The best rpg ever [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Comet

2008-12-05, 05:23 PM

Planescape is made of victory. The gameplay is kind of clunky and sometimes borderline frustrating but the story makes up for it. Talking alleys as maternal figures never gets old.

It's also suprising how effective bare text can be when conveying moods (in video games, that is. I know what books are!).
The scene where you watch the memory recordings in the posh club and see Nameless One's "girlfriend" going through horrible things was tight. It was nothing but text and music but it worked.

The whole true Name and combining with your past selves bit near the end was interesting too and upped the powerlevel enough for the final battle. And any game where you can talk your way through the final boss (in several different ways, no less) gets my approval immediately.

I think fantasy is better the weirder it gets. And Torment gets pretty weird. :smallbiggrin:

Project_Mayhem

2008-12-05, 05:28 PM

Conjob, is your avatar Ignus per chance?

Pronounceable

2008-12-05, 05:30 PM

-Yes screw Planescape :) Play gothic!

This is blasphemy! This is madness!
...

And obviously best part of the game is talking Vhailor to death, followed by strangling the paranoid incarnation.

Player_Zero

2008-12-05, 05:36 PM

Best written RPG ever.
Some elements of actual gameplay were lacking, but really, who the hell cares when the story is that good?

The best RPG ever. There cannot be two skies.

Comet

2008-12-05, 05:42 PM

Conjob, is your avatar Ignus per chance?
It's inspired by him, yes. Can you tell Ignus is one of my favourite characters in the game?

And to continue on a similar note, the best part of the game is discovering all the things your past incarnations have done and accomplished. Ignus is on of these things and a pretty tragic character because of that. Vhailor too, in a way. Except that he ain't tragic, he's more like terror incarnate.

Player_Zero

2008-12-05, 05:45 PM

So, if I call you supplicant then will you try to kill everyone?

Tengu_temp

2008-12-05, 08:27 PM

Ignus and Vhailor are my two least favorite, most shallow characters in Planescape: Torment. They're the embodiments of Chaotic Stupid and Lawful Stupid, respectively.

Yeah, this game is the best RPG ever. Some come close, but the king is still undisputed.

Thant

2008-12-05, 08:45 PM

No, Planescape gets the second place in the best rpg ever award competition. #1 is the Fallout series (1, 2 + Tactics, Van Buren and Tactics 2):smallwink: *runs for cover*

p.s.- did you know that BS planned to make Planescape 2? I think it would be as awesome as much as any of their games that they weren't allowed to finish:smallsmile:

Ozymandias

2008-12-05, 09:01 PM

I actually just got this, too. I like everything but the combat, so far (I'm just out of the morgue). The graphics are surprisingly ... good. It has actually aged extremely well. The overall interface is very poor, though.

ShneekeyTheLost

2008-12-05, 09:12 PM

IMO Secret of Mana holds the title of 'Best RPG EVER', with Chrono Trigger and FF VI tied for 2nd.

Moonshadow

2008-12-05, 09:30 PM

IMO Secret of Mana holds the title of 'Best RPG EVER', with Chrono Trigger and FF VI tied for 2nd.

:smallbiggrin: Someone with the same opinion as I! You sir, are made of awesome and win.

Cubey

2008-12-06, 01:44 AM

No, Planescape gets the second place in the best rpg ever award competition. #1 is the Fallout series

Is that really a fair competition? There is only one Planescape: Torment and many Fallout games. If anything, they will beat Torment with sheer length of good gameplay... especially since PS:T is deceptively short as a game.

And I think you missed Fallout 3 from the list. It's a part of the series too, even if not everyone likes it!

Oh yeah, and PS:T beats everything in my book. This coming from a guy who usually favours jRPGs, and Planescape: Torment is not one of them. It still beats them all, fair and square.

RPGuru1331

2008-12-06, 02:05 AM

IMO Secret of Mana holds the title of 'Best RPG EVER', with Chrono Trigger and FF VI tied for 2nd.

I'm going to have to support Mana series as best.

You can play them with friends, and they're good. MMOs do the former, other games do the former. That's pretty much the only combined package though.

factotum

2008-12-06, 03:22 AM

Oh yeah, and PS:T beats everything in my book. This coming from a guy who usually favours jRPGs, and Planescape: Torment is not one of them. It still beats them all, fair and square.

Planescape: Torment always struck me as borrowing heavily from the JRPG linear storytelling style of game, though--let's face it, no matter what choices you made through the game, you were still taking the same path and doing mostly the same quests. Of course, it's one of the few games I've ever played where the story was simply so good that you didn't care how linear the gameplay was!

The Fallout games are on entirely the other end of the scale--go where you like and do what you want; the things you do will actually change how the game plays later on. Thus, to my mind, PS:T and Fallout 2 are both top of the tree as far as RPGs go, but for entirely different reasons!

Comet

2008-12-06, 05:11 AM

Ignus and Vhailor are my two least favorite, most shallow characters in Planescape: Torment. They're the embodiments of Chaotic Stupid and Lawful Stupid, respectively.
I thought that was the whole point with them. They're one dimensional and broken. They were made to be that way, one by the Nameless One and the other because... well, he's a walking, talking piece of armour.
I suppose it would be better to call Ignus one of my favourite things in the game because he's really not much of a character. But the backstory tells us that he was once and the way he turned out tells something about the protagonists strenght. Grim and weird, which I like.

As far as likeable personalities go, I always favoured Dak'kon and Falls-from-Grace. They're wise and at the same time totally alien. And Dak'kon wields a laser sword! :smalltongue:
Honestly, the game is full of brilliant characters.

Tengu_temp

2008-12-06, 08:23 AM

Of course that's the whole point. It doesn't make me like them more, though. Other characters are much more fun, and coincidentally there's just enough of them to make a single group that you'll never have to remove people from.

Also, Seiken Densetsu 3 > Secret of Mana.

Player_Zero

2008-12-06, 09:48 AM

Planescape: Torment always struck me as borrowing heavily from the JRPG linear storytelling style of game, though--let's face it, no matter what choices you made through the game, you were still taking the same path and doing mostly the same quests. Of course, it's one of the few games I've ever played where the story was simply so good that you didn't care how linear the gameplay was!

You have quite a lot of choice when it comes to quests. You might as well say every RPG is borrowing from linear storytelling because they tell stories. Oblivion is non-linear, yes? But most every quest you do will end in the same way, sometimes will a little choice at the end.

Morty

2008-12-06, 10:11 AM

Am I the only one who considers "jRPG vs. Western RPG" distinction meaningless? Then again, I've never played any jRPG.
Anyway. Comparing Gothic to Torment is not only a blasphemy, but also makes no sense, as the point of those two games in entirely different. Gothic is supposed to have an open-ended, living world -whether it accomplishes it or not is a discussion for another time- and Torment is focused on the story.
The problem with Vhailor is that you get him late in the game, when you have got a party already, and you might not have a room for him. It's not certain though, because no everyone likes Ignus and you're not guaranteed to find Nordom. That, and that he's killing everyone you meet.
And I'd just like to add that music and voice-acting in Torment are about as masterful as everything else.

2008-12-06, 10:35 AM

Planescape: Torment always struck me as borrowing heavily from the JRPG linear storytelling style of game, though--let's face it, no matter what choices you made through the game, you were still taking the same path and doing mostly the same questsAlmost like a Western adventure game... :smallwink:

Anyways I do like Ingus. If only because Reekwind's telling of his origin, and that of the Alley of Dangerous Angles, remains my favourite computer game moment

factotum

2008-12-06, 01:09 PM

You have quite a lot of choice when it comes to quests. You might as well say every RPG is borrowing from linear storytelling because they tell stories. Oblivion is non-linear, yes? But most every quest you do will end in the same way, sometimes will a little choice at the end.

Oblivion doesn't even belong in the footnotes of a thread about the best RPGs ever, but that's by the by. Anyway, PS:T *is* a great deal more linear than most WRPGs--think about it for a minute; you couldn't even move on to the next area in PS:T until you'd completed the appropriate plot-specific quest, whereas in Oblivion (spit) (and its greatly superior predecessor Morrowind, and the Might and Magic series, etc) you could literally go anywhere you wanted. You might die very quickly when you got there if you weren't high enough level, but level was generally the only thing stopping you--there wasn't an intelligent alley that had to be placated before it would let you through, just as one example.

Emperor Tippy

2008-12-06, 02:19 PM

Elder Scrolls: Morrowind and Arcanum beat Planescape: Torment as far as I'm concerned.

Comet

2008-12-06, 02:33 PM

Arcanum would be the best RPG ever, if it wasn't buggy beyond belief. I simply couldn't play it (note that this was way back when, before all those fanmade patches).

Morrowind, too, requires fanmade content to be enjoyable. The game as-is is pretty dull, I think.

That's what I enjoy about Planescape as a game. It's a complete, ready experience that you don't have to spend hours tweaking to enjoy.

warty goblin

2008-12-06, 02:37 PM

Any list that does not include Mass Effect and The Witcher has something deeply wrong with it. Two somethings actually.

Emperor Tippy

2008-12-06, 02:44 PM

Arcanum would be the best RPG ever, if it wasn't buggy beyond belief. I simply couldn't play it (note that this was way back when, before all those fanmade patches).
I've never played it without all of the official patches and haven't ever really had any bug problems but that could just be sheer luck. P:T gave me no end of trouble though, granted that might have been the computer I was running it on.

Morrowind, too, requires fanmade content to be enjoyable. The game as-is is pretty dull, I think.
*shrug*
I liked it without any fanmade content but the mod's are one thing that keeps it playable. Very few games let you completely rebuild the world if you are so inclined.

That's what I enjoy about Planescape as a game. It's a complete, ready experience that you don't have to spend hours tweaking to enjoy.
*shrug*
I had to spend hours getting it to work, unlike Arcanum or Morrowind. So it could just be that we had different experiences.

Fri

2008-12-06, 04:08 PM

I've said it twice, and I'll say it again. Arcanum is worth it just for The Top Hat That Deflect Bullet

Everytime I felt frustated because of the imbalance or the bug, I look at my equipment screen and see The Top Hat That Deflect Bullet. Suddenly everything became bearable.

It's cool, Seriously, if coolness is the only thing that made an RPG, arcanum would be one of the best rpg ever produced.

Sadly, it's buggier than your average victorian era bug riddled house, and the interface is clunkier than charles babbage' adding machine. And no matter what the fluff said, the magic vs tech duality is as imbalanced as those european conqueror vs the natives inlander.

Dogmantra

2008-12-06, 06:25 PM

Elder Scrolls: Morrowind
Wow... Tippy, is there anything about you that can't be falted? :smalltongue:

Cubey

2008-12-06, 06:38 PM

Inhuman Bot

2008-12-06, 06:44 PM

Any list that does include Mass Effect and The Witcher has something deeply wrong with it. Two somethings actually.

Fixed it for you.

Surrealistik

2008-12-06, 06:58 PM

Fallout. Planescape Torment comes close.

Comet

2008-12-06, 07:00 PM

The Witcher is brilliant, at least now that we have the enhanced edition. It really does the "choose your path" thing well.
Mass Effect is not bad, just kinda narrow compared to the hype and the other legendary games it is forced to compete with.

Also, I think Mask of the Betrayer (the NWN2 expansion) had a very good story going for it. There were some scenes that felt very, very close to the quality that is Planescape. Am I the only one that thinks so? Is MotB well written or am I just desperate to find some quality fantasy in my videogames?

warty goblin

2008-12-06, 07:03 PM

Arcanum: dull, ugly, easy to break.
Morrowind: dull, easy to break.
Witcher: dull.

Are we seeing a pattern here yet?
I can make my opinions sound like facts just like the other people here!

Okay, my opinions about these titles aren't so negative, actually (except for Arcanum. It could be brilliant but I think the potential was wasted and we got something mediocre at best). They just have that undesired something that makes me not really interested in them. I play them and have fun, but don't feel the desire to sit again at the computer and launch the title - I'd rather do something else.

I never felt like that when playing Planescape: Torment.
What's dull about the Witcher? I've not played all the way through it yet, but that's mostly due to it being rather difficult and best enjoyed in major blocks of time. Honestly it comes off to me as one of the more successful marriages of gameplay and story in recent memory if you take the time to poke around. Plus, and this is huge for me, it doesn't make me fight something every fifteen seconds and actually has a clue about pacing. Even better the combat tends to be pretty intuitive when it does occur, and never degenerates into the hyperactive bastard offspring of an RTS and a Whack-a-Mole game that some RPGs do.

edit:

The Witcher is brilliant, at least now that we have the enhanced edition. It really does the "choose your path" thing well.
Mass Effect is not bad, just kinda narrow compared to the hype and the other legendary games it is forced to compete with.

Also, I think Mask of the Betrayer (the NWN2 expansion) had a very good story going for it. There were some scenes that felt very, very close to the quality that is Planescape. Am I the only one that thinks so? Is MotB well written or am I just desperate to find some quality fantasy in my videogames?

Agreed on the first point, it feels like playing a book in a good way, they 'you are this character, here are your choices' way, not in the 'the author is going to ride your ass like the last lifeboat on the Titanic so hope you like spur-marks' way some games do.

Personally I like Mass Effect since I consider Virmire to be the single greatest level ever put in a game due to epicness and the number of really hard choices available, rivaled only by Onslaught from Crysis because of the simply insane number of ways there are to play through that scenario. Also I have a weakness for space marines, and the combat was pretty fun.

Can't say on MoTB, since I pretty much realized that NWN 2 had so many 'features' I hated that I am probably never gonna beat the game, and I have a strict 'no expansions for games you didn't like well enough to complete' policy. Also I'm becoming increasingly less fond of controlling an entire party in RPGs, for the simple reason that I am trying to identify with one person, aka my character, and having to deal with managing the ability usage of three other people does not really do that for me. It turns the game into a really smallscale finicky RTS, a genre where I am generally encouraged to think of my units as disposable if their horrible death furthers my overall goal, not as bosom buddies.

Cubey

2008-12-06, 07:35 PM

What I don't like in the Witcher? The prologue sucked and was mostly about HnS only, but we all know that and it was to get used to the interface anyway, so I'll ignore that. The first act was, however, rather boring. Geralt just plays the errand boy for several apathetic villagers, performing tasks that I do know are not inconsequential, but nevertheless have little to do with the main plot and consist of killing monsters and taking their items.

The second act is slightly better about it, because there is the main questline in addition to blatant sub-quests, but the loading times drived me beyond the wall of disinterest. Now that we have the patch, maybe I'll try it again.

But what hurted me most is that the game has little of Sapkowski's wit which was present in his writing style. It also tries too hard to be edgy and "mature" (which means swearing and sex) just like him - but he did it better.

As I said in the post above. Not a bad game, but it didn't interest me enough to finish it.

Philistine

2008-12-06, 07:46 PM

Also, I think Mask of the Betrayer (the NWN2 expansion) had a very good story going for it. There were some scenes that felt very, very close to the quality that is Planescape. Am I the only one that thinks so? Is MotB well written or am I just desperate to find some quality fantasy in my videogames?

You're not alone in that. I remember thinking, the first time I played through MotB, that it was the closest thing I'd seen to PS:T since... PS:T. The two key improvements MotB showed over the NWN2 OC were a more focused and involving story, and a smaller number of joinable NPCs which allowed each of them to be more fully developed.

warty goblin

2008-12-06, 07:49 PM

Really do try the Expanded Edition. I never played the game pre-EE, but the loading times are really quite bearable. It takes a while to load up a level to begin with, but after that they are pretty snappy, and I in no way have a godlike gaming rig.

The first act did lag a bit I agree, although let's face it, pretty much all RPG quests amount to 'go here, kill that' go there, tell somebody about, collect reward' and at least my doing so made sense in the context of the world for a change. I also thought that they did a really masterful job of building towards a climax at the end. My only major complaint was the timing of the fight with the Beast, since it basically assured that I would get killed off before I managed to kill it, and so have to sit through that honking great cutscene again. It was a good cutscene, but I object to being forced to watch it more than once.

As for the sex/profanity, I actually found them to be pretty well done. People swear in real life, people swear in the game. I'm not sure how exactly one can do swearing 'appropriately' since the whole point is that it ain't appropriate, but the Witcher's swearing was more or less how people swear. Same with the frequent casual sex. Good looking charismatic nice guys generally don't have that much problem getting laid a lot if they want to(or so I am told), same with the game. There's a lot of sex you can have, but I don't think any of it is actually required, and it's a welcome relief from Bioware's take, which can be boiled down to 'read a small book's worth of dialog, then watch a twenty second cutscene with the same erotic energy as a tossed salad with light dressing.'

Also, in what way is fighting a bunch of man-eating plants in a cabbage patch at midnight while drunk off of your rocks not hilarious?

2008-12-06, 08:11 PM

You're not alone in that. I remember thinking, the first time I played through MotB, that it was the closest thing I'd seen to PS:T since... PS:T. The two key improvements MotB showed over the NWN2 OC were a more focused and involving story, and a smaller number of joinable NPCs which allowed each of them to be more fully developed.The biggest change that I found between NWN2 and MotB was simply the whole atmosphere/environment. NWN was your bog standard 'save the world' schtik but with the expansion we get a far darker tale of personal redemption, past sins, eternal torment, etc etc. Remind you of anything? Its as if Chris Avallone followed the generic RPG script for the first game before suddenly remembering that he was capable of giving a Modron character!

Incidentally I only found out wile writing this post that Obsidion has a new RPG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Protocol) due next year!

LurkerInPlayground

2008-12-06, 09:06 PM

The biggest change that I found between NWN2 and MotB was simply the whole atmosphere/environment. NWN was your bog standard 'save the world' schtik but with the expansion we get a far darker tale of personal redemption, past sins, eternal torment, etc etc. Remind you of anything? Its as if Chris Avallone followed the generic RPG script for the first game before suddenly remembering that he was capable of giving a Modron character!

Incidentally I only found out wile writing this post that Obsidion has a new RPG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Protocol) due next year!
KOTOR2 was essentially the "far darker tale of personal redemption, past sins, eternal torment, etc. etc." The real regrettable fact of the matter is that Obsidian dropped the ball on a Chris Avellone tale. The hints of brilliance are there, just most of it is buried under broken gameplay and lots of excised material. The influence system also made it hard to unlock your party's backstory.

It's Planescape: Torment in space with lightsabers and the Force. Kreia is essentially Ravel really. The Force is a pre-packaged "freewill versus predestination" plot element. The Exile is essentially The Nameless One, sans amnesia, but no less curious about why he was cut off from the Force and what led up to his exile from the Jedi Order. Even your party members are essentially mental cases attracted to the protagonist like moths to a flame by the power of destiny. . .err. . .the Force.

I played the leaked Restoration Project patch, just to revisit the game. People praise KOTOR1 but I can't really see it, since it plays like a dumbed-down Baldur's Gate game with some annoying Star Wars cliches. KOTOR2 just beats KOTOR1, flawed as it is, simply because the former actually took a crack at a flipping the Star Wars morality on its head.

As a side note: Avellone is kind of a cynic. You'll never see a BioWare type of romance in his games simply because he can't believe in them without something horrible happening or without it turning into a forlorn unrequited sort of romance.

Pronounceable

2008-12-06, 10:57 PM

LurkerInPlayground

2008-12-06, 11:11 PM

Arcanum is wrong. I don't know how, or why, but it's wrong. The fact that I can't ever play past Tarant without ANY discernible reason whatsoever means the game is wrong in some way.

And KotoR2'd be 2nd best RPG of all time if it wasn't a beta. Maybe could've been the one to replace Torment from the throne. As it is, it falls behind Fallout and BG2 to 4th greatest RPG ever.

If anyone doesn't believe how great KotoR2 would be if it was completed, read the collosal+ Let's Play here (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2472531). It really is collosal+ btw, 67 pages. Believe that it's worth it.
Eh, if KOTOR2 actually had an action-RPG gameplay blend of Mass Effect and Jade Empire and had a complete story written by Chris Avellone it would have been a perfect storm.

It wouldn't have been revolutionary or anything, but it would certainly make for a great story interspersed with combat sequences that wasn't broken or flat. And it still would have stood a decent chance at eclipsing Planescape: Torment.

Man, that's starting to sound really good. If only Avellone could go back and retool the game from bottom-up using today's technology. Even without KOTOR1 to preface the game, it makes for a great stand alone story.

warty goblin

2008-12-06, 11:31 PM

Eh, if KOTOR2 actually had an action-RPG gameplay blend of Mass Effect and Jade Empire and had a complete story written by Chris Avellone it would have been a perfect storm.

It wouldn't have been revolutionary or anything, but it would certainly make for a great story interspersed with combat sequences that wasn't broken or flat. And it still would have stood a decent chance at eclipsing Planescape: Torment.

Man, that's starting to sound really good. If only Avellone could go back and retool the game from bottom-up using today's technology. Even without KOTOR1 to preface the game, it makes for a great stand alone story.

Exactly. I never played KoTOR II because I never beat 1 because the gameplay made me want to swallow my mouse. Story and setting were great, I just couldn't stand the constant and amazingly dull combat

LurkerInPlayground

2008-12-07, 12:34 AM

Exactly. I never played KoTOR II because I never beat 1 because the gameplay made me want to swallow my mouse. Story and setting were great, I just couldn't stand the constant and amazingly dull combat
Yeah, the non-Jedi classes don't get a whole lot of love.

Then your character gets Jedi levels right after Taris, so that at least gives you Force abilities to play with for the rest of KOTOR 1.

Tekar

2008-12-07, 04:52 AM

KOTOR2 was essentially the "far darker tale of personal redemption, past sins, eternal torment, etc. etc." The real regrettable fact of the matter is that Obsidian dropped the ball on a Chris Avellone tale. The hints of brilliance are there, just most of it is buried under broken gameplay and lots of excised material. The influence system also made it hard to unlock your party's backstory.

It's Planescape: Torment in space with lightsabers and the Force. Kreia is essentially Ravel really. The Force is a pre-packaged "freewill versus predestination" plot element. The Exile is essentially The Nameless One, sans amnesia, but no less curious about why he was cut off from the Force and what led up to his exile from the Jedi Order. Even your party members are essentially mental cases attracted to the protagonist like moths to a flame by the power of destiny. . .err. . .the Force.

I played the leaked Restoration Project patch, just to revisit the game. People praise KOTOR1 but I can't really see it, since it plays like a dumbed-down Baldur's Gate game with some annoying Star Wars cliches. KOTOR2 just beats KOTOR1, flawed as it is, simply because the former actually took a crack at a flipping the Star Wars morality on its head.

As a side note: Avellone is kind of a cynic. You'll never see a BioWare type of romance in his games simply because he can't believe in them without something horrible happening or without it turning into a forlorn unrequited sort of romance.

I don't agree, KotOR2 had some big disadvantages to PS:T in my opinion. First of all I think the world and atmosphere in KotOR are infinitely more bland than the brilliant way the Planescape setting is depicted in Torment. Second the story of KotOr2 never quite managed to grip me. Could be just because I'm older now but I didn't really care for my, and even much less for the other, characters in the game. While in Torment I really just wanted to prove how sorry I was for Deionarra.

LurkerInPlayground

2008-12-07, 05:19 AM

I don't agree, KotOR2 had some big disadvantages to PS:T in my opinion. First of all I think the world and atmosphere in KotOR are infinitely more bland than the brilliant way the Planescape setting is depicted in Torment. Second the story of KotOr2 never quite managed to grip me. Could be just because I'm older now but I didn't really care for my, and even much less for the other, characters in the game. While in Torment I really just wanted to prove how sorry I was for Deionarra.
Meh, I can't convince you to like it. And I'll just assume that you disagree with my liking it, and not that it resembles PS:T.

In any case, I was sold on the idea of a Jedi suffering post-traumatic stress syndrome that just so happened to cause a gaping wound in the Force and had to go on a quest to discover what is happening to him and why.

Then you get a Ravel-like crone, promoted to villain status, who isn't really your typical "Sith Lord," as she's not really even interested in destroying the Jedi Order so much as she's set on showing them their own mistakes. Oh, that and killing the Force, which is more or less equivalent to Ravel trying to set the Lady of Pain "free."

But again, if you're not sold, you're not sold.

Comet

2008-12-07, 06:25 AM

I didn't get KotoR II at all when I first played it. There was just too much everything and it all felt kinda random.

Then, when I reinstalled it a couple of years later, I basically told myself "okay, now I'm going to build the most epic character ever with telekinetic powers and I am going to enjoy this game".

It worked. I really immersed myself into the gameplay and found out that there were indeed some flashes of brilliance in there. The whole metaphysical level of the story and the force and the nature of the enemies you are facing and everything. Good stuff. The dialogue options were all kind of ace, too. They allowed me to choose the colour of my old lightsaber! :smallbiggrin:

Kotor II felt like a good game spoilt by too much content, complete with a couple of notches in quality.
Mass Effect felt like a brilliant game spoilt by too little content, complete with a couple of notches in quality.
Both I enjoyed but they both could've been better. Well, of course they could've.

Also, here's another vote for the Witcher's enhanced edition. It really makes it a completely different game. Or at least lots and lots better.

Tengu_temp

2008-12-07, 07:35 AM

As for the sex/profanity, I actually found them to be pretty well done. People swear in real life, people swear in the game. I'm not sure how exactly one can do swearing 'appropriately' since the whole point is that it ain't appropriate, but the Witcher's swearing was more or less how people swear. Same with the frequent casual sex. Good looking charismatic nice guys generally don't have that much problem getting laid a lot if they want to(or so I am told), same with the game. There's a lot of sex you can have, but I don't think any of it is actually required, and it's a welcome relief from Bioware's take, which can be boiled down to 'read a small book's worth of dialog, then watch a twenty second cutscene with the same erotic energy as a tossed salad with light dressing.'

What Cubey meant (I think) is: compare the way the game handles sex, swearing and dark humour, with the way Sapkowski's books (if you can get your hands on them) do so. The books are much better and wittier in that regard, while the game includes those elements just to be dark and edgy, and it ends up disappointing for people who have read the books.

Cespenar

2008-12-07, 07:36 AM

Wow. Planescape and KotOR2 are being compared for being the best rpg ever. Things have really picked up since I last checked these kinds of threads. I was expecting more of an Oblivion/Fallout 3 front, opposed by a Final Fantasy/what-have-you front. I'm impressed.

Oregano

2008-12-07, 07:49 AM

Tengu_temp

2008-12-07, 07:59 AM

Final Fantasy 6 and 7 are awesome games, but Planescape: Torment is better. If only a bit.

Project_Mayhem

2008-12-07, 08:02 AM

So as people are now listing, my top 5 favorite rpgs *probably* goes something like this. *Probably*, because I like them all so much theres not much difference

Planescape: Torment - because its awesome, full stop.
Baldurs Gate 1&2 (as far as I'm concerned its one long game) - The first rpgs I played, and I still love em'
Neverwinter Nights 1 and expansions - I know its not that good, but it was my first 3.5 experience, and I spent most of my first year degree playing it.
Chrono Trigger - absolutely awesome, but not as good plotwise as P:T, and not as customisable as BG/NWN, and more linear. Still the best jrpg
FF 6 - Loses out slightly to Chrono Trigger, but still awesome.

Just missing the grade are the Fallouts, the rest of FF, the Paper Marios, Mario Rpg, and the computer version of the Fabled Lands books.

I havn't played Arcanum, but it sounds good.

Morty

2008-12-07, 08:34 AM

KoToR II would be great, if they ever managed to finish the game. As it is, it really feels full of holes, untied loose ends and things that don't make much sense. It's also so easy that I don't remember a fight that didn't feel like a walk in the park. Maybe except the final one.
Arcanum would be great, too, if the combat wasn't so woefully tragic and if it was better balanced. As it is, it's a good game, but not deservig a place on any "best RPGs ever" list.
Baldur's Gate series are great hack'n'slashes with good plot and decent roleplaying now and then, but in terms of depth and storyline Torment leaves it way behind.
Witcher is great, but it doesn't get even close to Torment. I felt little desire to replay it, and I did so only to see what do you get for making different choices. And siding with the Order makes Geralt look like complete S.O.B and also a moron. The enchanced edition helps of course, because now I no longer need a book to survive the loading times. Still, it's better than most "cRPGs" nowadays. And the references to the books are fun.

Cespenar

2008-12-07, 09:07 AM

What does everyone think of Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines? That's a good RPG.

I agree, it was good. Though the second half of the game seemed to be wrapped up a bit hastily, I think. But the atmosphere was great.

Morty

2008-12-07, 09:20 AM

I agree, it was good. Though the second half of the game seemed to be wrapped up a bit hastily, I think. But the atmosphere was great.

I agree. What really frustrated me though, is that I invested quite a bit in Persuasion, but later in the game there were fewer and fewer occasions to use it. The combat was a bit too chaotic, too.

Eldan

2008-12-07, 09:39 AM

*Glances at map of the multiverse glued to his door, then over to the lady of pain symbol on his desk*

Yes, I liked Planescape Torment. Absolutely best RPG around. Second place would probably go to Morrowind for good athmosphere. The "Hordes of the Underdark"-quest for NWN1 was also quite good, but lacking in graphics (they just seemed sterile to me, compared to morrowind or PS:T) and a few other things.

LurkerInPlayground

2008-12-07, 03:15 PM

The only reason people haven't suggested Final Fantasy VI/VII/IV/IX etc. as the best is because they know it'd start a massive argument and they'd be flamed ridiculously(not necessarily by anyone here).

What does everyone think of Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines? That's a good RPG.
Well, I liked Final Fantasy Tactics.

The original one for the PS-One. Not the doofy bastard children for the DS.

I would also hazard saying that PS:T is stronger in writing than the Baldur's Gate series, but I feel the gameplay was still better for the Baldur's Gate games. PS:T combat is bare-bones kind of stuff compared to Baldur's Gate, as it's not even really the game's focus.

Eldan

2008-12-07, 03:27 PM

Yes, but you know what? Torment has a button for running. I tried to play Baldur's gate again a few days ago and that slow walking speed seriously got on my nerves.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom

2008-12-07, 04:54 PM

I'm definitely going to have to disagree with you on this one. Far and away, the best one ever created is Baldurs Gate 2.

factotum

2008-12-07, 05:01 PM

Yes, but you know what? Torment has a button for running. I tried to play Baldur's gate again a few days ago and that slow walking speed seriously got on my nerves.

Couldn't you SHIFT+click to run in BG? Or was it a double-click? Been a long time since I played it, but I know it was possible to run without too much effort. Of course, that occasionally led to some quirks--the game was based heavily on D&D rules, which meant a successful "to hit" roll meant whatever attack had just been launched WOULD hit you no matter what. I remember running one of my characters all the way up the map to try and avoid a missile attack which had just been launched at him, only to find that the arrow (or whatever it was) tracked him all the way and hit him anyway...

Pronounceable

2008-12-07, 08:54 PM

No, running was impossible.

And arrows and spells could be avoided after hit roll by leaving an area.

LurkerInPlayground

2008-12-08, 12:48 AM

No, running was impossible.

And arrows and spells could be avoided after hit roll by leaving an area.
I just tended to cast Haste.

First off, the ten-minute day is every bit as applicable in the Baldur's Gate series as it is in the 3e tabletop D&D.

Secondly, I played the game often enough that I more or less know where all the significant encounters were likely to be. So I could usually run to the next encounter and still have duration leftover for the fight.

Aricandor

2008-12-08, 09:35 AM

Judging from what I spent the most hours on, it's probably a toss up between Baldur's Gate 2, KotOR, Morrowind and NWN. I guess that's mostly just what I felt had the most replay value though.
I couldn't honestly decide between those, BG1, Fallout 1/2, Torment and even the sequels by Obsidian.

Ebonsword

2008-12-08, 10:15 AM

Yes, but you know what? Torment has a button for running. I tried to play Baldur's gate again a few days ago and that slow walking speed seriously got on my nerves.

There is an option to increase the frames per second of the Baldur's Gate games. I don't recall if there's a file you need to modify or if it's just buried in a menu somewhere.

At any rate, I always played with the frames per second set to 45 instead of 30 and this sped things up immensely without making things too fast.

Ebonsword

2008-12-08, 10:24 AM

You know, I tried to play Planescape: Toment on two or three different occasions over the years (including when it was first released) and I was never able to get into it.

Partly, I think that the setting and characters are just too weird for my taste. I also probably didn't like it because it's more like an interactive novel than a dungeon crawl.

I've tried playing Arcanum a few times, too, and couldn't really get into that, either.

My favorite RPGs are probably Morrowind, Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, Neverwinter Nights 2, and Knights of the Old Republic 1 & 2.

I think that I tend to like RPGs that allow a lot of customization of your character & equipment, feature fun combat mechanics, and interactive NPCs. Morrowind is probably the odd one, though, since I mostly like that for the sense of discovery you get exploring the world.

Sir Tareg

2008-12-08, 11:48 AM

ChronoTrigger OWNS (not HAS... OWNS, forever) the top spot in this category.
Earthbound runs a close second.

Project_Mayhem

2008-12-08, 01:11 PM

Earthbound runs a close second.

Bugger, I forgot Earthbound. OK, that should be below FF6 on my list

DigoDragon

2008-12-10, 11:26 AM

:smallbiggrin: Someone with the same opinion as I! You sir, are made of awesome and win.

I agree with your agreement. You too deserve some awesome and win. :smallbiggrin: I'm hoping to get Secret of Mana on the Wii console in the near future.

Mushroom Ninja

2008-12-10, 11:31 AM

It is good but I would place it a distant fourth.

First is the entire Baldur's Gate Series.

I second your motion!

Aotrs Commander

2008-12-13, 01:11 PM

I would agree Torment is the best; though only narrowly. The KotRs and Jade Empire in particular, along with Mass Effect, all give it very stiff competition; as does Baldur's Gate 2/BG2: ToB.

And NWN 2 hasn't done bad (though Mask of the Betrayer is well-written, the freakin' spirit hunger mechanic makes it feel more rushed and like a chore to play than I'm comfortable with, so I've yet to finish it.)

(Icewind 1 & 2 were fun but mostly mindless hacks and NWN 1 was a bit bland - at least compared to the high standards of the rest! BG 1 cannot be fairly compared, since it was but an essay in the craft.)

Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout 3 I find are all entertaining (the former and latter slightly more so), but ultimately, what I want out of an RPG is not complete freedom to do what I want (I don't even want that on the tabletop!) but rather the character interaction, especially between the party, which the Bioware games do with panache (and Torment in particular does wonderfully).

I also like JRPGs, Final Fantasy in particular, and while I rate their best above the Bethsada triumverate - due their characterisation and plot (which is, let's face it basically optional in the Bethsada games!) - their lack of long, complex dialogue conversations places them slightly inferior in my opinion. Slightly. (I mean, we're still talking about every game I've mentioned being on the "I'm 99% likely to get it because it by those guys" list.)

I cannot comment on the Witcher, nor the earlier Fallouts, since I have played neither; though I am tempted to look into the former eventually and have heard a lot of good things about the latter.

My perfect RPG would be the level of detail, options, dialogue and characterisation of Torment; the party mechanics of the KotRs and NWN 2 (so you can feel you can swap your party around whenever you feel like it, instead of having to train them all up one-by-one); the plot somewhere between Torment and Final Fantasy (prefereably with 90% less angst in boths cases!); the length of a JRPG or BG 2; the combat with a more Western RPG bias (FF XII notwithstanding) and needed as often as in Torment (which is avoidable if you want a fair chunk of the time via skills or dialogue); and the level cap of Torment (i.e. none1.The genera and setting would really be immaterial.

(But if it's Star Wars, liberally season with TIE Fighter's Imperial attitude for extra win!)

However, something like Squeenix and Bioware coming together to make such a game would be Awesome that it would likely cause the universe to asplode.

But it would so be worth it...

1I did manage on my second full play through, which I fondly term the run of the Nameless Nutter (wherein I min-maxed the hell out of the game and basically soled it, using my companions only for as long as it took to pump them for dialogue XP, maintaining, despite my insanity, true neutral) reach level 60. At that point, all my stats were 25 except charisma - which was 23 - and I was regenerating so much that it took about five minautes after a combat ended before the "Heal 1"s stopped scrolling up the screen. Heck, the final boss couldn't kill me, I had so many hit points; I regenerated too fast! (About 500 hits or so. In AD&D rules!) I actually felt a bit sorry after the ending, since I knew that the Blood War was about to be disrupted by a 60th level psycho nutter with a two-handed hammer going round and spifflicating every demon and devil he came across simply because he could. I gave it only a century or two before there weren't any Tanar'ri or Baatezu left at all...

Good times, good times...

Eldan

2008-12-13, 01:36 PM

Ah, yes. I think someone on the planewalker site linked a short fanfic set about 10 years after the events of planescape torment, where an insane, scar-covered, rune-axe-wielding maniac bursts forth from a portal out of the grey waste, complaining that there are no fiends left, since they all relocated their battles elsewhere.

Tengu_temp

2008-12-13, 07:39 PM

Hmm. I will save my judgement for when I finish the game, but there are chances Persona 3 might dethrone Planescape: Torment as the Best RPG Eva for me. Time will tell.

Eldariel

2008-12-13, 08:06 PM

I'd say Torment is up there. I can't decide between it, Fallout 2, BG Trilogy and The Witcher. Then again, I have yet to play such time-tested classics as KoToR, Return to Krondor, Elder Scrolls-series and Ultimas.

JRPGs I consider a different type. CT, Mario RPG, FFVI, FFVII, FFT would be right up there.

And Jagged Alliances are close enough to RPGs to warrant a mention (well, JA and JA2 anyways - Deadly Games was kinda meh, but JA2 was just plain friggin' awesome).

Fallout 3 wouldn't even make my Top 10. It was ok, but it just plain pales in comparison to its predecessors.

EDIT: Oh yeah, System Shocks and Thief 1 should make the grade. You could argue they're FPSs, but really, no they're not.

Vic_Sage

2008-12-13, 09:56 PM

Personally, I would say that Dragon Quest 8, Persona 1-3, Final Fantasy 6, and Earthbound are the best.

Planescape and Baldurs Gate bored the crap out of me personally.

Prowl

2008-12-14, 01:40 AM

If you're judging just on how many hours got sunk into it, for me it's Ultima IV and V.

Eldariel

2008-12-14, 08:51 AM

If you're judging just on how many hours got sunk into it, for me it's Ultima IV and V.

I thought we were judging by what we enjoyed the most *shrug*

Comet

2008-12-14, 09:29 AM

I thought we were judging by what we enjoyed the most *shrug*
I don't think any of us are thick enough to keep spending tens of hours on games that we don't enjoy.

While Ultimas aren't the best RPG's for me, they will always have a special place in my mind. The amount of freedom in those games is wonderful and the story felt fresh at the time (especially Ultima IV, playing Jesus-in-training rocks).

Eldariel

2008-12-15, 01:10 AM

What were the best RPGs for you then? That's what this thread is about, unless I misunderstood something.

warty goblin

2008-12-15, 01:16 AM

Cespenar

2008-12-15, 01:51 AM

While I don't see Mount & Blade as a RPG, I nonetheless second it. It has the most realistic and enjoyable combat system ever seen in gaming business, in my opinion.

Fan

2008-12-15, 02:00 AM

Final Fantasy 9 easily.
*flees thread*

factotum

2008-12-15, 03:16 AM

EDIT: Oh yeah, System Shocks and Thief 1 should make the grade. You could argue they're FPSs, but really, no they're not.

System Shock and System Shock 2 I can certainly see being argued as RPGs, but not the Thief series--even in Thief 3, where you theoretically could wander the city at will, you were still limited by the mission-based format. That's not to say the Thief series aren't awesome sauce, just that I don't think they qualify as RPGs for the purposes of this thread.

Eldariel

2008-12-15, 03:18 AM

I guess you're right. Maybe I just like the games too much to pass an objective sentence on what they should be considered.

RPGuru1331

2008-12-15, 05:50 AM

Appending my earlier comment. Any list of greatest RPGs fails if it does not include the Witcher, Mass Effect and Mount & Blade, the only open world game I've ever played with sufficient balls to actually be open world.

That's.. not an RPG dude. It's a Dynasty WArriors style massive Beat 'Em Up.

Are Genres THAT h ard to determine?

Anyway, I spent the weeken d playing SMT3, since I realized I haven't cleared the Megaten games on PS2, a nd I'd forgotten just how mu ch I like these. I mean, I lik ePersona 2 better then the rest, but hey, that's how it goes. And that brings me to my point; I'd forgotten how mu ch better I like PErsona 2 then Mana series. Any other Megaten fans looking at this thread? I can see Tengu_Temp is playing PErsona 3, at least..

warty goblin

2008-12-15, 10:32 AM

That's.. not an RPG dude. It's a Dynasty WArriors style massive Beat 'Em Up.

Are Genres THAT h ard to determine?

Anyway, I spent the weeken d playing SMT3, since I realized I haven't cleared the Megaten games on PS2, a nd I'd forgotten just how mu ch I like these. I mean, I lik ePersona 2 better then the rest, but hey, that's how it goes. And that brings me to my point; I'd forgotten how mu ch better I like PErsona 2 then Mana series. Any other Megaten fans looking at this thread? I can see Tengu_Temp is playing PErsona 3, at least..

What isn't an RPG about it? You play a character who levels up, leads a party and makes decisions that have large-scale consequences for the world. It's just that none of it is scripted. Like I said, it's an open world game with the balls to be open world.

RPGuru1331

2008-12-15, 10:40 AM

What isn't an RPG about it? You play a character who levels up, leads a party and makes decisions that have large-scale consequences for the world. It's just that none of it is scripted. Like I said, it's an open world game with the balls to be open world.

You play the leader of a mercenary unit who leads a mercenary unit into large army vs. army beatdowns. The only sense that makes it an RPG is that there are statistics, and they eventually increase, but Dynasty WArriors has statistics that increase, and a bunch of guys who follow you around and whup ass with you, but nobody calls it an RPG, now do they? And I'm not sure I'd call "You can follow whatever leader you want" much of an open world..

warty goblin

2008-12-15, 11:27 AM

You play the leader of a mercenary unit who leads a mercenary unit into large army vs. army beatdowns. The only sense that makes it an RPG is that there are statistics, and they eventually increase, but Dynasty WArriors has statistics that increase, and a bunch of guys who follow you around and whup ass with you, but nobody calls it an RPG, now do they? And I'm not sure I'd call "You can follow whatever leader you want" much of an open world..

As opposed to something like Neverwinter Nights 2, where I play a person who leads a squad of incredibly violent social misfits as they wander the world making off with everything that's not nailed down? The only difference in M&B is that I'm doing this because it's how I've chosen to play the game, not at the urgings of the plot, or because I opted to take one of two or three fixed branches.

And for the record, you don't actually have to follow any particular kingdom in M&B. It's brutally hard, but you can do it. Hell, you can even viably play a merchant, or a ruthless bandit who indiscriminately butchers villages for booty, choices I have never seen in any other RPG that doesn't happen on the top of a table and involve dice.

My point is that M&B has lots of meaningful choice in it, far more than a lot of games I'd guess you would label RPGs, and it has stats, party mechanics, looting and inventory, so I'm very confused as to how it could not be an RPG.

Oregano

2008-12-15, 11:30 AM

Eldan

2008-12-15, 11:48 AM

It's on the PC, you can find it easily by googling.

warty goblin

2008-12-15, 11:59 AM

This Mount & Blade sounds interesting, what platform's it for? I had heard of it, but only vaguely. Sounds like Oblivion but you know not stupid(for the record Morrowing is superior in nearly every way).

Mount & Blade (http://www.taleworlds.com/) is a rather strange beast. It's an open world PC exclusive RPG with completely real-time and reasonably realistic combat, with an emphasis on mounted warfare.

Know how in Oblivion your horse just stops? Yeah, not in M&B, it keeps going unless you tell it to slow down or it hit something. You can trample guys with your horse, have it cut out from under you, try to shoot guys from its back (which is appropriately hard, the game's arrow physics are good), couch your lance for obscene damage, and even do more damage with a sword due to the extra momentum. There's no magic, and no healing items at all, so if you start a battle at 20/45 health, that's all you get for the entire battle*, and weapons do lots of damage, particularly if you don't have good armor it's quite possible to be one-shotted even from full health. To give you an idea, the most health I've ever managed to get in the game is I think about 70, and I not uncommonly do 50 or 100 damage a hit by later in the game.

And when I say open world, I mean 'open world.' There is no main quest at all. There's a lot of different jobs available, such as transporting goods, hunting down criminals, defending the honor of a princess, raiding cattle, raising armies, gathering weapons, taking prisoners and so on. Do enough for a faction and they start to like you. Eventually they'll let you join their side, and even grant you a title and lands. You also get to take part in more important quests, such as attacking enemy towns, and actually conquer the map. Or you can completely ignore the massive ongoing war, and make money as a merchant or a bandit or become a champion of the peasantry, although there's very little money in that. Best of all, there's no button that says 'become a merchant,' you simply do it by buying and selling a lot of stuff and advancing your trading skills, and are, at any time, free to return to stabbing peasants in the face and taking their stuff.

Also, you can loot villages, but in general only after killing most of the population.

* Unless you are like me, and know the health cheat. Although I've actually lost fights even with it...

Eldan

2008-12-15, 12:23 PM

Yes, it's a great game. I currently have an army of 100 "mongolian" horse archers of the highest level (Khergite Lancers), and when I fight the quite usual light infantry armies of my opponents, I charge once and half the opponents are gone. Parrying is actually very important, as is armor.

RPGuru1331

2008-12-15, 12:33 PM

As opposed to something like Neverwinter Nights 2, where I play a person who leads a squad of incredibly violent social misfits as they wander the world making off with everything that's not nailed down? The only difference in M&B is that I'm doing this because it's how I've chosen to play the game, not at the urgings of the plot, or because I opted to take one of two or three fixed branches.

And for the record, you don't actually have to follow any particular kingdom in M&B. It's brutally hard, but you can do it. Hell, you can even viably play a merchant, or a ruthless bandit who indiscriminately butchers villages for booty, choices I have never seen in any other RPG that doesn't happen on the top of a table and involve dice.

My point is that M&B has lots of meaningful choice in it, far more than a lot of games I'd guess you would label RPGs, and it has stats, party mechanics, looting and inventory, so I'm very confused as to how it could not be an RPG.

No, I suppose you don't have to follo w amonarch , b ut I didn't put that mu ch time into it. It's not my first paradox game. Just because I can play an unciv in Victoria doesn't mean I particularly want to.

Anyway, gameplay matters, dude. It's too far from any existing RPG tradition to actu ally be one. Having loot mechanics doesn't cut it either. IT's Paradox. You micro your soldiers when strategy isn't a concern.

warty goblin

2008-12-15, 12:54 PM

No, I suppose you don't have to follo w amonarch , b ut I didn't put that mu ch time into it. It's not my first paradox game. Just because I can play an unciv in Victoria doesn't mean I particularly want to.

Anyway, gameplay matters, dude. It's too far from any existing RPG tradition to actu ally be one. Having loot mechanics doesn't cut it either. IT's Paradox. You micro your soldiers when strategy isn't a concern.

Are we even talking about the same game here? M&B is developed by Taleworlds, not Paradox. It's published by Paradox yes, but was released online in open and fully playable beta way before that, with most features already present before being signed. Saying its a Paradox game is about as meaningful as saying that Portal is an EA game.

And there's like what, six different commands for ordering soldiers around? Charge, Hold Ground, Follow, Mount/Dismount, Tighten/Extend Line, and Switch Weapons, with soldiers only addressable by type (Infantry, Cavalry, Archers, Everyone). If that's too much micro for an RPG, than there's no way in hell something like NWN2 is an RPG.

Nor is most of the gameplay that different, Mass Effect, Oblivion and Fallout 3 all have real time combat in which the player's reflexes are important, and they're all RPGs.

Oregano

2008-12-15, 12:55 PM

RPGuru1331

2008-12-15, 01:00 PM

Are we even talking about the same game here? M&B is developed by Taleworlds, not Paradox. It's published by Paradox yes, but was released online in open and fully playable beta way before that, with most features already present before being signed. Saying its a Paradox game is about as meaningful as saying that Portal is an EA game.
I suppose this is my karma for my reactions to "Square Enix made Star Ocean 3". Karma's a bitch, neh?

And there's like what, six different commands for ordering soldiers around? Charge, Hold Ground, Follow, Mount/Dismount, Tighten/Extend Line, and Switch Weapons, with soldiers only addressable by type (Infantry, Cavalry, Archers, Everyone). If that's too much micro for an RPG, than there's no way in hell something like NWN2 is an RPG.
It isn't too mu ch micro for an RPG; That would b ehard, since it's not an RPG. I was act ually referring to equipping individual troops.

Nor is most of the gameplay that different, Mass Effect, Oblivion and Fallout 3 all have real time combat in which the player's reflexes are important, and they're all RPGs.
Mass Effect, Oblivion, and Fallout 3 also shore up their RPG Credentials by actually mak ing a big deal about character growth (And makign that growth meaningful on an individual character's scale), character interaction, having an overarching plot, and having quests. When you pay more homage to the structure of RPGs, you get more leeway in other parts.

It's sounds a bit like an Action/Strategy/RPG, with RPG being there but not being the top priority. I might get it but currently my PC is broke and I doubt my laptop will be able to function fully if I install it on here.
It's not an RPG; Equipment and statistics are not sufficient on their own.

warty goblin

2008-12-15, 01:05 PM

It's sounds a bit like an Action/Strategy/RPG, with RPG being there but not being the top priority. I might get it but currently my PC is broke and I doubt my laptop will be able to function fully if I install it on here.

Action RPG would be a logical descriptor in a logical universe. However that title has been seized in a deathgrip by Diablo and its ilk, and M&B has about as much to do with Diablo as oats with solar flares. There is some strategy, and a really good helping of tactics, even touches of logistics (people need to eat), although I think they got rid of the option to eat your own horse. Man, I loved doing that.

Oregano

2008-12-15, 01:35 PM

Action RPG would be a logical descriptor in a logical universe. However that title has been seized in a deathgrip by Diablo and its ilk, and M&B has about as much to do with Diablo as oats with solar flares. There is some strategy, and a really good helping of tactics, even touches of logistics (people need to eat), although I think they got rid of the option to eat your own horse. Man, I loved doing that.

I summed that up into strategy(although it's more than just strategy), I've never actually played Diablo when I think Action RPG I think Oblivion, Dark Messiah(more action) and Infinite Undiscovery(more RPG).

Some publishers do have some input into the games I think, but just some mentoring and advice to them.

Cainen

2008-12-15, 02:32 PM

I'm confused. What're you defining an RPG by? Remember, the game has virtually everything older RPGs have - a lack of dungeon crawling doesn't mean it's not an RPG.

RPGuru1331

2008-12-15, 03:07 PM

Hm. Look ing over it again, I think I may be confusing it with something similar, who's gameplay occured in 'real life'. And d idn't have the skill systems M+B seems to. Except now I'm going nuts trying to figure out what the hell I confused it WITH. Big change in whatever the hell I'm thinking of actually did place an emphasis on the 'strategic' (Tactical, bu t th en Strategy RPGs aren't either, besides Ogre Battle) side by having you switch control of which unit you're in.

Democratus

2008-12-16, 01:49 PM

Knights of the Old Republic.

Not since the death of Aeris have I been so amazed and shocked at the twist a game plot can take.

Playing KOTOR was like going to watch the new Star Wars movies and having them be as good as I hoped. I felt like a kid again while playing this game.

Lost Demiurge

2008-12-16, 04:13 PM

Oh lord, let's see...

1. Planescape: Torment - For reasons better said by those before me. And yes, it IS the best ever.

Here are some runners up.

2. Deus Ex - Yes, it's close enough for me to call it an RPG. Beautiful game. Can't say the same for the sequel, and that makes me sad.

3. Vampire: Bloodlines - Beautiful. Flawed, but beautiful. I want a sequel, dammit. Or another game in the same vein (heh).

4. Chrono Trigger - Classic. Some place it higher and that's fine.

5. Final Fantasy VI - I keep coming back to it. It's just so full of coolness, at least to me.

6. Knights of the Old Republic 2 - This is another glorious, bugged game. SO mad at Lucasarts for forcing a hackjob at the ending.

7. Fallout 3 - Very good! Hoping it gets even better with downloadable content. Only the fact that it's got stiff competition keeps it from being higher on the list.