Think I could raise any money from commissions?

[Mr. Moon]

Here's my stuff. (http://mooncalled-whiterose.deviantart.com/gallery/)

Specifically, this one (http://mooncalled-whiterose.deviantart.com/art/Kill-him-Glitch-87469130), this one, (http://mooncalled-whiterose.deviantart.com/art/Battle-in-the-Mines-98060202) this, (http://mooncalled-whiterose.deviantart.com/art/Battle-in-the-Mines-98060202) this, (http://mooncalled-whiterose.deviantart.com/art/Avi-Art-for-Misty-Muffin-98305382) and maybe this (http://mooncalled-whiterose.deviantart.com/art/Mah-man-self-101310779).

I was thinking of charging $5 CAN for a pencil piece, and $8 for a colour art. Yes? No? Not yet? Maybe? If not, what can I do to make the answer yes? How much would you pay? Be brutal.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

It's pretty good, but not good enough to be charging money, me-thinks.

[Mr. Moon]

How much better do you think I need to get?

[Haruki-kun]

How much better do you think I need to get?

Well.... I think your drawings are pretty good, but you have issues with colour/pencil. In other words, the drawing looks good, but the filling needs to improve.

How, I dunno. I'm still trying to work it out myself....<.<

[Sneak]

To be honest, I think you have to be really good to make money off of commissions, as there are already people willing to draw for free. You're good, but I wouldn't want to pay five dollars for a commission (no offense intended, of course).

Just mah 2c.

[Echowinds]

Not saying your art is bad, but I know many artists that have much better skills than you and I that doesn't attract any commission requests.

I guess something as good as Kaytara's stuff (http://kaytara.deviantart.com/art/Arcane-Arts-105256369) could get potentially attract commissions, but the time spent on it is far higher than the benefits. It's difficult to live on commissions as it requires both speed and quality.

Then again, I also know some rather unskilled artists (in my opinion) that gets a lot of positive comments and commissions, so I guess sometimes you can be lucky if a lot of people like your style. Furthermore, it all depends on what kind of stuff you are willing to draw. Sometimes your artistic skills don't need to be all that great to thrive in more questionable fetishes...

[Mr. Moon]

@Haruki: Huh. Thanks.

@Sneak: Don't worry about offending me. When it comes to criticism, I've got Damage Reduction 50.

@Echo: Wow. I don't think I have that kind of patience...

[Flouncy]

This might sound rich coming from an amateur dabbler at best but to truly improve your art you'll have to go back to basics.

Namely, anatomy, lighting, observation and then practicing these things until it becomes a part of your psyche. Books are a good place to start. Exercises in these books can give you a framework to build upon.

Drawing from life is essential, it helps train your brain to know when you've made an error in perspective, size, lighting, etc. And I implore you not to choose one particular art style, try everything, experiment. Manga is the main culprit, so many people use it as a crutch. Notice how so many amateur Manga drawn characters look so similar apart from there hair and clothes? It's because they come from a template, they learn a few basics and apply them to everything they draw. Sorry I'm ranting now.

I made a suggest that this forum should start a weekly sketch group much in the same vain as the iron avatar thread but open it up to any art style. I still think its a great idea, people here want to improve. A bit of focus would not go astray.

[Lissou]

You can offer commissions and show this art as example of your work. After all, people will know what to expect, so it's possible some will ask for drawings of their OCs for instance.
And drawing what someone else asks is good practice, it forces you to draw things you wouldn't have drawn with your own imagination.

This being said, Flouncy is right. It's important for you to develop your style, and that comes with trying a bit of everything and keeping what you like from everywhere. Even if you want to draw manga-style in the end, explore everywhere, you'll make your style richer.

And definitely go back to anatomy. It's very annoying but it helps in the long run. Try reproducing some drawings, but start with the skeletton, then muscles, then the skin, then clothes. It will take at least 4 times the time, but you'll learn more.
It's something I've noticed from reading Misfile, that I started only recently. It's a manga series, and many of the drawings are amazing. But sometime, there is an unfamiliar pose, and the bodies look disproportionate or misshapen. I assume (possibly wrongly) that the cartoonist doesn't know enough anatomy and learnt by reproducing other manga drawings.
Also, the style of it hasn't involved in the many years it's been published online. I think manga is more stagnant if you don't take risks and just use your templates.

If you want to make progress, you have to first go back to a place where you draw like crap, and work your way up in a style. Then go back and work your way up in another. Keep what you like in all of them: a way to draw the nose, the eyes? The way it's shaded? The proportions of the body?
In the end you'll find your own style, which you might not like that much, but it will be unique, recognisable, and call for more commissions.

Drawing "manga-style" is good, but many people do that knowadays (I use quotation marks because even mangas have dozens of styles at least, and not only the one that's imitated the most.).

You're going to have to make up your own rules for drawing. But before you can do that you need to A) Know the rules of anatomy (to better respect or break them) and B) see around what other rules artists use.

It's going to take a few years. Try drawing everyday. Start a webcomic or even two in completely different styles, and draw them regularly... Doesn't matter what they're about, you just want to progress. You don't even have to put them online if you really don't have a story.

So that's my advice. Step one: find some good anatomy books, or better, drawing books that specialise on drawing the human body using anatomy. Step two, gather all the artists you like, from your bookshelves, from the internet, from the library, and study them. Copy them. Steal from them.

When you're done with the drawing part, you'll have to work on how to ink, what to use, how to colour and so on. For that too, try to explore as much as possible.

[Mr. Moon]

This might sound rich coming from an amateur dabbler at best but to truly improve your art you'll have to go back to basics.

Namely, anatomy, lighting, observation and then practicing these things until it becomes a part of your psyche. Books are a good place to start. Exercises in these books can give you a framework to build upon.

Drawing from life is essential, it helps train your brain to know when you've made an error in perspective, size, lighting, etc. And I implore you not to choose one particular art style, try everything, experiment. Manga is the main culprit, so many people use it as a crutch. Notice how so many amateur Manga drawn characters look so similar apart from there hair and clothes? It's because they come from a template, they learn a few basics and apply them to everything they draw. Sorry I'm ranting now.

Actualy, I have noticed that. Never gave it much thought, apart from getting annoyed over how boring my eyes are.


I made a suggest that this forum should start a weekly sketch group much in the same vain as the iron avatar thread but open it up to any art style. I still think its a great idea, people here want to improve. A bit of focus would not go astray. Huh. That's a good idea. If you start one, I'd be glad to join.


You can offer commissions and show this art as example of your work. After all, people will know what to expect, so it's possible some will ask for drawings of their OCs for instance.
And drawing what someone else asks is good practice, it forces you to draw things you wouldn't have drawn with your own imagination.

This being said, Flouncy is right. It's important for you to develop your style, and that comes with trying a bit of everything and keeping what you like from everywhere. Even if you want to draw manga-style in the end, explore everywhere, you'll make your style richer.

And definitely go back to anatomy. It's very annoying but it helps in the long run. Try reproducing some drawings, but start with the skeletton, then muscles, then the skin, then clothes. It will take at least 4 times the time, but you'll learn more. Gah. But skeletons have bones.
...
Never mind. I want to get better. No complaining, bad Moon Called!

It's something I've noticed from reading Misfile, that I started only recently. It's a manga series, and many of the drawings are amazing. But sometime, there is an unfamiliar pose, and the bodies look disproportionate or misshapen. I assume (possibly wrongly) that the cartoonist doesn't know enough anatomy and learnt by reproducing other manga drawings.
Also, the style of it hasn't involved in the many years it's been published online. I think manga is more stagnant if you don't take risks and just use your templates.

If you want to make progress, you have to first go back to a place where you draw like crap, and work your way up in a style. Then go back and work your way up in another. Keep what you like in all of them: a way to draw the nose, the eyes? The way it's shaded? The proportions of the body? Oh, okay, that sounds like a good thing to do. Can you recommend any styles, or how-to-draw literature?

In the end you'll find your own style, which you might not like that much, but it will be unique, recognisable, and call for more commissions.

Drawing "manga-style" is good, but many people do that knowadays (I use quotation marks because even mangas have dozens of styles at least, and not only the one that's imitated the most.).

You're going to have to make up your own rules for drawing. But before you can do that you need to A) Know the rules of anatomy (to better respect or break them) and B) see around what other rules artists use.

It's going to take a few years. Try drawing everyday. Start a webcomic or even two in completely different styles, and draw them regularly... Doesn't matter what they're about, you just want to progress. You don't even have to put them online if you really don't have a story.

So that's my advice. Step one: find some good anatomy books, or better, drawing books that specialise on drawing the human body using anatomy. Step two, gather all the artists you like, from your bookshelves, from the internet, from the library, and study them. Copy them. Steal from them. Once again, this is a good idea. Any suggestions? There's so much to pick from, I haven't a clue where to start.


When you're done with the drawing part, you'll have to work on how to ink, what to use, how to colour and so on. For that too, try to explore as much as possible. Okay, so, recap: Try different styles, especially from real life. Start with skeletons, work my way up. Play with styles to find what you want. Use web comics to reinforce what I've learnt. Did I miss anything?

[Flouncy]

Once again, this is a good idea. Any suggestions? There's so much to pick from, I haven't a clue where to start.

Okay, so, recap: Try different styles, especially from real life. Start with skeletons, work my way up. Play with styles to find what you want. Use web comics to reinforce what I've learnt. Did I miss anything?

As far as books go, I've always enjoyed books by Andrew Loomis he is an excellent teacher as well as an illustrator. Unfortunately I don't believe his books are still being published. But luckily for you people on the internet wont let his teachings die, you can find torrents of his books by doing some investigation or check out these pdfs from this website:

http://www.artcone.com/forum/andrew_loomis_books_downloads-t1772.html

[Echowinds]

Just a note, if you decide to go for realistic anatomy, a little off in your proportions will get picked on by the audience. If you draw your stuff in a cartoony style, you can be miles off in your proportions and anatomy, but will still be accepted. It always help to be skilled with anatomy, but you don't have to be good at that to be a good artist.

[Lissou]

Okay, so, recap: Try different styles, especially from real life. Start with skeletons, work my way up. Play with styles to find what you want. Use web comics to reinforce what I've learnt. Did I miss anything?

Pretty much. You don't have to learn or draw every single bone, though. The spine is probably the most important, then the shoulder and hips.
Anatomy isn't only about proportions. Once you learn your style, you'll make your own rules, and the proportions won't be realistic. But they will be consistent, which is very important, and also, anatomy will teach you how the body behaves as a whole. For instance, if the hips tilt one way, the shoulders tilt the other way. If you carry something heavy in your hands, you'll lean back to compensate. A lot of things like that, that will make your characters look balanced.

I don't know many books in English, all the ones I use are in French. But I'll try researching artists with various styles to help you with my second advice. I'll post links to example of their art in this thread.

[Lissou]

Ok, I'm very annoyed because I worked on a post for at least an hour and it bugged. I'll try and get the important parts again.

I tried to find variations of proportions to show you you can adapt it however you want once you know how the body behaves. I was showing you some common proportions:

1) Because it's probably best if you know them, realistic proportions are about 8 heads tall for an adult.
Here you can see a realistic female being stretched to 9 1/2 and even 10 1/2 heads tall. That type of proportions is used in superhero comics, for gods/goddesses and for amazon-type females.
http://www.intellego.fr/uploads/1/5/1504/media/figurine2.png

2) Manga proportions are often 6 to 7 heads tall (except for old people who can be as short as 2 heads tall):
http://www.intellego.fr/uploads/1/5/1504/media/fille-manga.jpg

3) Cartoony proportions: 3 to 4 heads tall. Two examples here:

a) Tarol Hunt (Goblins):
Goblins are a bit over 3 heads tall. They also have only 4 fingers (a lot of artists draw even humans with only 4 fingers). Humans are a bit over 4 heads tall. Neither have irises (the coloured part of the eye):
http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp295/Avistew/GobHumprops.jpg
You'll notice Goblins have a square head that makes them look more stout.

Females have a thinner head and are over 4 heads tall. That makes them look more graceful. they're also thinner, and because they're closer to human proportions, the reader can realize they're beautiful. This is not true of ugly female goblins (if you want an example, see the fortune teller. I'll spare you the picure here, go check if you're curious)
http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp295/Avistew/MalFemprops.jpg
You can see that even though the female isn't actually taller, she kinda looks taller, and definitely more slender.

With these proportions, the way he draws goblin (and elven) ears, and the lack of iris, among other things, Thunt establishes his own style by combining things unique to him and others that he took from his inspirations.

b) OOTS: you won't find more simplistic. Humans are about 3 heads tall. Rules apply to the face: the eyes and mouths are placed differently in a male compared to a female. Also, even though the body acts as a bloc which limitates some of the movement, it remains realistic in the fact that it respect the center of gravity rules. For instance, in the latest comic, when Celia grabs Haley, she titls her head back to make up for Haley's weight. Due to gravity and because Haley can't make the effort to keep it straight, her own head falls down a bit.
OOTS also follow rules for expressions, which helps convey the feelings intended with only a few lines and dots. It requires a lot knowledge to first establish these rules: the less details you can rely on, the more you have to make it count. Keep that in mind if you want to go for simplicity, it can end up a lot harder (unless you just copy the rules created by someone else, like many artists do here by using the exact same style as the Giant).

And to finish here (was a lot bigger, but I'll probably post again, I don't feel like spending too long re-typing it all), you can blatantly violate basic anatomy and be fine if you make it a rule you follow. Take Humberto Ramos: he draws huge feet, but they're always the size of the character's forearm. Rule established, as a result his style, whether you like it or not (I'm personally not too fond of his work) is homogeneous. It's HIS style.
Examples:
http://www.majorspoilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08a/the_ganglow.jpg
http://infragrafik.free.fr/tutos/details/ramos.jpg
http://infragrafik.free.fr/tutos/details/ramos1.jpg
http://humbertoramos.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/ringo_low.jpg

[Mr. Moon]

As far as books go, I've always enjoyed books by Andrew Loomis he is an excellent teacher as well as an illustrator. Unfortunately I don't believe his books are still being published. But luckily for you people on the internet wont let his teachings die, you can find torrents of his books by doing some investigation or check out these pdfs from this website:

http://www.artcone.com/forum/andrew_loomis_books_downloads-t1772.html

Funny. Most of the links didn't work. I managed to get the first two, though. Thanks. I can't wait to get started on them tonight. :smallbiggrin:


Just a note, if you decide to go for realistic anatomy, a little off in your proportions will get picked on by the audience. If you draw your stuff in a cartoony style, you can be miles off in your proportions and anatomy, but will still be accepted. It always help to be skilled with anatomy, but you don't have to be good at that to be a good artist.

Duely noted. I've never actualy been interested in a more realistic style. Cartoony stuff just seems more aesthetic, in my humble opinion.


Pretty much. You don't have to learn or draw every single bone, though. The spine is probably the most important, then the shoulder and hips.
Anatomy isn't only about proportions. Once you learn your style, you'll make your own rules, and the proportions won't be realistic. But they will be consistent, which is very important, and also, anatomy will teach you how the body behaves as a whole. For instance, if the hips tilt one way, the shoulders tilt the other way. If you carry something heavy in your hands, you'll lean back to compensate. A lot of things like that, that will make your characters look balanced.

I don't know many books in English, all the ones I use are in French. But I'll try researching artists with various styles to help you with my second advice. I'll post links to example of their art in this thread.

This would be highly appreciated.


Ok, I'm very annoyed because I worked on a post for at least an hour and it bugged. I'll try and get the important parts again.[/spoiler] Ouch. Thanks for the effort. It's appreciated.


I tried to find variations of proportions to show you you can adapt it however you want once you know how the body behaves. I was showing you some common proportions:

1) Because it's probably best if you know them, realistic proportions are about 8 heads tall for an adult.
Here you can see a realistic female being stretched to 9 1/2 and even 10 1/2 heads tall. That type of proportions is used in superhero comics, for gods/goddesses and for amazon-type females.
http://www.intellego.fr/uploads/1/5/1504/media/figurine2.png

2) Manga proportions are often 6 to 7 heads tall (except for old people who can be as short as 2 heads tall):
http://www.intellego.fr/uploads/1/5/1504/media/fille-manga.jpg

3) Cartoony proportions: 3 to 4 heads tall. Two examples here:

Again, this is noted.

a) Tarol Hunt (Goblins):
Goblins are a bit over 3 heads tall. They also have only 4 fingers (a lot of artists draw even humans with only 4 fingers). Humans are a bit over 4 heads tall. Neither have irises (the coloured part of the eye):
http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp295/Avistew/GobHumprops.jpg
You'll notice Goblins have a square head that makes them look more stout.

Females have a thinner head and are over 4 heads tall. That makes them look more graceful. they're also thinner, and because they're closer to human proportions, the reader can realize they're beautiful. This is not true of ugly female goblins (if you want an example, see the fortune teller. I'll spare you the picure here, go check if you're curious)

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp295/Avistew/MalFemprops.jpg
You can see that even though the female isn't actually taller, she kinda looks taller, and definitely more slender.

With these proportions, the way he draws goblin (and elven) ears, and the lack of iris, among other things, Thunt establishes his own style by combining things unique to him and others that he took from his inspirations.

Yes, I see. Also, bonus points for using Mr. Hunt as an example. Goblins is awesome.


b) OOTS: you won't find more simplistic. Humans are about 3 heads tall. Rules apply to the face: the eyes and mouths are placed differently in a male compared to a female. Also, even though the body acts as a bloc which limitates some of the movement, it remains realistic in the fact that it respect the center of gravity rules. For instance, in the latest comic, when Celia grabs Haley, she titls her head back to make up for Haley's weight. Due to gravity and because Haley can't make the effort to keep it straight, her own head falls down a bit.
OOTS also follow rules for expressions, which helps convey the feelings intended with only a few lines and dots. It requires a lot knowledge to first establish these rules: the less details you can rely on, the more you have to make it count. Keep that in mind if you want to go for simplicity, it can end up a lot harder (unless you just copy the rules created by someone else, like many artists do here by using the exact same style as the Giant).

And to finish here (was a lot bigger, but I'll probably post again, I don't feel like spending too long re-typing it all), you can blatantly violate basic anatomy and be fine if you make it a rule you follow. Take Humberto Ramos: he draws huge feet, but they're always the size of the character's forearm. Rule established, as a result his style, whether you like it or not (I'm personally not too fond of his work) is homogeneous. It's HIS style.
Examples:
http://www.majorspoilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08a/the_ganglow.jpg
http://infragrafik.free.fr/tutos/details/ramos.jpg
http://infragrafik.free.fr/tutos/details/ramos1.jpg
http://humbertoramos.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/ringo_low.jpg

*nod, nod*
I know my responses are really short, but I am absorbing all this, or trying to the best I can. Your hard work is appreciated. Makes me feel all happy inside. :smallbiggrin:

[Rockbird]

When i began practicing drawing from the skeleton up for the first time (A few years ago) i thought it really didn't help me, as my style was too simplistic to get any benefit from it. It also looked horrible, in hindsight :smallamused:. It took a year or two i think before i went back to it, and by that time it worked wonders. I'm almost getting close to a level of realism i can be satisfied with :smalltongue:.
So i guess my advice'd be: Even if anatomy doesn't seem to help, keep coming back to it until it does. And practice drawing in different styles, i really really helps.
I like copying WH40K, personally :smallwink:

As for book's, i don't know any actual guidebooks, but for reference i'd recommend
Anatomy For the Artist
The dynamics of the human form
Illustrated by Tom Flint. I really like it, because it's just pictures, no words. I find all the medical jibberish just clutter things.




Oh, and practice hands and feet. A lot. And then a little bit more. And some more. I know it sucks. Do it. :smalltongue:

[Kaytara]

If I may donate my humble two cents, there's also a matter of VOLUME to consider - if you want to improve fast, I mean. It's simple, really. Practice makes perfect, so your drawing skills improve by a tiny margin each time you draw something. Therefore, the speed of your improvement will be directly proportional to the amount of drawings you do each day. ^^

The only other acceptable alternative is really good quality, and by that I mean driving yourself to the extent of your abilities with each drawing. It will make every new work you dedicate yourself to become a masterpiece (in your eyes, for about 24 hours) but it won't go easy on your ego (what with all the self-criticism you'll have to do) and will generally be hell.

Effort and dedication tend to go hand in hand. I've noticed that my own skills - or the end results, at the very least - improved considerably when I started demanding them to. I started wanting EVERYTHING to end up looking exactly like I wanted it to look and didn't let myself be satisfied with anything subpar, so now I usually fiddle around with something until it DOES look as good as I can get it to look whereas earlier I would've just called it a day.

It's frustrating as hell, because you'll tend to be well outside of your comfort zone a lot of the time, but it's worth it.

[Alien]

It's nice to see you want to improve, that's a victory in itself. People who don't want to improve, will never be great, even if they started out good.

Many people here have said useful things, so I'll be brief. That you can use more outlandish anatomy on cartoonish figures can be a bit misleading.
You should be sure you know how anatomy really works before bending it and breaking it. While it's obvious Goblins doesn't use straight human anatomy, you can generally easily see that the creator knows anatomy and realistic posture. Look at the samples that Lissou pasted for instance:

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp295/Avistew/GobHumprops.jpg
Note the pose of this old goblin. Can you see he's walking towards you? One leg in front of the other, sure, but also see the rest. The torso swinging the opposite way, and then you have the lowered head adding to the impression of a slow, steady and very determined path.


For instance, if the hips tilt one way, the shoulders tilt the other way.
http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp295/Avistew/MalFemprops.jpg
Notice how Fox does indeed lean her hips one way, and the shoulders the other? Along with the rest of her pose, you end up with a very realistic looking posture, no matter how outlandish one might consider her proportions.
And again, the anatomy. As Lissou said, the female looks obviously thinner, sleeker and more graceful than the male. This is intentional. The anatomy has been modified for specific purposes, but the basis still lies with real anatomy.
Look, also, at their legs. Note that the length of the thigh compared to the shin part is about equivalent of a human. Those could also have been changed, but for the goblins it makes no sense to change them, it would serve no purpose, and make their walk more clumsy and have other side effects that largely are not worth the bother of changing the proportions for.

So, in short, as I failed to be brief with the rest, learn anatomy, learn how the joints work, and how the proportions look. Draw the body in every pose, and figure out how far you can bend it until it breaks. Then consider whether you want to give a specific impression with your art, making the child's face more expressive, making the warrior look stronger, making the man look sexier, etc. Find a reason to change the anatomy, then change it. But first know what it really looks like.

I hope this helps any. You got a good thing going, and I'd love to see you progress even further.

(fwiw, I'm a sucky artist, but a sketch group does sound like fun)