Factotum 20, looking for feat suggestions

[jeek]

Taking a Factotum into the World's Largest Dungeon.

My party consists of an Orc Barbarian, a Kobold Sorceror 1/Warlock 4/Eldritch Theurge 10/Warlock +5, a Kobold Cleric 3/Warlock 3/Eldritch Disciple 10/??? 4, a Xeph Favored Soul 20, and me

I'm playing an Underfolk, looking to play Factotum all the way through.

My current plan involves taking Trickery Devotion at level 1, and Knowledge Devotion at level 3.

Trickery Devotion probably isn't the best idea, but I really don't have any idea what I'm doing, trying to set up my feat progression for the lonnnnnng haul.

We're allowed to use PHB1/2, Complete *, and XPH. Other books are on a case-by-case basis, Savage Species and Unearthed Arcana are specifically banned, and the DM said no to Font of Inspiration. I got the OK for the class itself, but the rest of Dungeonscape is iffy.

[monty]

Two warlock theurges? Interesting choice.

Anyway, factotum is pretty much the ultimate jack of all trades, so your feats will probably depend heavily on what exactly you want to do.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

No Font hurts. At low levels Ranged combat is safest for you, but as you get higher, you'll be doing a lot more melee. The Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=791436)(unfinished). I recommend looking at skill tricks which give you a bunch of advantages you can't get otherwise. I'd say take Collector of Stories to really boost Knowledge Devotion.

[jeek]

Anyway, factotum is pretty much the ultimate jack of all trades, so your feats will probably depend heavily on what exactly you want to do.

I'm maxing out Open Locks, Disable Device, Spot, Listen, Knowledge (Nature, Dungeoneering, and Local), Move Silently, and Search. Splitting up Knowledge: Religion and Arcana.. catching those up at later levels.

I guess my goal is to be the ultimate trap monkey, and be passable in combat.

I'm also kind of looking forward to taking the spell that gives me a ton of Unseen Servants. Extend Spell would be handy for that, not sure if I can find any other uses for Extend Spell that are worth it for my limited spellcasting.


I recommend looking at skill tricks which give you a bunch of advantages you can't get otherwise.

I can qualify for Opening Tap, but I don't think I qualify for any other useful skill tricks.


I'd say take Collector of Stories to really boost Knowledge Devotion.

Does that technically work? Seems kind of iffy.

[Eldritch_Ent]

I`d recommend taking quick draw and dumping a knowledge for Iajutsu (OA) if your gm will allow it. Since XPH is specifically allowed, consider grabbing autohypnosis too.

[Eldariel]

Don't bother maxing out the Knowledges. They're horribly expensive to max out, and you can use the /day Factotum Buffs to get great results often enough anyways. Take 1 rank is all you need; Int and Factotum-levels should get you the results you need. Go for the skilltricks instead. Pick the prerequisite skills. Also, go for tripping. You can add your Int to the Str-check. It's awesome. Factotum is an awesome Chain Fighter with max Int and some Str.

[jeek]

Don't bother maxing out the Knowledges. They're horribly expensive to max out, and you can use the /day Factotum Buffs to get great results often enough anyways.

I'm maxing out the knowledges to get full mileage out of the Knowledge Devotion feat.

The higher I get on the knowledge check, the larger the bonus to my attack and damage rolls. 1/day is pretty crap for this purpose, although it could be handy for something I reallllly want to kill.

[Djibriel]

Does that technically work? Seems kind of iffy.

The Knowledge Devotion gives bonuses because you identify monsters. Collector of Stories boosts by +5 when you're trying to identify monsters. There's no RAW on the subject, and your GM may disallow it because it's really a great help for a measly 2 skill points, but you can easily defend it.

[BardicDuelist]

Some of the Soulmeld stuff, like the one that grants Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are really good choices if you can get your DM to approve some Incarnum stuff (shouldn't be too hard as most of it is severely underpowered). There are some good ToB things too, but again, you'd have to get your DM to approve it.

Try taking the skill trick that let's you make touch attacks (I forget which one and don't have my books). It requires a spot check.

Can you use the Retraining rules? If so, grab some of the ranged feats for first level, then retrain them as you get higher level.

Oh, and since, with the no Font, you'll probably have feats to spare, some reserve feats may be a good idea. That way you can spam SLA's.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Some of the Soulmeld stuff, like the one that grants Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are really good choices if you can get your DM to approve some Incarnum stuff (shouldn't be too hard as most of it is severely underpowered). There are some good ToB things too, but again, you'd have to get your DM to approve it.

Try taking the skill trick that let's you make touch attacks (I forget which one and don't have my books). It requires a spot check.

Can you use the Retraining rules? If so, grab some of the ranged feats for first level, then retrain them as you get higher level.

Oh, and since, with the no Font, you'll probably have feats to spare, some reserve feats may be a good idea. That way you can spam SLA's.The Factotum does not qualify for Reserve feats. Sorry.

[Eldariel]

I'm maxing out the knowledges to get full mileage out of the Knowledge Devotion feat.

The higher I get on the knowledge check, the larger the bonus to my attack and damage rolls. 1/day is pretty crap for this purpose, although it could be handy for something I reallllly want to kill.

I failed at reading your post, missing Knowledge Devotion. Ouch. Well, that hurts then. Considered Improved Trip-line?

[Person_Man]

Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) is my personal favorite Factotum build. Tons of interesting combos.

Honestly though, once you get Cunning Brilliance, you won't need feats. You just need a list of Extraordinary class features.

In the mean time, archery is always a good option for a Factotum. Mayshot + Rapidshot + Cunning Surge + Speed Weapon = ridiculous # of arrows.

A familiar or item familiar is always ridiculously helpful.

Martial Study and Martial Stance gets you one Tome of Battle manuver and one (all day) stance/buff. Take Shape Soulmeld (Incarnum) for another one.

[jeek]

In the mean time, archery is always a good option for a Factotum. Manyshot + Rapidshot + Cunning Surge + Speed Weapon = ridiculous # of arrows.

We're going into the World's Largest Dungeon, which I believe is one huge dungeon crawl without ready access to arrows. I'm not sure how useful archery is going to be in an indoor setting.

[Person_Man]

We're going into the World's Largest Dungeon, which I believe is one huge dungeon crawl without ready access to arrows. I'm not sure how useful archery is going to be in an indoor setting.

Arrows are ridiculously cheap. Buy a Bag of Holding (a very good idea for the WLD anyway). If you're really, really worried about running out, buy Hank's Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a).

Ranged weapons are actually more valuable in a dungeon then they are outside. Consider the following marching order during an encounter:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Factotum --- Meatshield --- Enemy --- Enemy --- Enemy
Warlock ---- Cleric ------- Enemy --- Enemy --- Enemy
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

In this example, the Factotum can shoot at any Enemy without fear of reprisal from anything except for ranged weapons and spells. If they were out doors, any Enemy could just walk around the Meatshield and the Cleric. If the Factotum wants to use a normal melee weapon, then he needs to displace the Meatshield or Cleric. If he used a reach weapon, he could only target an Enemy standing in the front line, and not any Enemy Caster who might be standing in the behind their respective Meatsheild(s). If the enemies were standing around a corner, well then there's probably nothing you can do to attack them anyway unless you want to make a Mole (forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-961599) build or want to use an area of effect spell.

Again, its not your only option. Haberdash has a few dozen combos. But archery certainly works well in dungeons for a Factotum.

[jeek]

Arrows are ridiculously cheap. Buy a Bag of Holding (a very good idea for the WLD anyway).

Bags of Holding don't function in the WLD. Neither does Rope Trick. Something about Extradimensional spaces being nonfunctional.


Ranged weapons are actually more valuable in a dungeon then they are outside. Consider the following marching order during an encounter:
..............

Your ranged argument does make sense, I was kind of expecting to be melee along with the Barbarian, with the two Warlocks providing ranged support. No one's going up past Cleric 1. I also spent quite a bit of time trying to talk a guy out of going pure archery as his entire build, so being an archer myself would make me look like even more of an ass.

We're starting at level 1, so I can't really afford anything you've mentioned. I don't know what the economic situation down in the WLD is, but I'm not expecting to find any shops or anything.

[KevLar]

Knowledge Devotion at level 3 is pretty solid. For the Story Collector, you'd better ask your DM first. The skill trick gives a +5 bonus to "identify monsters". The feat doesn't mention identify at all, it gives a bonus to attack and damage even if you roll so low that you can't identify it. They are pretty similar though, so you could get away with it, if the DM is lenient.

If you go archer, you know what to do. If you go tripping, you start with Combat Expertise obviously. Have in mind though that, even with INT to your check, many monsters are just too strong or too big and steady to trip.

Also, consider Keen Intellect. The good part is that it gives Intelligence modifier instead of Wisdom to Will Saves, Heal, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival. The bad part is that it's from Oriental Adventures, so you might not be allowed to take it. 1st Level only.

[Deth Muncher]

Knowledge Devotion at level 3 is pretty solid. For the Story Collector, you'd better ask your DM first. The skill trick gives a +5 bonus to "identify monsters". The feat doesn't mention identify at all, it gives a bonus to attack and damage even if you roll so low that you can't identify it. They are pretty similar though, so you could get away with it, if the DM is lenient.

If you go archer, you know what to do. If you go tripping, you start with Combat Expertise obviously. Have in mind though that, even with INT to your check, many monsters are just too strong or too big and steady to trip.

Also, consider Keen Intellect. The good part is that it gives Intelligence modifier instead of Wisdom to Will Saves, Heal, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival. The bad part is that it's from Oriental Adventures, so you might not be allowed to take it. 1st Level only.

WotC actually updated OA to 3.5. I know this, because I'm using it. Where on the site it is, or if it is still up there, is beyond me.

[Dullyanna]

Why no Font of Inspiration? It's not broken or anything to my knowledge, as long as you don't pick it excessively.

[Eldariel]

WotC actually updated OA to 3.5. I know this, because I'm using it. Where on the site it is, or if it is still up there, is beyond me.

This page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) has some updates, but no Oriental Adventures.
This page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060531a) has errata, but no 3.5 update.

I'm not sure what you're speaking of. Upload it on Rapidshare or something?

[hamishspence]

I know Dragon mag updated feats, classes, monster stats, etc (318). I don't remeber seeing an update on the WOTC site, though I suppose its possible.

[Shades of Gray]

Factotums become insanely good trippers because of Brains over Brawn. Improved Trip, Knockdown, Combat Reflexes, and a +X reach Guisarme, mixed with the spell enlarge person will give you 30ft. reach, and your attacks of oppurtunity will trip your foes.

[Draz74]

I'm maxing out Open Locks, Disable Device, Spot, Listen, Knowledge (Nature, Dungeoneering, and Local), Move Silently, and Search. Splitting up Knowledge: Religion and Arcana.. catching those up at later levels.
No Hide? Also, don't forget to dip just 1 rank into a variety of comes-up-once-in-a-while skills to make yourself much more flexible.


I'm also kind of looking forward to taking the spell that gives me a ton of Unseen Servants. Extend Spell would be handy for that, not sure if I can find any other uses for Extend Spell that are worth it for my limited spellcasting.
Metamagic generally isn't worth it for Factotums.


I can qualify for Opening Tap, but I don't think I qualify for any other useful skill tricks.
Clarity of Vision, Spot the Weak Point, Point it Out?

Besides the archery/tripping ideas people have mentioned ...

You could go for the TWF tree, counting on Knowledge Devotion to make it not suck. Probably with Martial Study / Martial Stance to get 2d6 Sneak Attack damage and a nifty little Shadow Hand trick. Since you probably can't afford good INT, STR, and DEX, you might have to take Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade too. But at this point you have to wonder why you're not just playing a Swordsage with the Educated feat.

Or you could go crit-monkey. Factotums love critical hits, because they can use 1 IP worth of Cunning Insight to add multiples of their INT modifier to damage. Power Attack, a Falchion, and Improved Critical could be interesting. Normally I suggest Weapon Finesse and a Kukri and Improved Critical so you can dump STR, but that works a lot better with a Swashbuckler dip, so you obviously won't be doing it. :smallamused: If you go for a crit-build in general, notice the Sacred Scabbard item in MIC. That's why you want the Improved Critical feat instead of a Keen enhancement. (Doubled threat range and automatic confirmation is pretty cool, even if it's only 3 encounters/day.)

If you want to go semi-Haberdash without the full commitment (and multiclassing), you can buy Least Crystals of Return for only 300 gold a pop to put on all your weapons instead of taking the Quick Draw feat. So you can switch easily to a ranged weapon or whatever in your "golf bag." At the least you should carry around a pick or scythe with one of these crystals, just so you can react instantly if you ever have a helpless foe nearby (e.g. the Sorc or Cleric gets a monster in a Hold spell) -- coup de grace is much nastier when you can add INT x4 to the damage. :smallcool: