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Eloel
2008-12-03, 10:17 AM
Core-only preferred, I may have to have a hard time getting it through if it's non-core. (2 dump stats and highly-dependence on 4 stats is OK)

RMS Oceanic
2008-12-03, 10:19 AM
Paladin (Good STR/CON/CHA, decent WIS) and Monk (Good STR/WIS/DEX/CON), really.

Saph
2008-12-03, 10:21 AM
Probably Paladin - they need Cha, Str, Wis, and Con, and would prefer scores of 12ish in Dex and Int as well. A Cleric who wants to be able to bash, cast, and turn undead has the same problem.

Monk also qualifies - they need Wis, Str, Con, Dex, and Int for skills. Their only dump stat is Cha.

- Saph

Kurald Galain
2008-12-03, 10:40 AM
Monk, hands down.

Eloel
2008-12-03, 10:42 AM
Wouldn't Rogue qualify? somehow? (Dex, Int, Str is a must?)

RMS Oceanic
2008-12-03, 10:54 AM
Not really. A rogue doesn't really need high strength, when his Sneak Attack damage will usually be his main damage source. A rogue can get away with only a high dexterity.

Of course, every class can benefit from having a good score in five of the six abilities.

Strength - Carry limits, melee (touch) attacks, melee damage
Dexterity - AC, ranged (touch) attacks, Reflex Save
Constitution - Hit Points, Fortitude Save
Intelligence - Skill Points
Wisdom - Will Save

Apart from skills, class abilities and spellcasting, Charisma is truly a dump stat.

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-03, 12:15 PM
Most of the times, you’ll read about a very popular monk myth, the multi ability dependence (MAD). Allegedly, the monk has to have more high stats everywhere than everyone else
True, the monk can make use out of great scores in all his abilites. So can everyone else. No difference. So everyone is MAD (multi ability dependendet), to the same degree. Or no one is. It is that simple.
Examples: a fighter who wishes to be strong in combat and still not a complete klutz for skills nor easy victim to will-based saves (alongside vital spot and listen checks) will need exactly the same amount of high abilities. Even batman who loves “dump stats” and only focuses on INT, DEX and CON will then see there are problems with his low stats in STR (hit by ray of enfeeblement? There goes that spellbook), WIS (oh noes! Enemy maxed casters could target a wizard with WILL saves? Really? And how do I spot/listen my enemies again?), or CHR (enchanters at the very least like this score rather high).
Overall, as for casters using “dump” stats and the like…well, they are the only ones who even NEED certain minimum scores to function at all. The monk can have WIS of 8, or, for that matter, an 8 IN ALL STATS and still use all his class abilities to his heart’s content. You get the idea...
As an aside, the monk’s bonus feats like combat reflexes and improved trip and even improved grapple do not require the minimum stats that other characters need to have. So if there is one of the classes in the core game that has no MAD, it’s the monk.

See! A monk isn't MAD at all!

theMycon
2008-12-03, 12:55 PM
I would say the paladin (Needs STR & CHA to function, can really, really use a decent WIS, and realistically needs a decent CON) comes in first, no questions asked. The Monk (Needs WIS, can really use DEX, realistically needs a decent CON, and has (theoretically*) some use for STR) comes in a reasonably close second.

Distant third might be the Rogue (Needs Dex, realistically-decent INT & CHA, and CON doesn't hurt), or the Barbarian (Needs Str & Con, decent dex is rewarded).

Also, just for the sake of argument... Wis is often a dump state too. Bards & Sorcerers already have a good save, and, should they want more, one feat (force of personality) makes their primary statistic cover it.


*Having played two or three, and seen one or two others, all of whom contributed above average to the party (experienced players, usually non-optimizers)... none of 'em had above 12 STR. Really, one of two feats, depending on how you want to play, and a bag of holding make STR about as relevant as Con for the Rogue or Wis for the Barb.

Waspinator
2008-12-03, 03:47 PM
Barbarian! All that rage makes them very mad. :smalltongue:

Person_Man
2008-12-03, 04:07 PM
Every class has at least one stat that it absolutely needs to be as high as possible, because it determines To-Hit or Save DC. (A caster can get around this problem by casting buff or summon spells and hanging back. Everyone else will need high Str or Dex).

Every class is helped by a high Con, because hit points are the ultimate defensive stat, especially at low-mid levels before crazy magical effects kick in.

No one wants a stat below 8ish, because dumping a stat below that point is guarantees that the DM will unleash enemies with poison and/or spells and/or abilities that target that stat. (This problem is solved by gaining immunity to ability damage, but that's usually not possible at low levels).

Here's a complete rundown of what the core classes need in order to function. A + indicates that the class should generally try to get that stat as high as possible. A (#) indicates that the stat is needed if the build wants to use a particular feat options, such as Power Attack (Str 13), Improved Trip (reqs Combat Expertise, Int 13), or Combat Reflexes (Dex 12+), one or more of which is essential for most melee builds to function properly. A [#] indicates that the stat is needed in order to cast spells. So a Wizard only needs 11 Int to cast anything, and he'll need 19 Int by level 17 to cast 9th level spells. Half casters like the Ranger and Paladin can often get away with starting with 10 in Wis, and getting 14 Wis by level 14 by investing in items or whatnot.

Barbarian: Str 13+, Dex 10 (12+), Con 10+, Int 8 (13), Wis 8, Cha 8 = 57++ (64+++)
Bard: Str 10, Dex 10+ (12+), Con 10+, Int 10+ (13), Wis 8, Cha 11+ [16+] = 59++++ (64++++) [64++++]
Cleric: Str 10+ (13+), Dex 10 (12+), Con 10+, Int 8 (13), Wis 11+ [19+], Cha 10+ = 59++++ (69+++++) [67++++]
Druid: Str 8, Dex 8 (12), Con 10+, Int 8 (13), Wis 11+ [19+], Cha 8 = 53++ (57++) [61++]
Fighter: Str 13+, Dex 10 (12+), Con 10+, Int 8 (13), Wis 8, Cha 8 = 57++ (64+++)
Monk: Str 10+, Dex 10+ (12+), Con 10+, Int 8, Wis 14+, Cha 8 = 60++++ (62++++)
Paladin: Str 13+, Dex 10 (12+), Con 10+, Int 8 (13), Wis 10 [14], Cha 12+ = 63+++ (70++++) [67+++]
Ranger: Str 10+ (13), Dex 10+ (12+), Con 10+, Int 8 (13), Wis 10 [14], Cha 8 = 56+++ (66+++) [60+++]
Rogue: Str 10, Dex 10+, Con 10+, Int 10+ (13+), Wis 8, Cha 8 = 56++ (59++)
Sorcerer: Str 8, Dex 8, Con 10+, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 11+ [19+] = 53++, [61++]
Wizard: Str 8, Dex 8, Con 10+, Int 11+ [19]+, Wis 8, Cha 8 = 53++, [61++]

So assuming you roll very low stats, your best choice is generally a Druid, who is only dependent on Con and Wis, and can use Wildshape to improve his Str and Dex. Alternatively he can just hang in back and spontaneously summon, which means he only needs Wis.

I'd also argue that you could play a Rogue with all 8's and 10's for the rest of your career and be fine. Use Sneak Attack for bonus damage and your Skill Points from class levels to be useful. Invest heavily in UMD and use a Wand of Flame Blade or Fire Dagger and Greater Invisibility or Ring of Blinking or whatever, and you no longer have to worry about your cruddy To-Hit and defenses.

Assuming you maximize MAD for some reason, the MADest class would be the Paladin. The Paladin needs high Str, Con, and Cha. He'll eventually need 14 Wis to cast spells. He'll need Dex 12+ if he wants to use Combat Reflexes, which is required for most battlefield control options. He'll need Int 13 if he wants Improved Trip or any of the other feats that require Combat Expertise. In essence, he can't dump anything but Int, and even that's questionable.

Interestingly enough, I'd say that if you want to play a tank Cleric, you have even more MAD then the Paladin. You need high Str, Con, and Wis. You want high Cha to fuel Turn Undead -> Divine feats. You'll need Dex 12+ and possibly Int 13 for battlefield control. But that's clearly an option, and not a requirement of the class. A Cleric can stand in back and buff/summon just as well as a Druid can.

Greg
2008-12-03, 04:15 PM
Barbarian: Str 13+, Dex 10 (12+), Con 10+, Int 8 (13), Wis 8, Cha 8 = 57++ (64+++)
Bard: Str 10, Dex 10+ (12+), Con 10+, Int 10+ (13), Wis 8, Cha 11+ [16+] = 59++++ (64++++) [64++++]
Cleric: Str 10+ (13+), Dex 10 (12+), Con 10+, Int 8 (13), Wis 11+ [19+], Cha 10+ = 59++++ (69+++++) [67++++]
Druid: Str 8, Dex 8 (12), Con 10+, Int 8 (13), Wis 11+ [19+], Cha 8 = 53++ (57++) [61++]
Fighter: Str 13+, Dex 10 (12+), Con 10+, Int 8 (13), Wis 8, Cha 8 = 57++ (64+++)
Monk: Str 10+, Dex 10+ (12+), Con 10+, Int 8, Wis 14+, Cha 8 = 60++++ (62++++)
Paladin: Str 13+, Dex 10 (12+), Con 10+, Int 8 (13), Wis 10 [14], Cha 12+ = 63+++ (70++++) [67+++]
Ranger: Str 10+ (13), Dex 10+ (12+), Con 10+, Int 8 (13), Wis 10 [14], Cha 8 = 56+++ (66+++) [60+++]
Rogue: Str 10, Dex 10+, Con 10+, Int 10+ (13+), Wis 8, Cha 8 = 56++ (59++)
Sorcerer: Str 8, Dex 8, Con 10+, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 11+ [19+] = 53++, [61++]
Wizard: Str 8, Dex 8, Con 10+, Int 11+ [19]+, Wis 8, Cha 8 = 53++, [61++]
This isn't right. Full casters need 15+ in order to get all their spell levels at the minimum levels to cast them.

Sir Giacomo
2008-12-03, 04:50 PM
Monk, hands down.

Ironically, even with hands down, monk are not MAD.:smallamused:

Thanks btw Stupendous_Man, for the quote...I have nothing to add.:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-03, 05:04 PM
Ironically, even with hands down, monk are not MAD.:smallamused:


Assuming, of course, that the monk is in a setting where he/she can consistently get the money he/she needs to power UMD.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-12-03, 05:05 PM
This isn't right. Full casters need 15+ in order to get all their spell levels at the minimum levels to cast them.

No they don't, they can get stat boosting items instead, though personally I would start with at least a 12, that way you don't need a stat boost item until level 7 and you can still cast the highest level spells available to you at the levels you get them.

AmberVael
2008-12-03, 05:07 PM
Oh, Monks are definitely SAD alright. If you don't mean SAD as an acronym, that is.
I'd go with Paladin as the most MAD, myself. You need some kind of high combat stats (Preferably two of Str, Dex, and Con), Wisdom for spellcasting, Charisma for smiting and Divine Grace.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-03, 05:08 PM
Oh, Monks are definitely SAD alright. If you don't mean SAD as an acronym, that is.


tee hee hee.

monty
2008-12-03, 05:10 PM
Ironically, even with hands down, monk are not MAD.:smallamused:

Of course not. Alignment restrictions make it hard for them to multiclass to barbarian for Rage.

Deepblue706
2008-12-04, 02:22 AM
I vote Paladin; a Human Monk can reliably work on INT and CHA 8, while Paladins can only really get away with the lack of INT.

Bards have terrible MAD too, but they can somewhat neglect STR (in addition to dumping WIS) because Bardic Music and Magic can be a better option than mundane melee support.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-04, 02:37 AM
Bards have terrible MAD too, but they can somewhat neglect STR (in addition to dumping WIS) because Bardic Music and Magic can be a better option than mundane melee support.Actually, Bards are like Warlocks. They are the only class that can get by with 3s in everything. Yeah, they can't cast in that case, but their music is perfectly effective still, so if they have enough uses they can still be a benefit.

skywalker
2008-12-04, 02:58 AM
Assuming you maximize MAD for some reason, the MADest class would be the Paladin. The Paladin needs high Str, Con, and Cha. He'll eventually need 14 Wis to cast spells. He'll need Dex 12+ if he wants to use Combat Reflexes, which is required for most battlefield control options. He'll need Int 13 if he wants Improved Trip or any of the other feats that require Combat Expertise. In essence, he can't dump anything but Int, and even that's questionable.

I like to roll my stats. I always stay within the middle range of the averages, almost never roll anything higher than a 16 or lower than an 8.

So if you're like me, and tend to roll middling stats, it can help to know what classes are good for that. It's funny that it seems to work out that MAD classes are also secondary classes, and don't require uberstats for save DCs and what not. For instance, most of the time, your paladin doesn't have to have an 18 STR because the fighter already does, etc.

I've actually played a paladin before with all the attributes you suggest.

So MAD optimization is useful for a guy like me. I think it's wasteful (of luck) to use rolls like that for a SAD class.

TempusCCK
2008-12-04, 03:16 AM
If you're concerned with powergaming on any level, then the monk is a terribly MAD character, needing Wisdom for stunning fist, and AC as a frontliner, STR for to hit, dex for AC, and Con for HP. All of which serve them in as a front-liner. However, while you can't really fix the damage issue, taking WEapon Finesse for your fists will allow you to merge Dex and STR for your to-hit bonuses. Still, your damage isn't going to be hot.

In my opinion, paladins do not really need Charisma. Yes, it helps with Smite Evil, Lay on Hands and turn undead, but its' not really essential in the overall build of the character, really, character level is more important in Smite Evil and Lay on Hands. A 12 in CHA should be adequate. So in the end, you're stuck with STR for damage and hit, Dex for AC (armor, which the monk lacks, helps this greatly), and Con for HP. As for Wisdom, you need a mere 14 for all your spells, which is a cakewalk by the time you have 4th level spells, and since Paladin spells are primarily self buffs, save DC's are a non-issue.

Monk definatley more MAD than Paladin in my opinion. However, that's if you even give a poop about powergaming, which alot of people will ridicule you endlessly for anyway. that's also me shooing away the roles of Lay on hands and Smite Evil as a necessity. They're nice, but there's no reason to jack up CHA just for them, Clerics or wands heal better and turn undead better, and if you jack up STR enough, Smite Evil to-hit is adequate to deal that sweet sweet extra damage.

Fishy
2008-12-04, 03:21 AM
There's that Elf Paladin racial substitution level that gives you Ranged Smite, which turns you into an archer/pally. Suddenly, you have all the MAD of a paladin, except you also need a huge DEX to qualify for any of the good archery feats. Roll enough 18s, and it starts to look awesome, though.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-04, 05:05 AM
Apart from skills, class abilities and spellcasting, Charisma is truly a dump stat. And what if skills are your main class attributes? Charisma is much too important for Rogues to treat as a dump stat. Strength is the least useful, followed by CON; these just don't have many important skills dependent on them.

Tengu_temp
2008-12-04, 05:30 AM
I'd say ninja is a very MAD class - you need strength for climbing and jumping (can a ninja who sucks at those consider himself a ninja?), dexterity for obvious reasons, constitution because everyone needs that, intelligence because you're the skill monkey (and you need higher intelligence than a rogue because you have less skill points), wisdom for ki powers, and charisma because you're the skill monkey.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-04, 05:34 AM
And what if skills are your main class attributes? Charisma is much too important for Rogues to treat as a dump stat. Strength is the least useful, followed by CON; these just don't have many important skills dependent on them.UMD and social skills are not worth investing the points in many builds. UMD is all or nothing and social can be replaced by the Wizard. Not perfect, but given the drain on skill points for the skill monkey, reasonable.

SoD
2008-12-04, 05:53 AM
Of course not. Alignment restrictions make it hard for them to multiclass to barbarian for Rage.

Actually, not that difficult. Sure, they change alignment and therefore can't be a monk from there on, but hey, if a monk multiclasses to anything he can't go back for another level of monk. Plus...a monk who ceases being lawful doesn't loose a single monk ability.

Gardakan
2008-12-04, 07:25 AM
I say the bard... he needs Charisma for the best and maybe a decent score in Int, Dex, Con...

Paladin and Monk also are classes that need more than 4 characteristics of 13...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-04, 08:46 AM
I say the bard... he needs Charisma for the best and maybe a decent score in Int, Dex, Con...

Paladin and Monk also are classes that need more than 4 characteristics of 13...I wouldn't think so. Bard is sort of like Cleric. He'll use every point you give him but doesn't need much of anything. No good scores? Go Dragonfire. One? Go Sublime Chord. 3+? SfW. Not MAD so much as WGR(Wants Good Rolls).

Heliomance
2008-12-04, 09:12 AM
Monk also needs CHA. Don't forget, he needs a good UMD check for all those partially charged wands!

The Glyphstone
2008-12-04, 09:16 AM
In before Unarmed Swordsage, because this is nothing if not another "Monks are teh lose" thread in disguise.

Heliomance
2008-12-04, 09:17 AM
Don't think unarmed swordsages are that MAD, so they probably weren't going to be mentioned. You fail.

FMArthur
2008-12-04, 09:12 PM
This stuff is usually fairly easy to figure out. What classes are NAD, though? Where they really don't depend a whole lot on their ability scores. Warlock is usually a cited example, but I'm starting to think a Rogue could pull it off, too. Samurai could be considered NAD, but only because he can't make proper use out of any abilities. Any others?

Maerok
2008-12-04, 09:18 PM
How about Binder? Might be Cha dependent but they do all sorts of stuff right out of the box.

MeklorIlavator
2008-12-04, 09:21 PM
This stuff is usually fairly easy to figure out. What classes are NAD, though? Where they really don't depend a whole lot on their ability scores. Warlock is usually a cited example, but I'm starting to think a Rogue could pull it off, too. Samurai could be considered NAD, but only because he can't make proper use out of any abilities. Any others?

Well, there's a thread about that right here, but in summary, classes that can be good without any high stats: Warlock, Binder, and artificer.

The problem with using a rogue is that with all poor scores he doesn't really do that great. Sure, he has skills, but that all, and it isn't much until higher levels.

monty
2008-12-05, 12:02 AM
The problem with using a rogue is that with all poor scores he doesn't really do that great. Sure, he has skills, but that all, and it isn't much until higher levels.

Actually, if you could consistently pull off sneak attacks, Warlock 1/Rogue X wouldn't be too bad, since you wouldn't be getting stat-based damage anyway, and touch attacks with a medium BAB class really aren't that hard.