Shojo: Dream or.....?

[ABB]

Some people have assumed that the Shojo who recently appeared to belkar was a dream belkar had.

I'm not sure.

I just don't think that the belkster had thoughts and images like that in his head, so it could not have been a dream, since dreams come from within.

Assuming it wasn't a dream, what do you think it was?

[Mariel Dragon]

as I stated in another Thread:

My theory still is, that the MoJ is loosely programmed to give Belkar a chance to redeem himself. Maybe even being programmed that Shojo explains everything. But I imagine, that there are only rough guidelines programmed into it, no concrete behaviour. This is generated by the mind of the cursed, creating little details as mentioning Mr. Scruffy is traveling with Belkar. The passcode "Evolve or die" just fits in too good with Belkars vision for it to be just a fever-hallucination. If Shojo really was a ghost, I doubt he would see that Belkar sees himself as a one-dimensional character. This is either a fact Belkar's mind adds to the MoJ effect, or specifically programmed into it. We do not know, how it works exactly, but I see both ways possible.
So, to summarize it, I find both the ghost and the fever dream theory highly unlikely, at the very least.

[Kaytara]

It's possible the Mark of Justice was a spell to help better a person rather than just keep them indefinitely restrained. Therefore, maybe such thoughts and images are indeed too complex for Belkar to consider and were put into his mind by a supernatural nudge of magic.

...Meaning the Mark of Justice affected his subconsciousness in such a way as to prevent him from committing violence as wantonly as he did earlier.

It's really anyone's guess, though.

[fangthane]

It was a figment of Belkar's imagination. There's no proof either way of course, as there never is in any fundamental epistemological question; even if "Shojo" had come out and said "oh by the way this visitation is very much real and preprogrammed into the Mark of Justice," there'd be no objective proof that his admission was in fact accurate.

I consider it to have been an artifact of Belkar's subconscious, an articulation of his instinctive realisation that he's crossed a line - not one with which he's ever been concerned, but one which obviously affects those around him and the way they react to him. He's been unable to consciously rationalise that realisation, but the figment gives him the opportunity to reconcile it with his conscious perceptions.

Of course, I could just as easily be wrong as anyone else, since there's no direct proof that Belkar's hallucination, fugue, visitation or whatever is even over. Go ahead. Prove that he's not just a brain in a jar somewhere being fed electrochemical impulses designed to artificially generate a perceived reality. :smallbiggrin:

[Jack_Banzai]

Prove that he's not just a brain in a jar somewhere being fed electrochemical impulses designed to artificially generate a perceived reality. :smallbiggrin:

First you would have to convince me that you're not just a brain in a jar somewhere being fed electrochemical impulses designed to artificially generate a perceived reality.:smallwink:

[Fitzclowningham]

Of course I don't know for sure, but my gut says the apparition comes from outside of Belkar. As mentioned above, none of his previous actions or words betrayed the subtlety of mind necessary to whip up dream-Shojo's rhetoric. Not that it matters, of course.

[Zeful]

as I stated in another Thread:

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd80/AwXomeMan/morbo.jpg
MARK OF JUSTICE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm)

It can't actually. On the onset of casting you chose what activities will trigger it. That's all. It doesn't have a "Headtrip" function.

It was a dream.

[Kaytara]

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd80/AwXomeMan/morbo.jpg
MARK OF JUSTICE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm)

It can't actually. On the onset of casting you chose what activities will trigger it. That's all. It doesn't have a "Headtrip" function.

It was a dream.

Since we're looking at d20srd here, that entry says that the mark sets off an effect identical to Bestow Curse. Under Bestow Curse, there's no mention of vomiting and nearly falling into a coma. It does say you can invent your own curse, under the condition that it's no more powerful than the default effects, but something that can reduce BELKAR to the equivalent of a newborn kitten sick with the flu sounds a lot more powerful in that.

Also, it's still OotS and Rich uses plenty of houserules, so if he wants the MoJ to do something else other than the default, then it can and will.

[Hands_Of_Blue]

MARK OF JUSTICE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm)Yes, but this is the Greater Mark of Justice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0569.html).

[Raging Gene Ray]

It's also called a Greater Mark of Justice by The Giant Floating Illusory Head of Lord Shojo (Which I don't think a regular MoJ could create), so we could find out in 55 strips that it could have anything and everything coded within it.

EDIT: Ninja'd by the Blue Hand Group up there.

That said, I think it was a bizarre fever dream, and that Rich won't come back to it for awhile...maybe it'll get mentioned when Belkar explains to Celia and Haley why he's no longer cursed.

[King of Nowhere]

If it was Sojo's ghost from the afterlife, maybe we'll see Sojo in said afterlife planning or commenting or doing something. Otherwise, we'll never know.

[Ladorak]

Giant uses homebrew when it suits the plot. I'm not sure the 'MoJ doesn't do that' arguement is valid...

Given the key word to deactivate the spell, I'd say it was part of the spell. No way to be sure tho.

[Optimystik]

Yes, but this is the Greater Mark of Justice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0569.html).

Greater Mark of Justice
Necromancy
Level: Clr 6
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Permanent; see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell functions like Mark of Justice, except for the following:

You may choose any two of the effects listed under Bestow Curse, rather than just one.
At the time of casting, you may denote a word or short phrase as a password. If you do, Remove Curse and Break Enchantment cannot remove this spell unless the caster says the chosen word phrase during his attempt. This effect stacks with Mark of Justice's normal restriction on Remove Curse. Limited Wish, Miracle and Wish remain unaffected.


---

I would have made it level 7, but Cole can't cast level 7 spells (i.e. resurrection) so he wouldn't have been able to remove a level 7 mark. Thoughts?

[Assassin89]

I would have made it level 7, but Cole can't cast level 7 spells (i.e. resurrection) so he wouldn't have been able to remove a level 7 mark. Thoughts?

Maybe Cole has a certain domain or feat that allows him to remove anything with a spell level above the caster level.

[[TS] Shadow]

There were a few examples left over in the strip: hallucination, curse, or actual spirt of Shojo. The fact is that we'll probably never know and it isn't an important point why he's there anyway.

[Optimystik]

Maybe Cole has a certain domain or feat that allows him to remove anything with a spell level above the caster level.

I wonder what you'd call that? Talented Abjurer? :smallsmile:

Perhaps the GMoJ simply dispenses with the level requirement for Remove Curse, in favor of the password approach. That would make it stronger against clerics who are unfamiliar with Azure City punishments.

EDIT:


Shadow;5415715']There were a few examples left over in the strip: hallucination, curse, or actual spirt of Shojo. The fact is that we'll probably never know and it isn't an important point why he's there anyway.

If you don't feel like discussing something, why post in a thread about it?

[[TS] Shadow]

If you don't feel like discussing something, why post in a thread about it?

I have nothing wrong with discussion: I have posted a thread about this subject myself. The fact is that interesting as it may be, how Shojo appeared has no affect on the story.

[Zevox]

Personally, I'd say Shojo was most likely a side effect of the mark. The password "evolve or die" fit with his discussion with Belkar too well to be mere coincidence IMO.

Alternatively, I could see it being a fever dream as a logical explanation. I really doubt it was actually Shojo's spirit, though. The old guy just didn't care enough about Belkar to visit him from beyond the grave like that. And given he was good-aligned, I doubt he'd actually intentionally help Belkar to learn to do evil in a way he's more likely to live through. (Though that may also be a good argument against the "it was a side effect of the Mark" stance now that I think of it...)

Zevox

[Optimystik]

Shadow;5415789']I have nothing wrong with discussion: I have posted a thread about this subject myself. The fact is that interesting as it may be, how Shojo appeared has no affect on the story.

On the contrary; anything the Giant puts into his comics, such as the thought processes of the PCs, the way he houserules existing spells or creates new ones, and especially his philosophies on alignment, provide us insight into how he thinks and aid in our predictions and theories. The Shojo Redemption happens to be all three at once.

I haven't even touched on the ramifications for people that want to add OotS elements to their own games, such as creating their own version of the Greater Mark of Justice as I did. :smallsmile:

[Fitzclowningham]

Alternatively, I could see it being a fever dream as a logical explanation. I really doubt it was actually Shojo's spirit, though. The old guy just didn't care enough about Belkar to visit him from beyond the grave like that. And given he was good-aligned, I doubt he'd actually intentionally help Belkar to learn to do evil in a way he's more likely to live through. (Though that may also be a good argument against the "it was a side effect of the Mark" stance now that I think of it...)

Zevox

Being Chaotic Good, Shojo might have cared if he were to have unjustly punished someone. I could easily see him building in a failsafe to give the condemned a second chance. Belkar just nailed it.

[starburst98]

even if shojo does not care about belkar, he does care about mr. scruffy.

[Zevox]

Being Chaotic Good, Shojo might have cared if he were to have unjustly punished someone. I could easily see him building in a failsafe to give the condemned a second chance. Belkar just nailed it.
The thing is, there isn't any aspect of their conversation that would indicate he was trying to shift Belkar away from his evil ways. Indeed, Belkar very overtly told Shojo he'd given him "all sorts of sneaky new ways to raise hell." Doesn't seem very "give him a second chance in case he's being wrongly punished" to me.

Zevox

[multilis]

perhaps Mr. Scruffy. We have no idea what sort of jokes may be lampshaded and come out much later in plot.

For all we know Mr. Scruffy could be avatar of Snarl evolved, plotting his own escape as pretend "minnion" of those trying to stop him, and it will take a dumb bard to figure it out.

Team Evil, Linear Guild and OOTS wouldn't free him if they win, just use him or block him. But by playing them against each other...

Or on other hand...

Scruffy and/or Oracle could be working for a secret 'good' side that quietly keeps Snarl trapped using others. 'Use the Force Luke', Frodo in LOTR gets supernatural/magic/telepathic help at times, and many other stories have similar 'help' from a secret third party.

[Optimystik]

For all we know Mr. Scruffy could be avatar of Snarl evolved, plotting his own escape as pretend "minnion" of those trying to stop him, and it will take a dumb bard to figure it out.

This reminds me of all the "Bela is the Creator" theories that crop up on Wheel of Time boards. :smallsigh:

[[TS] Shadow]

On the contrary; anything the Giant puts into his comics, such as the thought processes of the PCs, the way he houserules existing spells or creates new ones, and especially his philosophies on alignment, provide us insight into how he thinks and aid in our predictions and theories. The Shojo Redemption happens to be all three at once.

You misunderstood me. Shojo's appearance is important. HOW Shojo appeared (meaning the method which he appeared) isn't important.

[Optimystik]

Shadow;5420685']You misunderstood me. Shojo's appearance is important. HOW Shojo appeared (meaning the method which he appeared) isn't important.

Again you are assuming that what is important or unimportant to you will be uniformly so for other readers of this comic. Some of us ARE curious about whether Shojo's manifestation is:


a byproduct of Belkar's tortured halfling psyche;
A message from beyond the grave;
A side effect of the GMoJ spell itself;
A hidden power of Mr. Scruffy;
Something else entirely (Sarda!);
Any combination of the above.


So you see, assigning a lack of importance to things based on your personal opinion doesn't classify them as such. :smallsmile:

[David Argall]

The idea that this was a dream is clearly the easy solution. A dream is pretty much meaningless and so we don't need to worry about anything making sense.
But with the other ideas, we look and we end up asking why? Why would anyone act to cause this dream? Could it really do this? The questions multiply as we look closer.
Maybe these ideas can be defended, but it seems better not to bother.

[[TS] Shadow]

Again you are assuming that what is important or unimportant to you will be uniformly so for other readers of this comic. Some of us ARE curious about whether Shojo's manifestation is:


a byproduct of Belkar's tortured halfling psyche;
A message from beyond the grave;
A side effect of the GMoJ spell itself;
A hidden power of Mr. Scruffy;
Something else entirely (Sarda!);
Any combination of the above.


So you see, assigning a lack of importance to things based on your personal opinion doesn't classify them as such. :smallsmile:

Like David Argall said, it's probably not worth it to bother. You can speculate all you want, and I won't care, the fact is that how he got there is unimportant.

[Optimystik]

Shadow;5421813']Like David Argall said, it's probably not worth it to bother. You can speculate all you want, and I won't care, the fact is that how he got there is unimportant.

Qualifier: to you. (And David.)

You keep omitting that for some reason.

[ABB]

Well, an interesting point here is that whatever the vision of shojo was, it goaded balkar into saying the right words to get the MoJ removed just in time. If it had been a dream of belkars that was damn coincidental timing.

It was more likely some intelligence that could at least see a little into the future wanted to get the belkster back on his hairy little feet in time to save haley, and I think belkar will save haley just to make her ashamed of not helping him when he needed it. (Ooooh, will that burn haley as much as her new haircut...)

The whole thing seemed mostly aimed at getting the b man to say the righ thing to get healed in time to do his stuff on the baddo's, making me think it was not a dream of belkar's.

Maybe Mr. Scruffy cast it on him, or used telepathy?

[Zeebiedeebie]

Maybe Mr. Scruffy cast it on him, or used telepathy?

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/22/yes.gif

[Optimystik]

Well, an interesting point here is that whatever the vision of shojo was, it goaded balkar into saying the right words to get the MoJ removed just in time. If it had been a dream of belkars that was damn coincidental timing.

More people need to think about this.