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KevLar
2008-12-03, 06:45 AM
This isn't another "What's the alignment of real/fictional person X? Discuss!" thread.

I was just wondering if Cthulhu (or any thinly disguised variation of Cthulhu) has a listed alignment in any game system. Can someone enlighten me? Just curious. Thanks. :)

JBento
2008-12-03, 06:55 AM
Only if you consider mind flayers as tiny, bite-sized cthulhus. Otherwise, I don't recall any such things.
In fact, giving cthulhu (or any other Mythos entity) is totally missing the point: those otherworldly beings are inescrutable and unfathomable. They are so beyond human comprehension that it's impossible to attribute any such human concepts as good, evil, law, or chaos to them.

Thurbane
2008-12-03, 06:56 AM
Call of Cthulhu d20, p.292: Chaotic Evil.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-03, 06:57 AM
Only if you consider mind flayers as tiny, bite-sized cthulhus. Otherwise, I don't recall any such things.
In fact, giving cthulhu (or any other Mythos entity) is totally missing the point: those otherworldly beings are inscrutable and unfathomable. They are so beyond human comprehension that it's impossible to attribute any such human concepts as good, evil, law, or chaos to them.Actually, they are ininitely complex and inscruitable, with dimensions and geometry that not only fail to make sense but actively destroy the minds of those who so much as gaze upon them, let alone attempt to comprehend their form.

Cthulhu is the alignment system!!!

KevLar
2008-12-03, 06:57 AM
Oh I agree, I agree wholeheartedly (and I hate alignment in all its forms). I was just wondering. Very very idly.

I've never played (or read) Call of Cthulhu, but I'd bet there's no such thing as alignment in there, right?
- Ninja'd! Yes, there is. Shame...

But isn't there something like Cthulhu in Lords of Madness? (Again, I'm not sure, I'm asking.)

Athaniar
2008-12-03, 07:00 AM
Actually, they are ininitely complex and inscruitable, with dimensions and geometry that not only fail to make sense but actively destroy the minds of those who so much as gaze upon them, let alone attempt to comprehend their form.

Cthulhu is the alignment system!!!

Quoted for truth.

JBento
2008-12-03, 07:01 AM
There is in CoC d20 - which is just ANOTHER reason why CoCd20 really isn't CoC...

Go for Chaosium's stuff - THAT's how CoC was meant to be played

Kurald Galain
2008-12-03, 07:04 AM
In fact, giving cthulhu (or any other Mythos entity) [an alignment] is totally missing the point: those otherworldly beings are inescrutable and unfathomable.


Call of Cthulhu d20, p.292: Chaotic Evil.

And indeed, it follows that COC d20 is totally missing the point.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-12-03, 07:13 AM
Cthulhu is obviously Chaotic Neutral. He's actually the definition of chaotic neutral.

horngeek
2008-12-03, 07:26 AM
KevLar, you have scared my tiny pitiful mind into hiding with your discussion. It has been flayed at the very attempt to classify a deity of the Chuthulu mythos, and will never rise again.

Seriously, the point of the Chuthuluverse is that beings like Chuthulu are not classifiable into groups such as evil. They. Just. Are.

KevLar
2008-12-03, 07:33 AM
They. Just. Are.
I know. That's why I asked. Mainly, to see if anyone would be unreasonable enough to give them an alignment - and the answer is apparently yes.
(Didn't mean to scare you. :smalltongue:)

Thurbane
2008-12-03, 07:48 AM
So, this the whole point of this thread is to point fingers at a discontinued branch of the CoC system and snigger about how they "got it wrong"?

Uh...yeah. :smalleek:

KevLar
2008-12-03, 07:50 AM
No, no, don't get me wrong, I didn't know if CoC in particular or anyone has done something like that. I was just asking, yearning for knowledge.

Question answered. Thank you. :)

Kurald Galain
2008-12-03, 07:52 AM
So, this the whole point of this thread is to point fingers at a discontinued branch of the CoC system and snigger about how they "got it wrong"?

Welcome to the internet :smallbiggrin:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-03, 08:00 AM
There is in CoC d20 - which is just ANOTHER reason why CoCd20 really isn't CoC...

1. It's in the D&D stat blocks offered for use in D&D only (they contain different statistics than CoCd20 monster stat blocks do). The game, unlike CoC, does not stupidly offer useless stat blocks for creatures (GoOs, OGs, EGs) that will never need them.

Why do people insist on making statements about books they've never even cracked open?

2. Cthulhu is manifestly Chaotic Evil. So are pretty much all the GoOs and OGs. They are malevolent and unpredictable - the definition of Chaotic Evil. Whatever their intentions, they are all about entropy, destruction, and misery, from the PoV of humans. They may not be moral agents themselves, but neither are Neutral Evil zombies.

All the posturing "omg Cthulhu is so awesome and ineffable" BS aside, you can easily quantify the actions of these creatures. The Mythos is manifestly evil in all of Lovecraft's books. The only neutral bits, really, are in the Dreamworld (which sucks anyway); the elder gods on the mountain, etc., which are more akin to animals than anything else.

hamishspence
2008-12-03, 08:03 AM
Interesting note- Only the powerful entities have alignments. They also have statlines designed to be used in D&D 3.0, whereas the Monsters in CoC d20 have no alignments.

its not "Cthulhu is CE in CoCd20": its- "For D&D purposes- when alignment issues and spells matter, Cthulhu is CE."

EDIT: ninjaed

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-03, 08:12 AM
Yeah. Anyone actually looking the book up would also see that they all have a divine rank and have domains listed for them - neither of which has any kind of application, or even exist as concepts, in CoCd20. For some bizarre reason, they figured that D&D players might play CoCd20, and might like to actually use Cthulhu material in D&D games.

Incidentally, anybody have the original Deities & Demigods? What's Cthulhu's alignment in there?

Edit: My bad, they don't have numeric divine rank, just "lesser god", "demigod", etc., plus the domains. Still, the terms are D&D ones, and have no meaning in CoCd20.

hamishspence
2008-12-03, 08:16 AM
I think I've read it a long time ago, but not spotted Cthulhu stats.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-03, 08:23 AM
Probably 'cos they're at the very back of the book, page 289 and onward. Title "Deities and Great Old Ones," part of the appendix "Lovecraftian D&D Campaigns."

Well, I guess that's all so unclear it's no wonder people think they're meant for use in CoCd20.

Doomsy
2008-12-03, 03:51 PM
1. It's in the D&D stat blocks offered for use in D&D only (they contain different statistics than CoCd20 monster stat blocks do). The game, unlike CoC, does not stupidly offer useless stat blocks for creatures (GoOs, OGs, EGs) that will never need them.

Why do people insist on making statements about books they've never even cracked open?

2. Cthulhu is manifestly Chaotic Evil. So are pretty much all the GoOs and OGs. They are malevolent and unpredictable - the definition of Chaotic Evil. Whatever their intentions, they are all about entropy, destruction, and misery, from the PoV of humans. They may not be moral agents themselves, but neither are Neutral Evil zombies.

All the posturing "omg Cthulhu is so awesome and ineffable" BS aside, you can easily quantify the actions of these creatures. The Mythos is manifestly evil in all of Lovecraft's books. The only neutral bits, really, are in the Dreamworld (which sucks anyway); the elder gods on the mountain, etc., which are more akin to animals than anything else.

You just actually proved the point with 2, you know. Inimical is not the same as evil. And that is actually brought up several times in the Mythos, though I've noticed you've cut out the ones that really hammer the point home in order to bolster your arguments. The Dreamlands mythos beings are alien but not inherently inimical, and hence are viewed in a more positive light. Secondly, the actual nature of the Elder Gods is ironically enough repeatedly more or less constantly in the books - they are idiot gods who care nothing and have very little in the nature of personality, shrines to the sheer capricious randomness of a universe vaster and far less meaningful than mankind can imagine.

That is chaotic neutral almost by definition . They are essentially similar to the Slaadi with far more power and far less ability to comprehend. Cthulhu rose in a novel and then just left for its own reasons without destroying the world. The few times the gods actually make appearances their actions are almost always seemingly at random. While they drive people mad by their very appearance, that is due to the conflict between their very nature and our own. To call that evil would mean that *we* are evil, as they would consider us as alien. They simply don't care.

Now, the worshippers of the gods? Those people are some f'd up folk, but really, you can't say that reflects on deities that never asked for nor particularly care for worship. They simply are. You can worship them, you can summon them, and it earns you nothing, really - they simply don't care and have no concept of loyalty or rewarding behavior.

Thurbane
2008-12-03, 03:59 PM
I also don't get exactly why it's so silly for Cthulhu to be CE. In the framework of D&D everything has an alignment, from mindless Golems to citizens of the far realm...is it that another alignment would suit Cthulhu better, or that he is just to kewl to be given stats?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-03, 04:20 PM
You just actually proved the point with 2, you know. Inimical is not the same as evil. And that is actually brought up several times in the Mythos, though I've noticed you've cut out the ones that really hammer the point home in order to bolster your arguments. The Dreamlands mythos beings are alien but not inherently inimical, and hence are viewed in a more positive light. Secondly, the actual nature of the Elder Gods is ironically enough repeatedly more or less constantly in the books - they are idiot gods who care nothing and have very little in the nature of personality, shrines to the sheer capricious randomness of a universe vaster and far less meaningful than mankind can imagine.

That is chaotic neutral almost by definition . They are essentially similar to the Slaadi with far more power and far less ability to comprehend. Cthulhu rose in a novel and then just left for its own reasons without destroying the world. The few times the gods actually make appearances their actions are almost always seemingly at random. While they drive people mad by their very appearance, that is due to the conflict between their very nature and our own. To call that evil would mean that *we* are evil, as they would consider us as alien. They simply don't care.

Now, the worshippers of the gods? Those people are some f'd up folk, but really, you can't say that reflects on deities that never asked for nor particularly care for worship. They simply are. You can worship them, you can summon them, and it earns you nothing, really - they simply don't care and have no concept of loyalty or rewarding behavior.

You got your Elder Gods (like Nodens; the most directly involved with humanity, and definitely your most personal) mixed up with your Outer Gods there, dude.

Causing mayhem, madness, apocalypse, etc. pretty much makes them fit the definition of D&D evil perfectly, regardless of their inscrutable motivations. D&D is full of (Lovecraft-inspired) evil monsters like this. Heck, the entire Far Realm is evil, pretty much, and this is precisely what they are.

AslanCross
2008-12-03, 04:22 PM
Just to answer the OP's question about "Cthulhu" in Lords of Madness: Nope, there is no similar entity in the book, and none of the aberration gods are statted. Most of them have rather Lovecraftian flavor, but they either have clear agendas or just like eating stuff. Tharizdun is probably the greatest in power among them, while Mak Thuum Ngatha and The Patient one are probably the weirdest.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-03, 04:59 PM
Ghaunadar is actually a total Outer God. A blind idiot slime-god with no worshippers (since slimes and oozes aren't actually Intelligent, as a rule), ineffable and incomprehensible... and evil-aligned.

Then there's the pre-Tanar'ri residents of Abyss from the Fiendish Codexes, who are probably more in the style of post-Lovecraft (but still firmly Mythos) Outer Gods, like Glaaki, Tsathoggua, and the like.

Prometheus
2008-12-03, 05:30 PM
Cthulhu is misunderstood - he's really Chaotic Good.

After all, Cthulhu is more important and more aware than mere mortals like you and I, and therefore it seems only fair that he get's first priority in life decisions. If it so happens that he loves to watch mortals suffer, flee in terror, and turn on each other, so be it. Who are you to question God, (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=22&chapter=38&version=31) anyway? Pretty much the standard utility monster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_monster).

Samurai Jill
2008-12-03, 06:08 PM
It's a little complicated, I guess.

I mean, on the one hand It's plotting universal genocide. On the other hand, this seems to be the only way to revive It's own race. I mean, technically, they were here first.

Tingel
2008-12-03, 08:34 PM
I was just wondering if Cthulhu (or any thinly disguised variation of Cthulhu) has a listed alignment in any game system. Can someone enlighten me? Just curious. Thanks. :)
HackMaster by Kenzer & Company has stats for Ctulhu. In the Gawds & Demi-Gawds supplement one can find the alien gawd of hating all existence and being imprisoned at the bottom of the ocean, named Kuchooloo (aka One-Sick-Looking-Beotch), who is (as one can easily discern from his description) Cthulhu. The book lists his alignment as (quote) "chaotic and very, very, very evil".

Another book, "The Zealot's Guide to Wurld Conversion", features a class of zealot clerics of Kuchooloo, the so-called "Kuchoos", and they also have to be chaotic evil (and also completely insane).
It is also mentioned that kuchoos must always splash blood in as wide an area as possible whenever they spill it. Given time, they must also throw severed limbs as far as they can, something onlookers sometimes confuse with a sporting event.

Contrary to the popular halfling rumor, Kuchooloo does not respond well to the phrase "Koo-koo-kuchooloo".

chiasaur11
2008-12-03, 11:11 PM
Lazy Evil. He sleeps for Aeons man. AEONS!
The alignment of Cthulhus and Griffs everywhere.

Tengu_temp
2008-12-03, 11:11 PM
And indeed, it follows that any d20 remake of a previously existing game is totally missing the point.

Fixed for ya.

Agrippa
2008-12-03, 11:51 PM
True Neutral. Cthulhu doesn't want to hurt anyone nor does he, she or it want to help anyone. Cthulhu just wants to wake up, take a stroll for a while and then go back to bed. Cthulhu doesn't notice the destruction or madness he, she or it spreads.

As for the people Cthulhu kills that's simple. The first group of people Cthulhu kills are killed by accident. The second group is made up of people who try to kill Cthulhu for accidentally killing the first group. Its just self defense.

When it comes down to Cthulhu's worshippers he, she or it doesn't understand why they conduct human sacrifices in his, her or it's name in the hopes he, she or it would teach them wonton cruelty or eat them first. Cthulhu doesn't want or need to eat anyone.

In fact Cthulhu would point to Homer Simpson and tell his, her or it's cultists to follow his example, if Cthulhu really cared. Cthulhu would probably think that Homer Simpson is the most sensible and reasonable human being ever. That's what makes Cthulhu a nightmare.

chiasaur11
2008-12-04, 12:27 AM
True Neutral. Cthulhu doesn't want to hurt anyone nor does he, she or it want to help anyone. Cthulhu just wants to wake up, take a stroll for a while and then go back to bed. Cthulhu doesn't notice the destruction or madness he, she or it spreads.

As for the people Cthulhu kills that's simple. The first group of people Cthulhu kills are killed by accident. The second group is made up of people who try to kill Cthulhu for accidentally killing the first group. Its just self defense.

When it comes down to Cthulhu's worshippers he, she or it doesn't understand why they conduct human sacrifices in his, her or it's name in the hopes he, she or it would teach them wonton cruelty or eat them first. Cthulhu doesn't want or need to eat anyone.

In fact Cthulhu would point to Homer Simpson and tell his, her or it's cultists to follow his example, if Cthulhu really cared. Cthulhu would probably think that Homer Simpson is the most sensible and reasonable human being ever. That's what makes Cthulhu a nightmare.

Or Griff.

Man, Cthulhu is more evil than I imagined!

Trizap
2008-12-04, 12:37 AM
yea, Cthulhu is above all the concepts of our world, after all him just waking up would destroy the world, and Cthulhu if he spoke, would probably obliterate a universe in the process, he wouldn't even care if a human was his biggest #1 fan, they would die as soon as they saw him.

compare it to humans and insects, insects don't really pose a threat, we don't even consider them thinking animals or mourn their loss when they get smacked,
they just are these ridiculously inferior beings that we don't even care about, a fly would probably die if it tried to comprehend what we can do, just we like we would die if we saw Cthulhu.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-04, 07:15 AM
yea, Cthulhu is above all the concepts of our world, after all him just waking up would destroy the world, and Cthulhu if he spoke, would probably obliterate a universe in the process, he wouldn't even care if a human was his biggest #1 fan, they would die as soon as they saw him.

Why is Cthulhu the Chuck Norris meme of roleplayers? (I.e. inane, overplayed, and unfunny.)

Cthulhu woke in Call of Cthulhu, and the world was not destroyed. Oops. Cthulhu "speaking" certainly wouldn't demolish anything. He's not even anywhere high up on the scale of cosmic horrors - Nyarlathotep and Azathoth are both far more powerful and dangerous. The Render of the Veils and a few other Outer Gods are way more destructive (expanding infinitely, at a geometric speed, and destroying everything you touch?). Seeing Cthulhu is not lethal, either - most (all?) of the crew survived seeing it. It was the whole "grabbing and crushing" part that proved lethal.

WalkingTarget
2008-12-04, 10:58 AM
I think this passage (http://www.dagonbytes.com/thelibrary/lovecraft/thecallofcthulhu.htm) is interesting, bold for emphasis:


These Great Old Ones, Castro continued, were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shape - for did not this star-fashioned image prove it? - but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R'lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious surrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them. But at that time some force from outside must serve to liberate Their bodies. The spells that preserved them intact likewise prevented Them from making an initial move, and They could only lie awake in the dark and think whilst uncounted millions of years rolled by. They knew all that was occurring in the universe, for Their mode of speech was transmitted thought. Even now They talked in Their tombs. When, after infinities of chaos, the first men came, the Great Old Ones spoke to the sensitive among them by moulding their dreams; for only thus could Their language reach the fleshly minds of mammals.

Then, whispered Castro, those first men formed the cult around tall idols which the Great Ones shewed them; idols brought in dim eras from dark stars. That cult would never die till the stars came right again, and the secret priests would take great Cthulhu from His tomb to revive His subjects and resume His rule of earth. The time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom. Meanwhile the cult, by appropriate rites, must keep alive the memory of those ancient ways and shadow forth the prophecy of their return.

Ok, so these are the opinions of one of the cultists. Whether or not he's correct in his beliefs about the Great Old Ones is something that I'm not sure on (I like the idea that the cult isn't actually under orders from Cthulhu, just that "sensitives" have gotten glimpses of his mind and are under the delusion that they can be like him, that's just my personal slant on things though).

If we take Castro's account at face value, then:
1. Cthulhu and the other GOOs have to be awoken by some third party at the appropriate time.
2. That time is after mankind has become "free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy."
3. This isn't the "end of the world" or whatever some people seem to think. It's the loss of civilization as we know it, sure, but it's not rocks fall, everyone dies.
4. The implication is that Cthulhu's awakening isn't what causes this breakdown of society, it's foreshadowed by that breakdown.

The problem is trying to get Lovecraft's vision of a mechanistic, uncaring universe shoehorned into a system like D&D that has an alignment system that is automatically assumed to exist. By D&D's definition of things, I think CE fits, though ("laws and morals thrown aside... shouting and killing and revelling in joy" sounds CE to me). It's like modeling Tolkien's magic in D&D, though. Sure you can do it, but only by twisting it to the point where it bears little resemblance to the source material.

JBento
2008-12-04, 11:47 AM
Why is Cthulhu the Chuck Norris meme of roleplayers? (I.e. inane, overplayed, and unfunny.)

Cthulhu woke in Call of Cthulhu, and the world was not destroyed. Oops. Cthulhu "speaking" certainly wouldn't demolish anything. He's not even anywhere high up on the scale of cosmic horrors - Nyarlathotep and Azathoth are both far more powerful and dangerous. The Render of the Veils and a few other Outer Gods are way more destructive (expanding infinitely, at a geometric speed, and destroying everything you touch?). Seeing Cthulhu is not lethal, either - most (all?) of the crew survived seeing it. It was the whole "grabbing and crushing" part that proved lethal.

Indeed. Azathoth is a galaxy-sized nuclear explosion waiting to happen, held back only because of its own cooling system: a bunch of little frog-like things playing the flute. Cthulhu, IIRC, is actually the high priest of his race.

I'll have to disagree in that I believe that Nyarlathotep is actually pretty low on the power scale. He is, however, very high on the danger scale. As the Herald of the Elder Gods, and Weare of a Thousand Masks, ol' Nyar is the Mythos being more likely to be involved in mortal matters, and do so consciously. His goals, however, remain as inescrutable as his true identity...

Callos_DeTerran
2008-12-04, 12:14 PM
Just to answer the OP's question about "Cthulhu" in Lords of Madness: Nope, there is no similar entity in the book, and none of the aberration gods are statted. Most of them have rather Lovecraftian flavor, but they either have clear agendas or just like eating stuff. Tharizdun is probably the greatest in power among them, while Mak Thuum Ngatha and The Patient one are probably the weirdest.

The gave the equivilent D&D being name for Cthulhu though, and it was noted to be a uncaring evil being who's name began with P and was revered by the aboleths I think. Personally Cthulhu sounds rather neutral evil what with the uncaring bit and what not, but what do I know?:smalltongue:

Tamburlaine
2008-12-04, 12:17 PM
Why is Cthulhu the Chuck Norris meme of roleplayers? (I.e. inane, overplayed, and unfunny.)

Because it's His name on the front of all the books - heck, it's even called The Cthulhu Mythos. Names are powerful stuff.

On topic, I always thought any space for alignment in Cthulhu's stat-block would be calling out for a great big [N/A].

hamishspence
2008-12-04, 01:12 PM
Piscaethces the Blood Queen, yes.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-04, 01:23 PM
Indeed. Azathoth is a galaxy-sized nuclear explosion waiting to happen, held back only because of its own cooling system: a bunch of little frog-like things playing the flute. Cthulhu, IIRC, is actually the high priest of his race.

I'll have to disagree in that I believe that Nyarlathotep is actually pretty low on the power scale. He is, however, very high on the danger scale. As the Herald of the Elder Gods, and Weare of a Thousand Masks, ol' Nyar is the Mythos being more likely to be involved in mortal matters, and do so consciously. His goals, however, remain as inescrutable as his true identity...

Trail of Cthulhu has some freaking awesome interpretations of the "Titans" (a nice umbrella term for all the gods etc.; the other terminology is actually very confused in the novels themselves). The interpretations are basically divided into a few categories, with (mostly) one in each given to every Titan presented. One category ties them to the classical elements (Derleth-style, I think?), and one ties them to real "elements" - strong and weak nuclear, gravity, etc. Azathoth's include being a conscious black hole at the center of the universe, and Nyarlathotep's include being a memetic virus of sorts, being an "interphase state" between our fragile reality and the real reality, and being a telepathic technique used to contact the Outer Gods. Cthulhu's include only having an existence in the human brain's "R-Complex," being the incarnation of gravity, and R'lyeh being a separate dimension filled by Cthulhu...

In summation, Trail of Cthulhu kicks ass.

Thurbane
2008-12-04, 09:02 PM
So everyone is cool with mindless Golems, Far Realm BBEGs (obviously Mythos nasties by any other non-copyrighted name) and even animals having an alignment, but not Cthulhu?

Prometheus
2008-12-04, 09:28 PM
Cthulhu, being a deity, has whatever alignment you want to cast him as. Even if he is incomprehensible to the PCs, DMs are not and neither should their plot. If Cthulhu is the philosophical manifestation of an indifferent universe, that makes him Good-Evil Neutral. If Cthulhu is the ultimate enemy and antagonist of the characters, than he is clearly Evil and if the DM decides Cthulhu is really doing the good thing in a very large and convoluted scheme than he is Good (and the DM is on crack). Law and Chaos depend on whether you focus on Cthulhu cults or anarchy - but again, those are people's reactions to a being that is not bound by enough laws to consider those social constructs. Another problem solved with Rule 0.

SurlySeraph
2008-12-04, 10:46 PM
Cthulu's intentions are probably True Neutral (he doesn't care about humanity), but his actions are Chaotic Evil (the whole insanity and eating people thing). What that makes him is a subjective matter. Personally, I prefer unambiguously Lawful Good Lovecraftian entities (http://www.incursion-roguelike.org/man/Pantheon.html#KY). :smalltongue:

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-04, 11:42 PM
Technically, the Elder Gods are probably "incapable of moral action", and thus Neutral.

Non-technically? If any character tries to do something the consequences of which would depend on Cthulhu's alignment, the character's head explodes before he can take the action.

(Or maybe he just goes insane instead. I'm not all that familiar with the mythos, but I do gather that even attempting to divine Cthulu's alignment just shouldn't work.)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-05, 12:44 AM
So everyone is cool with mindless Golems, Far Realm BBEGs (obviously Mythos nasties by any other non-copyrighted name) and even animals having an alignment, but not Cthulhu?Yes. wordiness

golentan
2008-12-05, 02:04 AM
The person who said chaotic good was right. But for the wrong reasons. Cthulhu, and all the other ineffable horrors from the Lovecraft Mythos, are chaotic good rebels. They are trying to use their maddening geometry to force us to confront the universe, that we may liberate ourselves from the oppressive tyranny humans mistakenly call sanity. Failing (or succeeding) that, they devour us that we may roam free from our bodies through the multidimensional jigsaw maze (can I copyright that?) that is their digestive tract, in the form of our unconscious constituent atoms. Die free or live. That is the legacy of Cthulhu, and the proof of his alignment.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-05, 09:53 AM
So everyone is cool with mindless Golems, Far Realm BBEGs (obviously Mythos nasties by any other non-copyrighted name) and even animals having an alignment, but not Cthulhu?

Moon beasts on ... FF or MM2, I always get them mixed up... are literally 100% the Dunwich Horror. Huge, invisible tentacled monster?

WalkingTarget
2008-12-05, 11:17 AM
So everyone is cool with mindless Golems, Far Realm BBEGs (obviously Mythos nasties by any other non-copyrighted name) and even animals having an alignment, but not Cthulhu?

The problem that occurs is that D&D assumes on a basic level that concepts such as Good and Evil exist as universal Truths. A Lovecraftian universe holds that Good and Evil are human constructs and have no meaning in the cosmos at large and are inapplicable to assign them as intrinsic qualities a thing has (i.e. in a Lovecraftian universe everything is neutral, I can see arguments for things being Lawful or Chaotic, but not Good or Evil).

Things imported from Lovecraft to a D&D universe could be assigned an alignment based on their behavior since everything in D&D has an alignment. It's just that the source material for them has different definitions.

Example: Cthulhu's coming is foretold by the breakdown of society into anarchy with people killing and reveling in joy and once he's around he'll teach them more ways to do so.
D&D - breakdown of society into anarchy = Chaotic, killing indiscriminately for fun = Evil
Lovecraft - breakdown of society into anarchy = possibly Chaotic, not well-defined but he definitely doesn't represent law and order, killing indiscriminately for fun = Neutral if anything since Good and Evil don't exist.