Unimaginative players...

[AgentPaper]

Ok, so I've noticed that my normal DnD group (who I DM for) are rather...boring in DnD. I actually asked them at one point if they wanted me to railroad them or not, and they said they wanted to be. Now, if I really thought they would have the most fun being railroaded all over, I don't think that's true. (if it is, they might as well just play more videogames) I definitely know that I would have more fun if they were doing things other than "I go in the dungeon and kill the stuff" and "I sleep in the tavern for the night". They also seem overly cautious as well, taking every possible chance they get to have extended rests, between every other fight on average.

Now, I know a few things I could do to help with this stuff, but if you guys have any ideas on stuff I can do as a DM to help my players be...well, more interesting?

[BobVosh]

Classic conditioning. Hit them with tennis balls everytime they are boring. Recommend one at a time, but a huge metal basket of them all at once if you have time issues.

[Mystral]

I don't think your players want to be interesting.

Just give them some interesting overall quest, then make the waypoints for their quest rather obvious so they know where to go next, So they don't get lost. Then, try to teach them to improvise by using challanges where they have to think and get creative because there is no obvious answer.

[monty]

Maybe give them lots of difficult choices? Social encounters? Force them to roleplay their characters. Eventually, they'll learn, or your patience will run out, which would inevitably happen anyway.

[Vagnarok]

This is your chance to be a great writer. Write down an epic plot with many subplots intertwined and watch your players worship you. They've given you an opportunity to turn this into a console RPG of sorts. Have fun with it.

[Mastikator]

Hit them with a challenge that there is no obvious way for them to overcome. Make sure they have non-directly useful stuff, which they might put together or make a plan to work, even if it's a long shot, let them win, and reward them.
Also, failure ought not to mean death.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The correct response here is always: more cowbell RP

Even the most recalcitrant roleplayer will get engaged when someone is talking to them in-character for extended periods. If they walk away, then provide them with other NPCs: bartenders, barmaids, stablehands, town guards, shopkeepers, beggars, mercenaries... anyone they run into. Eventually they will find an anchor in your world, and that should help give them a push in the right direction.

Don't worry about your plots yet. Once you get a sense as to what they find interesting (by watching their reactions to RP), do that. Heck, even if all it you get is that they're happy spending all their gold on wenches and ale, you can work with it. Perhaps one of the wenches has her eye on an expensive gift, and would like ever so much for the big strong adventurer to win it for her. Or maybe she absolutely adores the warriors who participate in the Duke's monthly Grand Melee, and would be ever so thrilled if she could meet the winner of one of them.

Trust me, you can put a hook into anything :smallbiggrin:

[Prometheus]

Force them to come up with a creative solution to a problem. For example, maybe they need to steal and item from a well-guarded building. Let them know that if they charge in without a plan, they are probably going to fail. Therefore they have to either come up with an epic attack plan or a creative sneaky plan. Another example, have the PCs captured and have to escape out of a jail-cell. Again, they will have to use a little creativity here.

[Oracle_Hunter]

So, the one problem with "force a creative solution" gambit is that your players may either fail to make one, or refuse to do so. This is a common problem I run into when I try to introduce a RL puzzle or riddle into a game; people just stare blankly for awhile until I start giving them hints.

Needless to say, I don't do this often, but I can always hope, right?

And if they refuse or fail? You end up with a campaign roadblock or death. And if you give the players lots of hints? They'll get used to asking you for hints - it's a type of Learned Helplessness, and it's very hard to shake once it sets in.

[SilverSheriff]

I have a similar problem, whenever I play the whole group just follows.

and since I haven't had a player specific side-quest I've been the one saying "how about we go to the local Library and read up on some interesting artifacts and then head to the tavern for a few pints and some info on local dungeons?"

You guys probably don't know me too well (which is fine with me) but the one thing you need to know is that I hate leading the party...especially when it's full of unimaginative dolts.

Where everyone else was going to hand the Evil Wizard (who gave us the quest) the MacGuffin I was the one who stood up and said "Wait guys, this thing is called the orb of Worlds, I don't know what it does but until we find out I'm not giving it to that Wizard." turns out that right after I said that the Wizard came through the wall of the room we were in, took the Orb and then sent us against our will to Limbo with no possible way of getting back without the use of Epic Magic or another Super-Powerful Device...

yeah, after that session the DM told me that I've been doing quite well as a leader and suggested I switch my character to Lawful for keeping these people organized and moving, while I wasn't around the others would pull out their bowls and spoons and start the Bowly-Spoony Parade and when I was around they would ask the DM "where do we go now?" :annoyed:

later on when in the Dungeon to find the device to send us back to the prime material the Party Rogue who had not been doing any of his duties was complaining about how I was doing them for him. What the hell? He wasn't searching for traps so he complained about me doing them?


my conclusion: I do stuff, they don't.

[Kizara]

I have a similar problem, whenever I play the whole group just follows.

and since I haven't had a player specific side-quest I've been the one saying "how about we go to the local Library and read up on some interesting artifacts and then head to the tavern for a few pints and some info on local dungeons?"

You guys probably don't know me too well (which is fine with me) but the one thing you need to know is that I hate leading the party...especially when it's full of unimaginative dolts.

Where everyone else was going to hand the Evil Wizard (who gave us the quest) the MacGuffin I was the one who stood up and said "Wait guys, this thing is called the orb of Worlds, I don't know what it does but until we find out I'm not giving it to that Wizard." turns out that right after I said that the Wizard came through the wall of the room we were in, took the Orb and then sent us against our will to Limbo with no possible way of getting back without the use of Epic Magic or another Super-Powerful Device...

yeah, after that session the DM told me that I've been doing quite well as a leader and suggested I switch my character to Lawful for keeping these people organized and moving, while I wasn't around the others would pull out their bowls and spoons and start the Bowly-Spoony Parade and when I was around they would ask the DM "where do we go now?" :annoyed:

later on when in the Dungeon to find the device to send us back to the prime material the Party Rogue who had not been doing any of his duties was complaining about how I was doing them for him. What the hell? He wasn't searching for traps so he complained about me doing them?


my conclusion: I do stuff, they don't.

My advice: roll something amazing, play your own game, let them be idiots, enjoy yourself. Worked for me.

If your CoDzilla is so powerful it can solo anything you run into, it doesn't really matter if your party sucks and doesn't pay attention. RP-wise, you lead by following your own path and allow your 'followers' to trail in your wake.

[Oracle_Hunter]

my conclusion: I do stuff, they don't.

This happens, and it up to the "natural leader" to keep it under control. It's usually a mixture of personal confidence, competence with the rules, familiarity with gaming conventions, and speaking out - some folks do just defer to the guy who seems to know what he's doing.

First of all, if you don't like leading: don't lead. Ask other players what they'd like to do, and provide suggestions. Sit back and indulge in a little RP while everyone else does their own thing. If something important comes up, then grab the reins, but otherwise hang back.

If you don't like that, then face it - you like to lead. Feel free to "guide" your fellow party members through actions, but keep them involved. Tell the Party Rogue to go scout ahead; tell the Party Wizard to detect magic; tell the Party Fighter to stand in front of you. This little push is usually enough to get a player moving, and once they start rolling they usually end up going somewhere. Don't try to do everything yourself; even if you could do it on your own, bring along at least one more PC to "watch your back" if nothing else.

The one thing you can't do is sit around bemoaning your luck. If you don't like to lead, don't, but then don't get antsy when things don't go the way you think they should. If you do lead, then do it willingly, and in your own particular idiom; lead from the front, lead from the back, or lead by suggestion - your choice.

Personal Anecdote
In a Paragon 4E game I'm in, I play an Elven Cleric of Melora with a "surfer" personality; very laid back, speaks slowly and rambly, and is generally a "nice guy." Though he is a "leader" by role, he is not someone who would naturally try to lead a party.

The problem is, I run a 4E game myself, and all the other PCs are fresh to the system. So, OOC I spend a lot of time helping folks with basic tactics (like telling the Rogue to move into flanking instead of assaulting the Big Guy by himself) and figuring out what Powers they want to use. If I'm not careful, it can easily become me running a five-man party - which is bad for everyone - so I make sure to sit back when people make unwise, but non-fatal choices (like blowing a Dimension Door instead of walking :smallsigh:), and if they seem like they know what they're doing, I let 'em do it.

Now, because of my apparent "rules mastery" (and, to be honest, my desire to run things) I often seem to be running the party. Fortunately, this is a party of experienced RPers, so they have no problem doing their own thing when it's not a rules problem, but if they were much more passive, I would have to make sure not to dominate, even if I wanted to be a Drill Sergeant.

[Mewtarthio]

Don't force them to do anything that's not fun. Otherwise, they won't play along and nobody will enjoy themselves. The idea to give them a heavily-guarded MacGuffin that requires an indirect solution is a poor one: If the direct route is suicidal, they will probably take the it anyway; if there is no direct route, they will just sit around and do nothing.

You could try throwing them two plot hooks and once just to see how they react.


Classic conditioning. Hit them with tennis balls everytime they are boring. Recommend one at a time, but a huge metal basket of them all at once if you have time issues.

Sluggy Freelance ref?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Sluggy Freelance ref?

Actually that is a classic form of conditioning. It was also an amusing series of Sluggy strips :smalltongue:

[BobVosh]

Actually that is a classic form of conditioning. It was also an amusing series of Sluggy strips :smalltongue:

Yes and no. One at a time is classic. All at once is just a sluggy reference. And if you want the more original conditioning it involves dogs and drool.

I recommend stealing bits from Dudly Do Right. Get them to Eberron and literally tie one of thier friends/family/coworkers/some-cute-girl-they-saw-one-night to the magic trains they got. Then keep doing more and more quests involving the railroads until they get annoyed. Laugh and say they wanted to be railroaded.

[Totally Guy]

MY quick solutions would be to throw a "hero's choice" at them with increasing regularity.

Then you could do an NPC with a clearly flawed plan and have the NPC ask for advice. They reiterate the plan and ask the same question. This took a good portion of one of my session and went from an awful plan to one that actually killed the BBEG that encounter... which surprisingly was very workable in my game.

[SilverSheriff]

If your CoDzilla is so powerful it can solo anything you run into, it doesn't really matter if your party sucks and doesn't pay attention. RP-wise, you lead by following your own path and allow your 'followers' to trail in your wake.

My Character isn't CoDzilla, He is more like Scoutzilla.

I make a killer Scout.


This happens, and it up to the "natural leader" to keep it under control. It's usually a mixture of personal confidence, competence with the rules, familiarity with gaming conventions, and speaking out - some folks do just defer to the guy who seems to know what he's doing.
First of all, if you don't like leading: don't lead. Ask other players what they'd like to do, and provide suggestions. Sit back and indulge in a little RP while everyone else does their own thing. If something important comes up, then grab the reins, but otherwise hang back.


The thing is my character is supposed to be the rebelious member of the party who is more likely to run away to do personal errands than to help his fellow Humanoid, he has been forced into a position he should never even hear mentioned. But I guess that is how all great heroes started...

He does in fact spark ideas in peoples minds due to being an exceptionally Intelligent being. However the Black Half-Dragon (the Rogue) in my ground has had a little sidequest involving him killing one of my Character's friends right in front of his eyes just to join a Chaos-Assassin's Guild (they kill to keep chaos in existance) after that the Half-Dragon was happy enough to stand around picking his nose, when I angrily mentioned that we might actually be wanted by the authorities now, (after I grabbed my character's Friends' Body) we escaped the Githzerai City and headed to the next location (which is where the arguement about me doing everything came up, my character not trusting the Dragon enough to let him check traps because of the killing of my friend and repeated stealing attempts of his body so he could take his skull for food and a Trophy, he even went as far as to bribing the Cleric not to raise the friend from death). It seems that everything he does is counter-productive to my characters leadership, and everything else seems to be "whats the next stop for the train to plotsville?"


If you don't like that, then face it - you like to lead. Feel free to "guide" your fellow party members through actions, but keep them involved. Tell the Party Rogue to go scout ahead; tell the Party Wizard to detect magic; tell the Party Fighter to stand in front of you. This little push is usually enough to get a player moving, and once they start rolling they usually end up going somewhere. Don't try to do everything yourself; even if you could do it on your own, bring along at least one more PC to "watch your back" if nothing else. The one thing you can't do is sit around bemoaning your luck. If you don't like to lead, don't, but then don't get antsy when things don't go the way you think they should. If you do lead, then do it willingly, and in your own particular idiom; lead from the front, lead from the back, or lead by suggestion - your choice.

As posted before I hate leading and as posted above the Black Half-Dragon is being counter-Productive to my unwanted leadership, which makes it even harder to lead. To be honest I'm the Joker in the group, when I get annoyed I start Cracking Jokes (I also only get to see 2 of the guys who play once a week, we are friends from Highschool, so It's nice to be able to talk and joke with these guys) which then, for some whacky reason I get an XP deduction which multiplies by 3 everytime it happens, probably the DM's way of saying "enough crazy comes from him, don't you start too." I hate Leading this group because I can't lead the way that is close to comfortable.

[Mewtarthio]

Er, BPG, it sounds like your issues go beyond just being in an unwanted leadership position...

[SilverSheriff]

Er, BPG, it sounds like your issues go beyond just being in an unwanted leadership position...

Yeah, but I'm less of a Leader and more of a Parent guiding children around, I don't want to be either.

[Kantolin]

One thing...


They also seem overly cautious as well, taking every possible chance they get to have extended rests, between every other fight on average.

This could possibly stem from the DMing style. Some DMs prefer a more gritty feel, where doing the heroic thing is liable to get you killed - in which the more caution, the better in most cases.

There are probably multiple ways to handle this, but my personal preference in most cases is to just talk to the players.

[Kizara]

Yeah, but I'm less of a Leader and more of a Parent guiding children around, I don't want to be either.

Honestly, I repeat my suggestion to try to find enjoyment at the table via powergaming.

Show them how to be effective, lead by example. Be strong and powerful enough that if they don't follow your lead, you can just go and do it anyways and succeed (with more difficulty, less success, take longer etc, but you can manage).

You say you "play a mean scout". Why don't you post your scout build? I mean, its possible, but I doubt your scout is as overbearingly powerful as needed to make what I'm suggesting work.


Really, the other options are:

1) Silly crap like "go find another game" etc. Why do people always suggest this? Maybe games go on trees for them, but most have trouble finding a group.
Also here is "solve problem with OOC violence". Nobody actually does this, stop suggesting it. It's rarely funny anymore.

2) Lead them into a TPK. Don't make it obvious, and it helps if you can have the DM in on it. Its fine if they blame you for it, I bet they won't expect you to lead them in the future, and will be more inclinded to come up with and execute their own ideas, since yours are obviously not working (caused them all to die etc).
Alternately, don't lead them at all, do something else (minor RP) etc as they fumble around and acts like tards. If the pacing and foolery start to annoy you too much, take matters into your own hands (see my primary suggestion).




As far as making unimaginative/unegaged players pick it up a bit: challenge them. The DM needs to make his game dangerous (in terms of level of difficulty of opponents and tactical skill they are played at, not random save-or-die traps), cutting-edge challenging but make it clear that he is doing this.

Make it clear that if people don't pull their weight, act intelligently and use good tactics, they will have character deaths. Be willing to restart the whole campaign if needed if they get a TPK. When they adapt to this more demanding style, they will naturally be more engaged and take an active role in playing the game. Or, they will get frustrated, overwhelmed and quit. Ethier way, your problem is gone.

[random11]

Ok, so I've noticed that my normal DnD group (who I DM for) are rather...boring in DnD. I actually asked them at one point if they wanted me to railroad them or not, and they said they wanted to be. Now, if I really thought they would have the most fun being railroaded all over, I don't think that's true. (if it is, they might as well just play more videogames) I definitely know that I would have more fun if they were doing things other than "I go in the dungeon and kill the stuff" and "I sleep in the tavern for the night".


Like the old saying goes: You can lead adventurers to water, but you can't expect everyone to figure out how to cross the water using only a fireball spell, two long swords and a squirrel.

You can and should offer them new game styles, at the very least it's worth a try, but if they only enjoy or only capable of "hack and slash", they will simply fail and/or lose interest unless you return their dungeon crawling D&D.



They also seem overly cautious as well, taking every possible chance they get to have extended rests, between every other fight on average.


Luckily, this is a much simpler problem - Make all their quests somehow time limited.
It can be because an enemy is chasing them, because they have a deadline until the orcs attack the village, or just because they are not the only adventurers in the world looking for that hidden treasure.
One or two times when they "oversleep" and discover in the morning that a group of competitors got their gold, fame and glory, should teach them a lesson.

Of course, if they learn, try not to misuse this by creating impossible situations that required rest to survive. Balance is everything.

[Satyr]

The traditional way would be granting extras for imaginative, creative or brave actions and penalizing dull, unimaginative or overtly cautious actions.
You can introduce a resource like action points that are gained or regained through cool actions, acts of heroism, quotable lines and general awsomeness and which are lost through cowardry, abrasive apearances and refusal to contribute to the game.

As a similar note, inventive and creative explanations could grant a bonus to all kind of checks and rolls, interesting and witty background stories grant bonus points, a significant amount of XP comes from roleplaying / acting, etc.

The important thing is to create a stimulus for their participation to the game, and when the group is mostly interested into beating and slicing no-name monsters, a bonus to ingame activities based on metalevel behaviour can make a difference.

If this does not work, look for another stimulus that suits your group.
Just don't spoil them with too regular or too many benefits. Make them rare, so they are precious.

[SilverSheriff]

You say you "play a mean scout". Why don't you post your scout build? I mean, its possible, but I doubt your scout is as overbearingly powerful as needed to make what I'm suggesting work.

most of my build relies on the Scout Class (from Complete Adventurer page 11-13) and adds 2-3 dips in Fighter to get the all the feats I need by level 15 (currently level 10 at the moment, so I'm almost done, giving me the ability to freely dip into whatever class I want to after).

Dodge + Mobility + Spring Attack + Fast Movement + Skirmish (1 - 5 bonus to Armour class and 1d6 - 5d6 bonus to Damage)

After all, the scout relies on his Mobility in combat. being able to move before and after an attack is an opportunity for me to deal a lot of damage and less chance of being hit.

The whole build makes up for a Fighter, a Ranger and a Rogue (except in cities, due to the lack of Bluff and Gather Information).

I'll post the exact build later when I can be bothered to type everything I see on my sheet.:sigh:

[koldstare]

most of my build relies on the Scout Class (from Complete Adventurer page 11-13) and adds 2-3 dips in Fighter to get the all the feats I need by level 15 (currently level 10 at the moment, so I'm almost done, giving me the ability to freely dip into whatever class I want to after).

Dodge + Mobility + Spring Attack + Fast Movement + Skirmish (1 - 5 bonus to Armour class and 1d6 - 5d6 bonus to Damage)

After all, the scout relies on his Mobility in combat. being able to move before and after an attack is an opportunity for me to deal a lot of damage and less chance of being hit.

The whole build makes up for a Fighter, a Ranger and a Rogue (except in cities, due to the lack of Bluff and Gather Information).

I'll post the exact build later when I can be bothered to type everything I see on my sheet.:sigh:
If you don't already have them I would suggest Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz, to gain extra attacks on your spring attack.

[valadil]

I'm going to disagree with the common suggestion of forcing them to be creative. It can work, but if you force too hard the players will get frustrated. I've seen a whole table of players lock up and stop playing because they wouldn't look at a situation outside of the scope of d20.

What I will suggest is rewarding creativity when you see it, even if it is implausible.

Here's an example. Way back in middle school we were playing an exploration type game. We saw something shiny at the bottom of a lake but couldn't reach it. Swim checks wouldn't get us deep enough. So I suggested we invert our waterskins and have the strongest swimmer take those so he can get a breath or two of air mid swim. Realistically speaking, bringing the waterskins would make the swimmer float. But the GM liked the idea. He encouraged creativity by making the idea work, giving us the gold at the bottom, and giving me a whole lot of bonus XP. I haven't forgotten it and I'm still MacGuyvering 10 years later.

Anyway, if your players are giving you the same answers to problems, throw new problems at them. If they don't have an answer that already works they'll have to come up with something new. Sometimes they'll stumble upon something new and creative.

[monty]

The correct response here is always: more cowbell RP

I have a fever...and the only prescription...is more roleplaying!

[Lord Tataraus]

To the OP I have a new suggestion for you: try a new system with a heavy amount of RP required. You can find many free ones that are pretty good and if you have an extreme case I recommend my slightly-modified version of Risus (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm). Basically, I add one crucial element: Plot Points. Everyone starts with 10 plot points. Plot points can be spent to add 2 dice to your roll, regain 2 lost dice, or perform some ridiculous feat or reduce another player's or plot points on a 2-for-1 basis. Plot points are measures of a player's importance to the story, if something happens that makes a player a bit redundant, instant PP lose; however, if they become more important (such as gain a sidequest) they gain PP. And finally, whenever they lose a contest, they can lose 1 PP to regenerate all lost cliche dice. With this system, the players have to actively work to become important to the story, the GM can't give them sidequests on a whim, they need to RP to get it. If a player slacks off and is boring, they start to lose PP extremely fast and become unimportant to the story and fade out of existence until he can convince the other players to make him important again.

[Deth Muncher]

Like the old saying goes: You can lead adventurers to water, but you can't expect everyone to figure out how to cross the water using only a fireball spell, two long swords and a squirrel.


Incedentally, how does an adventurer cross a body of water using only the spell Fireball, two longswords and a squirrel?

My vote is to slaughter the squirrel, using its skin to tie your feet to the lonswords, then cast Fireball behind you, causing the force to propel you foreward.

That is, of course, if DnD used real-world physics.

[SilverSheriff]

If you don't already have them I would suggest Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz, to gain extra attacks on your spring attack.

which books are those feats in?