Vaarsuvius' Four Words

[Kish]

Yes, I'm making a prediction about the four words Vaarsuvius will speak to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons, and thereby achieve ultimate arcane power:

They'll be obvious.

When Vaarsuvius finally speaks the words, everyone (except the "Belkar is Chaotic Neutral" people) will know those were the words. There will be no, "I think those were the words, now where's the power?" It will be no more open to doubt than it was that Miko had Fallen when she Fell. Conversely, if you find yourself going, "I think those were the words--I can't prove it, but it was four words! Four! And Vaarsuvius said them!"--no, those were not the words.

[theinsulabot]

we already know the words

"i prepared explosive runes"

[Greep]

Yes, I'm making a prediction about the four words Vaarsuvius will speak to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons, and thereby achieve ultimate arcane power:

They'll be obvious.

When Vaarsuvius finally speaks the words, everyone (except the "Belkar is Chaotic Neutral" people) will know those were the words. There will be no, "I think those were the words, now where's the power?" It will be no more open to doubt than it was that Miko had Fallen when she Fell. Conversely, if you find yourself going, "I think those were the words--I can't prove it, but it was four words! Four! And Vaarsuvius said them!"--no, those were not the words.

I disagree. While the oracle may just have been joshing belkar, not only are his prophecies vague, but their fulfillments can be. More likely than not, we won't know V's prohpecy to be fulfilled until well after it happens.

If you're thinking to stop V's 4 words posts, though, this would be kinda silly, most of the people making the posts don't even consider all of the requirements (right person, right time, wrong reasons).

[EyethatBinds]

The only subtle coming true of anyone's oracle thingies was Haley's because those who just ignored her cryptographic speech until she was cured had no idea what she was saying. So until she explained I was a little lost.

Belkar's prophesy was unambiguous along with Durkon's, Roy's, and Blackwing's.

[Zevox]

I disagree. While the oracle may just have been joshing belkar, not only are his prophecies vague, but their fulfillments can be.
Come now, the only prophecy the Oracle has ever given that can truly be described as vague is the one he gave Haley (due to the "gift horse" metaphor). Beyond that, the most that he can be accused of is being overly-literal ("Hey, 'in his throne room' was a perfectly legitimate answer to the question, 'Where is Xykon?'") or only giving exactly as much information as he is asked to ("Yes" to Belkar's question, or the context-lacking answer to V), which is quite different from being vague.

Anyway, I agree with Kish, most likely we'll know V's prophecy is coming true when it happens. Sadly, we're still doomed to get speculation threads about every set of four words V says from now until then regardless though...

Zevox

[Greep]

Come now, the only prophecy the Oracle has ever given that can truly be described as vague is the one he gave Haley (due to the "gift horse" metaphor). Beyond that, the most that he can be accused of is being overly-literal ("Hey, 'in his throne room' was a perfectly legitimate answer to the question, 'Where is Xykon?'") or only giving exactly as much information as he is asked to ("Yes" to Belkar's question, or the context-lacking answer to V), which is quite different from being vague.

Anyway, I agree with Kish, most likely we'll know V's prophecy is coming true when it happens. Sadly, we're still doomed to get speculation threads about every set of four words V says from now until then regardless though...

Zevox

Don't get me wrong, it COULD be obvious, I'm just saying given his answers 2 out of 3 (Haley + belkar) of them were not known to be fulfilled until well after the fact (possibly several more when you think about it, but that's doubftul). Even if he was just screwing with Belkar, 1 out of 3 is a significant minority at the very least.

[Zevox]

Don't get me wrong, it COULD be obvious, I'm just saying given his answers 2 out of 3 (Haley + belkar) of them were not known to be fulfilled until well after the fact (possibly several more when you think about it, but that's doubftul). Even if he was just screwing with Belkar, 1 out of 3 is a significant minority at the very least.
Um, we know he was screwing with Belkar in #567. The Oracle himself said he wasn't buying his excuses, and the thing is titled "The Simplest Explanation." That was the whole joke for that strip. It's obvious as can be.

And considering Haley's was the only vague prophecy the Oracle gave to begin with, it'd be pretty ridiculous to claim that it is evidence that the Oracle's prophecies as a whole are vague and likely to have non-obvious fulfillments just because it happened to be one of the first to come true.

Zevox

[Greep]

Um, we know he was screwing with Belkar in #567. The Oracle himself said he wasn't buying his excuses, and the thing is titled "The Simplest Explanation." That was the whole joke for that strip. It's obvious as can be.

And considering Haley's was the only vague prophecy the Oracle gave to begin with, it'd be pretty ridiculous to claim that it is evidence that the Oracle's prophecies as a whole are vague and likely to have non-obvious fulfillments just because it happened to be one of the first to come true.

Zevox

Fair enough. So the odds are 2 to 3 against :smallbiggrin:

And having said that I've actually imagined a scenario coming very soon that may be the 4 words anyways that would be extremely fitting.

[B.I.T.T.]

Well let's analyze exactly what was predicted.

Durkon: How will I be returnin' to me beloved dwarven homelands

Answer: Posthumerously

Vaarsuvius: How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power.

Answer: By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons.

Haley: Bfqe zqp M rt et fjketfj wi klijjzf.

Answer: When the gift horse comes calling don't look it in the mouth.

Elan: Will this story have a happy ending?

Answer: Yes - for you at least.

Belkar: Do I get to cause the death of any of the following: Miko, Miko's stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius or you (the kobold)

Answer: Yes.

Roy: Blah blah blah stupid question.

Answer: Blah blah blah 1000 feet of Girard's gate.

V's Familiar: Caw caw caw caw, caw caw caw?

Answer: Try ginkgo bilboa.

Now Haley's was pretty vague, but it's come true. Belkar's was vaguely true until he took matters in his own hands and activated his mark of justice. Roy's was a blunt answer, but...well ya know....dumb question.

I'd say we have about maybe a 50/50 shot at realizing the prediction when it happens (personally I think it already has, but that's a different thread)

[Zevox]

Analyzing each of the prophecies is a good idea, actually.

:roy: :durkon: : Where is Xykon?
Oracle: In his throne room.
Analysis: The Oracle was being overly-literal in order to provide the Giant with a good joke and establish his snarky personality for us. Not ambiguous, but didn't tell our heroes what they wanted to know.

Blackwing: <indecipherable cawing>
Oracle: Try ginkgo biloba.
Analysis: More like advice than a prophecy, really. It seems to have been a treatment for something - possibly vertigo, if Wikipedia can be trusted. In any event, direct and unambiguous.

:durkon: : How will I be returnin' to me beloved dwarven homelands?
Oracle: Posthumously.
Analysis: Pretty unambiguous. Durkon will not return to his homeland until after he has died. The only potential twist to this I can see is a theory myself and a couple of other posters discussed in another thread where Durkon would be reanimated as some form of undead by Xykon after his death and participate in a Xykon-lead attack on his village, a theory based on combining the Oracle's prediction with the prophecy of Odin from OtOoPCs that said Durkon would bring death and destruction to his homeland when he returned. In which case the Oracle's prediction is still unambiguously true, just lacking additional context Durkon neither asked about nor required to be told to have his question answered.

:elan: : Will this story have a happy ending?
Oracle: Yes - for you at least.
Analysis: Unambiguous. For Elan, the ending of the overall comic story will be a happy one. Definitely this tells us he will survive, that Xykon or Nale won't conquer the world, and that the Snarl almost certainly won't be unleashed, or that if it is it won't obliterate the world or even cause enough damage to deny Elan his happiness; and odds are it means Haley survives and the two marry as well.

:roy: (shortened version): Which Gate will Xykon go to first: Girard's or Kraagor's?
Oracle (summarized version): Girard's, but you're an idiot for forgetting about Soon's, and it's your own fault if this completely screws you over.
Analysis: Very unambiguous, and we already know it to be true, since Redcloak was using the pretense of trying to acquire information about that Gate's defenses to keep Xykon from moving out after it immediately. Hasn't come true just yet, but likely will shortly enough.

:belkar: : Do I get to cause the death of any of the following: Miko, Miko's stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius or you [the Oracle]?
Oracle: Yes.
Analysis: Long debated about, but revealed to be literally and unambiguously true with a simple explanation in #567. Belkar killed the Oracle, thereby fulfilling the prophecy.

:haley: (translated): What can I do to restore my speech?
Oracle: When the gift horse comes knocking, don't look it in the mouth.
Analysis: Pretty ambiguous. The answer was obviously a metaphor even before we knew the outcome. Now fulfilled since Haley got her speech back after the Nale date subplot.

:vaarsuvius: : How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?
Oracle: By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons.
Analysis: While confusing, this is because it lacks context, not because it is ambiguous. It actually tells us a great deal, starting with the fact that V will acquire "complete and total ultimate arcane power," even if only temporarily. Beyond that, we know she'll do so by saying exactly four words to exactly one being at a particular, supposedly-important time, but for what could be considered to be the wrong reasons. What we're missing is what those words are, who the being is, when the time is, and what the reasons are. The general meaning is clear, it's just the specifics that are lacking (unlike, say, Haley's, where what the gift horse metaphor meant in any sense was completely debatable, and all we could get from it clearly was that Haley would at some point get her speech back).

Extra: :belkar: will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the [in-comic] year.
See also: "The Halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA." "He should savor his next birthday cake." "At any rate, your pal isn't long for this world."
Analysis: I believe this one will end up like Belkar's previous prophecy. We've got plenty of people arguing over it, with many trying to find ways to explain it that let Belkar live in some way or another or at least continue to participate in the Order. The most obvious explanation, though, is that Belkar will die within the in-comic year and never be raised, and I've yet to see any spins on it that get past all of the Oracle's hints and comments on the matter.

Looks to me like the only ambiguous one is Haley's, and the only ones even really being argued are the extra one for Belkar and V's. Not exactly a record that makes it look like the Oracle's predictions are at all ambiguous.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

Blackwing: <indecipherable cawing>
Oracle: Try ginkgo biloba.
Analysis: More like advice than a prophecy, really. It seems to have been a treatment for something - possibly vertigo, if Wikipedia can be trusted. In any event, direct and unambiguous.

Slight nitpick: GB also aids memory (which function is more widely known), and I think Blackwing's request was along the lines of "how can I get my master to remember I exist" or somesuch. I doubt the bird has vertigo given how high he flew in #154 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html), and in that same comic V completely forgot his existence.

At any rate, Belkar's first prophecy is ambiguous until he causes the death of Vaarsuvius. Until then it IS vague as we didn't know (at the time) which persons on his list he would be causing the death of. Yes would only be an unambiguous response if it was referring to everyone he mentioned.

[Flame of Anor]

Yes, I'm making a prediction about the four words Vaarsuvius will speak to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons, and thereby achieve ultimate arcane power:

They'll be obvious.

When Vaarsuvius finally speaks the words, everyone (except the "Belkar is Chaotic Neutral" people) will know those were the words.

Thank you so much! This is what I've been trying to say for quite a while. It would just be a bad plot device if they weren't obvious. That said, speculation can be fun...I'm guessing the "right being" will be someone evil like Xykon or the Snarl...maybe V will be making a "devil's bargain"...or something like that.

[Zevox]

At any rate, Belkar's first prophecy is ambiguous until he causes the death of Vaarsuvius. Until then it IS vague as we didn't know (at the time) which persons on his list he would be causing the death of. Yes would only be an unambiguous response if it was referring to everyone he mentioned.
Er, no. Since Belkar asked if he would cause the death of any of them, "yes" is an unambiguous answer - he would cause the death of at least one of them. That it doesn't give him precisely who is beside the point entirely, since he didn't ask that. And in any event, as I mentioned above, the whole set-up in #567 makes it pretty obvious the prophecy only actually referred to him killing the Oracle, especially since the Oracle himself said he wasn't buying the explanations he tried to sell Belkar about it.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

Er, no. Since Belkar asked if he would cause the death of any of them, "yes" is an unambiguous answer - he would cause the death of at least one of them. That it doesn't give him precisely who is beside the point entirely, since he didn't ask that. And in any event, as I mentioned above, the whole set-up in #567 makes it pretty obvious the prophecy only actually referred to him killing the Oracle, especially since the Oracle himself said he wasn't buying the explanations he tried to sell Belkar about it.

Zevox

Fair enough. No comment on the Biloba? :smallamused:


(except the "Belkar is Chaotic Neutral" people)

I'm just as much in the CE Belkar camp as most other people (including the Giant) but certainly going back to help the girls when he didn't have to is helping his case. He's probably doing it just so he can get exp from the Big Bads that disabled them, but still...

[Zevox]

Fair enough. No comment on the Biloba? :smallamused:
Not really, you seem to have that one covered. I see no reason to argue your point at any rate, since I was just guessing what Blackwing had been asking based on the Oracle's response, and your guess is at least as good as mine.


I'm just as much in the CE Belkar camp as most other people (including the Giant) but certainly going back to help the girls when he didn't have to is helping his case. He's probably doing it just so he can get exp from the Big Bads that disabled them, but still...
Well, more than likely it's also due to his recent fake character development. He can hardly get into his new, sneaky method of being CE if he doesn't pretend to have changed so as to convince his companions that he has changed, after all. And in any event he probably wants to get the Order reunited as much as anyone, so that they get back to questing so that he can kill things without anyone badgering him about it again, and he's not likely to have that happen if he doesn't stick with Haley.

Zevox

[[TS] Shadow]

The way that the prophecy is set up implys that V will get his power immediately after saying the four words (because they are the reason he gains the power.) Thus, the words will be obvious. Now lets move on as a society.

[Optimystik]

Well, more than likely it's also due to his recent fake character development. He can hardly get into his new, sneaky method of being CE if he doesn't pretend to have changed so as to convince his companions that he has changed, after all. And in any event he probably wants to get the Order reunited as much as anyone, so that they get back to questing so that he can kill things without anyone badgering him about it again, and he's not likely to have that happen if he doesn't stick with Haley.

Zevox

I agree it may be fake, but given that alignment is based on actions and not motivations, he is going to shift a point or two towards good from helping them regardless. He even complains about a very similar situation in Amoral Dilemma. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html)

[zach12376]

we already know the words

"i prepared explosive runes"

Most certanly

[Zevox]

I agree it may be fake, but given that alignment is based on actions and not motivations, he is going to shift a point or two towards good from helping them regardless. He even complains about a very similar situation in Amoral Dilemma. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html)
True, though he'll likely counterbalance those "points" pretty quickly, given his actual motivations and desires haven't changed a bit, so we can bet he'll still do plenty of evil.

I'd say that's actually more of a flaw in the D&D alignment system than anything else, really. But of course flaws in that thing aren't new.

Zevox

[David Argall]

When Vaarsuvius finally speaks the words, everyone (except the "Belkar is Chaotic Neutral" people) will know

Properly, this should read "(except this version of the "Belkar is CN" people)...".
The "Belkar is CN" type is not particularly unobservant, nor a backer of particular theories about the four words. Some of these will spot the 4 words, and some of the rest of us will not.
All of us have ideas the rest of us deem absurd. [Mine of course are actually well founded.] The Belkar crowd merely had the bad luck to choose an idea that was quickly and completely proved wrong. They are not [greatly anyway] inferior to the rest of us in spotting other things.

[KerfuffleMach2]

One thing I notice all of the theories here say. That V will only speak those four words. What if, to make it a little less obvious, and maybe more funny, those four words are in one of V's famous extra-long explanations? I mean, it was never stated that it had to be a four word statement. And for that matter, who said the words had to be together?

Just some thoughts.

[Zevox]

One thing I notice all of the theories here say. That V will only speak those four words. What if, to make it a little less obvious, and maybe more funny, those four words are in one of V's famous extra-long explanations? I mean, it was never stated that it had to be a four word statement. And for that matter, who said the words had to be together?

Just some thoughts.
For the former, then you'd have to explain why the Oracle specified those four words out of the longer speech.

As for the idea that they would be separate, it seems to clash with the Oracle's singular "at the right time," which implies they will all be said at the same time.

Zevox

[Limos]

It would be hilarious if the four words ended up being something innocent. The "right time" doesn't mean he will immediately gain arcane power. Just that saying them at that particular moment will eventually lead to arcane power.

It could be something as simple as.

Strip 613
Source of Magic: Have you seen my butterscotch?
Vaarsuvius: (1)Try (2)the (3) top (4)shelf.
Source of Magic: Thanks.

300 strips later...

Strip 913
Source of Magic: Hey you're that guy who found my butterscotch.
Vaarsuvius: And you apparently are a demigod of arcane power.
Source of Magic: Here have some!

Vaasuvius obtained Arcane Power. doo-dee-doo-doo-dee-dee-doooooooo

[Assassin89]

It would be hilarious if the four words ended up being something innocent. The "right time" doesn't mean he will immediately gain arcane power. Just that saying them at that particular moment will eventually lead to arcane power.

It could be something as simple as.

Strip 613
Source of Magic: Have you seen my butterscotch?
Vaarsuvius: (1)Try (2)the (3) top (4)shelf.
Source of Magic: Thanks.

300 strips later...

Strip 913
Source of Magic: Hey you're that guy who found my butterscotch.
Vaarsuvius: And you apparently are a demigod of arcane power.
Source of Magic: Here have some!

Vaasuvius obtained Arcane Power. doo-dee-doo-doo-dee-dee-doooooooo

great zelda reference. The could be some truth to your statements, if Rich does not subvert these expectations. Arcane power could come as a later reward for a deed or given after the four words.

[Animefunkmaster]

we already know the words

"i prepared explosive runes"


I am in favor of the doily reference.

[Assassin89]

If the four words reveal V's gender, it could kill two speculations with one stone.
I can see the potential title "four words that kill two avian creatures", which Rich will probably not use.

[Greep]

I wonder if kish intended this to reach 26+ posts >.> At least we provide her with entertainment eh?

[hungryLIKEALION]

Kish totally has it right.

[Ashio]

V:I(1) gained(2) twentyfirst(3) level(4)
for the person...uhh..ok that's hard...perhaps to Belkar's corpse after V killed him? (wild speculation,I know,I know)

but I liked the "explosive Runes" idea best xP

[David Argall]

Shadow;5415701']The way that the prophecy is set up implys that V will get his power immediately after saying the four words (because they are the reason he gains the power.) Thus, the words will be obvious. Now lets move on as a society.

Possible, even probable, but Haley spent several strips and some hours not looking that gift horse in the mouth. So a delay is not to be ruled out.

[SSGW Priest]

Analyzing each of the prophecies is a good idea, actually.

:elan: : Will this story have a happy ending?
Oracle: Yes - for you at least.
Analysis: Unambiguous. For Elan, the ending of the overall comic story will be a happy one. Definitely this tells us he will survive, that Xykon or Nale won't conquer the world, and that the Snarl almost certainly won't be unleashed, or that if it is it won't obliterate the world or even cause enough damage to deny Elan his happiness; and odds are it means Haley survives and the two marry as well.

Zevox

You over looked a caveat on this one; Xykon or Nale won't conquer the world, and that the Snarl almost certainly won't be unleashed... in Elan's lifetime.

[Zevox]

You over looked a caveat on this one; Xykon or Nale won't conquer the world, and that the Snarl almost certainly won't be unleashed... in Elan's lifetime.
:smallconfused: And how can the comic have a happy ending for Elan if he fails to live to see the ending? Why would we assume that the whole matter with the Snarl will continue after the comic is over?

Zevox

[Grognard]

the four words will be "where's my lamb shank?"

[Setra]

You over looked a caveat on this one; Xykon or Nale won't conquer the world, and that the Snarl almost certainly won't be unleashed... in Elan's lifetime.
One must wonder.. a Story can have a happy ending, then a sequel less than happy...

[tcrudisi]

I don't know how to do the whole quote thing, but this is from Zevox, "And how can the comic have a happy ending for Elan if he fails to live to see the ending? Why would we assume that the whole matter with the Snarl will continue after the comic is over?"

For one, he could die in some ridiculously gallant way to save Haley's life. He would die happy, hence the happy ending. He is a bard, so dieing gallantly for the one he loves would be his ideal death.

Do I think this will happen? No, but it could, so I thought I'd answer your question.

[Kish]

I don't know how to do the whole quote thing,
The button in the lower righthand corner of each post that says "QUOTE."

[Lerky]

the actual four words in my opinion are not "I prepared explosieve runes" or "Hand me a doily" no I actually have an actual guess:smallwink:
"SHOW ME HALEY STARSHINE!" V has been working for so long that s/he is on the brink of (or actually in) madness that s/he's is doing it, no longer to save Haley or Roy, but to perserve his/her own self image. All the wrong reasons. The imp known as Qarr has obviously shown interest in V and it seems that he has enough power (i.e. summoning a giant demon) to help V, which will be the right being. As for the right time that would most likely be when the Coilster spell wares off.well lets see. That's four words, right time, right being, and all the wrong reasons. Seems good to me:smalltongue:

[Zevox]

well lets see. That's four words, right time, right being, and all the wrong reasons. Seems good to me:smalltongue:
Setting aside objections I'd raise about Quarr's abilities for a moment, you're missing one rather crucial element here: namely, how on earth does this scenario get V "complete and total ultimate arcane power?"
Zevox

[Scion_of_Darkness]

I'm still surprised that no one has brought up the humble doily yet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)

Edit: Never mind. I need to read everything next time.

[tcrudisi]

The button in the lower righthand corner of each post that says "QUOTE."

Thanks! It should have seemed obvious, but I never saw it before.

[ThisIsNotDan]

I somehow haven't heard THAT much debate on V's four words, probably because I didn't join the forums until after V left the group. I, however, am of the opinion that the 4 words are
Disintegrate. Gust of wind.
(Also, I'm taking a guess as to how the spoiler tags work, since I can't seem to find them in the rich text editor)

I'm sure there's been all kinds of debate on this one already, but the way I see it, the words were said for all the wrong reasons (as V explained in the following comic), and the situation that arose from it ultimately led him to leave the group, which led him to meet up with Qarr, who probably has some friends with some pretty hardcore arcane power. He would not have left the group if he had not said those particular words to the right person (and I don't care if casting a spell doesn't count as saying them "to" someone).

I just wanna have it on the record that I called this one in case it actually works out. I've always wanted to be able to do that O.o

[Trazoi]

ThisIsNotDan, unfortunately I remember a huge amount of speculation about those particular four words, so your call is not unique. I thought those threads were the justification for this one, actually. :smallbiggrin:

I'm hoping for "Hand me a doily", myself.

[Alair]

I somehow haven't heard THAT much debate on V's four words, probably because I didn't join the forums until after V left the group. I, however, am of the opinion that the 4 words are
Disintegrate. Gust of wind.

Dittoed. I doubt there's anything innately remarkable about the words, it's just that which will (has) set V on the course that will lead to the power V seeks.

[gjp]

Not a total derailment, but are there any Hitchiker's guide to the galaxy fans out there?


I found this quote online.... for some reason, when I think of V's four words, I think of this brief section...

For instance, at the very moment that Arthur said "I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle," a freak wormhole opened up in the fabric of the space-time continuum and carried his words far far back in time across almost infinite reaches of space to a distant Galaxy where strange and warlike beings were poised on the brink of frightful interstellar battle.

The two opposing leaders were meeting for the last time. A dreadful silence fell across the conference table as the commander of the Vl'hurgs, resplendent in his black jewelled battle shorts, gazed levelly at the G'Gugvuntt leader squatting opposite him in a cloud of green sweet-smelling steam, and, with a million sleek and horribly beweaponed star cruisers poised to unleash electric death at his single word of command, challenged the vile creature to take back what it had said about his mother. The creature stirred in his sickly broiling vapour, and at that very moment the words I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle drifted across the conference table.

Unfortunately, in the Vl'hurg tongue this was the most dreadful insult imaginable, and there was nothing for it but to wage terrible war for centuries.

[David Argall]

I somehow haven't heard THAT much debate on V's four words, probably because I didn't join the forums until after V left the group.
Look back and you will see loads of threads, some of the rather long.



I, however, am of the opinion that the 4 words are
Disintegrate. Gust of wind.

the words were said for all the wrong reasons (as V explained in the following comic),
V's reasons were entirely valid. Kubota was guilty of crime worthy of a death sentence, and was threatening to make more trouble.


and the situation that arose from it ultimately led him to leave the group,
Now note you say "ultimately". We are not certain, but the presumption is there is not a serious gap in time between the four words and ultimate arcane power. When it doesn't happen before the next day, if then, the idea is suspect. Nor do we have much evidence that the Kubota incident was a serious cause of her leaving. V in fact blames the whole series of events.



which led him to meet up with Qarr, who probably has some friends with some pretty hardcore arcane power.
But if we bring in Qarr, we have better candidates for the 4 words, such as "I accept your deal." that would be closer related to the being and other details.



He would not have left the group if he had not said those particular words to the right person (and I don't care if casting a spell doesn't count as saying them "to" someone).

What you don't care is unimportant. The casting of a spell is not saying anything to anybody, particularly a person who has ceased to exist after the first word (which properly should not be deemed merely one word.)
So the idea is challenged as not four words, not to anybody, much less the right person, and not for the wrong reasons.

[Finwe]

the actual four words in my opinion are not "I prepared explosieve runes" or "Hand me a doily" no I actually have an actual guess:smallwink:
"SHOW ME HALEY STARSHINE!" V has been working for so long that s/he is on the brink of (or actually in) madness that s/he's is doing it, no longer to save Haley or Roy, but to perserve his/her own self image. All the wrong reasons. The imp known as Qarr has obviously shown interest in V and it seems that he has enough power (i.e. summoning a giant demon) to help V, which will be the right being. As for the right time that would most likely be when the Coilster spell wares off.well lets see. That's four words, right time, right being, and all the wrong reasons. Seems good to me:smalltongue:

You forgot the COMPLETE AND TOTAL ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER part. :smalltongue:

The prophecy doesn't say that V will make a deal with the a devil, it says that he will obtain "complete and total ultimate arcane power" (by "saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons"). If any devil had that sort of power laying around, they wouldn't be bartering it for a single mortal's soul.

P.S. Why would the "when the Cloister spell wares off" be the right time? V would be able to find Haley himself once the cloister wore off.

[Alair]

V's reasons were entirely valid. Kubota was guilty of crime worthy of a death sentence, and was threatening to make more trouble.

But those weren't V's reasons. V's reasons were that Kubota was Elan's prisoner and as such could be safely assumed to be a "valid target". The four right words (disintegrate, gust of wind), to the right person (Kubota), at the right time (Where he was isolated and the only witness would be Elan), and for all the wrong reasons (Nothing to do with Kubota's past crimes, everything with wanting to avoid anything else that might eat up her too-precious time).


Now note you say "ultimately". We are not certain, but the presumption is there is not a serious gap in time between the four words and ultimate arcane power. When it doesn't happen before the next day, if then, the idea is suspect. Nor do we have much evidence that the Kubota incident was a serious cause of her leaving. V in fact blames the whole series of events.

How long a gap was there between V's execution and her leaving the order? Less than a day, certainly. Would Elan have tried to play peacemaker between V and Durkon if he hadn't been witness to it?


But if we bring in Qarr, we have better candidates for the 4 words, such as "I accept your deal." that would be closer related to the being and other details.

But what would the "wrong reasons" be? V's intelligent enough to know what making a deal with the devil (imp) means. V's ultimate goal, always though especially apparent as of late, is power and as long as any deal she might make should lead to it it would have to be the "right reasons" from V's point of view.

[Lkctgo]

But those weren't V's reasons. V's reasons were that Kubota was Elan's prisoner and as such could be safely assumed to be a "valid target". The four right words (disintegrate, gust of wind), to the right person (Kubota), at the right time (Where he was isolated and the only witness would be Elan), and for all the wrong reasons (Nothing to do with Kubota's past crimes, everything with wanting to avoid anything else that might eat up her too-precious time).



How long a gap was there between V's execution and her leaving the order? Less than a day, certainly. Would Elan have tried to play peacemaker between V and Durkon if he hadn't been witness to it?



But what would the "wrong reasons" be? V's intelligent enough to know what making a deal with the devil (imp) means. V's ultimate goal, always though especially apparent as of late, is power and as long as any deal she might make should lead to it it would have to be the "right reasons" from V's point of view.

Well Alair, the wrong reason could just be that she was not trying to gain power with the pact, but rather using the pact as a way to gain enough power only to find Haley Starshine. The wrong reason in this case is that instead of saying such words for power, she is saying such words for a more noble reason(finding haley).

[Kish]

ThisIsNotDan, unfortunately I remember a huge amount of speculation about those particular four words, so your call is not unique. I thought those threads were the justification for this one, actually. :smallbiggrin:
Those threads were a very small subsection of the justification for this one. :smallyuk:

(There's even a bonus strip in War and XPs where Elan attempts to guess the four words, and Roy tries to explain to him the failed logistics of his situation.)

[Alair]

Well Alair, the wrong reason could just be that she was not trying to gain power with the pact, but rather using the pact as a way to gain enough power only to find Haley Starshine. The wrong reason in this case is that instead of saying such words for power, she is saying such words for a more noble reason(finding haley).

My impression of V is that her -unique- reaction to being unable to find Haley is at least slightly less personal concern for her sake than personal offense that her magic's not up to the job.

Even if that were the reason though, it would still be V's Right Reason. Whether V's doing it for power, finding her friend, saving the world or even any combination thereof, as long as she's doing it with her eyes open it would be hard to say she's doing it for the wrong reason.

She's getting what she expects, she's selling her soul for X price to do Y deed(s).

[David Argall]

But those weren't V's reasons. V's reasons were that Kubota was Elan's prisoner and as such could be safely assumed to be a "valid target".
Which means he was guilty of some crime that merited the death penalty.



The four right words (disintegrate, gust of wind), to the right person (Kubota),
The four "words" were properly a good deal more than 4 words. The comic merely shows the spell title. But Power Word Blind is in comic and game 1 word, not three, and other spells are some substantial number of words even if they have short titles.
And Kubota did not exist where the last "three" of these words were spoken.


at the right time (Where he was isolated and the only witness would be Elan)

We see no sign that V cared.


and for all the wrong reasons (Nothing to do with Kubota's past crimes, everything with wanting to avoid anything else that might eat up her too-precious time).
But it had a lot to do with Kubota's past crimes since he would not qualify as a valid target without them. And his talk about using up time only makes sense if she assumes Kubota is going to do more crimes.



How long a gap was there between V's execution and her leaving the order? Less than a day, certainly. Would Elan have tried to play peacemaker between V and Durkon if he hadn't been witness to it?
Would Elan have had any chance of success? V does not respect Elan's opinion.



But what would the "wrong reasons" be?
There are a variety of possible ones.



V's intelligent enough to know what making a deal with the devil (imp) means.
The example of Dr. Faust tells us that intelligence does not bar making a deal with the devil for the wrong reasons.


V's ultimate goal, always though especially apparent as of late, is power and as long as any deal she might make should lead to it it would have to be the "right reasons" from V's point of view.
We can not be sure this means right reasons from V's view. And it would not be hard to say that power is in fact not V's desire. When you come down to it, power is only a means to an end. So a closer look might find that V wants power to push people around, or to avoid being pushed around, or to achieve respect, or ... We may not be able to guess the motive, but the idea that V wants power because she wants power is rather absurd. There needs to be some deeper motive, however well hidden.
That V has not mentioned such a motive is not important here. V has merely decided power is the path to his goal, and thus does not need to mention her ultimate goal. But this in turn means that power-gaining can conflict with his ultimate goal and she can then do something for the wrong reasons.

[Thorin]

I´ve known the four words for some time:

NO MORE FREAKING PREDICTIONS

[Alair]

Which means he was guilty of some crime that merited the death penalty.

Because Elan had him tied up? Because she overheard him talking about what a grand, showy trial he would have? Kubota merited death for any number of reasons but neither of those would make the list.


The four "words" were properly a good deal more than 4 words. The comic merely shows the spell title. But Power Word Blind is in comic and game 1 word, not three, and other spells are some substantial number of words even if they have short titles.
And Kubota did not exist where the last "three" of these words were spoken.

It's the way things seem to work in the comic. Exactly how much time do you suppose Nale could have had to ready his spell in this one?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html

And if I were to say four words to a person, punctuated by shooting an arrow into their heart after the first, you would be raising the same technicality?


But it had a lot to do with Kubota's past crimes since he would not qualify as a valid target without them. And his talk about using up time only makes sense if she assumes Kubota is going to do more crimes.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html

Panel 8? V knows Kubota was talking his trial, which V deemed a pointless, unfunny waste of time.


Would Elan have had any chance of success? V does not respect Elan's opinion.

As the only remaining party member with any charisma he certainly would have had the best chance of talking V around. At the very least though the incident with Elan afterwords probably provided the breaking point in V's decision to leave, it persuading Elan that that would be for the best beside. If V was already intending to leave she wouldn't have bothered trying to intimidate Elan into keeping quiet about it.


There are a variety of possible ones.

The example of Dr. Faust tells us that intelligence does not bar making a deal with the devil for the wrong reasons.

So what are the right reasons to be making a deal with the devil? If V accepts a deal with Qarr's hypothetical masters for the power to come rushing in and rescue Haley and receives it, how can that be for the wrong reasons? Even if Haley rescues herself in the interim, V would have gotten what she thought she was getting.


We can not be sure this means right reasons from V's view. And it would not be hard to say that power is in fact not V's desire. When you come down to it, power is only a means to an end. So a closer look might find that V wants power to push people around, or to avoid being pushed around, or to achieve respect, or ... We may not be able to guess the motive, but the idea that V wants power because she wants power is rather absurd. There needs to be some deeper motive, however well hidden.
That V has not mentioned such a motive is not important here. V has merely decided power is the path to his goal, and thus does not need to mention her ultimate goal. But this in turn means that power-gaining can conflict with his ultimate goal and she can then do something for the wrong reasons.

If there was something V desired more than Ultimate Arcane Power, wouldn't she have asked the oracle about it instead?

[David Argall]

Because Elan had him tied up?
Precisely.
V is our Sherlock Holmes type character here. She talks briefly with them and can distinguish between Elan and Nale. He hears Belkar's plan to make Miko fall, and immediately points out the flaw in it. She is the brains of the party.
As he points out, Elan would not have Kubota roped up unless he was a major criminal. She can not say what his crime is, but he can be sure it is something worthy of death.


Because she overheard him talking about what a grand, showy trial he would have?
Which in turn means he would continue to cause major trouble, with no assurance he would get the punishment he deserved.



It's the way things seem to work in the comic. Exactly how much time do you suppose Nale could have had to ready his spell in this one?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html
To the extent our writer was following D&D rules at this point, it is not hard to say Nale had the normal 6 seconds. Belkar had just attacked, and it is Nale's turn. [Now Belkar should have had an AoO in most cases, but that is a different issue.] On a more real life basis, Belkar is busy giving a speech and again Nale has time for the spell.


And if I were to say four words to a person, punctuated by shooting an arrow into their heart after the first, you would be raising the same technicality?
No, I would likely point out that the last 3 words seems to be completely irrelevant. But the prophecy makes a point of the 4 words, which means all 4 are important. Thus the situation is completely weird, or those are not the right 4 words.



If V was already intending to leave she wouldn't have bothered trying to intimidate Elan into keeping quiet about it.
Reasonable enough, but the last straw largely decides when, not if. Even if we assume V would not have left the next day, she would have found a reason the day after that or the day after that.


If V accepts a deal with Qarr's hypothetical masters for the power to come rushing in and rescue Haley and receives it, how can that be for the wrong reasons? Even if Haley rescues herself in the interim, V would have gotten what she thought she was getting.
All sorts of ways. There is a vast literature on how deals with the devil can go bad. One idea might be that the devil provide V with the power to rescue Haley, but not the knowledge of how to use that power, with the result that V kills Haley in the rescue attempt.


If there was something V desired more than Ultimate Arcane Power, wouldn't she have asked the oracle about it instead?
Not necessarily. He thinks he know how to get that, by getting greater arcane power. So the problem becomes how to get that arcane power.
How do I impress a girl? An 8-9 figure bank account sounds likely to work. How do I get that bank account? Well... Maybe I should ask the Oracle about lottery numbers...

[Kaytara]

Precisely.
V is our Sherlock Holmes type character here. She talks briefly with them and can distinguish between Elan and Nale. He hears Belkar's plan to make Miko fall, and immediately points out the flaw in it. She is the brains of the party.
As he points out, Elan would not have Kubota roped up unless he was a major criminal. She can not say what his crime is, but he can be sure it is something worthy of death.


David, you keep arguing your points as if Vaarsuvius executed Kubota BECAUSE the latter deserved an execution for his wicked crimes. But that wasn't the reason. Vaarsuvius explicitly states that he killed Kubota in order to prevent a time-consuming legal affair. The part about Kubota being a valid target just means that V wondered IF he could simply remove a person just like that, and decided that said person being tied up by Elan (and apparently being a major villain) is confirmation enough.

In short, Vaarsuvius killed Kubota because he didn't like the idea of another trial, not because he cared about Kubota being evil and deserving justice. The fact that Elan happened to have him tied up just told Vaarsuvius that he was allowed to do so. It was not his primary reason for coming up with the idea of killing Kubota in the first place.

[Jwioden]

Ooo I have a prediction. how about " I love you Belkar". i Have absolutly no evidence and am guessing this has been said before. but give me a break. I'm new.
Also, does it really matter what she says? what happens will happen.

[Alair]

Precisely.
V is our Sherlock Holmes type character here. She talks briefly with them and can distinguish between Elan and Nale. He hears Belkar's plan to make Miko fall, and immediately points out the flaw in it. She is the brains of the party.
As he points out, Elan would not have Kubota roped up unless he was a major criminal. She can not say what his crime is, but he can be sure it is something worthy of death.

Based on nothing more than the inference that Elan would only bother capturing a major villain and overhearing him talking about a long, waste-of-time trial?
V: According to your own words, he probably deserved death anyways.

It fits "Right person for the wrong reasons" perfectly.


Which in turn means he would continue to cause major trouble, with no assurance he would get the punishment he deserved.

The only trouble V cares about is that which might distract from her studies.


To the extent our writer was following D&D rules at this point, it is not hard to say Nale had the normal 6 seconds. Belkar had just attacked, and it is Nale's turn. [Now Belkar should have had an AoO in most cases, but that is a different issue.] On a more real life basis, Belkar is busy giving a speech and again Nale has time for the spell.

Well, the only actual D&D experience I have is from Neverwinter where all casting times are the same anyways but in the whole run of the strip the only on panel spell I can remember with an actual incantation was Durkon's Thor's Lightning but even that was just "Thorslightningthorslightningthorslightning" over and over.


No, I would likely point out that the last 3 words seems to be completely irrelevant. But the prophecy makes a point of the 4 words, which means all 4 are important. Thus the situation is completely weird, or those are not the right 4 words.

Or the four words are four words simply because they happen to be uttered together rather than because of any deep universe shattering implications of each or possibly even because there will be deeper effects of the attempt to conceal Kubota's murder than have yet become apparent.


Reasonable enough, but the last straw largely decides when, not if. Even if we assume V would not have left the next day, she would have found a reason the day after that or the day after that.

Possible but that she hadn't on the day before or the day before that suggests that if things had been not too much different the status quo might have endured awhile longer, possibly even up to the point that the Cloister effect would end on its own.


All sorts of ways. There is a vast literature on how deals with the devil can go bad. One idea might be that the devil provide V with the power to rescue Haley, but not the knowledge of how to use that power, with the result that V kills Haley in the rescue attempt.

That Deals With the Devil are always meant to screw the dealie over is nothing new however it has nothing to do with the *reason* that you accept such a deal in the first place. In your example the problem would be a metaphorical failure to read the fine print (or possibly take your new powers out for a test-run first). It's bargaining with the wrong person for the right reasons.


Not necessarily. He thinks he know how to get that, by getting greater arcane power. So the problem becomes how to get that arcane power.
How do I impress a girl? An 8-9 figure bank account sounds likely to work. How do I get that bank account? Well... Maybe I should ask the Oracle about lottery numbers...

Fair enough and time will shortly tell.

[Banjooie]

I looked fairly carefully, but since nobody seems to have mentioned it yet.

gingko biloba is an herb that's supposed to improve memory.

You now all understand why the raven was asking for it.

[Tholok Razescar]

Here's a guess:

" I request more lubricant."

...

What?

[Kaytara]

Possible but that she hadn't on the day before or the day before that suggests that if things had been not too much different the status quo might have endured awhile longer, possibly even up to the point that the Cloister effect would end on its own.r]

Actually, it needn't have been even that long - if we assume that Haley arriving in Pete's hideout and the giant devil incident happened concurrently (which seems to be the case), and that the Cleric's Sending spell was at least partially successful, the status quo need only have endured for another eight days. Whatever different incident might otherwise have caused Vaarsuvius to leave the party would not have happened, as by that point they'd have already located Haley and would be on the way to Greysky.

[Mariel Dragon]

I think, it will be "I am a girl" (or boy). Because Rich said, he would never reveal V's gender, this will prove that Rich is fallible and thus destroy the OotS-verse. V will be able to escape the destruction because s/he is the cause for it and become real. And to be real is - for an imaginary construct - pretty much ultimate power, as V will be able to persuade Rich into recreating the comic how V wishes it, with ultimate arcane power inside.

[Kaytara]

I think, it will be "I am a girl" (or boy). Because Rich said, he would never reveal V's gender, this will prove that Rich is fallible and thus destroy the OotS-verse. V will be able to escape the destruction because s/he is the cause for it and become real. And to be real is - for an imaginary construct - pretty much ultimate power, as V will be able to persuade Rich into recreating the comic how V wishes it, with ultimate arcane power inside.

Then perhaps an alternative would be "I'm a real boy!" :smallbiggrin: XD

[OOTS_Supporter]

I think "for all the wrong reasons" is simply to GET ultimate arcane power.

[flufmasta]

:vaarsuvius: "I love you Belkar"

:belkar: Takes his last breath. Ever.

Two fer one!

[dark-sage 95]

Has anyone pondered the Idea that V realises s/he's just a drawing in a webcomic??

I'm betting on:

*I will hack illustrater*
or the like.

[OOTS_Supporter]

I think most people are forgetting one thing: That she achieves Ultimate Arcane Power.

Saying, I love you, Belkar or I am a girl/boy, does NOT give you ultimate arcane power.

[Weimann]

:vaarsuvius: : How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?
Oracle: By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons.
Analysis: While confusing, this is because it lacks context, not because it is ambiguous. It actually tells us a great deal, starting with the fact that V will acquire "complete and total ultimate arcane power," even if only temporarily. Beyond that, we know she'll do so by saying exactly four words to exactly one being at a particular, supposedly-important time, but for what could be considered to be the wrong reasons. What we're missing is what those words are, who the being is, when the time is, and what the reasons are. The general meaning is clear, it's just the specifics that are lacking (unlike, say, Haley's, where what the gift horse metaphor meant in any sense was completely debatable, and all we could get from it clearly was that Haley would at some point get her speech back).That can be discussed. It nowhere actually states that V will say those words, only that if s/he does, s/he will obtain said power (and, in fact, not conclusively at once, either, but I agree the wording suggests that).

[Assassin89]

Ritual in which not having a clearly defined gender results in death. V shouts out four word phrase revealing gender and gains ultimate arcane power due to the ritual.

[Kaytara]

That can be discussed. It nowhere actually states that V will say those words, only that if s/he does, s/he will obtain said power (and, in fact, not conclusively at once, either, but I agree the wording suggests that).

You would be right if Vaarsuvius had asked "How CAN I achieve...", or the like. But the exact wording V used was "How will I achieve", so an actual description of the circumstances rather than just "You won't" implies that this WILL indeed happen.

[Kish]

Has anyone pondered the Idea that V realises s/he's just a drawing in a webcomic??
Vaarsuvius already knows that.

[dark-sage 95]

the power would probably result in he/r death or change into a villan as there would be very little plotline if V could destroy everthing with a thought.

[Raging Gene Ray]

:vaarsuvius: "I love you Belkar"

:belkar: Takes his last breath. Ever.

Two fer one!

Apparently, Vaarsuvius plays rough.

[Mariel Dragon]

I think most people are forgetting one thing: That she achieves Ultimate Arcane Power.

Saying, I love you, Belkar or I am a girl/boy, does NOT give you ultimate arcane power.

read my explanation to see, why it WILL give V ultimate arcane power :smallwink:

[bluedolphin359]

I have two ideas about what the words will be. The first one, which was already stated, would reveal Vaarsuvius' gender. The second involves Haley. In #309, one of the secrets she tries to tell Elan is something that she believes that even Vaarsuvius doesn't know. Maybe, by Vaarsuvius discovering Haley's' secret and revealing it, s/he will gain power. (For those of you wondering, the translation is Elan, it turns out that I may not be exactly what you would call-)

[David Argall]

the power would probably result in he/r death or change into a villan as there would be very little plotline if V could destroy everthing with a thought.

Another idea is that she must give up the power, say because he is now so powerful that any attempt to rescue Haley would kill her instead, such as her weakest spell now causing 1000 hp damage to everybody within 10 miles, which would kill anybody attacking Haley, but...

[dark-sage 95]

@David

2 words shape spell

[David Argall]

@David

2 words shape spell

Power does not mean skill. If V asks for power, that does not include any ability to use that power well.

[dark-sage 95]

True but If he had ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER i'm pretty sure that would mean access to a lot of spells. It wouldn't take him long to research a shape spell, spell or even get one house-ruled in.

(or he could just take the feat) either way he still has spells like disintegrate, magic missle that don't have a large area of effect.

[Kokopelli Jones]

The oracle doesn't say that Belkar will die. He says that he will "draw his last breath -- ever." Undead Belkar? Golem Belkar? Belkar polymorphed into a non-breathing creature?

I like the idea that V's key four words are "I prepared explosive runes."

[Kish]

The oracle doesn't say that Belkar will die. He says that he will "draw his last breath -- ever." Undead Belkar? Golem Belkar? Belkar polymorphed into a non-breathing creature?
He also says Belkar's "not long for this world."

Belkar is going to die and not come back.

[Zevox]

The oracle doesn't say that Belkar will die. He says that he will "draw his last breath -- ever." Undead Belkar? Golem Belkar? Belkar polymorphed into a non-breathing creature?
He also gives a number of other comments about Belkar - he "shouldn't bother to fund his IRA," "should savor his next birthday cake," and "isn't long for this world" - all of which hint at death, not some loophole exploit to the specific wording of the prophecy. And really, after the resolution to Belkar's last prophecy, how can anyone take such loophole theories seriously?

Zevox

[Ulti]

I still think its odd how much the oracle goes out of his way to tell Roy that Belkar will die.

[Kokopelli Jones]

He also gives a number of other comments about Belkar - he "shouldn't bother to fund his IRA," "should savor his next birthday cake," and "isn't long for this world" - all of which hint at death, not some loophole exploit to the specific wording of the prophecy. And really, after the resolution to Belkar's last prophecy, how can anyone take such loophole theories seriously?

Zevox

Except that the only statement made under the influence of Tiamat -- or whatever the green glow is -- was the one I quoted above. The fact that the subsequent dismissal charm on Roy didn't work indicates that Oracle does make errors, when not under the influence, as it were.

Then again, I'm thinking in terms of how I would twist things in my writing, not how Rich Burlew would.

On the other hand, Belkar strikes me as the type of character who takes charge of himself and starts telling the writer what to do. On the other other hand, that's again an aspect of how I write.

[katkin]

'I am a Fish.'

V will have a Rimmer moment:smallwink:

[David Argall]

True but If he had ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER i'm pretty sure that would mean access to a lot of spells. It wouldn't take him long to research a shape spell, spell or even get one house-ruled in.

You are pretty much assuming that the guy supplying this power is an honest merchant, eager to supply you with what you want. Both story and game needs reject this idea. Satisfaction is dull. It can't be accepted unless the story or game is about to end. Instead the wish is found to be more trouble than it is worth. The guy gives you what you asked for, not what is wanted. In fact, he normally tries to twist it so you don't even get that.
So when V gets ultimate arcane power, she will get nothing else. No special skills, no knowledge about how to use it, and with drawbacks that make the power difficult or impossible to use.

[V Junior]

I´ve known the four words for some time:

NO MORE FREAKING PREDICTIONS


:vaarsuvius: "I love you Belkar"

:Belkar: Takes his last breath. Ever.

Bravo, gentlemen, bravo!

[Zevox]

Except that the only statement made under the influence of Tiamat -- or whatever the green glow is -- was the one I quoted above. The fact that the subsequent dismissal charm on Roy didn't work indicates that Oracle does make errors, when not under the influence, as it were.
Not so. Remember why he has that memory charm in the first place - so that things he says in offhand remarks like that don't get remembered. The only reason he'd bother with that is if his offhand remarks were just as accurate as his official predictions. Or in other words, because he has looked into or does look into the futures of his visitors at times other than when giving them their official predictions, and is prone to saying things that give those futures away.

As for Roy bypassing the memory charm, that merely shows, as Roy himself deduced immediately after it occurred, that the Oracle never bothered to look into the future to make sure the charm would work when he dismissed Roy. He merely assumed it would. That's a far cry different from his glimpses into the future being erroneous themselves. (Or, alternatively, the Oracle knew the charm would not work when he dismissed Roy, and had some reason we don't know of at this point for wanting him to remember what he'd seen there. Though that one seems more far-fetched to me, given the Oracle doesn't seem the sort to care much about anything in the world beyond the profits he makes from his predictions.)

Zevox

[daggaz]

Blackwing: <indecipherable cawing>
Oracle: Try ginkgo biloba.
Analysis: More like advice than a prophecy, really. It seems to have been a treatment for something - possibly vertigo, if Wikipedia can be trusted. In any event, direct and unambiguous.


Actually, I was pretty sure Blackwing wanted something he could slip into V's tea, so that V would freaking remember about him from time to time. Ginko Biloba helps with memory. :smalltongue:

[PhantomFox]

I'm betting on "Very well, I accept"

[Mollusk]

"i prepared explosive runes"

Dammit. Someone beat me to it. But it occurs to me now that it can't be, awesome as the idea is, because the phrase is actually "I prepared explosive runes this morning."

And they have to be written for someone to read. :smallannoyed:

[Mollusk]

Another idea is that she must give up the power, say because he is now so powerful that any attempt to rescue Haley would kill her instead, such as her weakest spell now causing 1000 hp damage to everybody within 10 miles, which would kill anybody attacking Haley, but...


So when V gets ultimate arcane power, she will get nothing else. No special skills, no knowledge about how to use it, and with drawbacks that make the power difficult or impossible to use.

Wow. I must say, masterfully thought. :smallsmile:

[David Argall]

As for Roy bypassing the memory charm, that merely shows, as Roy himself deduced immediately after it occurred, that the Oracle never bothered to look into the future to make sure the charm would work when he dismissed Roy. He merely assumed it would. (Or, alternatively, the Oracle knew the charm would not work when he dismissed Roy, and had some reason we don't know of at this point for wanting him to remember what he'd seen there.

A third idea would be that Roy will remember nothing of his time being dead when he is raised, in which case the difference between his forgetting right away and a little later can be easy to miss.

[Zevox]

A third idea would be that Roy will remember nothing of his time being dead when he is raised, in which case the difference between his forgetting right away and a little later can be easy to miss.
True. That one we'll actually be able to confirm or deny too. Hopefully fairly quickly once the Thieves' Guild arc wraps up...

Zevox

[Z-dan]

I'm not adding anything to the V's 4 words discussion, because I already like the idea of the doily and explosive runes...
However, I'm gonna make a point about Elan's prophecy that he'll have a happy ending- he asks 'will this STORY have a happy ending', though we know he's not afraid of pointing out that it's a comic... so the end of his story arc? Which, debateably, ends with him and Haley getting together.

[theinsulabot]

if roy cant remember anything after his res, then there wasnt much point in that caster interupt attack he learned from grandpa greenhilt

[Optimystik]

if roy cant remember anything after his res, then there wasnt much point in that caster interupt attack he learned from grandpa greenhilt

Precisely. It would also be extremely anticlimactic given the amount of celebrating he was doing after being Dismissed.

Occam's Razor - the kobold goofed.

[OOTS_Supporter]

Another thing about Elan's prophecy: It could mean that it would seem like a happy ending to him, or at least for the good guys, where as the bad guys ave a really sad moment and a dramatic event.

[dark-sage 95]

@ david:

interesting thought.

she may have ultimate arcane power but not know how to use it.
I get what your saying now!

[Azriel]

How do we know they havent already been said, or that we will see them at all with V on vacation? we may only see them in a flashback.

[Kaytara]

How do we know they havent already been said, or that we will see them at all with V on vacation? we may only see them in a flashback.

That is possible, but it would mean that Rich has passed up a perfectly good opportunity to build up tension and make us spend sleepless nights refreshing the page faster than a hummingbird beats its wings.

[Veriella]

I bet the four words were the two spells, V prepared in #595. You know, when he/she destroys Kubota with:
Desintegrate(1) and Gust(2) of(3) wind(4)
And in the next strip she/he flys away... Do you think V becomes evil now:smalleek:
I hope She/he comes back ...:smallfrown:

[factotum]

I bet the four words were the two spells, V prepared in #595. You know, when he/she destroys Kubota with:
Desintegrate(1) and Gust(2) of(3) wind(4)


Been said before many times, and the arguments against it are the same they've always been: V was casting spells, he was not saying those words to Kubota. Even if you somehow believe that pointing a finger and saying "Disintegrate!" is enough to actually make it happen in the OotSverse, how can you possibly say that "Gust of Wind" is being said to anybody? Kubota was a disintegrated pile of dust at that point and so is hardly a "being" the words are being said to.

[MickJay]

Let's not forget that "ultimate" means "last", "coming in the end" first and foremost - while Vaarsuvius might have been asking about how he will attain ultimate (final/greatest) power, the Oracle's reply might concern the ultimate (last) power obtained by Vaarsuvius, perhaps followed by loss of all arcane powers or death.

At the moment speculating on the nature of the words, beyond most general possibilities, is highly unlikely to give a result even close to correct. Vaarsuvius agreeing to aid/aiding Redcloak; Vaarsuvius addressing Snarl in the final battle; Vaarsuvius speaking with a god/gods; or Vaarsuvius ordering a coffee (for whatever wrong reasons), learning his last spell spell and dying from the poison in the coffee...

[Kazul]

That's quite simple, actually. V will get to an unknown to us specific location just in time ("at the right time") to see Loki and Thor arguing. Because of him being very irritated ("for all the wrong reasons") he will say to Loki ("to the right being") "Yo mama is fat" ("by saying right four words"). That will amuse Thor so much, that he will reward him with "complete and total ultimate arcane power". Think that would be great.

On a serious note, I think that threads like this one are quite pointless, because it is almost impossible for us to guess the real answer.

[Rotipher]

Perhaps, in the end, V will find that "ultimate arcane power" isn't what ve believes it is.

Perhaps it will be a gag power (e.g. how to not look like a wuss while dressed in a long flowing robe). Or perhaps it will be a self-defeating power (e.g. V infallibly repels all arcane energy ... including hir own spells-in-progress). Or perhaps the "ultimate arcane power" is the realization that throwing magic at one's problems can't fix everything.

[Veriella]

Been said before many times, and the arguments against it are the same they've always been: V was casting spells, he was not saying those words to Kubota. Even if you somehow believe that pointing a finger and saying "Disintegrate!" is enough to actually make it happen in the OotSverse, how can you possibly say that "Gust of Wind" is being said to anybody? Kubota was a disintegrated pile of dust at that point and so is hardly a "being" the words are being said to.

Sure. But V did say the words to a special person, not just to anyone. S/he meant Kubota and not Elan, for example. So V actually did say something to a person. And Gust of wind was still meant to Kubota (or his dust) and not to anyone else.
And it were the wrong reasons.
And now don`t tell me, that V didn`t get ultimate arcane power, yet.:smallannoyed: The words (yeah, I still believe it are the right ones) make V leave! This could (or will) lead V to gain ultimate arcane power, perhaps by meeting Qarr.

[MickJay]

That seems to me as just too far-fetched, a bit like Oracle trying to convince Belkar that he already caused deaths of people from his wish list. I mean, sure, in the end, casting the spell and leaving might have set off Vaarsuvius on the way that will, in future, result in V obtaining the power, but it's far more likely that -the- four words are still to be said. As to the circumstances in which I think they may be uttered, see my earlier post.

edit: plus, it has to be "the right being", not just "a special person", and the time seems to also play a crucial role in the prophecy. On top of that, Vaarsuvius had only one reason to kill Kubota, and it was a rather valid (though definitely not good) one, so "all the wrong reasons" part of prophecy doesn't fit here well, either.

[Dogmantra]

It's obvious what the words will be::vaarsuvius:(to Pompey): Your Mother never told you about your Father.
Pompey: She told me enough! She said he was a stupid adventurer, who never had time for her!
:vaarsuvius::I am your Father!
Pompey: NOOOOOOOOOO!
Thinly veiled Star Wars references are the key to a good plot. :P
Quite how that would lead V to gaining Ultimate Arcane Power I'm not sure, but I like it too much to use logic.

[Azriel]

ever stop to consider that the author might use posts like this as a list of what not to say "at the right time"?

[lordofthe_wog]

ever stop to consider that the author might use posts like this as a list of what not to say "at the right time"?

Wouldn't that mean V isn't going to have 4 words, considering about every possibility has been covered at least twice?

Hey, maybe its words will be "I need to bathe." in remarks to its recent state of physical (and mental) degeneration.

[Kish]

Wouldn't that mean V isn't going to have 4 words, considering about every possibility has been covered at least twice?
Physically and logically impossible. There are billions of possible combinations.

[David Argall]

Sure. But V did say the words to a special person, not just to anyone. S/he meant Kubota and not Elan, for example. So V actually did say something to a person. And Gust of wind was still meant to Kubota (or his dust) and not to anyone else.
Gust of Wind was not to anybody. Kubota was dead and gone.


And it were the wrong reasons.
V had quite valid reasons.


And now don`t tell me, that V didn`t get ultimate arcane power, yet.:smallannoyed: The words (yeah, I still believe it are the right ones) make V leave! This could (or will) lead V to gain ultimate arcane power, perhaps by meeting Qarr.
But if he is going to get power by dealing with Qarr, we obviously have closer 4 word combinations, such as "I accept your deal". That pretty much rules out the earlier possibility.

[Kaytara]

V had quite valid reasons.


You can't say that. Or rather, yes, killing someone to save time is a valid reason, but the problem is, we don't know exactly what is meant by "wrong reasons".
If we knew for certain that by "wrong" the Oracle meant "invalid", then you would be right. But "wrong" could also mean something like "immoral" or "bad", which is at least partially applicable here. "Wrong" could also mean that it is simply not the usual, standard reason someone would want to say those four words or would want ultimate arcane power. For example, a "wrong" reason like that could be something completely unrelated to arcane power and therefore not a "right" reason for wanting to obtain it.

[MickJay]

ever stop to consider that the author might use posts like this as a list of what not to say "at the right time"?

Not likely, since the 4 words seem to be a major plot thing and changing them (just because one of the dozens of posts discussiing the possibilities was close) would probably mean rewriting much of the carefully planned story. The story is very well crafted and told, and while the storyteller might change a few details here and there to entertain his audience better, the main plot advances as originally planned.

edit: V had only one single reason to kill Kubota, so regardless of how valid/wrong/good/evil it was, it was a reason, not all the reasons.

[hamishspence]

V listed a reason, and followed it up with an alternative- the reason being- Time wasted trying him, the alternative being- deserved death anyway. Both must be considered when discussing it-

and both may have motivated V to do it (though generally the first thing mentioned is considered the most important.)

[CrimsonAngel]

I always thought her four words would be "I love you belkar" and she would say that before either of them die. while one of them dies.

EDIT: or she might say "can I join you" to Xykon or someone evil.

[David Argall]

You can't say that.
I just did.


yes, killing someone to save time is a valid reason, but the problem is, we don't know exactly what is meant by "wrong reasons".
If we knew for certain that by "wrong" the Oracle meant "invalid", then you would be right. But "wrong" could also mean something like "immoral" or "bad", which is at least partially applicable here.
Not much, if at all. We have our own eyes and Elan's acknowledgment that Kubota deserved what he got. He was allowed to live on sufferance and when he threatened to remain a major pest...



"Wrong" could also mean that it is simply not the usual, standard reason someone would want to say those four words or would want ultimate arcane power. For example, a "wrong" reason like that could be something completely unrelated to arcane power and therefore not a "right" reason for wanting to obtain it.
"Wrong reasons" are reasons wildly different, often opposed, to the action. They are not merely unusual reasons. They are bad reasons [at least in the view of the speaker].

People like to harp on V dusting Kubota for intending to defend himself at the trial, but this is only part of V's reasons. She also knew that Kubota deserved killing. If we want the right result for the wrong reasons we need to deny V that knowledge. Maybe Kubota was not tied up and V had no way to determine guilt. Now he would still be killing a guilty man, but only for relatively trivial reasons.

[hamishspence]

"Because He Deserves It" is the traditional reason given by anyone doing a Vigilante Execution.

Problem is, its not necessarily a Good reason- as Hinjo pointed out "You don't get to kill people because they happen to have done something wrong" Batman Begins shows us the hero coming very close to this- but doesn't do it, and has an Epiphany that it might be the wrong thing to do.

"To Prevent Future Crimes" is a slightly better reason- but generally only works when there is very strong evidence of a Corrupt System.

[Kaytara]

I just did.
Touché. But I never said you didn't, just that you can't. In my own humble opinion, naturally.


Not much, if at all. We have our own eyes and Elan's acknowledgment that Kubota deserved what he got. He was allowed to live on sufferance and when he threatened to remain a major pest...
Whether V's action was moral has been discussed to death. The fact that the forumites haven't been able to reach a consensus might be considered proof enough that your "Not much, if at all" assessment of it is not applicable.
As I have often argued, Kubota getting what he deserved was not what pushed V to kill him in the first place, it's how he justified it afterwards, when Elan brought it up. And in any case, being justified does not equal being moral or good. So that act can easily be seen as being for the "wrong" reasons, where "wrong" means immoral or amoral.



"Wrong reasons" are reasons wildly different, often opposed, to the action. They are not merely unusual reasons. They are bad reasons [at least in the view of the speaker].

That's what I meant, as well. Perhaps "completely unrelated to arcane power" was not the best choice of words. I did mean that they would seem opposed or otherwise not suitable for getting arcane power rather than just completely random.
As for "in the view of the speaker"... I don't know, does anyone really do anything if they only have bad reasons for it? Usually they have at least one that they, themselves, consider to be a good one. To me, the "wrong" part implies an assessment from the outside.

[Covenantwgw]

My opinion is that the 4 words will be: I accept your proposal. I further predict the 4 words will be spoken to the little red imp, or his boss.

[waffletaco]

"Sure, I'll have it."

[Kaytara]

Something occurred to me during a re-read. In 478, Vaarsuvius says "Did you not listen? My LAST spell! I have no magic left with which to fight! My supposed 'ultimate arcane power' has vacated my body, leaving me as powerless as these evacuees!"

This is probably too vague to come even close, but since we're considering other far-fetched possibilities, why not?
Maybe the whole thing is symbolic. The beginning of V's obsession arc is marked by his guilt and self-loathing over having run out of spells during the battle. He's 'lost' his ultimate arcane power. Rather than magic in a literal sense, this power could be referring to his confidence and faith in himself.
Thus, when he finally gets it by saying the four words, he'll be regaining that power and confidence.
'Complete and total ultimate arcane power' could be simply the wisdom of knowing himself, his abilities and limitations, and how to use them wisely.

I don't need to be told that it sounds silly, but I could actually see it happening. Picture V learning a lesson in all the things he needs a lesson in. An epiphany on the value of humility and friendship is followed by a massive arcane ass-kicking on a scale not seen before. Some time later, V finds that his prophecy was already fulfilled by learning that lesson. Vaarsuvius, having been psyched up for what had seemed like a guarantee of becoming the most powerful mage in the world, might have been disappointed but, having learned that magical power isn't so important, anyway, is just happy that things turned out alright.

Naaah. XD

[Optimystik]

"Ultimate Arcane Power, please."

Followed by an order of fries, a milkshake and doom sauce.

[Ozymandias9]

Was talking about this with a friend that I recently got to start reading the comic. (I really should post here more often so that I can remember my forum login(s)...)

I agree that the words will be obvious in context. However I think that we can glean more from the prophesy if we try, if not necessarily about what the 4 words are.

Known from the prophesy:
1) V gets ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER!
2) The words are said to a "being"
3) The words are said to the right person at the right time.


Possible implications (not necessarily internally consistent):
1) Given what we know about Xykon's goals for the Snarl, it would seem a suitable option for a form to this power. My guess is that V ends up attempting the same thing that Xykon is attempting.

2) The use of the word "being" instead of "person" can be taken to indicate either:

a intent of not excluding certain characters from our speculation, or
a limitation on the prophesy to those characters that are not properly referred to as "person"s.

I find the later more convincing. Thus, I believe that the character that V will speak to is one of the following:

Xykon
The Creature in the Darkness
The Snarl
The Imp
Sabine



3) The right words to the right being indicates that the words being said are fitting for the person she's speaking to. She's not offering aid to a villain nor malice to a hero. This suggests three scenarios to me:

V is stopping a villain who is trying achieve ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER! because she wants it for herself
V is offering solace or apologies to a hero that she owes such emotion to, but is doing so in the context of either not aiding them in peril or actively preventing them from carrying out a heroic action that would interfere with her achieving ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER!
V is offering aid to someone she ought to have aided before, but merely a a direct method to ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER! (the timing on this one would seem the hardest to pull off).

[Lerky]

I'm still curious why people insist making V's 4 words into something funny, we've heard all the jokes and now we're sick of them and we want answers. Anyway shall we *secret disentergate* move on?:smalltongue:

I still think that the wrong person will be: a demon or devil, chances are Qarr, the wrong reasons: V's no longer doing it to save Haley but to perserve his/her own self image...or dare I say elf image? The right time: When the Colister spell wears off, allowing V to finaly make contact. And lasty, the four words: Show me Haley Starshine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html). These 4 words are what wil trigger the spell and finally show how powerful V has become.

[The Blackbird]

I somehow haven't heard THAT much debate on V's four words, probably because I didn't join the forums until after V left the group. I, however, am of the opinion that the 4 words are
Disintegrate. Gust of wind.
(Also, I'm taking a guess as to how the spoiler tags work, since I can't seem to find them in the rich text editor)

I'm sure there's been all kinds of debate on this one already, but the way I see it, the words were said for all the wrong reasons (as V explained in the following comic), and the situation that arose from it ultimately led him to leave the group, which led him to meet up with Qarr, who probably has some friends with some pretty hardcore arcane power. He would not have left the group if he had not said those particular words to the right person (and I don't care if casting a spell doesn't count as saying them "to" someone).

I just wanna have it on the record that I called this one in case it actually works out. I've always wanted to be able to do that O.o

You sir are awesome, I have a thread stating the exact same thing! Have a smile:smallbiggrin:

[Ozymandias9]

I still think that the wrong person will be:

It's not the wrong person, it's the right person. Only the reasons are wrong.

[SnailMan]

In light of the last comic, I'd say: "Forces of Darkness Disintegrate" :-D

[Kaytara]

If we're going there, it may be worth considering that V has cast Disintegrate a grand total of four times... XD

[CarpeGuitarrem]

If we're going there, it may be worth considering that V has cast Disintegrate a grand total of four times... XD
That was totally my first thought upon reading this strip. And when the last line came: "Say 'Disintegrate' one more time."

[BillyJimBoBob]

Yes, I'm making a prediction about the four words Vaarsuvius will speak to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons, and thereby achieve ultimate arcane power:

They'll be obvious.

When Vaarsuvius finally speaks the words, everyone (except the "Belkar is Chaotic Neutral" people) will know those were the words. There will be no, "I think those were the words, now where's the power?" It will be no more open to doubt than it was that Miko had Fallen when she Fell. Conversely, if you find yourself going, "I think those were the words--I can't prove it, but it was four words! Four! And Vaarsuvius said them!"--no, those were not the words.
No, no. There will obviously be much time between the speaking of the 4 words and the power being gained. Because the 4 words are obviously "Disintegrate. Gust of wind." And obviously V has not yet gained the power yet, so this proves that this is the case.

Belkar is obviously Chaotic Neutral. Because he had an epiphany while in the daze of the curse placed upon him, and decided to "play the game", which obviously means "don't be evil." This is proven by the fact that he helped the PoL overcome a personal failing and to safely skip town, and also that he went to rescue the girls, and that he called for peace when killing Bozzok would have been both easy and gained him some EXP. Oh, and he brought Mr. Scruffy a mackerel. All of these are obviously Good acts, bringing his previous CE alignment to CN.

Sheesh, some of y'all really come up with some wild theories, when the truth is so apparent and obvious right there in the story if you'd just read it...

:smallwink:

[keldorn]

This may have been said elsewhere in the archive, but think of who has said that the reasons were wrong. For example,
What could be more wrong to a follower of Tiamat that wanting power to defeat a coloured dragon?
Not that I think it likely to be the conditions in question.

[magic9mushroom]

This may have been said elsewhere in the archive, but think of who has said that the reasons were wrong. For example,
What could be more wrong to a follower of Tiamat that wanting power to defeat a coloured dragon?
Not that I think it likely to be the conditions in question.

Ooh. Nice.

[NephandiMan]

A thoughtful and detailed possibility.

Out of the serious (if admittedly far-fetched) suggestions for V's four words, this may be my favorite so far. It would make for an emotionally satisfying end to one of the comic's most hotly-debated mysteries, and it would be a nice bit of character development for V as well. I like this theory well enough that I feel obligated to point out some of the weaknesses, that you might be able to strengthen it.

The first, and most obvious, is that it is not clear how saying four words to anyone would give V his confidence back. The only way I can see this working is if he says them to himself, in the form of a pep talk. "You can do this," "Get your act together," "Self-doubt is for others" - that sort of thing. Even so, however, it's still quite a stretch.

Second, this suggestion turns upon a linguistic ambiguity, although to a lesser extent than some of the others. And as we learned in the case of Belkar, the Oracle doesn't seem to use that kind of deception in his answers. On the contrary, his predictions are apt to be more literal than one might wish, not less ("Where is Xykon?" "In his castle.")

Finally, it would be hard to reconcile such a change in V with his earlier character. Even before his obsession with finding Haley drove him to criminal extremes, he was, shall we say, not overly concerned with the feelings or lives of others, even making a veiled threat to disintegrate his own teammates before the comic had even reached a hundred strips. Such a growth in his character would probably come, if at all, only near the very end of the comic, which seems still to be some distance off.

That said, I'd like to make a prediction of my own. The most recent developments in the battle with the black dragon have made it clear that V, despite his best efforts, remains anything but a paragon of arcane power. As such, if anyone still believes that "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind" were the words in question, they must now admit to being wrong. The four words have yet to be spoken, and I have a hunch that we have not yet even seen the being in question. Qarr may be able to make deals, but I hardly think he himself could bestow ultimate arcane power. Therefore, I believe that Qarr will call upon some other devil, and, just as the dragon has V on the cusp of death, everyone's favorite arrogant wizard will gasp out:

"Please...save my life..."

He would still be learning a lesson in humility, but in a very different way from that proposed by Kaytara. And it would be interesting to see the psychological effects of knowing that he made a deal with a devil (or some such), not through his own volition, but through the most extreme duress.

[Malgrim]

I still think it's "Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit" :smallwink:

[RMS Oceanic]

He will find a mysterious spell scroll, and use it out of curiosity...

"Lemonparty. Tubgirl. Meatspin. Goatse!"

Needless to say, vulgarity ensues.

[Kaytara]

I like this theory well enough that I feel obligated to point out some of the weaknesses, that you might be able to strengthen it.
Then I shall try. :smallbiggrin:


The first, and most obvious, is that it is not clear how saying four words to anyone would give V his confidence back. The only way I can see this working is if he says them to himself, in the form of a pep talk. "You can do this," "Get your act together," "Self-doubt is for others" - that sort of thing. Even so, however, it's still quite a stretch.

Perhaps, but there are ways around it other than simple pep talk. The prophecy doesn't specify the time interval between saying the words and acquiring the power. I could see Vaarsuvius saying four words in an act of defiance to some powerful entity, four words that mark an important milestone in V's character growth. V defies the entity, successfully overcomes whatever obstacles that causes, and thus gets his confidence back.
Alternately, V's four words are an admission rather then defiance ("I need your help", your own suggestion is valid too), an admission that perhaps impresses or convinces some person to help him, which brings about events that V ends up feeling good about, thus getting his confidence back.
Either way, the four words would be of critical importance, as things wouldn't have turned out the same way without V having said them.


Second, this suggestion turns upon a linguistic ambiguity, although to a lesser extent than some of the others. And as we learned in the case of Belkar, the Oracle doesn't seem to use that kind of deception in his answers. On the contrary, his predictions are apt to be more literal than one might wish, not less ("Where is Xykon?" "In his castle.")
True, but as you said yourself, this would hardly make V's prophecy the odd one out. Many of the Oracle's prophecies are open to interpretation. The most obvious would be "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth", which would actually be completely inapplicable if taken literally, as we're prone to doing with his prophecies. Likewise, Elan's "happy ending" is also vague. For one thing, a happy ending like Elan imagines it would probably be something like what the MitD came up with - that everyone should live happily ever after. Elan's not malicious. If he had his way, all the villains would be redeemed and all the heroes rewarded. By this definition, if the story ends badly for some heroes, it would be bittersweet rather than happy.
So when the Oracle says "Yes - for you at least" to Elan, he's already using a different interpretation than the one in the question.

In any case, you say "a linguistic ambiguity" as if it's just a loophole in an otherwise stable structure, but that's not the case. We have no default unambiguous definition of the word "power". There's all sorts of power - physical, mental, spiritual, political, financial etc. In this case, the default assumption seems to be "many awesome spells" because that's what Vaarsuvius wants to have. If we're just analyzing the sentence, though, (or even if we just assume that, as with Elan, the Oracle meant something else by "power" than V did) that interpretation isn't automatically more valid than power in the sense of courage and confidence which also just happens to be extremely beneficial for his spellcasting prowess, thus fulfilling the "arcane" part of the requirement.


Finally, it would be hard to reconcile such a change in V with his earlier character. Even before his obsession with finding Haley drove him to criminal extremes, he was, shall we say, not overly concerned with the feelings or lives of others, even making a veiled threat to disintegrate his own teammates before the comic had even reached a hundred strips. Such a growth in his character would probably come, if at all, only near the very end of the comic, which seems still to be some distance off.
True - I don't think a scenario like the one I described could happen any sooner than the end of the comic, either. Vaarsuvius still has a long way to go before experiencing such major changes, but it's not implausible.


That said, I'd like to make a prediction of my own. ... Therefore, I believe that Qarr will call upon some other devil, and, just as the dragon has V on the cusp of death, everyone's favorite arrogant wizard will gasp out:

"Please...save my life..."

He would still be learning a lesson in humility, but in a very different way from that proposed by Kaytara. And it would be interesting to see the psychological effects of knowing that he made a deal with a devil (or some such), not through his own volition, but through the most extreme duress.

While I agree that the nature of the four words may easily be something like that, you did not specify the interpretation of the term "complete and total ultimate arcane power" your theory uses. If we assume that the power is strength brought about by learning a lesson in humility, as in my theory, then that seems unlikely at this time. Vaarsuvius has been greatly humbled during this battle but I have trouble imagining how he'd be able to emerge emotionally stronger from it.
And if we assume the power is of a more flashy, zappy variety, then we have to assume a longer interval between the four words and the power.
An explanation I would dig is Vaarsuvius somehow submitting to the dragon and through their association (whatever it would end up being) learning important arcane secrets that the dragon was unable to recognize and/or use herself. Thus, V will have acquired power by speaking the right four words, but we're not troubled by the question of why an ancient black dragon would voluntarily give away that kind of power.

[Yendor]

"You were all wrong!"

[Optimystik]

He will find a mysterious spell scroll, and use it out of curiosity...

"Lemonparty. Tubgirl. Meatspin. Goatse!"

Needless to say, vulgarity ensues.

All the Fortitude saves in the world could not spare the user of that scroll :smalleek:

[MorhgorRB]

"Belkar is... Chaotic Good?"


And from the resulting reality implosion, Belkar will be destroyed, and V will get bitten by an intradimesnional Phase Spider, and gain amazing powers.

:smalltongue:

*hums* Spiderelf, spiderelf, does whatever a spider wizard does. Does he swing from a web? No he doesn't, he can fly. Look out, here comes a disentigrate.

Alternatively :


"I'll have a cappicino." (Spelling. >.> )

[Finwe]

All the Fortitude saves in the world could not spare the user of that scroll :smalleek:

Reflex save to close your eyes!

[Finwe]

Out of the serious (if admittedly far-fetched) suggestions for V's four words, this may be my favorite so far. It would make for an emotionally satisfying end to one of the comic's most hotly-debated mysteries, and it would be a nice bit of character development for V as well. I like this theory well enough that I feel obligated to point out some of the weaknesses, that you might be able to strengthen it.

The first, and most obvious, is that it is not clear how saying four words to anyone would give V his confidence back. The only way I can see this working is if he says them to himself, in the form of a pep talk. "You can do this," "Get your act together," "Self-doubt is for others" - that sort of thing. Even so, however, it's still quite a stretch.

Second, this suggestion turns upon a linguistic ambiguity, although to a lesser extent than some of the others. And as we learned in the case of Belkar, the Oracle doesn't seem to use that kind of deception in his answers. On the contrary, his predictions are apt to be more literal than one might wish, not less ("Where is Xykon?" "In his castle.")

Finally, it would be hard to reconcile such a change in V with his earlier character. Even before his obsession with finding Haley drove him to criminal extremes, he was, shall we say, not overly concerned with the feelings or lives of others, even making a veiled threat to disintegrate his own teammates before the comic had even reached a hundred strips. Such a growth in his character would probably come, if at all, only near the very end of the comic, which seems still to be some distance off.

That said, I'd like to make a prediction of my own. The most recent developments in the battle with the black dragon have made it clear that V, despite his best efforts, remains anything but a paragon of arcane power. As such, if anyone still believes that "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind" were the words in question, they must now admit to being wrong. The four words have yet to be spoken, and I have a hunch that we have not yet even seen the being in question. Qarr may be able to make deals, but I hardly think he himself could bestow ultimate arcane power. Therefore, I believe that Qarr will call upon some other devil, and, just as the dragon has V on the cusp of death, everyone's favorite arrogant wizard will gasp out:

"Please...save my life..."

He would still be learning a lesson in humility, but in a very different way from that proposed by Kaytara. And it would be interesting to see the psychological effects of knowing that he made a deal with a devil (or some such), not through his own volition, but through the most extreme duress.


I am no fledgling aristocrat, ready to risk domination for fleeting dominance on this mortal coil

Does that sound like the words of someone willing to sacrifice their immortal soul in order to live a few meager centuries longer?

[Mr. Pin]

I believe that none of us will know the words until she says them. Then we will, absolutely and without doubt. However, an option that no-one has yet considered is that the four words will be the actual somatic components of some cataclysmically powerful epic spell, having no meaning outside their purpose as arcane mumbo-jumbo. This seems unlikely, but possible, and does not contrast with the right time, place, and person, wrong reason thing.

On the subject of what this ultimate arcane power is: perhaps she will become a god, like Vecna did? he, too, was once a mighty wizard, and all Vaarsuvius needs for that is to have Roy chop off one of her eyes and hands.

[Kaihaku]

However, an option that no-one has yet considered is that the four words will be the actual somatic components of some cataclysmically powerful epic spell, having no meaning outside their purpose as arcane mumbo-jumbo. This seems unlikely, but possible, and does not contrast with the right time, place, and person, wrong reason thing.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that I have seen that theory before.