forgery check is made secretly, so that you’re not sure how good your forgery is. As with Disguise, you don’t even need to make a check until someone examines the work. Your Forgery check is opposed by the Forgery check of the person who examines the document to check its authenticity. The examiner gains modifiers on his or her check if any of the conditions on the table below exist.

Emphasis mine. How many NPC classes even have Forgery as a skill choice? This is like Improved Feinting with Rogues, only better; nearly everyone you meet is going to try and beat your Forgery check with a base INT check.

And look at the bonuses! A document that is well known to the reader, supposedly prepared by someone intimately known by the reader, gives the reader a +4 bonus. If you have a sample of the supposed author's signature? You get a +4 bonus too!

A LV 2 Rogue with INT 14, Skill Focus & Deceitful already has a +12 to his check. It's like a Diplomancer, but with writing!

EDIT:
There really isn't a good fix for this, aside from boosting the bonuses of the reader a bit so that a 2nd level Rogue can't write himself a pardon :smalltongue:

Well... static DCs might have helped, since you can't Take 20 on this roll. Base the DC off of how well the Reader should know the document.

Yukitsu
2008-12-02, 11:16 PM
Why?

Sense Motive makes no sense (although it does oppose any bluff checks that go along with using the forged documents). The person using the forgery can honestly believe it too be a valid document.

Yeah, pretty much at these times. However, if you have sense motive, you should have some idea of writing style and tone.


Appraise likewise makes no sense, it deals with guessing the value of items.

Real life authenticators of art and famous documents typically deal with appraisal more often than practicing forgery skills, and even moreso than trying to detect forgeries. They get to know it by intimately knowing the actual material, then comparing the potential forgery to the known ones.


And spot is also kinda foolish.

Why? The ability to see errant details is what detecting forgeries requires.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-02, 11:23 PM
So, what the skills actually are:

Appraise
Check

You can appraise common or well-known objects with a DC 12 Appraise check. Failure means that you estimate the value at 50% to 150% (2d6+3 times 10%,) of its actual value.

Appraising a rare or exotic item requires a successful check against DC 15, 20, or higher. If the check is successful, you estimate the value correctly; failure means you cannot estimate the item’s value.

A magnifying glass gives you a +2 circumstance bonus on Appraise checks involving any item that is small or highly detailed, such as a gem. A merchant’s scale gives you a +2 circumstance bonus on Appraise checks involving any items that are valued by weight, including anything made of precious metals.

These bonuses stack.

This is used solely for determining the value of an object. If you want to house rule that it can also be used to judge the authenticity of a document, more power to you. But it ain't RAW.

Sense Motive
A successful check lets you avoid being bluffed. You can also use this skill to determine when “something is up” (that is, something odd is going on) or to assess someone’s trustworthiness.

This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another’s behavior that something is wrong, such as when you’re talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy.

Sense Enchantment
You can tell that someone’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (by definition, a mind-affecting effect), even if that person isn’t aware of it. The usual DC is 25, but if the target is dominated (see dominate person), the DC is only 15 because of the limited range of the target’s activities.

Discern Secret Message
You may use Sense Motive to detect that a hidden message is being transmitted via the Bluff skill. In this case, your Sense Motive check is opposed by the Bluff check of the character transmitting the message. For each piece of information relating to the message that you are missing, you take a -2 penalty on your Sense Motive check. If you succeed by 4 or less, you know that something hidden is being communicated, but you can’t learn anything specific about its content. If you beat the DC by 5 or more, you intercept and understand the message. If you fail by 4 or less, you don’t detect any hidden communication. If you fail by 5 or more, you infer some false information.

This is clearly a "people sense" power. It'd be weird for it to also detect the emotional state of paper :smalltongue:

Spot
The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it.

Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise, and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying.

Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant).

This seems to be a "seeing things that are far away" skill. Search is a better choice for the "noticing fine details" point, since it lets you detect secret doors. I'd say no here too.

Yukitsu
2008-12-02, 11:30 PM
I'm obviously not talking rules as written. I think I've kind of said that forgery is what is used. I certainly would prefer any of those other skills changed to deal with it, rather than forgery.

And people who read literature and complain when the author switched styles, or a new author took over and has subtle changes that just "feel off?" That's sense motive more than anything else.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-02, 11:33 PM
I'm obviously not talking rules as written. I think I've kind of said that forgery is what is used. I certainly would prefer any of those other skills changed to deal with it, rather than forgery.

And people who read literature and complain when the author switched styles, or a new author took over and has subtle changes that just "feel off?" That's sense motive more than anything else.

*shrug* I'm just going by what the skills seem to intend. Sense Motive is clearly a "people sense" skill and Spot seems to be a "seeing things that are difficult to see" but not "finding hidden objects/doors." Neither of those seem amenable to having a "detect forgery" tacked onto it.

Appraise makes the most sense, since it is explicitly linked to examining objects. Plus, merchants should probably be pretty good at detecting forgeries, so that's a plus too.

It's just hilarious that Forgery is a literal "To Catch A Thief" skill :smallbiggrin:

Khosan
2008-12-02, 11:34 PM
I always assumed it was Appraise that countered Forgery. It makes sense to me that the ability to judge the worth of items would also mean you can spot fakes when they come up.

And now I know, not that it was much of an issue in the first place.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-02, 11:40 PM
I always assumed it was Appraise that countered Forgery. It makes sense to me that the ability to judge the worth of items would also mean you can spot fakes when they come up.

And now I know, not that it was much of an issue in the first place.

You should totally make it an issue. Can you imagine how much damage the Rogue can do if he gets a hold of the King's signature (from any proclamation) and makes himself a Secret Police ID card?

"Sorry ma'am, I'm from the Inquisition *flashes scroll* and I'm going to need to requisition that pie. Official business."

"Greetings officer, glad you could show up. I'm here as a Quester for the King, and I was investigating this shop for signs of a conspiracy. Post a guard out front to make sure I'm not disturbed until this is done."

Unless the Watch happens to be in spitting distance of a Royal representative, you can totally pull this scam all the time. It helps if there really is a Secret Police, of course.

It makes you wonder why anyone trusts written documents anyhow :smalltongue:

Yukitsu
2008-12-02, 11:43 PM
You should totally make it an issue. Can you imagine how much damage the Rogue can do if he gets a hold of the King's signature (from any proclamation) and makes himself a Secret Police ID card?

"Sorry ma'am, I'm from the Inquisition *flashes scroll* and I'm going to need to requisition that pie. Official business."

"Greetings officer, glad you could show up. I'm here as a Quester for the King, and I was investigating this shop for signs of a conspiracy. Post a guard out front to make sure I'm not disturbed until this is done."

Unless the Watch happens to be in spitting distance of a Royal representative, you can totally pull this scam all the time. It helps if there really is a Secret Police, of course.

It makes you wonder why anyone trusts written documents anyhow :smalltongue:

I did this once, actually.

A city thought I was a paladin for about 6 months of game time.

Vexxation
2008-12-02, 11:45 PM
It helps if there really is a Secret Police, of course.

Well, every society has Secret Police.
It's just that you don't hear about them very often.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-02, 11:49 PM
Well, every society has Secret Police.
It's just that you don't hear about them very often.

OK, so you need at least a rumor of Secret Police. This sounds like a good time for the Beguiler to start pulling out the Glibness :smalltongue:

Hey... if Beguilers get Forgery (do they?) then they can be a one-man crime family! Writing fake deeds to properties, pardons for their pals, and writs of all kind... they could rule a small city within a week!

Vexxation
2008-12-02, 11:56 PM
Hey... if Beguilers get Forgery (do they?) then they can be a one-man crime family! Writing fake deeds to properties, pardons for their pals, and writs of all kind... they could rule a small city within a week!

A week? Feh. Three days. And that's if they only use Glibness once a day.

Day one: Disguise Self, Disguise as someone who would be allowed to talk one-on-one with King. Bluff way into King's chamber with Glibness. Kill king with Sneak Attack (Beguilers get that, right?). Bluff guards who come rushing in. "He's not dead. He's.... sleeping! And he wants me to watch the castle tonight."

Day Two: Forge King's will. Recast Disguise Self and Glibness. Bluff guards "Oh my, the king died during the night. How unfortunate. By the way, I found his will on his desk."

Day Three: Inaugurated as king.

A little oversimplified, but it shows how scary Beguilers are in low-level society.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-03, 12:16 AM
A week? Feh. Three days. And that's if they only use Glibness once a day.

Day one: Disguise Self, Disguise as someone who would be allowed to talk one-on-one with King. Bluff way into King's chamber with Glibness. Kill king with Sneak Attack (Beguilers get that, right?). Bluff guards who come rushing in. "He's not dead. He's.... sleeping! And he wants me to watch the castle tonight."

Day Two: Forge King's will. Recast Disguise Self and Glibness. Bluff guards "Oh my, the king died during the night. How unfortunate. By the way, I found his will on his desk."

Day Three: Inaugurated as king.

A little oversimplified, but it shows how scary Beguilers are in low-level society.

That is... well, really good. I'd not go with the King though - he probably has a spymaster with a decent Forgery rank. Take out a Duke, make it look like an accident, and leave the Will in his desk. Once you've got the duchy up and running, kick back and live off the sweat of your peasants :smallbiggrin:

Ganurath
2008-12-03, 12:33 AM
In response to the OP:

Hexblade 5 / Avenging Executioner 5 / Ghost Faced Killer 10. If you don't have issues with an evil alignment, you can clear through mooks like an ubercharger with the right feat selection. There are also certain synergies that work well with the build.

"How is your Intimidate bonus so high?"
"I survived Otuygh Hole."
"And how did you qualify for Avenging Executioner?"
"I was wrongfully sentenced to the aforementioned cesspit."
"Isn't that somewhat ironic?"
"I think the more appropriate term would be 'karmic.'"

End result: You get +8d6 damage against shaken, panicked, or frightened enemies. Everything you do can make an enemy shaken, panicked, or frightened, provided you start things off with either striking a flat-footed foe or making a successful Intimidate check as a move action. Be sure to use the Hexblade varient in PHBII to maintain the momentum of pandemonium.

Narmoth
2008-12-03, 05:10 AM
A week? Feh. Three days. And that's if they only use Glibness once a day.

Day one: Disguise Self, Disguise as someone who would be allowed to talk one-on-one with King. Bluff way into King's chamber with Glibness. Kill king with Sneak Attack (Beguilers get that, right?). Bluff guards who come rushing in. "He's not dead. He's.... sleeping! And he wants me to watch the castle tonight."

Day Two: Forge King's will. Recast Disguise Self and Glibness. Bluff guards "Oh my, the king died during the night. How unfortunate. By the way, I found his will on his desk."

Day Three: Inaugurated as king.

A little oversimplified, but it shows how scary Beguilers are in low-level society.

It would probably be good to forge the kings will before killing the king.

Thurbane
2008-12-03, 05:35 AM
Try to use your puny Forgery on the King of the Barbarian Horde - he foiled you by not spending 2 skill points to become literate! :smalltongue:

ericgrau
2008-12-03, 05:52 AM
Intimidate is only blanketly worse than diplomacy when you go purely by rolls and ignore the fact that intimidate is intimidate and diplomacy is diplomacy. Some situations have no diplomatic solution.