PDA

View Full Version : Atheist BBEG in FR



Doresain
2008-12-04, 09:42 PM
im trying to make a bad guy that will travel with the party for a good majority of the game...in fact, he will be with them from the beginning and through his subtle guidance will lead them to accidentally freeing an elder evil (im thinking either Pandorym or Sertrous)

im just a little at a loss as to what to make the guy...im pretty set on Vasharen being the race, im just torn between classes...im thinking either a psionic class (soulknife or psion) or one of the classes from ToM

Innis Cabal
2008-12-04, 09:44 PM
Well....something you need to think about here.

If he is in fact completly and totally atheistic. He will be thrown into the Wall by Big K and will not be able to be rezzed.

If he dies. Your out a BBEG unless you wanna throw convention, fluff and the setting out the window.

If he "can't" die. He becomes a DMPC and no one likes those.

Dangerous waters bud.

Crow
2008-12-04, 09:45 PM
Sounds like a bad idea to me. Good chance your players end up hating this guy and killing him in his sleep.

Doresain
2008-12-04, 10:50 PM
well im trying to get two of the other players in on this...that way he isnt all by his lonesome in his quest to unleash the ultimate weapon against the gods

and i dont plan on making him a real big jerk...hes gunna be insane, but likeable enough to attempt to get away with a bunch of stuff...and seeing as how there isnt a paladin in the group, it shouldnt be too hard

Innis Cabal
2008-12-04, 10:54 PM
Thats honestly an even worse idea.

Then its just going to spilt the party. Which is really not a good idea with all the other things mentioned. This really seems like it will lead to major issues.

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-04, 11:05 PM
To get a handle on how atheism works in a typical D&D world, consider the following conversation:

"Oh, well, I don't believe in kings."
"... What? How do you think kingdoms are governed? And they've got servants implementing their will all over the place. Hell, I've met kings."
"Those guys aren't real kings. People call them kings, but they're not true kings."
"Oh, really? Is that a fact?"
"Yeah, it is. A true monarch holds a position of absolute power. But 'kings' are beholden to all sorts of interests. They rely on the support of those 'below' them. They have to do all sorts of things to maintain that support. They have to avoid pissing off other kings. They're far from being able to do whatever they want. If you want to know who's in position of real power, search for where a king gets his power from. Nobles, the military, powerful spellcasters. A whole bunch of people that he has to pay or obey, because he needs to keep them happy."
"That's a rather specious definition of 'king' you've got there."
"Hey, these so-called kings present themselves as totally controlling everything. What I'm saying is that the image they project is a false one. The presented ideal of kinghood is an illusion. Pah, charlatans, the lot of them! I neither respect nor fear them."

Of course, in FR in particular, someone who refuses to worship any gods probably is ignorant about the afterlife or has plans on how to avoid it.

Crow
2008-12-04, 11:19 PM
...and seeing how there are those who have actually seen the wall of the faithless...the concept is a bit ridiculous.

Why is he going to unleash the ultimate weapon against the gods if he doesn't believe in them?

Innis Cabal
2008-12-04, 11:21 PM
...and seeing how there are those who have actually seen the wall of the faithless...the concept is a bit ridiculous.

Its not like the fact is hidden either. Anyone who wants to summon an elder evil should at the very least have a small bit of info on the world beyond.

Piedmon_Sama
2008-12-04, 11:26 PM
I don't mean to be insulting, Doresain, but is it possible you have a somewhat mistaken definition of what an atheist is? A lot of people (like, oh, say, Hollywood) think it means "angry at/disrespectful/challenging towards" a god or gods. It's not, it means you simply do not believe in gods (or to put it even more broadly: disbelief in spirits, souls, totems, miracles, spells or anything supernatural).

Mewtarthio
2008-12-04, 11:26 PM
Methinks the OP was actually referring to a misotheist: A guy who believes in the gods, but does not consider them worthy of worship.

The Minx
2008-12-04, 11:35 PM
To get a handle on how atheism works in a typical D&D world, consider the following conversation:

<snippy>

Of course, in FR in particular, someone who refuses to worship any gods probably is ignorant about the afterlife or has plans on how to avoid it.

The question would be whether the "gods" are worthy of worship or not, as opposed to whether they exist. If not, they can be rejected as "gods" and then are nothing more than very powerful immortals. After all, numerous super-humanly powerful outsiders exist in most D&D worlds, they are not considered "gods". The definition of "king" you used as an analogy is not really appropriate. The question would be not whether the king exists, but whether you would want to kneel before him and call him king, and indeed, whether you would want any "king" at all.

EDIT:

Methinks the OP was actually referring to a misotheist: A guy who believes in the gods, but does not consider them worthy of worship.

Ah, missed your post. Yes, that would be it.

And Piedmon_Sama is correct: an "atheist" is someone who simply does not think gods or supernatural entities exist.

EDIT 2: some more edits for clarification and grammar. >.<

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-05, 12:11 AM
If not, they can be rejected as "gods" and then are nothing more than very powerful immortals.
They're not immortal, either. They can be killed. :smallamused:


The definition of "king" you used as an analogy is not really appropriate.
It's wholly appropriate to the point I wanted to make. A lot of semantic disputes happen because a lot of words are more connotation than hard-and-fast meaning.

Basically, in order to decide who qualifies as an "atheist", you need to decide what a "god" is (and what "belief" is, which is actually rather complicated). And this applies within a fictional world, not just to our discussions of fictional worlds, and influences who identifies as an "atheist" within a given setting.


And Piedmon_Sama is correct: an "atheist" is someone who simply does not think gods or supernatural entities exist.
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in the existence of deities. Disbelief in the supernatural is philisophical naturalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)).

Piedmon_Sama
2008-12-05, 12:22 AM
I would argue with that. I think it's impossible to be an Atheist and a Buddhist or an Atheist Animist. But going any further would break the rules of this forum, so I'll just say it's not all that important whether Doresain is using the word appropriately or not as long as he knows what he wants to do for his campaign.

Jayabalard
2008-12-05, 12:30 AM
...and seeing how there are those who have actually seen the wall of the faithless...Seeing, contrary to popular wisdom, isn't believing. It's where belief stops, because it isn't needed any more.

Just because there's incontrovertible evidence for the existence of the gods doesn't mean that you should go around believing in them.

The Minx
2008-12-05, 12:49 AM
They're not immortal, either. They can be killed. :smallamused:

To quote the Crow, "Immortality, like virtue, has its degrees". :smallamused:


It's wholly appropriate to the point I wanted to make. A lot of semantic disputes happen because a lot of words are more connotation than hard-and-fast meaning.

Basically, in order to decide who qualifies as an "atheist", you need to decide what a "god" is (and what "belief" is, which is actually rather complicated). And this applies within a fictional world, not just to our discussions of fictional worlds, and influences who identifies as an "atheist" within a given setting.

If you mean to say that an "atheist" in a fantasy setting can acknowledge the existence of supernatural beings but rejects their right to worship, then you are sort-of echoing my own position. However, see point below.


Atheism is simply a lack of belief in the existence of deities. Disbelief in the supernatural is philisophical naturalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)).

There is more to it than that. Regardless of technical definitions, atheism is a philosophical position arrived at via certain postulates that pertain to the supernatural, not mere semantic definition.

Anyway, if we are on the subject of philosophical naturalism, there is also the important question of what qualifies as "supernatural" in the first place. If you can create a testable model that describes what a given force does, is it not a part of "nature"? Is magic not then simply the "technology" in a universe where the laws of physics are different from our own?

Tacoma
2008-12-05, 12:49 AM
I think in D&D the issue is not whether characters think gods exist. It's possible they might think that Clerics are just another kind of Wizard. There are plenty of kinds of magic. And actually having your god appear and talk with you could just be some silly illusion or mind control.

But when it comes to FR society, people tend to know what is possible. They know that Wizards cannot create whole continents or blow up entire mountain ranges. So when the Time of Troubles stupidity blew through like a Solid Fart on a clear Monday morning, people knew that something new was going on. Here was proof that something more powerful than the most powerful Wizards was roaming the land. But similarly they realized that these gods could be killed. At least right then.

So this Wall of the Faithless is really not about whether you recognize that a god exists or what powers he has. It's about devotion. If you devote yourself to a being able to direct your soul away from that Wall when you die, that being will reward you with some other afterlife. It seems that in FR any being capable of doing that is a god, this is the definition of theism and therefore of deity.

Thus belief is inconsequential. If your god Torm says his enemy is Loviatar and you must work against her minions, your god is telling you to believe in Loviatar. He's not telling you to worship her, but in order to follow his orders you must believe she exists.

As the OP suggests, this means his BBEG simply worships no god. And because of this he would be snagged by the Wall. Which IMO is a silly mechanic and it should be some kind of limbo. Perhaps among all the lost souls of the tormented armies of the Blood War between the Chaotic and Lawful demons most are evil beings who were rewarded with this afterlife of pain, but others are simply those who were left adrift and got snagged by the wrong crowd. Which means (without discarding all the fluff of FR, just a small part) that you can still be raised and resurrected but your afterlife is really going to suck. That alone would be enough to encourage people to pick a god and stick with it.

Or say their souls are just adrift. The afterlife is boring nothingness forever. Again, which do you choose, an afterlife you'd love forever and ever or floating in grey space forever and ever.

Or, say that while the BBEG chose no god and worships no god, that some god has chosen him for whatever reason. This god is likely going to plan on doing interesting things with him in the future.

Point is your BBEG can worship no god and still work out fine.

Incidentally, I'd suggest giving him an arcane class that gives some healing so he can pose as a Cleric if neccessary. Bard is a good choice. Just don't focus on music. Or take away his Bard Song and make it a meditative internal thing instead and it affects only him. This is a solid game balance tradeoff for losing the area of effect but gaining immunity to Silence.

EDIT: Chilling effect of forum rules encouraged voluntary self-censorship.

The Minx
2008-12-05, 12:57 AM
I think in D&D the issue is not whether characters think gods exist. It's possible they might think that Clerics are just another kind of Wizard. There are plenty of kinds of magic. And actually having your god appear and talk with you could just be some silly illusion or mind control.

But when it comes to FR society, people tend to know what is possible. They know that Wizards cannot create whole continents or blow up entire mountain ranges. So when the Time of Troubles stupidity blew through like a Solid Fart on a clear Monday morning, people knew that something new was going on. Here was proof that something more powerful than the most powerful Wizards was roaming the land. But similarly they realized that these gods could be killed. At least right then.

There is a difference in degree here, not a difference in nature. Say you live in a village where the most powerful thing you have seen is the local bard casting cantrips. Along comes a 20th level mage. Is he a "god", something fundamentally different? Not really.

But in your post you hit on an important point: a "god" in the setting is someone or something who can direct souls away from the Wall, and will do so for a price.

Supposing that the BBEG in the OP's setting had somehow discovered a way to save his own soul from that fate? Then there would be no need for FR type "gods", and these powerful entities would seem only as tyrannical and petty overlords blackmailing the mortals of the world into doing their bidding.

In that scenario the BBEG in question could indeed become a "misotheist" (according to Mewthario's definition) or an "atheist" according to Devil's Advocate definition (which I disagree with :smallwink:).

He needn't even be evil, he could just as easily work as a Chaotic guy who hated the system Lord Ao has set up.

Tacoma
2008-12-05, 01:02 AM
Maybe he is trying to find this artifact that will save him from the Wall, and the gods who find out about it don't like it one bit because this horns in on their protection racket.

Heck, who says there IS an Ao? Maybe a bunch of gods cooked up the whole Wall scheme and the Time of Troubles as a mafia-like method of keeping everything under their thumbs.

Maybe Ao is a celestial lawmaker but the BBEG has discovered where these laws are kept. He can't change them, but he's found a few loopholes ... these allow him to skirt reality and limitations in specific cases. Such as escaping the Wall.
The players' final confrontation with him might require that they travel to this Celestial Law Library and find some loopholes themselves.

This is ... pretty good. I will use this.

Yahzi
2008-12-05, 01:13 AM
and i dont plan on making him a real big jerk...hes gunna be insane, but likeable enough to attempt to get away with a bunch of stuff...and seeing as how there isnt a paladin in the group, it shouldnt be too hard
I make it a matter of policy to murder DMPCs on sight, for no worse crime than existing.

I can't imagine tolerating a insane one who is getting away with stuff for more time than it takes to roll initiative.

Dacia Brabant
2008-12-05, 01:15 AM
Interestingly enough, one of the BBEG monster races in FR, the Phaerimms, are anti-theists, so if you really want to throw a god-hating end moster at the PCs but without this whole "main villain is a member of the party" shtick (hint: don't do that in a game), you can always chuck one of those at them. Be advised, they are quite powerful.

Also, in 4e FR there is no more Wall of the Faithless, Kelemvor just judges them as he sees it now. Which is kinda too bad, I thought that was one of the more interesting metaphors in that setting.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-05, 01:29 AM
Maybe he is trying to find this artifact that will save him from the Wall, and the gods who find out about it don't like it one bit because this horns in on their protection racket.

Heck, who says there IS an Ao? Maybe a bunch of gods cooked up the whole Wall scheme and the Time of Troubles as a mafia-like method of keeping everything under their thumbs.

Maybe Ao is a celestial lawmaker but the BBEG has discovered where these laws are kept. He can't change them, but he's found a few loopholes ... these allow him to skirt reality and limitations in specific cases. Such as escaping the Wall.
The players' final confrontation with him might require that they travel to this Celestial Law Library and find some loopholes themselves.

This is ... pretty good. I will use this.
Well, we know the gods were more-or-less shunted to the Realms in the Time of Troubles, so there might be something to this whole Ao thing.

Anyway, I like this angle. Seems like something that would actually happen in the Realms. A mortal finds some way to screw around in the cosmology and a bunch of gods have to get involved for various reasons, bringing their politics over into the mortal realm.

Other gods may even want to get their hands on the artifact for reasons of their own. We all know that Cyric has a bone to pick with Kelemvor. The more duty-bound gods like Torm may feel obligated to destroy or remove the artifact from play.

FR is note for a turbulent cosmology where the gods have been killed or cast-down and where other mortals have been promoted. So why not an artifact or a set of loopholes that screws with the Wall of the Faithful?

Doresain
2008-12-05, 01:38 AM
yes atheist wasnt the word i was looking for...it was that "M" word that i lost track of after reading through some of these posts...but more along the lines of truly hating the gods and wanting to end what is believes to be the greatest abomination in existence: existence itself...he believes that the planes have suffered enough of what he considers "the immoral meddling of the gods" and plans to "save" it by ending it...he is throughly insane, but a rather subtle insanity...

im sorry i didnt clear this up earlier, i just had a lot going on when i posted

and in regards to a couple of the PCs helping me out, they chose evil to begin with...i figured i could just fit them into the sotry a little better and keep them from trying to kill the party

Eclipse
2008-12-05, 01:43 AM
I thought the faithless were simply doomed to live outside of any happy afterlife, and rather had a rather dreary but not harsh afterlife, while it was the false, those who betrayed their gods, who ended up in the wall. I could be wrong though, it's definitely been a long time since I read those books or that part of the campaign setting.

As far as how Atheism works, there's actually a series about a cleric who is an atheist, then an agnostic, before finally coming to believe in his god. Before that point in time, he is actually a little scared of his powers and unhappy with them, and even tries to explain them as wizardry. Of course, he eventually accepts his god and his powers, but not until about halfway through the series.

So, it is possible to have those who don't believe in the gods, or think they're just incredibly powerful mortals, within an FR setting with a degree of realism. Remember that even when the gods get involved in mortal affairs, it's not obvious to all the mortals in the realms that this has happened. In fact, most people won't know, and do have to take it on faith that the gods are there.

For those interested, the series I'm talking about The Cleric Quintet by R.A. Salvatore, based in the Forgotten Realms.

Edit: ninja'd by the post above saying the OP wasn't looking for an atheist anyway.

hewhosaysfish
2008-12-05, 08:26 AM
I'm sure I remember reading that Demons sometimes try to attack the wall, tearing tasty souls out of it and eating them. Nom nom nom.
Perhaps you could have an organisation of like-minded misotheists (was it Planescape which had the Athar?) that make it a point to Plane Shift to the Fugue Plane and launch commando raids to retrieve their fallen members?

Eclipse
2008-12-05, 09:36 AM
I'm sure I remember reading that Demons sometimes try to attack the wall, tearing tasty souls out of it and eating them. Nom nom nom.
Perhaps you could have an organisation of like-minded misotheists (was it Planescape which had the Athar?) that make it a point to Plane Shift to the Fugue Plane and launch commando raids to retrieve their fallen members?

Oh, that reminds me... sometimes, demons also make deals with people bound for the wall. If that soul will join the demons, they can be "saved" from becoming a part of the wall. So, if you want to stick to the fluff, and if the BBEG is offed earlier than you're hoping for, he could come back later as a demon.

P.S. I'm actually not sure if it was a group of demons or devils, or what type it was, but you should be able to find the specifics in one of the FR books, which I currently don't have access to unfortunately. Otherwise, I'd look myself.

Morty
2008-12-05, 09:38 AM
Devils have made a deal with Kelemvor in order to get the souls of the False and the Faithless. Demons launch raids.
And given that there's a whole race that hates gods and wants to see them dead, I don't think a human who shares that belief would be too far off.

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-05, 11:02 PM
Ah, so if all goes as planned (always a questionable assumption), the evil protagonists will eventually discover that their compatriot is plotting to destroy the multiverse, and have to stop him?

"We can't let him destroy the world! That's where I keep all my stuff! :smalleek:"

Innis Cabal
2008-12-05, 11:07 PM
Point is your BBEG can worship no god and still work out fine.



No. Thats not how it works in FR. If you do not -worship- a god Kelemvor takes your soul. Period. End of Story. Your either placed in the wall or put to work -MAKING THE WALL-. The gods are real in FR. The whole world works on the worship of mortals.

If you just beleive in a god your part of the Unfaithful. And you get a much worse fate then The False.

Thurbane
2008-12-05, 11:49 PM
Maybe he can just be a god-hater instead of a non-believer?

If so, the PrCs of Ur-Priest or Athar might be fitting...

The Minx
2008-12-05, 11:59 PM
Doresain: As Innis Cabal points out, the Wall is the main problem. As Thurbane points out, an Ur-Priest would work here.

I reiterate my suggestion from above. Your BBEG could be someone who has figured out how to avoid becoming part of the Wall. An Ur-Priest might glean this information (he is continually stealing power from the gods, or he might have discovered it some other way).

Killersquid
2008-12-06, 12:30 AM
Maybe he can just be a god-hater instead of a non-believer?

If so, the PrCs of Ur-Priest or Athar might be fitting...

No, you're still put in the wall. You could take a page out of Mask of the Betrayer and make him launch yet ANOTHER crusade against it.

Thurbane
2008-12-06, 02:24 AM
No, you're still put in the wall. You could take a page out of Mask of the Betrayer and make him launch yet ANOTHER crusade against it.
I must admit I am totally unfamiliar with the peculiarities of the afterlife in the Realms. My suggestion was merely some classes that might fit the adversary thematically, not in response of anything to do with this wall. :smallwink:

The Minx
2008-12-06, 04:54 PM
No, you're still put in the wall. You could take a page out of Mask of the Betrayer and make him launch yet ANOTHER crusade against it.

Naturally, the BBEG in question would have to have found a homebrew way of avoiding that.

hamishspence
2008-12-06, 05:27 PM
Deities and Demigods worded it differntly, saying "the souls of those with no patron deity wander the fugue plane till being snatched by devils or demons" and only the souls of those who actively oppose worship of the gods become The Faithless.

(the false being those who genuinely worshipped, but betrayed/angered deity enough to be rejected- thus consigned to the City of Judgement)

However, I suspect writers of this bit hadn't actually read the FRCS.

Prometheus
2008-12-06, 11:32 PM
So what, you guys are saying that even in a fantasy world atheists are still the most hated groups as reflected by world religion and its cosmology? Bummer.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-06, 11:42 PM
Deities and Demigods worded it differntly, saying "the souls of those with no patron deity wander the fugue plane till being snatched by devils or demons" and only the souls of those who actively oppose worship of the gods become The Faithless.

(the false being those who genuinely worshipped, but betrayed/angered deity enough to be rejected- thus consigned to the City of Judgement)

However, I suspect writers of this bit hadn't actually read the FRCS.
You're actually better off directly opposing the worship of the gods by this interpretation.

So yes, you're not punished for not worshiping per se, you're just snatched for a fate of eternal damnation and/or torture by demons or devils. This, as opposed to being put into a Wall for a slow and painful annihilation because you actively opposed the gods.

What I don't get is why Kelemvor didn't revise the policy with the Wall of the Faithless and skip to the annihilation? I get that the previous gods of death were utter bastards, but Kelemvor was supposed to be more "just" in his treatment of mortals.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-06, 11:51 PM
I thought the faithless were simply doomed to live outside of any happy afterlife, and rather had a rather dreary but not harsh afterlife, while it was the false, those who betrayed their gods, who ended up in the wall. I could be wrong though, it's definitely been a long time since I read those books or that part of the campaign setting.

As far as how Atheism works, there's actually a series about a cleric who is an atheist, then an agnostic, before finally coming to believe in his god. Before that point in time, he is actually a little scared of his powers and unhappy with them, and even tries to explain them as wizardry. Of course, he eventually accepts his god and his powers, but not until about halfway through the series.

So, it is possible to have those who don't believe in the gods, or think they're just incredibly powerful mortals, within an FR setting with a degree of realism. Remember that even when the gods get involved in mortal affairs, it's not obvious to all the mortals in the realms that this has happened. In fact, most people won't know, and do have to take it on faith that the gods are there.

For those interested, the series I'm talking about The Cleric Quintet by R.A. Salvatore, based in the Forgotten Realms.

Edit: ninja'd by the post above saying the OP wasn't looking for an atheist anyway.
First off, atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive, despite popular belief. You can be an agnostic atheist. The direct polar opposite of that is a gnostic theist.

Secondly, I don't ever remember Cadderly being an atheist. He believed the gods existed and was moreover a part of Oghma's clergy. He just didn't entirely fit-in because he was more like a Gondish inventor, which are scorned by Ohgma's clergy as being rash and irresponsible in their use of knowledge. And moreover, he was merely a small fry to start out with. He worshiped Ohgma, he just wasn't especially devout at first.

AKA_Bait
2008-12-07, 12:02 AM
First off, atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive, despite popular belief. You can be an agnostic atheist. The direct polar opposite of that is a gnostic theist.

Confused. Please explain. Atheist says: "God does not exist." Agnostic says "I don't know" or for non-pansy agnostics "I can't know".

I suppose you could have "I don't know but I choose to believe that God does not exist". Is that what you are getting at?


@OP I'd go support role. Players are more likley not to knife someone in their sleep if they are useful. What you want screams to me ARCHIVIST!

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-07, 01:26 AM
Confused. Please explain. Atheist says: "God does not exist." Agnostic says "I don't know" or for non-pansy agnostics "I can't know".

I suppose you could have "I don't know but I choose to believe that God does not exist". Is that what you are getting at?


@OP I'd go support role. Players are more likley not to knife someone in their sleep if they are useful. What you want screams to me ARCHIVIST!
Agnosticism/Gnosticism
"Do you assert that knowledge of x is potentially knowable?"

Atheism/Theism
"Do you believe that a God or gods exist?"

===

So yes, you described an agnostic atheist. It is possible that a person of this type would assert that since nobody could possibly be an authority on this god, it's not practical to act as though a god existed. This is the classical "weak atheist."

"Apathetic atheists," a sub-category of weak atheists, would argue that even if a god did exist, there's no evidence that this god even cares if you follow certain dictates, much less show any devotion to it.

Keep in mind that even these distinctions are somewhat crude as you can be theistic for some god(s) and atheistic towards others. You could even be atheistic towards different versions of the "same" god. You may also believe that certain gods are gnostically provable/disprovable by the way somebody defines a "god."

It's very much worth noting that belief and knowledge are *NOT* the same things. The question of what constitutes "knowledge" is probably a whole topic of discussion on its own.