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Mephit
2008-12-04, 08:21 AM
So after presenting all the work on the Magic Missile Build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97421) to my friend, he reminded me about an other low-level spell that he considered awesome: Color Spray.

I told him that the spell, while being not too bad at low-levels, didn't quite scale as well for higher levels as Magic Missile did.
He went slightly berserk at that point (not to worry, he does that often: he's a bit enthusiastic sometimes) and proceeded to explain me with words, colors and gestures how awesome the spell is.
He's often one-shotted a BBEG with that spell at low-levels, and his gnome Illusionist with the Spell Focus feat and some other DC bumping strategies could take out anything CR appropriate with that spell - or so he claims.
I do remember getting the snot kicked out of my character after being stunned or knocked unconscious by the spell, though.

To summarise:
I was wondering (as he often ends up being right about these things, he's got a talent for optimising) if this is all correct? Is there any simple way to take beat Color Spray, other than just bumping your Will Save as high as possible, a monster with SR, or enough HD to resist it? (Which isn't that common at low levels, I think)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-04, 08:26 AM
Color Spray, along with Sleep, is indeed awesome at low levels. Both have limiting factors, but as SoL spells go, they're your only options. When you get to higher levels the need to be close to your enemy is a major issue, but it is indeed a good spell for knocking out enemies, until the save scales out of reach(though Heighten Spell gets around that).

kamikasei
2008-12-04, 08:30 AM
It's a fantastic low-level spell, but the HD limit means it doesn't scale much at all at higher levels. While you can keep pumping illusion DCs by various means, at higher levels you just have better things to do than stun an enemy for a round.

At higher levels, mind blank provides complete immunity although that's overkill and a half. It also won't work against unintelligent creatures, or blind ones (whether a blindfolded enemy using blindsense etc. can avoid it is debatable).

metagaia
2008-12-04, 08:30 AM
It's a mind effecting enchantment, so any undead, constructs or vermin are immune to it, so throw those at him to your hearts content.

IMO, it is a better spell for the first couple of levels than MM, but so it grease, and while grease doesn't scale, at least it doesn't actively get worse.

Sightless creatures are also unaffected, so things like derro and oozes also work. Colour spray is just too situational unless your campaign is humanoid based.

Epinephrine
2008-12-04, 09:14 AM
I seem to recall a feat that boosts the HD affected by HD limited enchantment spells by 3, I know that this extends Sleep up to 7 HD. If a similar feat exists for illusion, Color Spray could have decent utility for a few more levels, but it still wouldn't scale particularly well.

Mephit
2008-12-04, 09:47 AM
It's a mind effecting enchantment, so any undead, constructs or vermin are immune to it, so throw those at him to your hearts content.

Ah. This is what I was looking for.:smallbiggrin:
It's my turn to DM in 2 weeks, and he'll probably make another Illusionist to prove his point to me. Heh, ain't he going to be surprised?

I won't mess too much with him, but getting a character of his in the negatives every once in a while makes sure he doesn't start thinking he's the Minmax God. :smalltongue:

Starbuck_II
2008-12-04, 10:38 AM
To summarise:
I was wondering (as he often ends up being right about these things, he's got a talent for optimising) if this is all correct? Is there any simple way to take beat Color Spray, other than just bumping your Will Save as high as possible, a monster with SR, or enough HD to resist it? (Which isn't that common at low levels, I think)

You can infinite HD and Color Spray will still kick their pants.
Sleep has a HD Maximum.
Color Spray has a HD minimum for effects.

So you will always get stunned on fail if more than 5 HD.

Only true blocker is high Will save or Mindless trait (or similiar effects like Mindblank).
SR isn't that hard to bypass Core or not.

metagaia
2008-12-04, 10:41 AM
The fact you have to be within 15' of the the targets means nothing if they make their saves of course :smallwink:

Eldariel
2008-12-04, 10:51 AM
Color Spray is indeed one of the three level 1 spells that are actually awesome offensively (Grease is the only one you'll love to prepare all the way though). Magic Missile is a "fun" spell that has occasional application, but too low damage to actually prepare outside focused builds. For example, if a level 1 party faces down a band of 4 Ogres (CR 7 encounter), by far their best bet of victory is the Wizard Color Spraying the whole band. Since you have so few spells on low levels, you have to make sure that the ones you prepare are: A) Heavy Impact and B) Mass Effect, and Color Spray fits both bills nicely (compare knocking multiple creatures out to dealing 1d4+1 points of damage... Given enough Dex, you'll do quite well with a (Cross)bow in comparison to MM).

Keld Denar
2008-12-04, 11:00 AM
5 or more HD
The creature is stunned for 1 round.


Yea, I know a guy with a high level Gnome ScM. He takes Color Spray as all of his 1st level focus specialist spell slots because, hey, what else is he gonna do with them? They still have a DC of (11 +10int +2 GSF +1 racial) or 24, which is much higher than most fighter types can regularly make, even at about level 15. Stunned for 1 round means the creature drops anything it might have been holding (weapons) and can't take any actions. That means he's trading actions 1 for 1 with the bad guy, while his team curb stomps him to death. Plus, both my character and one of the other characters that are involved in said stomping are both immune to [Mind Affecting], so he just sprays it willy nilly over us.

Is it the strongest thing his character can do? Hell no. Is it still circumstantially a valid tactic even at high levels? Oh hell yeah! I mean, what else is he gonna fill those first level illusion slots with? Silent Image? Even with ScM shananananananananananagans, they would be 2nd level spells, but there aren't even many of those worth taking. Color Spray is a valid tactic.

Saph
2008-12-04, 11:25 AM
Color Spray is indeed one of the three level 1 spells that are actually awesome offensively (Grease is the only one you'll love to prepare all the way though). Magic Missile is a "fun" spell that has occasional application, but too low damage to actually prepare outside focused builds. For example, if a level 1 party faces down a band of 4 Ogres (CR 7 encounter), by far their best bet of victory is the Wizard Color Spraying the whole band.

How on earth is a single 15-foot cone going to hit four 10' by 10' creatures with natural reach? Whichever ones you miss or fail to affect with the first spell are going to kill you.

- Saph

Leewei
2008-12-04, 02:21 PM
If the four all shared the same inner corner, they could all be hit by the cone. At least, I think you just need to affect one 5X5 square for the creature to be hit by the spell. Enlarge Spell would certainly help here.

valadil
2008-12-04, 03:03 PM
A while back I played a sorc with the fast metamagic option from PHB2. Sculpted color spray and grease utterly broke the game at levels 4 and 5. Keep in mind that sculpt can create four 10 foot cubes, which increases the size of both spells dramatically. I actually had as much fun with this character at low levels as I did above level 10.

Person_Man
2008-12-04, 03:07 PM
There's a feat in Magic of Faerun called Spell Thematics, which let's you alter the visual and auditory appearance of a spell. Apply Spell Thematics to Cone of Cold or whatever, and you can get the coolness of Color Spray, but the effects of a more meaningful spell.

Eldariel
2008-12-04, 03:25 PM
How on earth is a single 15-foot cone going to hit four 10' by 10' creatures with natural reach? Whichever ones you miss or fail to affect with the first spell are going to kill you.

- Saph

I was referring to two castings. You do, after all, have 3-5 level 1 slots on average (1 standard + 1-2 specialization + 1-2 Int), so you can generally afford it. As far as natural reach goes: defensive casting. And yea, of course the rest of the party acts too (Cause Fear from the Cleric, for example, helps a lot; meatshields of course try to make the Wizard room for the Spray).

Just, without the Wizard with Color Spray handy, they are extremely unlikely to have the oomph to get the job done. Most other strong Will-save targeting level 1 spells either have a HD limit that prevents getting the job done, or don't make the Ogres lose hard enough (make no mistake, I'm not saying a band of 4 Ogres is a walkover for a party with Color Spray; just the party with Color Spray has a fine chance of winning while the party without it is unlikely to barring extremely favourable conditions).

Frerezar
2008-12-04, 03:25 PM
ok, as good as that spell is at lower levels its nothign to fear, SPELLBADE is here. done

LibraryOgre
2008-12-04, 03:52 PM
I always wanted to make an alternate version that increased in range and # of targets per level. At 1st level, it would only get 1 person, but at high levels, it could drop several.