[3.5e] Wolfpack

[Fax Celestis]

So got an idea today for a character a bit out of the norm. I was thinking about worg characters and having a party be a pack of them...and then I considered the idea that one character could play the whole pack.

Bear with me, here's what I had in mind.

Worg 4/LA +1/Druid 1/Beastmaster 10/Druid +4

This with Natural Bond will make my companions the following: one effective level 23, two effective level 20, and one effective level 17. Feral Animal Companion (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Feral_Animal_Companion,all) should make them rabid.

I'm not really happy with that Druid +4 on the end, so I'd like to replace it with something. I'm not using Beast Heart Adept because...well, I'm not. I could replace it, I guess, so I could use worg companions, but nothing progresses the progression for Monstrous Companions the way Animal Companions do.

IF I were to go with Beast Heart Adept instead, I'd make my build more like:

Worg 4/LA +1/Marshal 2/Beast Heart Adept 10/Marshal +3

I like marshal better for this build because it gives the aura effect to my allies. I could do that with Dragon Shaman too, I guess, but marshal's auras work better for this concept, I think.

People's thoughts? Improvements? I'd like to make this viable, rather than "a neat concept".

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Try this:Worg 5/Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) 1/Druid 4/Arcane Heirophant 1/Beastmaster 9. You need the Wild Cohort, Obtain Familiar, and Precocious Apprentice feats.

[Fax Celestis]

Try this:Worg 5/Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) 1/Druid 4/Arcane Heirophant 1/Beastmaster 9. You need the Wild Cohort, Obtain Familiar, and Precocious Apprentice feats.

Too casty. Also, spellbook + no hands = pain in the neck.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Too casty. Also, spellbook + no hands = pain in the neck.Works with Sorc, too. I was just trying to get you smarter followers. At least grab Wild Cohort.

[RTGoodman]

Isn't there a Ranger variant out there somewhere that loses something else (spellcasting?) in exchange for full Animal Companion advancement? If so, maybe you could use that instead of Druid all together. If there's not anything like that, well, nevermind. :smallsigh:


Off the top of my head, the only other PrC I can think of that might have something for you is Animal Lord - I THINK it might get companion advancement, along with making you more animalistic (which, I guess, is pretty hard to do for a Worg).

[Thurbane]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4300796&postcount=11) may be of help. :smallwink:

[Kiyona]

Isn't there a Ranger variant out there somewhere that loses something else (spellcasting?) in exchange for full Animal Companion advancement? If so, maybe you could use that instead of Druid all together. If there's not anything like that, well, nevermind.

There is?? Oh my, that would make my kaobold ranger/scout/beastmaster riding a dire weasel so much better. :smallbiggrin:

Please enlighten me if there is. ^^

Sorry Fax for hijackin your thread, I just got so excited.

[RTGoodman]

There is?? Oh my, that would make my kaobold ranger/scout/beastmaster riding a dire weasel so much better. :smallbiggrin:

Please enlighten me if there is. ^^

Sorry Fax for hijackin your thread, I just got so excited.


Well, I searched quite a bit and couldn't find it, so I'm guessin' maybe I just saw it as a homebrew somewhere. I don't really think it'd be overpowered, though, to drop spellcasting and maybe a couple of other little things to give either full animal companion progression or a progression of [Level -3] instead of the normal 1/2 level.

[Epinephrine]

Bear with me, here's what I had in mind.

Worg 4/LA +1/Druid 1/Beastmaster 10/Druid +4

This with Natural Bond will make my companions the following: one effective level 23, two effective level 20, and one effective level 17.

My impression was that additional animal companions (after the first) only count the Beastmaster level for their power, so you end up with one strong one, one 7th level, one 4th level, and one 1st level.

The Extra Animal Companion ability specifically states: "Other class levels in classes that offer an animal companion don't stack for the purpose of determining the power of a beastmaster's additional animal companions, nor do they allow her to choose additional animal companions from the alternative lists."

Also, since Natural Bond only specifically affects your druid level for an animal companion, it doesn't even matter that it refers to animal companion in the singular - druid levels have nothing to do with beastmaster additional animal companions. It does point out that your effective druid level can't exceeed your class level though.

So it looks to me as if you'd have:

A level 20 animal companion (5 druid levels+10+3 beastmaster levels+3 Natural Bond, to a max of 20)
A level 7 animal companion (beatsmaster level -3)
A level 4 animal companion (beatsmaster level -6)
A level 1 animal companion (beatsmaster level -9)

Which is why beastmasters suck.

[Darrin]

I'm not really happy with that Druid +4 on the end, so I'd like to replace it with something.

Wild Plains Outrider advances Animal Companion. You could replace 3 Druid levels with that.

Wild Cohort + Silverwood Outrider?

Dip into Cavalier for another mount? Or does that only stack with a Paladin's mount?

Exalted Companion for Fiendish worgs?

[Fax Celestis]

My impression was that additional animal companions (after the first) only count the Beastmaster level for their power, so you end up with one strong one, one 7th level, one 4th level, and one 1st level.

The Extra Animal Companion ability specifically states: "Other class levels in classes that offer an animal companion don't stack for the purpose of determining the power of a beastmaster's additional animal companions, nor do they allow her to choose additional animal companions from the alternative lists."

Also, since Natural Bond only specifically affects your druid level for an animal companion, it doesn't even matter that it refers to animal companion in the singular - druid levels have nothing to do with beastmaster additional animal companions. It does point out that your effective druid level can't exceeed your class level though.

So it looks to me as if you'd have:

A level 20 animal companion (5 druid levels+10+3 beastmaster levels+3 Natural Bond, to a max of 20)
A level 7 animal companion (beatsmaster level -3)
A level 4 animal companion (beatsmaster level -6)
A level 1 animal companion (beatsmaster level -9)

Which is why beastmasters suck.

Yeah, I noticed that. Which is sauce.

I will probably be better served with a Worg 4/LA +1/Marshal 1/Beast Heart Adept 10/X 4 build, if that's the case.

[Epinephrine]

Yeah, I noticed that. Which is sauce.

I will probably be better served with a Worg 4/LA +1/Marshal 1/Beast Heart Adept 10/X 4 build, if that's the case.

Well, Beastmaster is a clearly massively inferior class as written. I'd talk it over with your DM and see what he feels is appropriate. The problem being that a 20th level partial druid with 4 nearly 20th level buffable animals might be too much, while as written it's unplayable. It's a PrC I've wanted to play before, but requires DM intervention to be useful.

The other (quite possibly non-) issue is that some gaming groups will get upset when you take 5 turns in a row essentially, for you and your companions. As long as you play the turns quickly so that every combat isn't about your horde, however, it shouldn't matter much. Leadership with Worg Cohort/followers might be reasonable too.

[Fax Celestis]

Oh, man, I completely forgot about leadership. Problem there is cheese-issues: my DMs are the kind who pretend it doesn't exist.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Oh, man, I completely forgot about leadership. Problem there is cheese-issues: my DMs are the kind who pretend it doesn't exist.Wild Cohort essentially Animal Companion in a feat. That's I think what he meant.

[Jasdoif]

Oh, man, I completely forgot about leadership. Problem there is cheese-issues: my DMs are the kind who pretend it doesn't exist.I think it's reasonable in this particular case, though.

I mean, if you accept a stipulation that all your followers must be worgs, that limits you to level 5+ followers (pretty sure you use ECL for determining followers), and pre-Epic Leadership that means you get a maximum of four followers (2 level 5, 2 level 6).

If that's not enough, put in another requirement that your higher-than-base-level followers are advanced through magical beast hit dice instead of character levels. And perhaps you can get a cohort under the same deal.


Hmm....Since this just occurred to me, you could replace three class levels with extra hit dice, to snag the size increase (you are the pack leader after all, it seems fitting).

[Fax Celestis]

I think it's reasonable in this particular case, though.

I mean, if you accept a stipulation that all your followers must be worgs, that limits you to level 5+ followers (pretty sure you use ECL for determining followers), and pre-Epic Leadership that means you get a maximum of four followers (2 level 5, 2 level 6).

If that's not enough, put in another requirement that your higher-than-base-level followers are advanced through magical beast hit dice instead of character levels. And perhaps you can get a cohort under the same deal.


Hmm....Since this just occurred to me, you could replace three class levels with extra hit dice, to snag the size increase (you are the pack leader after all, it seems fitting).

A good point. If I were to go Leadership route, would it be better to go with Bard, Marshal, Dragon Shaman, or similar? That way, I could buff en masse as a sort of "leading the charge" schtick.

[Jasdoif]

A good point. If I were to go Leadership route, would it be better to go with Bard, Marshal, Dragon Shaman, or similar? That way, I could buff en masse as a sort of "leading the charge" schtick.Definitely worth consideration. If you go the Leadership route, your followers are going to be seriously lagging in level; you'll want them to have all the bonuses you can get them. And if this pack is working alongside other characters of your level, they'll be happy to receive the same bonuses.

Also, schticks are fun.

[Fax Celestis]

Definitely worth consideration. If you go the Leadership route, your followers are going to be seriously lagging in level; you'll want them to have all the bonuses you can get them. And if this pack is working alongside other characters of your level, they'll be happy to receive the same bonuses.

Also, schticks are fun.

Hmm. I wonder if Marshal/Legendary Leader (from Heroes of Battle) would be worth it. I haven't looked over Legendary Leader's effects in a while. I remember dismissing it because it seemed very focused on the mass-combat introduced in that same book, rather than being useful for a smaller party.

EDIT: And, uh, Tribal Warchief or whatever out of Mini's Handbook may be another oft-overlooked option. I seem to recall it having like super-bardic-music, but it only applies to creatures of the same race.

[Epinephrine]

There are some nice feats to suit a pack of wolves too. Things like:

(for you, especially if your followers take rogue levels) Pack Feint: When you successfully use Bluff to ‘Feint in Combat’, the target loses its Dexterity bonus to AC for your next attack and the next attack of any allies adjacent to the foe when you made your Bluff check. To benefit from this Feat, each ally’s next attack and your next attack must be made on or before your next turn.

(for all) Combat Reflexes (pre-req, and handy)

(for followers) Vexing Flanker: +4 when flanking, instead of +2

(for all?) Backstab: You may make an Attack of Opportunity against an opponent that you flank who attacks a target other than you.

(maybe?) Adaptable Flanker: Easier flanking.

A single level in Swordsage by someone to grab Island of Blades would be amazing. Alternatively, picking it up via Martial Stance/Martial Maneuver would work.

I'd go with a Worg Savage Bard/Marshal, and consider heading into Legendary Leader or something.

I'd also ask whether I could get an alternate song progression, since Fascinate/Suggestion may not be most appropriate. Othe racial variants/substitutions exist, so I might consider as possible substitutions:

Healing Hymn (Substitution for Fascinate) - will help healing your pack up, and resting overnight. Cleric will love you for being able to maximise every heal he/she casts.

Phantasmal Song (Normally a gnome substitution level, for suggestion - you can rename it Haunting Howl?) - Requires at least 9 ranks in Perform.
All enemies within 30’ become Shaken (WillNeg, DC is Charisma-based). If an enemy who failed his/her save stays within 30’ for 3 consecutive rounds, that enemy becomes Frightened (no save). The effect lasts as long as you continue to perform –and– the enemy stays within 30’, plus 1 round.

Song of the Heart (feat, adds to you Inspire Courage and other abilities),
Motivate Attack (major aura),
Master of Tactics (minor aura),
and have the spells Inspirational Boost (+1 to courage) and Tactical Precision (2nd level, adds to flanking).

You could easily have up an Inspire Courage (+6 or so? to hit and damage, morale bonus), Master of Tactics (+Cha bonus to damage when flanking, circumstance bonus), Inspire Greatness (+4? to hit, competence bonus), Tactical Precision (+2 to hit and +1d6 on flanking damage, insight bonus).

Combine this with some vexing flankers (+4 to hit on flanks) with Backstab (any time the foe attacks anyone, all those who also threaten get an AoO) and your insane bonuses, and you can pretty much count on slaughtering anything the worgs surround.

Mmotivate Dexterity for when out of combat keeps the wolf pack very sneaky, and allows for a big bonus to your initiative rolls. The 1st level bard spell Shock and Awe can help get actions off before the enemy.

If you are looking at classes for the worgs, some ToB stuff looks handy; Island of Blades (everyone flanks, all the time), Tactics of the Wolf (+half of initiator levels to flanking damage) and a few other stances look like nice additions.

I won't get into cheese like Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation, and all that stuff.

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines. Warchief, though, would essentially let me give STR bonuses onto my pack with War Frenzy, which would increase hit rate and damage. It'd also improve my Leadership. The only downside with Frenzy is it deals 1 hp/HD to affected targets a round.

[ocato]

While I am usually sharply opposed to such a thing, you may want to take the wonderful bard class and water it down with some amount of... Tome of Battle.

Mix Bard with a little Crusader or Warblade for spells, songs (howls!), and white raven maneuvers. Your ability to shrug off damage as a Crusader seems very leader-heroic-alpha male and leading your pack into a song-buffed, hasted charge would probably make for a good snarling pack-tactics attack. Maybe take the feat for extra maneuvers to get a few tiger claw pouncy-deals if you really want.

Now, I feel a bit dirty. Excuse me.

[Epinephrine]

While I am usually sharply opposed to such a thing, you may want to take the wonderful bard class and water it down with some amount of... Tome of Battle.

Mix Bard with a little Crusader or Warblade for spells, songs (howls!), and white raven maneuvers. Your ability to shrug off damage as a Crusader seems very leader-heroic-alpha male and leading your pack into a song-buffed, hasted charge would probably make for a good snarling pack-tactics attack. Maybe take the feat for extra maneuvers to get a few tiger claw pouncy-deals if you really want.

Now, I feel a bit dirty. Excuse me.

I somewhat agree - the Song of the White Raven feat would be pretty nice.

[Prometheus]

Why can't you take a dip in Dragon Shaman and keep Marshall?

Of course, you can always buy a trained animal and have it travel along with you, but it would essentially be a semi-permanent Mirror Image spell since it they would be simple Worg level.

What do you think about Winter Wolfs?

[Fax Celestis]

What do you think about Winter Wolfs?

Worgs are 4 HD +1 LA, while Winter Wolves are 6 HD + 3 LA. Worgs're easier to work with, but I could certainly use a couple in my entourage. My main problem is that Warchief's War Frenzy only applies on "same tribe and race", so it's iffy if it would hit a Winter Wolf from a Worg Warchief.

(that there is a lot of w's).

[Fhaolan]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4300796&postcount=11) may be of help. :smallwink:

*grin* Fax was one of the movers and shakers behind that set of threads. His Wiki likely still has the articles I wrote on Wolves & Worgs in D&D. :smallbiggrin:

I like the Warchief idea, but the stuff from the mini handbook always struck me as a bit... off kilter. Not sure why, really. Just an impression.

[Fax Celestis]

*grin* Fax was one of the movers and shakers behind that set of threads. His Wiki likely still has the articles I wrote on Wolves & Worgs in D&D. :smallbiggrin:

I like the Warchief idea, but the stuff from the mini handbook always struck me as a bit... off kilter. Not sure why, really. Just an impression.

Yeah, it doesn't seem built the same way as the rest of D&D.

[The Glyphstone]

Probably a coincidence, and nothing related to how it's heavily tied to the miniatures game...:smallbiggrin:

[Fax Celestis]

Probably a coincidence, and nothing related to how it's heavily tied to the miniatures game...:smallbiggrin:

Surely not, no! :smalltongue: