V is a hermaphrodite!

[Tafkan]

What? It totally makes sense for... "It" to be both male and female. No proof, just a completely random idea I had. :p

[amuletts]

Could be. Or s/he could be undecided as to a gender identity. I know people like that.

[Prowl]

V is married, so I believe the 'undecided' option is out.

[Last_resort_33]

V is married, so I believe the 'undecided' option is out.

Ummmmmm..... huh.... well...... Lets just say.... You're wrong.... and leave it at that...
I'm married to a genderqueer person... It is not a barrier to marriage.
Also, instead of Hermaphrodite, it is more polite to say that V may have an intersex condition.

It is an entirely possible that V does have an intersex condition or is genderqueer, however it is more likely that ze* simply does not wish to reveal hir* gender identity simply because ze doesn't want the rest of the party to treat hir differently because of it...

Either that or ze is being deliberately obtuse.


*widely accepted as a gender neutral pronoun in the Trans community

[Zevox]

Actually, given V's reaction to the matter in On the Origin of PCs, it seems most likely to me that V just doesn't care if anyone knows her sex. (I suppose I should spoiler this, although really, it's not much, if anything, of a spoiler...)
She considers it irrelevant when Roy notes that the form she filled out has an ink blot over the "gender" section - less important than the off chance that she may spill more ink on her robe correcting the mistake on the form. To her, it's just not an important aspect of her identity
Zevox

[Optimystik]

Ummmmmm..... huh.... well...... Lets just say.... You're wrong.... and leave it at that...
I'm married to a genderqueer person... It is not a barrier to marriage.
Also, instead of Hermaphrodite, it is more polite to say that V may have an intersex condition.

It is an entirely possible that V does have an intersex condition or is genderqueer, however it is more likely that ze* simply does not wish to reveal hir* gender identity simply because ze doesn't want the rest of the party to treat hir differently because of it...

Either that or ze is being deliberately obtuse.


*widely accepted as a gender neutral pronoun in the Trans community

This entire post reminds me of panel 3 of this comic. (http://www.xkcd.com/145/)

[Scarlet Knight]

To determine V's gender, we just have to deduce what we know of Haley. Since she shares a room with V, it could mean:

a) V is female.
b) V is male but gay.
c) V is male but a eunich.
d) Haley is a slut who gets it on with V every night irregardless of whether V is male, female, or both!

Wait...sorry, that doesn't clear up anything, does it....
:haley::vaarsuvius:

[TheSummoner]

I prefer to justify that bedroom situation with...

"Regardless of V's actual gender, Haley feels comfortable sharing a room with V because V is married and even if V WAS male, V wouldn't try anything for that reason. Also, if the Order was to be attacked in the night, Haley wouldn't be alone against the attackers."

I personally think of V as male (mostly because V has a square body shape with no noticable curves, even when naked after the whole turned into a lizard thing), but I could easily be wrong.

As for the ze/hir thing, the last thing I'm gonna put up with is people trying to shove a bunch of made up nonsence on me because they're overly sensitive. Political correctness is a load of garbage anyways.

[Zevox]

I find it amusing when people complain about words being "made up." All words are made up. There's no logical reason why new ones cannot be created when existing ones do not adequately express some concept or idea, such as with gender-neutral pronouns.

Zevox

[David Argall]

It seems logical enough, but the essence of V's sex is that it is a mystery. So it seems likely we will never find out.

[Assassin89]

It seems logical enough, but the essence of V's sex is that it is a mystery. So it seems likely we will never find out.

We will find out at the discretion of Rich. We must also consider some material in OotPCs or wherever V's past is talked about.
If the wizard who took V as an apprentice would only take a male student, V would either be a man or a lady who dresses like a man. Similar case for a female apprentice, but a better method for determining V's gender is to place an antimagic circle and grab V's lower regions.

[Raging Gene Ray]

... but a better method is to place an antimagic circle and grab V's lower regions.

That's HOW the strip should end! With everyone gathering in peace and harmony to fondle V's elf-parts.

[Assassin89]

That's HOW the strip should end! With everyone gathering in peace and harmony to fondle V's elf-parts.

Rich would probably not approve of that and any fondling would occur off panel. If there is any in-panel fondling it will be done by V's mate...
maybe V's mate could answer the question.

[TheSummoner]

I find it amusing when people complain about words being "made up." All words are made up.

Language evolved over time. Sure, all words were originally made up when there was an actual need for it, but theres no need for nonsence speak.


There's no logical reason why new ones cannot be created when existing ones do not adequately express some concept or idea

Theres no logical reason to create new words when our language is complex enough to express ideas as is.


gender-neutral pronouns.

It is gender neutral. He can also be considered gender neutral, which is why Rich uses he when referring to V. However, I personally consider a trans-gender person no different than what they were born as with the addition of mutilated genitals. As for a hermaphrodite, born with both types... whatever they become, usually women for medical reasons.

As for everyone fondling V's elf-itude, it might be safe while they have him/her restrained in the anti-magic circle, but as soon as he/she gets out... Explosive runes all around!

And V's mate will likely be just as genderless as V is... if we even get to see V's mate.

Could anyone else imagine someone ripping off V's robe only to have nothing underneath. Absolutly nothing...

[Raging Gene Ray]

Could anyone else imagine someone ripping off V's robe only to have nothing underneath. Absolutly nothing...

So V was just an illusion the whole time...
By the way, V has been naked without any clothes on (right after being unpolymorphed). The whole party saw him/her, the only reason none of the readers saw anything was V's speech bubbles blocked everything out.

[Warlord JK]

Readers are the only ones who don't know what V's gender is. The party knows what it is.

[TheSummoner]

Actually, the dragon's tail was covering V the entire time V was naked. Its possible that the Order saw V from another angle and thus saw the amazing elf-itude, but you cant be sure. If they did see V behind the dragon, we could simply scour all the comics after #186 and any jokes made by them about V being male or female would be enough to count as confirmation.

[Alysar]

I think that a very important question is, does V actually understand that no one else knows what gender V is?

The fact that
V told Roy to fill in the gender line on her application himself
seems to imply that V is not aware.

[Trazoi]

Actually, given V's reaction to the matter in On the Origin of PCs, it seems most likely to me that V just doesn't care if anyone knows her sex. (I suppose I should spoiler this, although really, it's not much, if anything, of a spoiler...)
She considers it irrelevant when Roy notes that the form she filled out has an ink blot over the "gender" section - less important than the off chance that she may spill more ink on her robe correcting the mistake on the form. To her, it's just not an important aspect of her identity
Zevox
More Origins of PC spoilers:

The way I read that situation, V felt it was irrelevant that info was blotted out because, to V, V's gender is clearly evident. It'd be like if I were to go to a job interview and leave that bit out - I'd kind of expect the interviewer to get that question right just by looking at me. :smallwink:

Of course just like us Roy can't figure it out, but can't think of a way to ask V without it coming across as either insulting or making him look like a total idiot.

That's the same way I read V's lack of comments over Roy's gender change later on. While it could be that V does indeed see gender as irrelevant, I like to think of V being completely gender-blind with respect to humans as well.

[Greep]

Readers are the only ones who don't know what V's gender is. The party knows what it is.

nah, there are numerous occasions where the party members don't know. Roy in OtooPCs and and somewhere recently durkon I think.

[Flame of Anor]

Political correctness is a load of garbage anyways.

Hear, hear! And heam, heam, too, so no one is offended.

Also, my impression of V's gender has always been that:

1) V does not really think much about gender, which fits with his/her mostly logical way of thought;
2) It has never occurred to V that others couldn't tell his/her gender, as elves would be able to tell easily;
3) V would happily tell anyone his/her gender, but everyone except Haley has been too embarrassed to ask.

[Greep]

one of these days, in some calm before the storm days, I'm betting the order will try and trick V into revealing it.

What I can't believe is that they just don't ask haley!

[TheSummoner]

Haley knows? Was this in one of the compilation books?

I don't remember that from the online strips... I suppose the two of them sharing a room implies it, but unless its directly stated, I don't put much faith in it.

[Haven]

I wouldn't be surprised if Haley knows - they have been friends for a long time, it seems.

[Greep]

Haley knows? Was this in one of the compilation books?

I don't remember that from the online strips... I suppose the two of them sharing a room implies it, but unless its directly stated, I don't put much faith in it.

That's pretty much what I'm referring to. Sometime, V'd have to change hir robes (Hopefully, terrible CHA lol). Wouldn't be canon, but implied yeah.

[TheSummoner]

Sometime, V'd have to change hir robes (Hopefully, terrible CHA lol). Wouldn't be canon, but implied yeah.

True, but that doesnt mean V would do it in front of Haley. Perhaps V wouldn't want Haley to see, or perhaps V thinks Haley wouldn't want him/her to change in front of her and changes when Haley isn't in the room for that reason. Or maybe V just never changes his/her robes lol.

[Greep]

hmm, and I guess Haley wouldn't want to see what V's <9 charisma is under the hood.

[imp_fireball]

Elves aren't hermaphrodites. Ever. Fool.

[Prime32]

Elves aren't hermaphrodites. Ever. Fool.
Umm.... humans are hermaphrodites sometimes. How would you know that about elves?

[Greep]

Umm.... humans are hermaphrodites sometimes. How would you know that about elves?

could be referring to the fact that in medicine hermaphrodites are called intersexual now. Not like anyone uses that term I think, though.

[Tengu_temp]

To determine V's gender, we just have to deduce what we know of Haley. Since she shares a room with V, it could mean:

a) V is female.
b) V is male but gay.
c) V is male but a eunich.
d) Haley is a slut who gets it on with V every night irregardless of whether V is male, female, or both!


e) Haley knows that V is happily married and won't pull any moves on her.
f) Neither Haley nor V are sex-crazed. Seriously, where did the idea that if two people of opposite genders room together, then they MUST have sex come from?



1) V does not really think much about gender, which fits with his/her mostly logical way of thought;
2) It has never occurred to V that others couldn't tell his/her gender, as elves would be able to tell easily;
3) V would happily tell anyone his/her gender, but everyone except Haley has been too embarrassed to ask.

Your impressions are very accurate and I agree with them.

[Kaytara]

Hear, hear! And heam, heam, too, so no one is offended.
Also, my impression of V's gender has always been that:
1) V does not really think much about gender, which fits with his/her mostly logical way of thought;
2) It has never occurred to V that others couldn't tell his/her gender, as elves would be able to tell easily;
3) V would happily tell anyone his/her gender, but everyone except Haley has been too embarrassed to ask.


Your impressions are very accurate and I agree with them.

Thirded! V's a intellectual-type and a High elf to boot. If you're going to be around for hundreds of years, getting offspring won't be of a very high priority. Hence the reduced role of sex in elf life. That's pretty much how I always saw the situation as well.
I mean, I don't see how anyone can believe that Vaarsuvius is deliberately pulling some kind of elaborate deception attempt in order to conceal hir gender!

[Closet_Skeleton]

There's always the possibility that V is male and Haley wanted to room with him because she knows he has no interest in cross-race romance (as well as the marriage thing, but for all we know, homosexual marriage could be legal in elf land).

[King of Nowhere]

Originally Posted by Flame of Anor View Post
Hear, hear! And heam, heam, too, so no one is offended.
Also, my impression of V's gender has always been that:
1) V does not really think much about gender, which fits with his/her mostly logical way of thought;
2) It has never occurred to V that others couldn't tell his/her gender, as elves would be able to tell easily;
3) V would happily tell anyone his/her gender, but everyone except Haley has been too embarrassed to ask.
I'm another one to support this, except for the third point, I believe if someone asked hir V would answer something like "This is not important"

[Scarlet Knight]

e) Haley knows that V is happily married and won't pull any moves on her.
f) Neither Haley nor V are sex-crazed. Seriously, where did the idea that if two people of opposite genders room together, then they MUST have sex come from?


I don't know if V is happily married because s/he rarely speaks of hir spouse & they has been away from each other for so long. Although it may not be long in elven terms...

Haley can be sex crazed. She nearly did Elan in front of everyone in comic #468 & it took Belkar ( BELKAR! Of all people!) to stop the show.

As for the opposite genders rooming together, well, if you add variables such as alcohol (ie :belkar:& :vaarsuvius: ), distance from spouse, race, charisma, &/or time since last having sex into the equation, the odds of people having sex increases as each night passes, perhaps even exponentially!

It could explain why V is so eager to find Haley...:smallredface:

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Oh, for the sake of .... :smallyuk:

Vaarsuvius is obviously a male. He looks like a male physically, he has a basically male personality (a snooty, intellectual one, yes, but still male), and a relative disinterest in sex isn't necessarily a sign of being a hermaphrodite. In fact, I'd think that in that case, the opposite might be true, since the possibilities would be doubled. :smallwink:

The whole thing is a joke off the fact that the readership can't tell if someone wearing a robe (although the body shape shown in it is male) and with long hair is male or female, for whatever reason.

We know that V's married and that, as you'd expect from an extremely long-lived species that could easily overpopulate its environment if it popped out a kid every year or two, he has a low reproductive urge.

To me, he comes across as an intellectual, rather aristocratic male who is steadily and permanently married and simply has little interest in sexual matters, probably because, as I and others have pointed out, he's an elf and doesn't need a high sex drive. And probably comes from a culture that doesn't put sex on a pedestal, either.

There are a lot of remarks scattered through the comic that suggest V simply doesn't understand the high sex drive of the shorter-lived beings around him. Check out the sequence where Roy is a woman -- V basically doesn't even get what's going on, if I recall correctly. He simply doesn't think in that way.

So Haley shared a room with him either because 1. she can't tell whether he's male or female either, or 2. from being around him for many months, she knows that he just has no sexual interest in her at all.

[Neithan]

V is simply an elf. And as we've seen no other elves so far, s/he is probably just like any other elf wo/man. :smallbiggrin:

Even though it's about a comic character, I'm pleasantly surprised about the great understanding of gender-ambiguity people show here.
You'd rather expect childish gay jokes, especially on teh internets.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

V is simply an elf. And as we've seen no other elves so far, s/he is probably just like any other elf wo/man. :smallbiggrin:


On the contrary, we've definitely got a female elf in this strip --

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

-- identified as such, and looking at her, I'd say that V's body type is unambiguously male.

Honestly, is our culture so steeped in short-hairedness (now there's a word for you :smallsmile: ) that it's impossible to think that a character with long hair can be anything except female or homosexual? :smallconfused:

P.S. The username is supposed to be "Carnivorous_Bean" -- I guess I'll have to get that changed when that becomes possible again.

[Optimystik]

I find it amusing when people complain about words being "made up." All words are made up. There's no logical reason why new ones cannot be created when existing ones do not adequately express some concept or idea, such as with gender-neutral pronouns.

Zevox

"They" has been used that way since the 1300s, so that's good enough for me. But this thread is on a one-way ticket to lockdown.


Readers are the only ones who don't know what V's gender is. The party knows what it is.

Durkon, at least, does not. Haley probably does, since V told her about his marriage before anyone else (and thus may have gone into detail); and Belkar might, but the whole party? Nope.


On the contrary, we've definitely got a female elf in this strip --

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

-- identified as such, and looking at her, I'd say that V's body type is unambiguously male.

Honestly, is our culture so steeped in short-hairedness (now there's a word for you :smallsmile: ) that it's impossible to think that a character with long hair can be anything except female or homosexual? :smallconfused:

Lirian is not wearing robes. If she was, her figure would likely be as difficult to pinpoint as V's is. I think he's male too, but saying it's a foregone conclusion is a bit much.

[KilltheToy]

Here's my theory:

Varrsuvius simply trancends normal genders. V is neither male nor female. V just is.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Lirian is not wearing robes. If she was, her figure would likely be as difficult to pinpoint as V's is. I think he's male too, but saying it's a foregone conclusion is a bit much.

This V-debating is kind of fun. :smallbiggrin:

In any case, the ill-fated Sangwaan, as shown in the later frames of this strip --

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html

-- would seem to lend a bit more evidence to my argument. She's robed, and yet there's no doubt that she's female.

[T-O-E]

Honestly, I hope we never find out V's gender. It doesn't really matter.

[Kaytara]

This V-debating is kind of fun. :smallbiggrin:

In any case, the ill-fated Sangwaan, as shown in the later frames of this strip --

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html

-- would seem to lend a bit more evidence to my argument. She's robed, and yet there's no doubt that she's female.

She's human. It's also possible she's just wearing form-hugging robes. And V's an elf, scrawny and lanky by definition. Plus, V's a character, an individual and can be however the authors wants hir to be. There are enough humans in real life who don't look very feminine or are just flat-chested or borderline anorexic. Why can't there be elves like that?

More to the point, during the battle in the elven forest in Start of Darkness, we see a lot of elves. Pretty much all of them are more or less androgynous, somewhat curvy but not voluptuous. Even closer to the point, we also see three robed spellcasters in that battle. In robes, all three of them look completely identical to Vaarsuvius in body shape.
Since the non-robed elves all look twig-like and scrawny and there's no reason to assume that spellcasters have some kind of inherent overweight problem, it's apparent that elves simply look like that when dressed in robes.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

She's human. It's also possible she's just wearing form-hugging robes. And V's an elf, scrawny and lanky by definition. Plus, V's a character, an individual and can be however the authors wants hir to be. There are enough humans in real life who don't look very feminine or are just flat-chested or borderline anorexic. Why can't there be elves like that?

More to the point, during the battle in the elven forest in Start of Darkness, we see a lot of elves. Pretty much all of them are more or less androgynous, somewhat curvy but not voluptuous. Even closer to the point, we also see three robed spellcasters in that battle. In robes, all three of them look completely identical to Vaarsuvius in body shape.
Since the non-robed elves all look twig-like and scrawny and there's no reason to assume that spellcasters have some kind of inherent overweight problem, it's apparent that elves simply look like that when dressed in robes.

Or, it could also be apparent that they're all male. :smallwink: Just sayin'.

[Scarlet Knight]

This V-debating is kind of fun. :smallbiggrin:

Amen, sister!

[TheSummoner]

Lirian is an exception to the rule... the only elf so far with a distinct gender...

And that was probably only because of the romance with Dorukan.

[Kaytara]

Or, it could also be apparent that they're all male. :smallwink: Just sayin'.

(I assume you mean the robed spellcasters?) Not really. I'll elaborate. We have non-robed elves - a LOT of them. It's fair to assume the soldiers aren't all girls and are in fact gender mixed. Thus, we have elves with similar body shapes some of whom should be male. (None of them are as bulky as the robed elves look to be.) And we have robed elves whose body shapes are vastly different from the non-robed ones. Hence, the assumption that that is simply how elves look in robes.

[pendell]

Uhmm .. isn't gender sort of optional for high-level magic-users in a D&D fantasy setting? Once the character learns polymorph self, shape change, or alter self (or others?) the character can be whatever sex they want to be, for as long as they want to be.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Closet_Skeleton]

-- identified as such, and looking at her, I'd say that V's body type is unambiguously male.

V's androgynousness is a retcon based on a joke that appeared on the forums, all evidence that points towards V being male that appeared before this retcon are null and void.

[Zevox]

Language evolved over time. Sure, all words were originally made up when there was an actual need for it, but theres no need for nonsence speak.
And why is it "nonsense speak"? When there's an actual use for the new words, they're no more nonsense than any others. Actually, considering all words are created in order to express a meaning, there really is no such thing as "nonsense speak" - just words that sound strange or nonsensical to individual people.


Theres no logical reason to create new words when our language is complex enough to express ideas as is.
Yet quite clearly many people feel it is not.


It is gender neutral.
"It" also carries the connotation of being a nonliving object in most peoples' minds. It's easy to understand why people wouldn't wish to use it to describe a person whose sex they either don't know or doesn't fit in either male or female categories.


He can also be considered gender neutral, which is why Rich uses he when referring to V.
Yet "he" has the default meaning of being the male pronoun, making it easy to see why many would consider it inadequate at best as a gender-neutral pronoun.


However, I personally consider a trans-gender person no different than what they were born as with the addition of mutilated genitals.
I agree here, actually.


As for a hermaphrodite, born with both types... whatever they become, usually women for medical reasons.
And for hermaphrodites that don't get surgically remade as one or the other? Not common these days, granted, but it happens, and can of course turn up in fiction whenever an author wants. Or for beings which actually possess neither sex organ (granted, a complete fiction, but you yourself suggested it as a possible explanation of V in your post)?


"They" has been used that way since the 1300s, so that's good enough for me.
"They" also has the default meaning of multiple people, making it potentially confusing, and thus easy to see why many would consider it inadequate as a gender-neutral pronoun.


Uhmm .. isn't gender sort of optional for high-level magic-users in a D&D fantasy setting? Once the character learns polymorph self, shape change, or alter self (or others?) the character can be whatever sex they want to be, for as long as they want to be.
A good point. I doubt V really cares enough to change her original sex, but if she wanted to, she likely could, and we'd never be the wiser. Polymorph Any Object could even make this permanent, although we don't know if V can cast that yet (highest level spell we've seen her cast is Prismatic Spray, which is 7th level, and PAO is 8th).

Zevox

[Optimystik]

And why is it "nonsense speak"? When there's an actual use for the new words, they're no more nonsense than any others. Actually, considering all words are created in order to express a meaning, there really is no such thing as "nonsense speak" - just words that sound strange or nonsensical to individual people.

Defend it all you like; "xe" and "hirs" will always look and sound ridiculous to me. How would you even pronounce them? You can't tell me THAT wouldn't be confusing. "Ur" and "ppl" have become fairly widespread due to text-messaging (and lolcats...), but that doesn't make them any less nonsensical.


This V-debating is kind of fun. :smallbiggrin:

In any case, the ill-fated Sangwaan, as shown in the later frames of this strip --

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html

-- would seem to lend a bit more evidence to my argument. She's robed, and yet there's no doubt that she's female.

Given that she's not an elf, she lends absolutely zero evidence to your argument.

[Zevox]

Defend it all you like; "xe" and "hirs" will always look and sound ridiculous to me.
True, but that's a matter of personal opinion, to which you're more than entitled. It also fits under what I said about words sounding odd or nonsensical to individual people.


How would you even pronounce them? You can't tell me THAT wouldn't be confusing.
For your examples, "hir" would, yes, since it would likely sound the same as or close to "her." "Xe" I haven't actually seen anywhere, but I would guess it would be pronounced "ze" (which makes me wonder why you wouldn't just use that as the spelling instead, the way Last Resort 33 did early in this thread), which wouldn't be confusing at all (unless the context of the conversation makes someone think you were referring to the letter "Z" I suppose). Assuming, of course, it had reached the point where it was widespread enough that people would be familiar with it - new words are always going to be initially confusing due to people being unfamiliar with them.


"Ur" and "ppl" have become fairly widespread due to text-messaging (and lolcats...), but that doesn't make them any less nonsensical.
True, but that's because they're just shortened versions of existing words whose sole purpose is to facilitate quicker text-messaging.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

For your examples, "hir" would, yes, since it would likely sound the same as or close to "her." "Xe" I haven't actually seen anywhere, but I would guess it would be pronounced "ze" (which makes me wonder why you wouldn't just use that as the spelling instead, the way Last Resort 33 did early in this thread), which wouldn't be confusing at all (unless the context of the conversation makes someone think you were referring to the letter "Z" I suppose). Assuming, of course, it had reached the point where it was widespread enough that people would be familiar with it - new words are always going to be initially confusing due to people being unfamiliar with them.

"Hir" could be pronounced "hurr" or "higher". Since it's not a real word, we have to go with consensus. I got "xe" from this issue of XKCD (http://xkcd.com/145/) which I posted earlier in the thread. Again, Randall sums up my point of view on this.


True, but that's because they're just shortened versions of existing words whose sole purpose is to facilitate quicker text-messaging.

And "hirs" is a shortened version of "that person's". The language is not inadequate by any means.

[Zevox]

"Hir" could be pronounced "hurr" or "higher". Since it's not a real word, we have to go with consensus.
The former of which still sounds like "her," and the latter of which makes it sound like another existing word. Still confusing, as I admitted earlier.


Again, Randall sums up my point of view on this.
Who's Randall? I don't see anyone by that name posting in this thread...


And "hirs" is a shortened version of "that person's". The language is not inadequate by any means.
"That person's" can't work as a pronoun, since the whole point of a pronoun is to be a shorter substitute for a name. Not many first names are longer than the phrase "that person's," at least not in English-speaking cultures.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

Who's Randall? I don't see anyone by that name posting in this thread...

Sorry, he's the author of XKCD, who I agree with on many points. Should have been more clear :smallwink:



"That person's" can't work as a pronoun, since the whole point of a pronoun is to be a shorter substitute for a name. Not many first names are longer than the phrase "that person's," at least not in English-speaking cultures.

Zevox

It still gets the point across. But if you want something shorter, "V's" also works and is even used in the comic.

[Zevox]

Sorry, he's the author of XKCD, who I agree with on many points. Should have been more clear :smallwink:
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Should have figured that out I suppose.


It still gets the point across. But if you want something shorter, "V's" also works and is even used in the comic.
It does, but is a rather cumbersome way to do it compared to existing pronouns for males and females - you're probably better off just repeating their name, since it is likely to be shorter than that phrase, but that will sound awkward given English-speakers are accustomed to using pronouns. And yes, V works in this case, since fortunately Vaarsuvius' name can be conveniently shortened to one letter, but that isn't going to be the case with all ambiguously-gendered/sexless/hermaphrodite/etc people/characters.

Zevox

[Assassin89]

I believe that a few Irregular Webcomic could handle some questions.

#123 (http://irregularwebcomic.net/123.html) for why elves have not overpopulated the other races, if they are interested in romance.

#1964 (http://irregularwebcomic.net/1964.html) for handling the use of gender pronouns. Elves are not men or women. They can either be male or female.

[Kaytara]

For your examples, "hir" would, yes, since it would likely sound the same as or close to "her." "Xe" I haven't actually seen anywhere, but I would guess it would be pronounced "ze" (which makes me wonder why you wouldn't just use that as the spelling instead, the way Last Resort 33 did early in this thread), which wouldn't be confusing at all (unless the context of the conversation makes someone think you were referring to the letter "Z" I suppose). Assuming, of course, it had reached the point where it was widespread enough that people would be familiar with it - new words are always going to be initially confusing due to people being unfamiliar with them.



Amusingly, 'ze' sounds like "sie", which is German for "she". XD Not that that is in any way important...
I think it's best to use V or ve when referring to Vaarsuvius, but that's only a replacement for "she" and "he". We still need one for "him" and "her" and, given that the two words have different endings and we can't seem to come up with anything that would fit ambiguously in-between...

[mikeejimbo]

What if we don't know the person's name?

[Flame of Anor]

What if we don't know the person's name?

You will BE KILL BY DEMONS!

[King of Nowhere]

Uhmm .. isn't gender sort of optional for high-level magic-users in a D&D fantasy setting? Once the character learns polymorph self, shape change, or alter self (or others?) the character can be whatever sex they want to be, for as long as they want to be.


I've never thought of it, but it's totally true!
Not only Rich can decide at every moment V's gender, but V hirself can decide hir gender at any moment. Also, once s\he did the choice, it's not binding for the future.
So, hir real gender isn't really important :smalleek:

[Weiser_Cain]

V is male or female but being a wizard *thunderbolt! thunderbolt!* overshadows all of that.

[Child Conscript]

If we want to find out what V's gender is, look in the early comics as Rich pointed out in Dungeon Crawling fools that V's Gender was not supposed to be a mystery until it was being discussed on the forum.

[Last_resort_33]

Theres no logical reason to create new words when our language is complex enough to express ideas as is.


That is simply a fallacy. The language is not complicated enough to express the idea of a non gendered/intergendered person






It is gender neutral.


But rather demeaning, don't you think?


He can also be considered gender neutral, which is why Rich uses he when referring to V.

Rich uses various pronouns when considering V. The word 'He' is not gender neutral, it is distinctly male.

Do you consider male as the default gender. Don't you feel that that is rather androcentric of you? If someone called say "Ashley" sends you a letter, do you respond to it using the pronoun 'he', Obviously they can't be offended, as 'he' is the default, 'man until proven woman'... if so then you are even more rude than I originally thought.



However, I personally consider a trans-gender person no different than what they were born as with the addition of mutilated genitals.

I am very upset at this comment. For a start, I'm sure you mean Transsexual. Transgender is something entirely different, and don't think I'm being pedantic, It makes a difference to the people who it actually affects...
I would liken it to saying that "it doesn't matter if you call someone black or asian, it's basically the same thing"


As for a hermaphrodite, born with both types... whatever they become, usually women for medical reasons.
.

Usually when people are born with an intersex condition, doctors decide what sex they should be and that decision is made for them. Doctors usually only get it right half the time. People often have to undergo another round of sex reassignment surgery after they have a) reached puberty (by which time it's obviously very difficult) and b) have the money to do it... not cheap as you imagine!

On the subject of They vs ze/hir. They often causes confusion over pluralization. If you spend enough time with queer and trans people, it does actually work better, and stops you saying 'he or she' every two seconds when talking about someone of whom you don't know the gender. In short, I disagree with Randell. Clever man though he is, he attempts to be an expert on way too much.

Sorry to rant, but it upsets me when people talk about sensitive issues which they know absolutely nothing about.

[Kaytara]

If we want to find out what V's gender is, look in the early comics as Rich pointed out in Dungeon Crawling fools that V's Gender was not supposed to be a mystery until it was being discussed on the forum.

At best, we'd find out what V's gender had been. The tricky thing is that the Giant has never officially stated V's gender, so like any other thing he hasn't officially stated (like the team's concrete feats, or magic items they wear, or Haley's eye colour, etc.), he's free to change it if he feels like it. >D

[yanmaodao]

I think "they" works best as a gender neutral pronoun. It's already widespread enough that I've never seen it cause any confusion - and actually, changes involving the use of collective pronouns is relatively common in languages. I don't like "ze" or "hir", mainly because they don't really seem to work in spoken conversation.

Last_resort, I may be mistaken, but I do think "transgender" is the correct term. I address transgendered folk by the gender they identify as.

[TheSummoner]

That is simply a fallacy. The language is not complicated enough to express the idea of a non gendered/intergendered person
I suppose thats a matter of opinion.


But rather demeaning, don't you think?
Oh, without a doubt. I never said it wasn't, I merely stated it was gender neutral. In such a situation, I would probably use the word "they" instead of "it" or some baby speak nonsence, even if "they" wouldn't be proper grammar.


Rich uses various pronouns when considering V. The word 'He' is not gender neutral, it is distinctly male.
In most cases, yes. I said it CAN be gender neutral though, not that it always, or even usually is. Of course, in most cases its pretty obvious which gender any given individual is.


Do you consider male as the default gender. Don't you feel that that is rather androcentric of you? If someone called say "Ashley" sends you a letter, do you respond to it using the pronoun 'he', Obviously they can't be offended, as 'he' is the default, 'man until proven woman'... if so then you are even more rude than I originally thought.
This fits in with my above comment about gender usually being obvious. I would assume "Ashley" was female unless I had seen otherwise with my own eyes. Come to think about it, I wouldn't use a third person pronoun in a letter directly to someone anyways. I would use "You" in all cases whether the gender was obvious as in "Ashley" or I got a letter from someone I had never seen before with a non-specific name like "Alex."


I am very upset at this comment. For a start, I'm sure you mean Transsexual. Transgender is something entirely different, and don't think I'm being pedantic, It makes a difference to the people who it actually affects...
I would liken it to saying that "it doesn't matter if you call someone black or asian, it's basically the same thing"
I honestly don't give a damn if I used the wrong term. It was obvious what I meant.

Once again, white, black, asian... usually obvious by looking at the person.


Usually when people are born with an intersex condition, doctors decide what sex they should be and that decision is made for them. Doctors usually only get it right half the time. People often have to undergo another round of sex reassignment surgery after they have a) reached puberty (by which time it's obviously very difficult) and b) have the money to do it... not cheap as you imagine!

Doctors usually decide female simply because the male reproductive system is much simpler than the female reproductive system. Its much easier to remove the male reproductive system and there are less chances for complication.


On the subject of They vs ze/hir. They often causes confusion over pluralization. If you spend enough time with queer and trans people, it does actually work better, and stops you saying 'he or she' every two seconds when talking about someone of whom you don't know the gender. In short, I disagree with Randell. Clever man though he is, he attempts to be an expert on way too much.
Opinion again. Also, what do homosexuals have to do with nonsence speak, they're still distinctly male or female regardless of who they're attracted to.

Point is, I don't care what you get chopped off or surgically formed. To me, you're still the same as you were born. Unless there is a real medical need for the surgery, I see it as some degree of self-mutilation.


Sorry to rant, but it upsets me when people talk about sensitive issues which they know absolutely nothing about.
Welcome to America, the place where people are overly sensitive about situations they put themselves into and where anyone with a soapbox can talk about anything he wants to regardless of if he knows what hes talking about or not.

(Edit: Oh dear, I used the word he when it could be a woman that was talking! Maybe I should've invented my own word instead!)

It upsets me when people are overly sensitive about well... pretty much anything. I'm the type of person who calls things as I see them. I don't actively seek to offend, but I could care less if what I say offends them.

[Optimystik]

On the subject of They vs ze/hir. They often causes confusion over pluralization. If you spend enough time with queer and trans people, it does actually work better, and stops you saying 'he or she' every two seconds when talking about someone of whom you don't know the gender. In short, I disagree with Randell. Clever man though he is, he attempts to be an expert on way too much.

Expertise has nothing to do with it. Randall merely stated one fact and one opinion.

Fact: "They" has been used as a gender-neutral singular pronoun since the 1300s.

Opinion: "Xe", "Hir", "s/he" and similar constructs look and sound ridiculous.

There was no part of any of that relying on false pride or expertise of any kind.


Sorry to rant, but it upsets me when people talk about sensitive issues which they know absolutely nothing about.

It upsets me when people try to choke others with political correctness; particularly when there's absolutely no reason to do so. I'm not going to condemn you or anyone else for using made-up words, but I'm perfectly free to say I find the words themselves foolish.

[TengYt]

V has no gender, as V is a Warforged Undead Construct.

[hamishspence]

is using V in place of He/Her/they, doable (carefully wording the sentences so they work)? It may make sentences look a little odd:

For V's a jolly good fellow :smallbiggrin:

[Iethloc]

V doesn't actually exist. V is an illusion cast by Elan, who is actually a mastermind gestalt, with the other side being an Illusion Specialist Wizard. He couldn't decide on a gender for the illusion, so he didn't include one. Then he had V leave, putting on a show so it still seemed real, in a plot to reveal his munchkin nature to the rest of the party.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Expertise has nothing to do with it. Randall merely stated one fact and one opinion.

Fact: "They" has been used as a gender-neutral singular pronoun since the 1300s.

Opinion: "Xe", "Hir", "s/he" and similar constructs look and sound ridiculous.

There was no part of any of that relying on false pride or expertise of any kind.



It upsets me when people try to choke others with political correctness; particularly when there's absolutely no reason to do so. I'm not going to condemn you or anyone else for using made-up words, but I'm perfectly free to say I find the words themselves foolish.

Hear, hear! :biggrin:

[Linkavitch]

Could be. Or s/he could be undecided as to a gender identity. I know people like that.

Not only that, but I've actually read fantasy/sci-fi novels where there where alien races that got to choose which they would be after they turned ten or eleven. (in alien years, I mean.)

[TheSummoner]

I have a new theory!

V is a floating head, floating hands, and floating feet. Theres also a tiny bit of torso attached under the head, which explains what we saw when V was naked.

[lisiecki]

Umm.... humans are hermaphrodites sometimes. How would you know that about elves?

Nope there not
The PHB tell's us that that characters can be male or female
so either there ARE no hermaphrodites or they cant become PC's

there are hermaphrodites in the real world, yes, but there aint no elves

Also, isn't this matter resolved in origin of the PCs?

[Lira]

Also, isn't this matter resolved in origin of the PCs?Nope. Not at all.

[lisiecki]

Nope. Not at all.

dang i really thought it was.
Ill have to go reread it
Not that i really need a reasion to go back and reread it

[LurkerInPlayground]

Rich uses various pronouns when considering V. The word 'He' is not gender neutral, it is distinctly male.
Actually, "he" is generally accepted to be the gender-neutral pronoun in English, since it'd be kind of weird to say "it" when speaking about the gender of a hypothetical person of a hypothetical scenario.

The 2e and 3e D&D manuals fall on the convention of using "she" or "her" as a gender neutral pronoun. The AD&D manual even goes as far to explicitly say so. Usually this is to the effect of reading something like this "She may choose to end this effect as a standard action." I guess this is because the writers of both games like to appear as progressive and forward-thinking types.

[Awesome Person]

Oh my gosh people! This is not grammar class people! Does it really matter if we know that V is a boy or a girl?:smallfurious: If I have to have on opinion, Isay that V is a boy by his personality. So there my little rant is over.:smallyuk:

[amuletts]

I think V is male too, because he has the male standard body i.e boxy.

Also, it IS hard using pronouns around people without a definate gender identity. Whether alternate genders are allowed in a game is really down to the GM.

Why do I suspect V's mate to be equally androgynous?

[Optimystik]

Also, it IS hard using pronouns around people without a definate gender identity.

I have absolutely no difficulty with them. :smallsigh:

[Zevox]

Why do I suspect V's mate to be equally androgynous?
Because if he ever shows up, he'll have to be to preserve the running joke/mystery of V's sex. Unless the Giant decides to find a way to strongly hint that V may be bi/homosexual, anyway. Because as we know from the FAQ, he has no intention of actually telling us V's sex, ever.

Zevox

[LurkerInPlayground]

Oh my gosh people! This is not grammar class people! Does it really matter if we know that V is a boy or a girl?:smallfurious: If I have to have on opinion, Isay that V is a boy by his personality. So there my little rant is over.:smallyuk:
Well canonically, V is more of a one-elf Quantum Uncertainty problem. Since nobody can actually observe V's gender, we must assume it exists in the hazy realm of boy-girl.

That and V is also a joke intended to start pointless discussions between OOTS fans, while Rich looks on and laughs maliciously.

Also. . . V is an elf and sexually ambiguous. Get it? *elbow nudge*

[Kaytara]

Rich has said in Paladin Blues that V's mate WILL appear in the story... along with the statement that V being married is a random fact, but one that will become important.

And since he also said that V's gender will never be revealed, yep, that pretty much means that V's mate is either equally androgynous (or of a clear gender but with strong hints that this doesn't tell us anything) or not even an elf but rather something else completely that doesn't have an obvious gender, either.

Now who wants to start discussing what V's mate is like in terms of class and personality? My bet is complete polar opposite, because two copies of the same elf would be awesome, but redundant.

[Scarlet Knight]

Oh my gosh people! This is not grammar class people! Does it really matter if we know that V is a boy or a girl?:smallfurious: If I have to have on opinion, Isay that V is a boy by his personality. So there my little rant is over.:smallyuk:

Therein lies the fun of the discussion: Can we tell Vaarsuvius's gender by personality, or is s/he an exception to the rules?

I submit Laura Croft from Tomb Raider & Caine from Kung Fu. We might assign gender by personality, but who would be the peace-loving, gentle, nurturing soul & who would be the aggressive, thrill-seeker with the big guns...:smallconfused:

Of course this is not a grammar class; it's a language class since Vaarsuvius's name does have a male latin-ending...:vaarsuvius:

[Zevox]

Therein lies the fun of the discussion: Can we tell Vaarsuvius's gender by personality, or is s/he an exception to the rules?

I submit Laura Croft from Tomb Raider & Caine from Kung Fu. We might assign gender by personality, but who would be the peace-loving, gentle, nurturing soul & who would be the aggressive, thrill-seeker with the big guns...:smallconfused:
Indeed, one's personality has no necessary relation their sex. You can tell whether a person fits into the categories of masculine or feminine - or is completely outside those definitions, for that matter - based on it, but that's an entirely different thing from whether that person is physically male or female (or hermaphrodite or whatever else).

Zevox

[LurkerInPlayground]

Rich has said in Paladin Blues that V's mate WILL appear in the story... along with the statement that V being married is a random fact, but one that will become important.

And since he also said that V's gender will never be revealed, yep, that pretty much means that V's mate is either equally androgynous (or of a clear gender but with strong hints that this doesn't tell us anything) or not even an elf but rather something else completely that doesn't have an obvious gender, either.

Now who wants to start discussing what V's mate is like in terms of class and personality? My bet is complete polar opposite, because two copies of the same elf would be awesome, but redundant.
As you say then. Two V's standing side-by-side with blank looks and matching robes would be funny, but it really wouldn't lead up to a payoff story-wise.

[Uberdruid24]

Has anyone considered that V might have a totally unique gender? We don't know much about elves in this world, and they might have different sexual organs and gender divides than humans do. So V might be some sort of weird sex incompatible with humans, that why Haley is comfortable sharing a room with it.

[Optimystik]

Has anyone considered that V might have a totally unique gender? We don't know much about elves in this world, and they might have different sexual organs and gender divides than humans do. So V might be some sort of weird sex incompatible with humans, that why Haley is comfortable sharing a room with it.

Incompatibility is out: there are half-elves in OotS-land.

[Assassin89]

Incompatibility is out: there are half-elves in OotS-land.

On record there is Pompey, but there may be another... If one believes that there is a hypothetical genetic spawn of Liran and Dorukan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) who is unrelated to Pompey. i.e. Pompey's parents are neither Liran or Dorukan

[Optimystik]

On record there is Pompey, but there may be another... If one believes that there is a hypothetical genetic spawn of Liran and Dorukan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) who is unrelated to Pompey. i.e. Pompey's parents are neither Liran or Dorukan

Now that would be one hell of a twist, if Pompey is descended from the OotSc.

[TheSummoner]

Well... hes half elf with no known parents, and those two ARE a known human/elf couple... Its possible, but unless he has some point to play later in the story, it makes no difference.

[Scarlet Knight]

:vaarsuvius: married a lizardman...woman...folk...

[Kaytara]

Indeed, one's personality has no necessary relation their sex. You can tell whether a person fits into the categories of masculine or feminine - or is completely outside those definitions, for that matter - based on it, but that's an entirely different thing from whether that person is physically male or female (or hermaphrodite or whatever else).

Zevox

Yeah, that's pretty much the problem. There ARE behaviour types typical of one gender of the other, to an extent. You can say that a caring and timid temperament is more commonly found in women rather than men, for example. However, it doesn't actually prove that a particular individual with that temperament is female.

[Optimystik]

My favorite quote about the difference between men and women comes from Elyas in the Wheel of Time:

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

So very, very true.