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View Full Version : Turning the Assassin into a base class. (3.5)



Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 07:05 AM
I was thinking about how Assassins were a base class in the 1st Edition, and I was just thinking about how they could be modified into one for 3.5 D&D. Apaer from giving them Ranger spell progression, full BAB, a d8 Hit Dice and 6 skill points/level, what else would you guys pick for them? I thought they should be better in combat then Rogues while having less class features (I was also thinking of giving them slower Sneak Attack progression).

Gardakan
2008-12-04, 07:15 AM
If you don't give the death attack maybe you could think to add this class. But with the death attack the assassin is too obvious...

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 07:22 AM
Do you think giving it full Sneak Attack while granting Death Attack with some modifications later on would work? I was just thinking that they could get Tracking at level 4.

Gardakan
2008-12-04, 07:28 AM
Do you think giving it full Sneak Attack while granting Death Attack with some modifications later on would work? I was just thinking that they could get Tracking at level 4.


Take the rogue and modify it.

Give the death attack at level 10 and send out the bonus things at level 10,13,16,19.

Give Sneak Attack maximum +1d6/2 levels

Cut in the little things. 6 Skills points per level, 6d hp per level, Med BAB... You should have something correctly playable.

But me if i was you i would do that. Rogue 5/ Assassin 10...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-04, 07:32 AM
For an Assassin base class I'd start with Rogue, reduce the skill points to 4 or 6 +Int per level, and switch the class skills to those of the Assassin prestige class. Give it Int-based Hexblade spellcasting but use the Assassin PrC spell list, and make it grant Poison Use at level 3 (the same level Ninja gets it). Add Death Attack to the Special Abilities that it can pick in the higher levels, adding only half the class level to the DC for a 20-level class, instead of adding the full class level to the DC for a 10-level class.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 07:32 AM
I wanted it to be more like a Ranger as far as fighting went to be honest (I'm guessing full BAB, a d8 HD and full SA may not be that bad considering the Fighter variant which uses SA in place of feats).

That would work as well. Apart from Evasion and Improved Evasion, I'm not sure which other abilities I could keep without overpowering it.

Mephit
2008-12-04, 07:36 AM
Why give them Full BAB? They're rogues with some fancy moves, but I wouldn't say they have the same function as a Barbarian or a Fighter in battle.

Give them 3/4's BAB, and a d6 HD to start with. It'll make them look a lot like rogues, yeah, but heck, they're supposed to stay in the shadows and strike unseen, no? Make sure they don't go charging everything with their daggers of death.
EDIT: You semi-ninjaed me there. Problem is, full BAB classes are hard to balance. You'll have to give them some dead levels to make up for that. In this case, I'd focus on Death Attack, and severely cut down SA dice. Give them some kind of armor bonus in Light Armor. Maybe something related to cover? (X bonus to AC when Y% cover) It makes sense for the class.

I'd give them a good Ref save and the same proficiencies as the PrC, but I'd try to differentiate them from rogues somewhat, so maybe change the class features a bit. (Giving them exactly the same features would've left a lot of levels, after all)

Give them a decent access to poison: poisons are WAY too expensive for the low DCs they give. Maybe some crafting ability that makes it cheaper, and some other free poison feats to up the DCs?

I'd cut down the SA dice, since they're no longer some PrC you take as a rogue.
Maybe, instead of SA, give them sudden strike like ninjas? Assassins taking advantage of a flanked person makes some sense, but if you're going for a 'death unseen' sort of vibe, it might be better to just give the class SS.

You might also want to pimp their spell list a bit, and homebrew some Death Attack feats. :smallamused:

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 08:43 AM
My logic behind giving them full BAB is that, while they are meant to be stealth orientated, I thought it made sense for a class which focussed on killing people to be able to fight as well as a Ranger or a Fighter. Regarding class features, this is what I had in mind so far:

1: Trapfinding.
3: Poison Use.
4: Tracking using Search rather then Survival.
5: Evasion.
10: Death Attack.
12: Improved Evasion.

(I wanted to cut class features down a lot to make up for the increased HD and BAB.)

metagaia
2008-12-04, 08:56 AM
My logic behind giving them full BAB is that, while they are meant to be stealth orientated, I thought it made sense for a class which focussed on killing people to be able to fight as well as a Ranger or a Fighter. Regarding class features, this is what I had in mind so far:

1: Trapfinding.
3: Poison Use.
4: Tracking using Search rather then Survival.
5: Evasion.
10: Death Attack.
12: Improved Evasion.

(I wanted to cut class features down a lot to make up for the increased HD and BAB.)

I can't help feeling this is too far in the other direction. With a d8 hit die, I would much prefer to play a ranger before level 10. Also, once you gain the death attack, the assassin will essentially stop fighting and just be using death attacks (DC 30+ at level 20 seems excessive also).

Give poison use at level 1 since it's a signature assassin ability that doesn't really make sense as a 'master with experiance' ability. I would in put Weapon Finesse in place of the level 3 ability since assassins shouldn't be wielding greatswords.

Improved evasion is little use to someone with a good reflex save, so I'd replace that with Hide in plain sight (since he cannot use spells to make himself invisible)

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 09:04 AM
I was thinking of changing Death Attack so that it can only be used a certain amount of times/day (possibly 2 to start with and increading to 3 at level 15 then to 4 at level 20) with no observation time being needed. I was planning on limiting their weapons to the same ones which Rogues could use as well to be honest.

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-04, 09:05 AM
Forgive me if say something obvious/ovepowered/whatelse but.. if you bring him the death attack very late, keep the spells (advancing them as the Hexblad ones), and add some features of the Shadowdancer prestige class in DMG?

Anyway, IMHO death attack with zero time is too much.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 09:09 AM
Even if it can only be used 2-4 times/day? I'll check the Shadow Dancer out (I'll probably add those later on due to most of the class features being front-loaded at the minute).

metagaia
2008-12-04, 09:13 AM
I was thinking of changing Death Attack so that it can only be used a certain amount of times/day (possibly 2 to start with and increading to 3 at level 15 then to 4 at level 20) with no observation time being needed. I was planning on limiting their weapons to the same ones which Rogues could use as well to be honest.

If you *are* going to do a death attack with zero time (a bad idea, since it makes the class underpowered up to level 10, then overpowered once it reaches it) then make it so death attack can only be done when a normal sneak attack could have been done (the 1/day limit means that it has to have a good save to be exciting (DC 20 at least) or they will save and feel cheated.)

Well, if not weapon finesse, then at least something like the swashbickler ability to add Int damage to your attack at level 3. It sounds harsh, but your class looks really dull to play before level 10.

Telonius
2008-12-04, 09:13 AM
I'd modify Death Attack to allow it to work with Ranged attacks within 30'.

I homebrewed up some poison feats and rules changes to poisoning awhile back - link here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89314&highlight=Supreme+Poisoner). They might be of some use to an Assassin base class.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 09:16 AM
Thanks for the DA advice (I forgot about using it in place of SA). I'll look at those feats in a munute. Do you think these additions would work well?:

4: Uncanny Dodge.
8: Shadow Jump 20'.
12: Slippery Mind in place of Improved Evasion.
14 Improved Uncanny Dodge.
17: Shadow Jump 40'.

metagaia
2008-12-04, 09:21 AM
That does look better to me. I like the shadow jump ability, very flavourful for the assassin. Are you going to require the assassin to be nongood?

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 09:24 AM
I'm not bothering with that rule (my logic is that it never made sense due to how not all assasins are lekely to murder indiscriminately for the money). I was thinking of them having the same SA progression as the Psionic Rogue as well: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b .

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-04, 09:24 AM
That does look better to me. I like the shadow jump ability, very flavourful for the assassin. Are you going to require the assassin to be nongood?My recommendation would be either no alignment requirements or "any except LG". The alignment requirements are almost always an impediment to play without helping the game in any way.

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-04, 09:27 AM
PMed you my version.

The first thing that you need to do when making a base class is to decide on the power level you want it on par with. Something balanced with ToB or Factotum can get away with a lot more than something balanced with a Monk.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 09:32 AM
Thanks for PMing me that, Emperor.:smallsmile: The maneuvers fit well, but I wanted to avoid it being too complicated (in addition to wanting it to be about as powerful as a Rogue, I wanted to make it for a friend to use in what will be their first campaign once I've taught them how to play D&D).

metagaia
2008-12-04, 09:36 AM
Same SA progression as a psychic rogue? Then it's not really the same power level as a rogue :smalleek:

That being said, if it's for a newish player, then you can take for granted his build grafted onto the class will be slightly sub-optimal, so it's not as big a concern if it's over-powered.

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-04, 09:36 AM
About the aligment issue.. emember that in the Wizard's Archives ther is a non-chaotic or lawful version of the assassin called Avenger. Needs sorta authorization" by a political power... hope can be useful.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 09:38 AM
I heard about that a while back thanks. I think it was meant to be an pril Fools joke. I'm drawing up a table for my version now, metagaia. Once it's done, I'll see what everyone thinks of the power level (I went for full BEB and a d8 HD in the end).

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-04, 09:38 AM
Thanks for PMing me that, Emperor.:smallsmile: The maneuvers fit well, but I wanted to avoid it being too complicated (in addition to wanting it to be about as powerful as a Rogue, I wanted to make it for a friend to use in what will be their first campaign once I've taught them how to play D&D).

Maneuvers are less complicated than spells. And get them into ToB early, psionics as well. :smallwink:

DrizztFan24
2008-12-04, 09:39 AM
Amen to the cheated thing. I have played an assassin with maxed INT and the most expensive headband I could buy...everything still made the save. I thought that the class needed a better progression, like increasing DC by increasing ranks in Heal or soemthing like that. Afterall, if you work alone you had better know how to stay alive alone, and you have a much better knowledge of anatomy.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-04, 09:44 AM
Amen to the cheated thing. I have played an assassin with maxed INT and the most expensive headband I could buy...everything still made the save. I thought that the class needed a better progression, like increasing DC by increasing ranks in Heal or soemthing like that. Afterall, if you work alone you had better know how to stay alive alone, and you have a much better knowledge of anatomy.The problems with the original death attack are many. 18 seconds means it will only happen on the first round of combat, and then only with extensive preparation. Assassin's can't afford to go SAD the same way a Wizard can, so the save will never be high. They lack any sort of save-booster ability like Spell Focus. It only targets one save, and that's the on-average highest save in the game. It only works on SA-able enemies. Not a good ability.

metagaia
2008-12-04, 09:45 AM
Maneuvers are less complicated than spells. And get them into ToB early, psionics as well. :smallwink:

oh gods...yet another potential D&D player forever corrupted...

Sorry tempest, you're right I shouldn't judge before seeing the whole thing, I just don't like classes on ToB level power :smallsigh: it makes DMing a lot harder from my experiance.

Like the heal thing, you could easily make it a skill synergy (5 ranks = +2 DC) if the DC turns out to be too low.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 09:46 AM
I honestly found ToB to be more complicated then Vancian casting to be honest. I'll introduce my friend (as well as my sister and mother, who I'm also reaching) to Psionics and ToB a bit later, though (I was never much of a Psionics fan personally). This is the table so far. I'll use a separate one for spells.

EDIT: It will take me an age to sort this out.

Ironically, I prefer players to have overpowered characters because it reduces the chances of me killing them with an overpowered encounter.:smalltongue: (I'm new to DMing.)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-04, 09:48 AM
Sorry tempest, you're right I shouldn't judge before seeing the whole thing, I just don't like classes on ToB level power :smallsigh: it makes DMing a lot harder from my experiance.Do you at least ban casters, then? ToB is often considered similar to the Sorc in terms of power level.

metagaia
2008-12-04, 09:54 AM
Do you at least ban casters, then? ToB is often considered similar to the Sorc in terms of power level.

depends really. If I DMing an experianced lot, then any non-core spells (Spell compendium etc) need my personal approval, and I generally try to make encounters more fighter friendly (low number of enemies with high saves etc)

Part of it admittidly is personal, I only have so much room behind a DM screen to bring out the ToB again to make sure I am not being munchkined.

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-04, 10:10 AM
People does not have always the same problem with ToB. In my specific campaigns, I allow full spellcasting and almos all spells, but spellcasters have to face perils like wild or dead magic, taint, node problems, world-consuming arcane magic and so on. This keeps both magic special and not overpowered.

My problems with tome of battle are about coherency. If all maneuvers would be supernatural abilities, I'll almost be fine with them. But in a world where healing is (Sop) or (Sp), a crusader does not fit well. In a world where to raise damage you have to powerattack, and combat maneuvers are suited around it (negating power attack, ready an action to disarm, and so on), a strike "8d6 'cuz I'm supercool" does not fit well. And so on.

Further, my melee players generally say that ToB is less satisfying because it's "easy mode" :smallwink:

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 10:11 AM
Assassin. Starting age: Simple.
HD:d8
Proficiencies: All simple weapons and light armour, and rapiers, longswords, shortswords and shortbows.

Class skills: (6+Int/level): Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).


Level. BAB Fort Refl Will Special
1st +1 +0 +2 +0 Sneak attack +1d6 Trapfinding
2nd +2 +0 +3 +0
3rd +3 +1 +3 +1 Poison Use
4th +4 +1 +4 +1 Sneak attack +2d6, Tracking
5th +5 +1 +4 +1 Evasion, Uncanny Dodge
6th +6/+1 +2 +5 +2 --
7th +7/+2 +2 +5 +2 Sneak attack +3d6 8th +8/+3 +2 +6 +2 Shadow Jump 20’
9th +9/+4 +3 +6 +3
10th +10/+5 +3 +7 +3 Sneak attack +4d6 Death Attack 2/day
11th +11/+6/+1 +3 +7 +3
12th +12/+7/+2 +4 +8 +4 Slippery Mind
13th +13/+8/+3 +4 +8 +4 Sneak attack +5d6
14th +14/+9/+4 +4 +9 +4 Improved Uncanny Dodge
15th +15/+10/+5 +5 +9 +5 Death Attack 3/day
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +5 +10 +5 Sneak attack +6d6 Shadow Jump 40’
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Sneak attack +7d6
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Death Attack 4/day.


Spellcasting. See http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ranger (spells are Int based, and your spell list can be changed everyday if you want to use different spells). See http://www.devinweb.com/assassinspells.htm for full list.

Sneak Attack: extra damage when attacking flat-footed or flanked opponants when using melee attacks or ranged attacks from 30' or less.

Trapfinding: find traps using Search.

Poison Use: apply poison without poisining yourself by accident.

Tracking: as Ranger skill, uses Search.

Evasion: If exposed to any effect that normally allows her to attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage, she takes no damage with a successful saving throw. The evasion ability can only be used if wearing light armor or no armor.

Uncanny Dodge: retains Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. (She still loses any Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.)

Shadow Jump: gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some shadow. Can jump up to a total of 20 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 20 feet or two jumps of 10 feet each.

Death Attack: can be used in place of a Sneak Attack. Target must pass a Fortitude save DC of 10+Int+1/2 your level rounded up to avoid dying. If they pass the save, they take normal SA damage.

Slippery Mind: if you fail a save vs. a mind-affecting spell or ability, you can reroll again 1 round later.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: can no longer be flanked. This defense denies rogues the ability to use flank attacks to sneak attack. The exception to this defense is that a rogue at least four levels higher than the shadowdancer can flank her (and thus sneak attack her).



How does this look?

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-04, 10:12 AM
(sorry spam)

Great. I like it. Raise SA to 10d6? unbalanced toward rogue?

Edited again: sorry, misreading about BA.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 10:16 AM
I was thinking that SA progression would work due to it having better fighting skills. I'm trying Crusader in a PBP game, and he's my first ToB character: http://mydndgame.com/?action=character-sheet&character=1165 . (I know what you mean about how most Maneuvers should be Supernatural or Spell-Like, though.)

Tequila Sunrise
2008-12-04, 10:20 AM
Assassin.
HD:d8
Proficiencies: All simple weapons and light armour, and rapiers, longswords, shortswords and shortbows.

Class skills: (6+Int/level):

Level. BAB Fort Refl Will Special
1st +1 +0 +2 +0 Sneak attack +1d6 Trapfinding
2nd +2 +0 +3 +0
3rd +3 +1 +3 +1 Poison Use
4th +4 +1 +4 +1 Sneak attack +2d6, Tracking
5th +5 +1 +4 +1 Evasion, Uncanny Dodge
6th +6/+1 +2 +5 +2 --
7th +7/+2 +2 +5 +2 Sneak attack +3d6 8th +8/+3 +2 +6 +2 Shadow Jump 20’
9th +9/+4 +3 +6 +3
10th +10/+5 +3 +7 +3 Sneak attack +4d6 Death Attack 2/day
11th +11/+6/+1 +3 +7 +3
12th +12/+7/+2 +4 +8 +4 Slippery Mind
13th +13/+8/+3 +4 +8 +4 Sneak attack +5d6
14th +14/+9/+4 +4 +9 +4 Improved Uncanny Dodge
15th +15/+10/+5 +5 +9 +5 Death Attack 3/day
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +5 +10 +5 Sneak attack +6d6 Shadow Jump 40’
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Sneak attack +7d6
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Death Attack 4/day.

How does this look?
I actually imagine an assassin would be worse in combat than a rogue, if anything. Just 'cause they'd depend on that one strike to bring down the opposition. But aside from that nitpick, your class looks pretty good. A little better than the rogue because of the good BAB, but not 'OMG why play a rogue ever again?!' better.

TS

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 10:25 AM
Thanks. :smallsmile: (I was thinking about a video game called Killer7 where most of the characters you play as are competent in combat if they can't kill any enemies with 1 shot.)

metagaia
2008-12-04, 10:31 AM
I actually imagine an assassin would be worse in combat than a rogue, if anything. Just 'cause they'd depend on that one strike to bring down the opposition. But aside from that nitpick, your class looks pretty good. A little better than the rogue because of the good BAB, but not 'OMG why play a rogue ever again?!' better.

TS

So for sacrificing 1-3d6 of of SA damage and 2sp/level you have:
Better BAB
Better hit die
Ranger powered spells
Shadow jump
Better weapon (longsword), and
no risk death attack?


I have to stand by what I said, this is a *lot* better than the rogue. I like all of it except the full BAB. It's probably not game breaking, but I see no reason to play the rogue over this.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 10:33 AM
They do also lack a lot of the special abilities which Rogues get. My logic behind changing Death Attack is that it's poor as it is, and spellcasters get access to save-or-die attacks much earlier in the game.

metagaia
2008-12-04, 10:39 AM
They do also lack a lot of the special abilities which Rogues get. My logic behind changing Death Attack is that it's poor as it is, and spellcasters get access to save-or-die attacks much earlier in the game.

The point is though is that there is a risk in using them. This isn't save or die, this is sneak attack or die.

Hmm, I guess you might be right about the rogue abilities, so resetting in to average BAB is a bit harsh, full BAB is a big improvement though.

JellyPooga
2008-12-04, 11:51 AM
I know it's a little late to have my say, but you're getting it anyway!

For Assassin to be a base class (as opposed to a PrC), I'm of the opinion that it would have to be significantly different to the Rogue, Ninja and other Stealth Classes. For example, the Ninja is a Monk/Rogue cross and the Scout is a Ranger/Rogue cross...what you appear to have created is a Rogue/Rogue...it has abilities that you would expect to have as a Single Class Rogue with a Prestige Class, where the Ninja and Scout would require Cross-Classing to gain similar abilities (Does that make sense? I tend to get too verbose when I'm trying to make a point).

Anyway, my suggestion for an Assassin class is this: Non-Combatant. It's all about the unseen kill, the subtle murder and traceless culprit. Class Features would focus on stealth, disguise, planning and surprise. This is just off the top of my head, but something not too dissimilar to the following...

Class: Assassin
HD: d6
B.A.B: 1/2 level (As Wizard)
Fort: Poor
Ref: Good
Will: Good
Skill Points/Level: 8+Int mod (x4 for 1st lvl)
Class Skills: As Rogue (more or less...perhaps some minor changes, but I've not put that much thought into this!)

Class Features (in no particular order)

Assassinate (Ex.): Similar in execution (pun intended) to Death Attack (study target, DC to resist), but different in effect. Upgrades significantly as the class progresses;
- Initially melee only, then gain ability to do at 30ft, 60ft, etc.
- Initially does extra damage, then poison-like effects, then death-effect

Silent Death (Ex.): This feature greatly improves the chances of the Assassin being undetected. The mechanic I have in mind is something like alternating Skill bonuses with a special ability (e.g. Hide/Move Silent, HiPS, Bluff/Disguise, Undetectable Alignment, etc.)...I'm not sure though...you get the gist anyway.

Subtle Killer: Something along the lines of the Monks' Quivering Palm in as much as it allows you to delay the effect of an Assassinate attempt. Not very powerful, but it's in there for flavour more than anything.

Poisoner: Straight up bonuses to Poison DC and effect. Scales with level (note does not affect poison-like effect of Assassinate...only actual poisons)

Bonus Feat: Deft Strike. I don't care, any character that claims to be an Assassin (whether they're of the Class, PrC or whatever) has this feat, so it's going in this base Class. When you get it, I thought a littel earlier than it's normally available, but not too early.

Master Planner: Bonus to Assassinate DC's if you spend longer planning the demise of your target. Not sure of actual mechanic, it's just an idea. Perhaps something similar to the Mark ability of a Bloodhound (CompAdv).

Trapfinding: 'cos he wouldn't get very far without it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

What I have in mind is a character that initially is about stealth, sneaking past defences to kill the target and sneaking out again, but later on becomes far more subtle, killing people without them knowing about it whilst he laughs with them about last years hunting trip (which he incidentally didn't go on, but the victim thinks he did).

- Sneak Attack is a combat mechanic...so it doesn't fit.

- B.A.B is largely irrelevant; an Assassin trying to kill a prepared target is doing something wrong and after he gets Deft Strike he practically only ever needs to hit an AC of 10 (no armour + flat-footed = not a lot of defences left).

When I think of an Assassin, I don't think of the 'assassins' you see in the movies that are unsubtle killing machines, I picture the guy you don't know was ever there until you find the corpse and even then you don't know who it was...in short when I think of Assassins, I think of serial killers, not Jason Bourne (in killing style rather than morality).

Anyways...there it is in all its vague and hazy glory...if you're interested in any further developement to the ideas I got, just shout and I'll actually think about it for more than 10 minutes...if not, then no worries!

Cheers,

JP

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-04, 12:58 PM
That is an interresting idea, Jelly. The problem is that I'm not sure how practical that version would be in a normal game.

Ponce
2008-12-04, 01:25 PM
stuff

I agree with everything (especially the poison bit) excepting the 1/2 BAB. Should be 3/4 imo. I know its supposed to be a noncombatant, but he still has to make non-trivial attack rolls. Alternatively, they could gain a bonus to attack against unawares opponents (since being flat-footed is rarely enough, losing dex isn't often significant) and be able to reroll attacks on assassination attempts.

Subtle killer sounds very useful for interrogation or black mail. Should work well as long as he has the tools to keep hidden.

All this being said, assassin doesn't make for a good party member, unless the entire rest of the party is also very stealthy. It is definitely a loner sort of class. Giving up on sneak attack is the right move. Trying to compromise it into a sort of pseudo rogue makes the class sort of pointless. The assassin presented in the DMG and anything similar to it is pretty much still just a rogue. JellyPooga's is a much better representation. A+

JellyPooga
2008-12-05, 03:31 AM
I agree that the class as I present it isn't a good party member for pretty much the same reasons that the Ninja isn't also.

@Ponce_LeRue: Yeah, I thought that about the 1/2 BAB after writing that post...I'd prefer a bonus to hit when making Assassinate attempts rather than a higher BAB to be honest, but perhaps at higher levels Assassinate would become much easier, perhaps even possible in combat.

Thinking about it, Assassinate could perhaps scale something like Skirmish does, except instead of adding to your AC, it's a bonus to hit. For Example:

Lvl Damage Bonus/Attack Bonus
1 +1d6 / +0
3 +1d6 / +1
5 +2d6 / +1
7 +2d6 / +2
9 +3d6 / +2
etc.

Then add the Poison-Like effects and Death effects as additional Class Features, perhaps even make them work in a similar way to Ambush feats (i.e. sacrifice extra damage to do X effect). Obviously the table above is changeable; as presented it gives roughly the equivalent of a 3/4 BAB (if base BAB is 1/2 level) on Assassinate attacks + half Rogue sneak attack damage (and looks suspicioulsy like Skirmish...), but could be changed to a different die type (d8, d10 or even d4 for example), different amount of die, fixed damage bonus (a factor of Int or Dex, perhaps, or just a factor of level) and/or Full BAB equivalency (which would be +1 to hit every odd level). Of those, I'd personally go for a fixed damage bonus and probably stick with 3/4 BAB equivalency, but that's just me.

Having had a bit of a think about the Silent Death feature, I'm not really happy with skill bonuses...it's just a bit bland. What I've been thinking is possibly something along the lines of an ability (or abilities) that makes it increasingly harder for you to be detected by superhuman means...e.g. Darkvision, Magical Scrying, etc. Perhaps even having a capstone ability at level 20 of being able to become Invisible at will as an Ex. ability or something (it's not as powerful as it sounds, really, given that Pixies get Greater Invisibility at will and can be played at ECL: 5). Probably change the name of the ability series though...something like "Shadow Presence" or something...

Track or Urban Tracking as a bonus feat makes sense too.

Oh, one thing that I forgot to mention was Weapon Proficiencies...I was thinking a select list of mostly exotic weapons with low damage ranges (dagger, punch dagger, hand X-bow, blowgun, shuriken, etc.).

The other thing I forgot to mention that I was going to is an ability to bypass DR with Assassinate attempts...perhaps starting with magical and working up through Cold Iron and Silver to Adamantine, then Alignment and finally (possibly capstone) to DR/-. Perhaps call it "Target Weak Spot" or "Precision" or something.

Anyways, I'm starting to ramble now, so I'll shut up.

Person_Man
2008-12-05, 02:05 PM
Assassins get some great spells in the splat books, which are scaled for ECL 6-16. For example:

Assassin 2: Swift Invisibility (Spell Comp pg 125): Swift Action Invisibility for 1 round.

Assassin 2: Alter Self (SRD): Very easily abused.

Assassin 2: Brilliant Energy Arrow (Champions of Ruin pg 29): Swift Action, your next arrow has the Brilliant Energy property.

Assassin 3: Toxic Tongue (Comp Mage pg 120): Each round you can apply poison that deals 1d6 Con damage to a weapon as a Swift Action.

Assassin 4: Sniper's Eye (Comp Adventurer pg 156): You gain a bunch of different buffs, including the ability to make a Death Attack with a ranged weapon at up to 60 feet.

Assassin 4: Deathsight (Spell Comp pg 193): Standard Action, your next attack is a Death Attack. A Factotum 8/Assassin could thus Death Attack at the beginning of combat, and then Death Attack again during combat without a wait. I'm sure you could also find a way to Quicken this somehow.

So my suggestion is that any base class that has Assassin spells should have Paladin spell progression. This would keep the spells balanced, and negate the need to ban things, re-create the wheel, or add Hexblade spells or whatnot for 5th+ level spells.

Tequila Sunrise
2008-12-05, 02:18 PM
I have to stand by what I said, this is a *lot* better than the rogue. I like all of it except the full BAB. It's probably not game breaking, but I see no reason to play the rogue over this.
I don't fully agree with this argument, but I'm not going to argue against it. If it were me turning the assassin into a base class, well, I wouldn't. I'd make death attack a 1/day rogue special ability and make spell casting an alternate class feature. (I'd probably have it replace Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, IUD and a couple special abilities. Or possibly one SA die per spell level instead.)

TS

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-05, 02:24 PM
Ironically, the Pathfinder Assassin has a feature which stops people from realising who caused their victim's death called Quite Death. They also have a d8 HD.

mabriss lethe
2008-12-06, 12:12 AM
Hmmm. I'd probably start out using the spellthief as a basis for comparison.
Instead of the "steal spell" and related options, give them a series of save or suck/die abilites that trade in some portion of SA damage to power the effect. I remember that there are already some feats like that out in one of the books (phb2 maybe?) Maybe use those as benchmarks.