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arguskos
2008-12-05, 10:05 AM
So, I've been looking at Occult Slayer (from Complete Warrior), and.... I'm frankly underwhelmed. I mean, I could take levels of FIGHTER and kill casters better than this class ever could (bonus feats for the win).

Is there a better mage-killing PrC out there? Or a good, flavorful, combo of feats I could use? I hear a lot about Mage Slayer (the feat), but don't know where to find it, so... yeah. Thoughts?

Glyde
2008-12-05, 10:36 AM
Mageslayer is in Complete Arcane I do believe. It branches off into things like Pierce Magical Protection, which ignores spell-based bonuses to armor class and stuff which is awesome. Same thing for concealment.


As far as more details go, PMP also dispells the spell granting the armor class. PMC also allows you to automatically pick the right one when fighting a spellcaster with mirror image.

Taking these feats reduces your caster level, so don't take them if you plan on actually being a spellcaster.

Person_Man
2008-12-05, 11:10 AM
It sucks. Skip it.

The best mage killing build is another caster.

But presumably, you want a non-caster for fluff and/or style reasons. My overall suggestion is that you want some combination of Evasion, Mettle, excellent Saves, high touch AC, high hit points, high Initiative, SR, flight, See Invisibility, Pierce Magical Concealment, Dimensional Anchor (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalanchor.htm), and the ability to deal 10ish*ECL points of damage in a single round with a high probability of success. You don't necessarily need all of those things. Basically, you just need to survive the first round, and then kill the caster as quickly as possible. Here are some general suggestions about how to do that:

Hellreaver (Fiendish Codex II): Has the ability to heal itself or a Good ally 10/20/30 (depending on your level) points every round as a Swift Action. Immunity to Fear, Mettle, Dimensional Anchor, a Smite-like ability, and a few other minor abilities. Rogue 2 or Monk 2/Paladin of Freedom 4/Hellreaver X would be a great mage slayer and all around tank.

Justicar (Complete Warrior): It's usually very easy to Grapple a caster. Once Grappled, the Justicar can Hogtie it's enemy. There are various magical shackles which impose Silence and/or use Dimensional Anchor without a Save, and then Coup de Grace them at your leisure.

Tattooed Monk (Complete Warrior): Alter Self for one hour per class level multiple times per day. This can easily be abused (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=176246). +10 (unnamed bonus) to Bluff checks and immunity to Detect Lies, Detect Thoughts, and alignment detection. The ability to add your Cha modifier as a bonus to any stat (including Cha) as an enhancement bonus 1/2 Tattooed Monk levels times per day. Haste. SR 15+class level. Mix in a few levels of Paladin or Hexblade, and you could easily end up with a 26+ Cha at mid levels when you need it. Think about how that would effect your Saves and Smite or whatnot.

Blackguard: A Hexblade/Blackguard gets twice their Cha bonus as a bonus to their Saves vs. magic.

Blinky the Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4666858&postcount=5): Setting Sun Ninja with the right combo can kill anybody.

Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a): Ridiculously good against casters when optimized correctly. Just make sure that you party with a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept and/or casters, so that you can borrow their abilities/spells as needed and be good when you're not fighting casters (the Peter Petrelli build).

arguskos
2008-12-05, 11:17 AM
It sucks. Skip it.

The best mage killing build is another caster.

But presumably, you want a non-caster for fluff and/or style reasons. My overall suggestion is that you want some combination of Evasion, Mettle, excellent Saves, high touch AC, high hit points, high Initiative, SR, flight, See Invisibility, Pierce Magical Concealment, Dimensional Anchor (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalanchor.htm), and the ability to deal 10ish*ECL points of damage in a single round with a high probability of success. You don't necessarily need all of those things. Basically, you just need to survive the first round, and then kill the caster as quickly as possible. Here are some general suggestions about how to do that:

Hellreaver (Fiendish Codex II): Has the ability to heal itself or a Good ally 10/20/30 (depending on your level) points every round as a Swift Action. Immunity to Fear, Mettle, Dimensional Anchor, a Smite-like ability, and a few other minor abilities. Rogue 2 or Monk 2/Paladin of Freedom 4/Hellreaver X would be a great mage slayer and all around tank.

Justicar (Complete Warrior): It's usually very easy to Grapple a caster. Once Grappled, the Justicar can Hogtie it's enemy. There are various magical shackles which impose Silence and/or use Dimensional Anchor without a Save, and then Coup de Grace them at your leisure.

Tattooed Monk (Complete Warrior): Alter Self for one hour per class level multiple times per day. This can easily be abused (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=176246). +10 (unnamed bonus) to Bluff checks and immunity to Detect Lies, Detect Thoughts, and alignment detection. The ability to add your Cha modifier as a bonus to any stat (including Cha) as an enhancement bonus 1/2 Tattooed Monk levels times per day. Haste. SR 15+class level. Mix in a few levels of Paladin or Hexblade, and you could easily end up with a 26+ Cha at mid levels when you need it. Think about how that would effect your Saves and Smite or whatnot.

Blackguard: A Hexblade/Blackguard gets twice their Cha bonus as a bonus to their Saves vs. magic.

Blinky the Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4666858&postcount=5): Setting Sun Ninja with the right combo can kill anybody.

Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a): Ridiculously good against casters when optimized correctly. Just make sure that you party with a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept and/or casters, so that you can borrow their abilities/spells as needed and be good when you're not fighting casters (the Peter Petrelli build).
While all excellent advice, the build is not for me, it's for a friend who wants a melee character who can kill mages. I was going to recommend he skip Occult Slayer, and go with the Mage Slayer line of feats, though I might recommend a few of these ideas as well. Thanks, Person_Man!

I'll take a good long look at Hellreaver. Always did like the look of that class... :smallcool:

Callos_DeTerran
2008-12-05, 11:25 AM
Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a): Ridiculously good against casters when optimized correctly. Just make sure that you party with a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept and/or casters, so that you can borrow their abilities/spells as needed and be good when you're not fighting casters (the Peter Petrelli build).

...I almost don't want to ask, but theres a voice screaming in me deep-down to do just that..What is the Peter Petrelli build?

Keld Denar
2008-12-05, 11:29 AM
I dunno, I don't think Occult Slayer is that bad. Its got full BAB, relatively easy prereqs (Weapon Focus is meh, but a common prereq for other classes like Exotic Weapon Master or Pious Templar, and Improved Init is usually good if you have feats to burn), and the things it gives are passing fair. The spell reflection is kind of questionably written, since the book was published before the advent of Immediate Actions. Does the Occult Slayer actually cast the spell as a free action, and then hope he gets targeted? Or does he just wait till hes targeted and retributively fling it back. Regardless, its good for just about any spell thats not a ray or touch attack. Its really really nice if you're buffed to the teeth by your allies, and get hit by a targeted Greater Dispel Magic. Granted, a fightery type doesn't usually get hit with a lot of the major death attacks like Finger or Destruction or Baleful Polymorph, but if you do, you can bounce all of those back.

Honestly, I think the best feature is the Mind Blank. Its accessable at level 11 if you go straight into it, 4 full levels earlier than you can get Mind Blank from an allied caster. Its still effective at higher levels too, since it makes you immune to Power Words, which generally are no-save kind of nasties.

Viscious Strike is kind of lackluster, but if you have a reach weapon like a Spiked Chain and have a decent movement, an alternative to charging and attacking once (if you don't have pounce) would be to move up and ready an attack. Still defeatable by things like Abrupt Jaunt, but generally not a terrible idea. You'd only get 1 attack that round anyway. Viscous Strike is much better if you can start the encounter Invisible, provided you can get into an ambush position. The DCs to keep the spell are really really tough to make.

All in all, it is kind of lackluster as far as actually killing casters. It does have a decent number of protections the keep you from getting decimated by casters though. I've played a character that used it, and did ok in a party with caster support. Doesn't make you any worse at your usual job (Power Attacking stuff to death), and gives you some relatively cheap defenses.

Here is my Dwarven Urgosh (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15422232&postcount=1) build that uses OC. It blends right in with the rest of the melee PrCs relatively seamlessly and adds a fair bit of robustness to an otherwise weakwilled melee type.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-05, 11:33 AM
...I almost don't want to ask, but theres a voice screaming in me deep-down to do just that..What is the Peter Petrelli build?

Spellthievery + UMD + Wands = I do everything you can.

Telok
2008-12-05, 11:42 AM
A Dex based Warblade can do well too, I prefer xephs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#xephs) for the speed boost.

The key items to this are Boots of Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofSpeed), Wings of Flying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#wingsofFlying), a Third Eye of Concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#concentrate), and a +1 Spell Storing (Dispel Magic) weapon with a 18-20 threat range. Key feats: Improved Critical, Weapon Finesse, and Blindfighting. Key maneuvers: Hearing the Air, Greater Insightful Strike, Moment of Perfect Mind, Sudden Leap, Swooping Dragon Strike, and White Raven Hammer.

The play style is very simple. You have a 90' move when you need it, jump over everything, fly when you need to, have Blindsense 30', you cannot fail your first Will save, and you can stun-dispell-big damage. Just run over and give the caster some smackdown.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-05, 12:18 PM
A Dex based Warblade can do well too, I prefer xephs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#xephs) for the speed boost.

The key items to this are Boots of Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofSpeed), Wings of Flying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#wingsofFlying), a Third Eye of Concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#concentrate), and a +1 Spell Storing (Dispel Magic) weapon with a 18-20 threat range. Key feats: Improved Critical, Weapon Finesse, and Blindfighting. Key maneuvers: Hearing the Air, Greater Insightful Strike, Moment of Perfect Mind, Sudden Leap, Swooping Dragon Strike, and White Raven Hammer.

The play style is very simple. You have a 90' move when you need it, jump over everything, fly when you need to, have Blindsense 30', you cannot fail your first Will save, and you can stun-dispell-big damage. Just run over and give the caster some smackdown.The issue quickly becomes level. The amount of defenses a Wizard can have at ~10th is insane.