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Kobold-Bard
2008-12-05, 11:43 AM
Can the Two Weapon Fighting feat be taken by a sorcerer to allow him to use 2 wands a the same time.

If it can what would be the penalties incurred, other mechanical dilemmas etc?



Thanks in advance.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-05, 11:48 AM
TWF wouldn't apply to wands unless you're smacking people with them (which you can do, thanks to the Wandstrike (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Wandstrike,CAr) feat). Double Wand Wielder (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Double_Wand_Wielder,CAr) is what you're looking for.

Tacoma
2008-12-05, 12:00 PM
Or, according to the rules, there is no reason why you cannot make a wand-shaped trap that fires a Lightning Bolt from the color-coded end when an elf wears it and speaks a certain word. Since you're an elf (example) there is far less chance of someone using it against you.

Then you make a set of custom bracers (maybe enchant them, who cares) that have slots to slide and lock wand-shaped objects into. This way you are wearing say 20 wands per hand. The wands extend beyond your hand, bending outward before pointing firmly forward. This way you can still wield weapons and pick things up but your hands won't be fried.

The sneaky part (well, one of them) is that your trap "wands" don't use charges. They technically don't require an action to activate, except the speaking of a single word. And if you like, you can say that word ten times in a round, so make it a two-syllable word that rolls of the tongue but that you're unlikely to say accidently because it's not a real word.

Have 5 wands of four different types on each hand. This way you have 8 effects to choose from and can get results in 5-blast increments up to 50 blasts per round. Healing Circle would be a fun one.

And the best part is the trap "wand" is typically much less expensive in gold and XP than an identical real wand, plus it has all those game-breaking benefits I just described.

Heck, make a trap shaped like a shirt that casts Heal, Greater Restoration, and True Resurrection on the wearer activated when another being exists within 5 feet. Then keep a mouse in your pocket.

Traps are silly and broken.

Keld Denar
2008-12-05, 12:20 PM
Can the Two Weapon Fighting feat be taken by a sorcerer to allow him to use 2 wands a the same time.

If it can what would be the penalties incurred, other mechanical dilemmas etc?


As Fax noted, Double Wand Wielder is the best way to accomplish this. Probably best on an Artificer base, because you'll be burning through wands like crazy, especially if you apply the feat Metamagic Spell Trigger to the wands you are duel wielding. Get yourself some Metamagic Wand Grips (pistol style!) from Complete Mage, a couple wands of a neat spell like Scorching Ray or Enervation(mean), load em up, and make lots of lazer noises when you do it.

Artificers, transmuting gold into damage at an alarming speed.

FMArthur
2008-12-05, 12:21 PM
It would be a crime not to mention the Rod of Many Wands from the Complete Mage here. You can stick up to 3 wands into it (each is a full-round action, and removal is a move action) and the rod, when activated (as a full-round action), fires off every wand in it and expends a number of charges in each wand equal to the number of wands in the rod. 27000 is steep, but it's also a really awesome combo item.


But Double Wand Wielder might be better depending on how it handles multi-armed users. I think it limits you to two wands, though.

FMArthur
2008-12-05, 12:24 PM
Or, according to the rules, there is no reason why you cannot make a wand-shaped trap that fires a Lightning Bolt from the color-coded end when an elf wears it and speaks a certain word. Since you're an elf (example) there is far less chance of someone using it against you.

Then you make a set of custom bracers (maybe enchant them, who cares) that have slots to slide and lock wand-shaped objects into. This way you are wearing say 20 wands per hand. The wands extend beyond your hand, bending outward before pointing firmly forward. This way you can still wield weapons and pick things up but your hands won't be fried.

The sneaky part (well, one of them) is that your trap "wands" don't use charges. They technically don't require an action to activate, except the speaking of a single word. And if you like, you can say that word ten times in a round, so make it a two-syllable word that rolls of the tongue but that you're unlikely to say accidently because it's not a real word.

Have 5 wands of four different types on each hand. This way you have 8 effects to choose from and can get results in 5-blast increments up to 50 blasts per round. Healing Circle would be a fun one.

And the best part is the trap "wand" is typically much less expensive in gold and XP than an identical real wand, plus it has all those game-breaking benefits I just described.

Heck, make a trap shaped like a shirt that casts Heal, Greater Restoration, and True Resurrection on the wearer activated when another being exists within 5 feet. Then keep a mouse in your pocket.

Traps are silly and broken.

Are you sure traps can be used that way (please point me to a book and a page number so I can read up on traps)? And don't they have to be re-armed?

overduegalaxy
2008-12-05, 02:50 PM
There's always the Cannith Wand Adept PrC from Sharn, City of Towers (IIRC).

Person_Man
2008-12-05, 03:12 PM
The main problem with using wands offensively is that their spell level and DC are fixed. You can pay a ton of money to increase it, but its usually not worth the investment. So you're better off using wands for buffs and utility and other spells that don't rely on DC, like Flame Blade or No Save spells.

Bayar
2008-12-05, 05:03 PM
The main problem with using wands offensively is that their spell level and DC are fixed. You can pay a ton of money to increase it, but its usually not worth the investment. So you're better off using wands for buffs and utility and other spells that don't rely on DC, like Flame Blade or No Save spells.

Seeking ray at low levels, Scorching ray later, right ? And twin them, split ray...

Tacoma
2008-12-05, 05:09 PM
Are you sure traps can be used that way (please point me to a book and a page number so I can read up on traps)? And don't they have to be re-armed?

3.5 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicTraps)

Blame Tippy. He suggested using a line of wagons like a tunnel and having troops run through them setting off the "traps".

It is a "magic device trap". Its trigger is sound. Although admittedly you're being very specific about the sound. It resets "automatically" which it states is "immediately".

Immediate, meaning "with no middle point" or a delay of exactly precisely absolutely zero.

I actually think this is a bad idea. I'm mentioning how broken the trap rules are.

Hal
2008-12-05, 05:33 PM
It would be a crime not to mention the Rod of Many Wands from the Complete Mage here. You can stick up to 3 wands into it (each is a full-round action, and removal is a move action) and the rod, when activated (as a full-round action), fires off every wand in it and expends a number of charges in each wand equal to the number of wands in the rod. 27000 is steep, but it's also a really awesome combo item.


But Double Wand Wielder might be better depending on how it handles multi-armed users. I think it limits you to two wands, though.

Y'know, I've brought that up here before, and got no more than a resounding "meh" out of this crowd. I even asked the question, "What spells would you combine for a great combo?" and all it elicited was hitting enemies with three of whatever the favorite Save-or-Suck or No-Save-and-Suck spells are.

On the original topic, the only downside to dual-wielding wands is that you don't get to do any actual casting. Y'know, no somatic or material components with full hands. This really only seems like it would be a good idea for somebody who can abuse UMD like it was the heroine in a Lifetime Movie-of-the-Week.

Bayar
2008-12-05, 05:40 PM
Y'know, I've brought that up here before, and got no more than a resounding "meh" out of this crowd. I even asked the question, "What spells would you combine for a great combo?" and all it elicited was hitting enemies with three of whatever the favorite Save-or-Suck or No-Save-and-Suck spells are.

On the original topic, the only downside to dual-wielding wands is that you don't get to do any actual casting. Y'know, no somatic or material components with full hands. This really only seems like it would be a good idea for somebody who can abuse UMD like it was the heroine in a Lifetime Movie-of-the-Week.

There is that wand sheeth that lets you draw and store wands as a free action...

Edit: and that feat that lets you attune to a magic item that you use UMD with, so you can use it without rolling...

Tacoma
2008-12-05, 05:41 PM
Rod of Wands:
My answer is that, assuming the effect goes off and then resolved, then the charges are expended, I would stick 3 wands in it that each have just 1 charge left.

SurlySeraph
2008-12-05, 05:41 PM
*trap rule abuse*

Though it doesn't say so specifically, the rules extremely strongly suggest that traps cannot be portable. So no Trap Shirt of Cure Light Wounds or such ridiculousness.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-05, 05:43 PM
On the original topic, the only downside to dual-wielding wands is that you don't get to do any actual casting. Y'know, no somatic or material components with full hands. This really only seems like it would be a good idea for somebody who can abuse UMD like it was the heroine in a Lifetime Movie-of-the-Week.

You could vouch for Somatic Weaponry.


Though it doesn't say so specifically, the rules extremely strongly suggest that traps cannot be portable. So no Trap Shirt of Cure Light Wounds or such ridiculousness.

Uh, Trap Weapons are in DMG-II.

BRC
2008-12-05, 05:48 PM
3.5 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicTraps)

Blame Tippy. He suggested using a line of wagons like a tunnel and having troops run through them setting off the "traps".

It is a "magic device trap". Its trigger is sound. Although admittedly you're being very specific about the sound. It resets "automatically" which it states is "immediately".

Immediate, meaning "with no middle point" or a delay of exactly precisely absolutely zero.

I actually think this is a bad idea. I'm mentioning how broken the trap rules are.
For more brokeness, remember that while using a command word is a standard action (such as with a magic item), Talking is a free action, and if this trap is set off by a certain sound...



Or, even better, a "Trap" of CLW that you put in a boot like a dr scholls thing. It uses a Touch trigger, so every time you touch it, it casts CLW, if it is in your boot, you are constantly touching it.

metagaia
2008-12-05, 05:52 PM
For more brokeness, remember that while using a command word is a standard action (such as with a magic item), Talking is a free action, and if this trap is set off by a certain sound...



Or, even better, a "Trap" of CLW that you put in a boot like a dr scholls thing. It uses a Touch trigger, so every time you touch it, it casts CLW, if it is in your boot, you are constantly touching it.

Heck, you probably even get experiance each time from overcoming the 'encounter'

Hal
2008-12-05, 06:43 PM
You could vouch for Somatic Weaponry.


Perhaps, but Murphy's Law guarantees that trying out this build will result in a DM who says that wands don't count for the purpose of this feat.

Yukitsu
2008-12-05, 07:03 PM
I always wondered what would happen if you tried to duel wand wield rods of many wands, both with metamagic wand wrappings for split ray and twin spell. You'd probably have to re-load as often as a cowboy with a six shooter.

Tacoma
2008-12-05, 07:16 PM
For more brokeness, remember that while using a command word is a standard action (such as with a magic item), Talking is a free action, and if this trap is set off by a certain sound...



Or, even better, a "Trap" of CLW that you put in a boot like a dr scholls thing. It uses a Touch trigger, so every time you touch it, it casts CLW, if it is in your boot, you are constantly touching it.

You could create a trap shaped like an arrowhead. That's right, just the arrowhead. Upon touch it activates and casts Magic Missile at the toucher.

But when you fire it at a dude and it sticks in, while the "arrow" is broken there is no reason the arrowhead is broken. And the victim is now under the effects of an infinite number of Magic Missiles until he removes the arrowhead.

Because, you know, the trap resets immediately.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-12-05, 07:26 PM
Is D&D not easy to break enough that we have to abuse the trap rules? Seriously?

Incidentally, this is why I don't even use the stock rules for actual traps, let alone letting players cheese it like this.

Dual Wand Wielder is the way to go. I'd also allow dual-wielding two Rods of Many Wands if someone wanted to pay the cost for it, but only because it's MOAR DAKKA.

Actually, hm. I'm going to keep this in mind for an artificer character in one of my game...

And a boss.

SurlySeraph
2008-12-05, 08:12 PM
Uh, Trap Weapons are in DMG-II.

...
Seriously?

Thank God I never bought that book. OK, looks like Trap Shirts of Healing and Trap Fireball Machine Guns of Being Like Octople-Wielded Infinitely-Charged Wands are in, then.

FMArthur
2008-12-05, 10:27 PM
My mind is now thoroughly blown. I'm not even sure I want to play D&D anymore with this knowledge of traps.

Yukitsu
2008-12-05, 10:34 PM
It's not so bad until you trap a masterslaying fleshgrinding harpoon.

mabriss lethe
2008-12-06, 12:27 AM
Y'know. I'd never really paid that much attention to trap rules..... now.... just....wow. That's so freaking cracked.

Worira
2008-12-06, 12:33 AM
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/05/19/

Jack_Simth
2008-12-06, 12:40 AM
TWF wouldn't apply to wands unless you're smacking people with them (which you can do, thanks to the Wandstrike (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Wandstrike,CAr) feat). Double Wand Wielder (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Double_Wand_Wielder,CAr) is what you're looking for.
... checking the link, it looks like Wandstrike is a standard action, rather than an attack action, so TWF still wouldn't work out.

quillbreaker
2008-12-06, 01:02 AM
This leads me to a question I've never been completely clear on - can you build a wand with charges per day instead of normal charges?

Nerd-o-rama
2008-12-06, 01:03 AM
Eternal Wands, from Eberron Campaign Setting, which are actually a kind of Wondrous Item.

Yukitsu
2008-12-06, 01:05 AM
Yes. Same price has three charges per day IIRC.

Thurbane
2008-12-06, 01:12 AM
3.5 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicTraps)

Blame Tippy. He suggested using a line of wagons like a tunnel and having troops run through them setting off the "traps".

It is a "magic device trap". Its trigger is sound. Although admittedly you're being very specific about the sound. It resets "automatically" which it states is "immediately".

Immediate, meaning "with no middle point" or a delay of exactly precisely absolutely zero.

I actually think this is a bad idea. I'm mentioning how broken the trap rules are.
Exactly - what next, a breastplate shaped trap that discharges a Cure Critical Wounds every round? :smallconfused:

FMArthur
2008-12-06, 01:16 AM
So you'd basically need a lot of them and Quick Draw to even fight a battle this way, since the rods would effectively become 1/day. Might be worthwhile for an Artificer who over the course of a campaign builds a large arsenal of Eternal Wands, but I can't see anyone else pulling it off because of the costs. :smallconfused:

Kobold-Bard
2008-12-06, 03:37 AM
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/05/19/

Last line of this comic. Now that is what I was going for with this question.

Thanks to everyone who helped with the wand thing, I will definately look into the Artificer and Rods.

Traps I might steer clear from, they seem a bit over he top. I'm just more about enjoying playng a character, than being the ULTIMATE TRAPMASTER OF MEGADEATH!!!!!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fizban
2008-12-06, 07:17 AM
A little crosspost from the recent Iron Man thread, where I attempted to recreate the basic Blastificier from memory. Dual Wand Wielder helps a lot, giving you a third wand firing per round, and Wand Chambers let you get around not having enough hands if you don't feel like quickdrawing.

Feats I would suggest: Craft Wand (free), Dual Wand Wielder, Two Weapon Fighting (prerequiste for Dual Wand Wielder) Wand Mastery, Twin Spell, Split Ray and/or Maximize Spell, maybe whatever feat reduces gp and/or xp costs for crafting. Wand Mastery will get you another missile/damage die with most 1st and 2nd level wands, which isn't too shabby when you combine it with your Metamagic Spell Trigger ability, Metamagic Item Infusion, Dual Wand Wielder, and Metamagic Wand Grips (Complete Mage). You need a fair number of 3rd level infusions to pull off the full combo (2 per fight use use it in), but I'm pretty sure you can make scrolls or use a pearl of power or someething for that. The plan:

Take your two favorite damage wands, generally a minimum level Lesser Orb, Scorching/Seeking Ray, or Orb spell. Use Metamagic Item to get Twin Spell on them for free, aand Metamagic Wand Grip to add Quicken to the one you'll designate as primary. Activate your primary wand once with Split Ray (for a ray) or Maximize (for an Orb) using Metamagic Spell Trigger, your secondary wand once with the same, and then your primary again with the Wand Grip to Quicken it. The end result with:

Lesser Orb:
6 maximized orbs for 13 charges (4+5+4), 48 damage or 96 with Wand Mastery

Seeking Ray:
12 rays for 10 charges (3+4+3), 168 average damage

Seeking Ray gives you a bonus to hit after the first one, so you should only miss on a 1.

Extra bonus: if you drop someone while firing, you just change targets. There's nothing stopping you from using it with other wands either. You can also go crazy using Dual Wand Wielder and grips of quicken to get pretty much any 3 wanded spells you want in one round. I like Ray of Sickness, Launch Item, and Enervation. Ray of Sickness and Enervation will both give at least a -2 penalty to all saves, each, and you can launch either a Tanglefoot Bag for another -2 on reflex saves, of a flask of Atruman Oil (Planar Handbook) for a -4 on fortitude saves. If you really need a will save spell, an extended Fear instead of a Launched itemwill get you 2 guaranteed rounds of shaken so you can hit next turn. With a -6 penalty on their save, anything with a proper save DC is pretty much guaranteed to land after that.

I'm not totally sure about the stacking order for the metamagic, the CharOp boards on gleemax could do it better, but even if you can't stack them all, just Metamagic Item [Twin], Metamagic Wand Grip [Quicken], and Dual Wand Wielder is crazy, since Dual Wand Wielder only costs one extra charge, and you get a third activation. Each activation is already giving you 2 copies from Twin, so you've got 2*3=6 copies of the spell in the wand. If you Split Ray Scorching or Seeking Ray, you get 2 rays instead of 1 for each spell. Depending on how they stack, that's either 2 rays*2 copies*3 activations= 12 rays, or (2copies+1 extra ray)*3 activations= 9 rays, I've assumed the former above.

This all costs a ton of cash, hence why I would usually stick to 1st level wands until you're fighting the BBEG (though I'm not sure, you may have enough cash by 9th/12th level to use 2nd level wands regularly). If your DM for some reason allows you to use the Runestaff with UMD and your infusion slots, you'll be in heaven, since that'll save a ton of money on wondrous items and/or other wands and scrolls you'd need for movement and defense options.

Edit: upon reviewing the Metamagic Wand Grip, I find that it in fact does use extra charges. Saves you a feat though, so that's not shabby. So, adding 4 to the number of charges above, that's:

Lesser Orb:
6 maximized orbs for 17 charges (4+5+8), 48 damage or 96 with Wand Mastery

Seeking Ray:
12 rays for 14 charges (3+4+7), 168 average damage

Still cheap and effective. You can really skip the quickened blast if you don't need it, since Metamagic Item: Twin Spell (two castings) and Dual Wand Wielder have already quadrupled your effects for the price of 3 charges. Split Ray doubles that to x8 for another 4. The worst offender is Metamagic Item, since it doesn't cost you anything and allows any metamagic feat. People don't like the idea of a persistand Wraithstrike at 15th character level (note that monsters hardly need to roll to hit either at that level with their attack bonuses)? An Artificier can do it at 5th. And he can hand the pumped up wand to anyone else to UMD, and the whole party can pass it around and UMD it themselves. That infusion is ridiculous.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-06, 01:32 PM
Also, don't forget Wand Bracers from Dungeonscape. Those suckers are gorgeous.

Tacoma
2008-12-06, 03:33 PM
Actually you can make anything in wand shape. Want a wand-shaped Ioun Stone? Why not? There's no reason why you can't have a wand-shaped magic item that upon use fired a 5d6 Fireball three times per day.

But the item would be a Wondrous Item and require the appropriate item creation feat.

Keld Denar
2008-12-07, 02:20 AM
I'm not totally sure about the stacking order for the metamagic, the CharOp boards on gleemax could do it better, but even if you can't stack them all, just Metamagic Item [Twin], Metamagic Wand Grip [Quicken], and Dual Wand Wielder is crazy, since Dual Wand Wielder only costs one extra charge, and you get a third activation. Each activation is already giving you 2 copies from Twin, so you've got 2*3=6 copies of the spell in the wand. If you Split Ray Scorching or Seeking Ray, you get 2 rays instead of 1 for each spell. Depending on how they stack, that's either 2 rays*2 copies*3 activations= 12 rays, or (2copies+1 extra ray)*3 activations= 9 rays, I've assumed the former above.


The first number is right. 2 rays each, 2 copies of each spell, 3 activations. 12 rays. With Enervation, thats 12d4 negative levels, average 30. I don't care who you are, 30 negative levels HURT. I hope your enemies enjoy spending eternity hungering for flesh, cause thats an Auto-Wight cannon right there.