d20 Rebirth

[Fax Celestis]

http://twitsig.com/FaxCelestis.jpg (http://twitter.com/FaxCelestis)

So I find myself not satisfied with how 4.0 turned out: it feels different, to me, than how D&D should feel. The powers etc. make for a well-balanced, interesting game, but I personally find that the level of customization and structure inherent within the 3.5 game to be superior. That's not to say that 3.5 is without flaws: far from it.

But that's where this thread comes in.

I am going to recodify the d20 system (that is, the 3.5 rules available in the SRD under the OGL) into a cohesive system that is simple to use and is more balanced for all players involved.

Why not Pathfinder? Well, that's a good question. The Pathfinder system is a healthy alternative to your standard 3.5 game, but it makes some design decisions that I don't particularly agree with and I don't feel it fixes everything that needs to be fixed.

That being said: here comes d20 Rebirth.

[Fax Celestis]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/d20v1.png
Table of Contents:

Races
Ameena
Dromite
Drow
Duergar
Dwarf
Elan
Elf
Gnome
Gnoll
Goblin
Half-Elf
Half-Giant
Half-Orc
Halfling
Hobgoblin
Human
Kobold
Lizardfolk
Maenad
Minotaur
Orc
Russiti
Satyr
Shifter
Xeph
Racial Classes
Aasimar (Celestial-touched)
Dragonblooded
Onori (Axiom-touched)
Phrenic (Psionic)
Sylvan (Fey-touched)
Tiefling (Fiend-touched)
Xel'gash (Anarch-touched)
Classes
Barbarian
Bard
Bladeweaver
Cartomancer
Cleric
Dreadnaught
Druid
Enlightened Devotee
Fencer
Hunter
Luckthief
Medium
Monk
Paladin
Psion (Egoist, Kineticist, Nomad, Seer, Shaper, Telepath)
Psychic Warrior
Ranger
Rogue
Sorcerer
Soulknife
Warlord
Wilder
Wizard (Abjurer, Conjurer, Enchanter, Invoker, Oracle, Transmuter)
Skills
Skill Sets

Acrobatics
Appraise
Athletics
Autohypnosis
Awareness
Bluff
Cartomancy
Concentration
Craft
Decipher Script
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Disguise
Handle Animal
Heal
Intimidate
Knowledge
Legerdemain
Perform
Profession
Psicraft
Ride
Sense Motive
Speak Language
Spellcraft
Stealth
Survival
Use Device
Removed or Altered Skills
Balance See Acrobatics
Climb See Athletics
Escape Artist See Acrobatics
Forgery See Legerdemain
Gather Information See Diplomacy
Hide See Stealth
Jump See Athletics
Listen See Awareness
Move Silently See Stealth
Open Lock See Disable Device
Search See Awareness
Sleight Of Hand See Legerdemain
Spot See Awareness
Swim See Athletics
Tumble See Acrobatics
Use Rope See Survival
Feats
Investing Feats (a variant on Perfecting Feats)
Racial Feats
Racial Feats II
Racial Feats III
Racial Feats IV
Description
Equipment
Aspect Items
Biblios
Librum
Combat
Magic
Cartomancy and Manipulating Fate
Mystic Backlash
The Power of Prayer
Mantles of Faith
Sorcery and Magic in the Blood
Wild Magic
Wizardry and the Schools of Magic
Abjuration
Conjuration
Divination
Enchantment
Evocation
Transmutation
Psionics
Spells
Monsters
Aboleth
Achaierai
Allip
Ameena
Angel
Animal
Animated Object
Ankheg
Aranea
Archon
Arrowhawk
Assassin Vine
Astral Construct
Athach
Avoral
Azer
Barghest
Basilisk
Behir
Belker
Blink Dog
Bodak
Brain Mole
Bralani
Bugbear
Bulette
Caller In Darkness
Celestial Creature
Centaur
Cerebrilith
Chaos Beast
Chimera
Choker
Chuul
Cloaker
Cockatrice
Couatl
Crysmal
Darkmantle
Delver
Demon
Derro
Destrachan
Devil
Devourer
Digester
Dinosaur
Dire Animal
Doppelganger
Dragon, True
Dragon Turtle
Dragonne
Drider
Dromite
Drow
Dryad
Duergar
Dwarf
Eagle, Giant
Elan
Elemental
Elf
Ethereal Filcher
Ethereal Marauder
Ettercap
Ettin
Fiendish Creature
Folugub
Formian
Frost Worm
Fungus
Gargoyle
Genie
Ghaele
Ghost
Ghoul
Giant
Gibbering Mouther
Girallon
Gnoll
Gnome
Goblin
Golem
Gorgon
Gray Glutton
Gray Render
Grick
Griffon
Grimlock
Hag
Half-Celestial
Half-Dragon
Half-Elf
Half-Fiend
Half-Giant
Half-Orc
Halfling
Harpy
Hell Hound
Hippogriff
Hobgoblin
Homunculus
Howler
Human
Hydra
Inevitable
Intellect Devourer
Invisible Stalker
Kobold
Kraken
Krenshar
Lamia
Lammasu
Leonal
Lich
Lillend
Living Spellseed
Lizardfolk
Locathah
Lycanthrope
Maenad
Magmin
Manticore
Medusa
Mephit
Merfolk
Mimic
Minotaur
Mohrg
Mummy
Naga
Neothelid
Night Hag
Nightmare
Nightshade
Nymph
Ogre
Ogre Mage
Ooze
Orc
Otyugh
Owl, Giant
Owlbear
Pegasus
Phantom Fungus
Phase Spider
Phasm
Planetouched
Phrenic
Phthisic
Pseudodragon
Psicrystal
Psion-Killer
Puppeteer
Purple Worm
Rakshasa
Rast
Ravid
Razor Boar
Remorhaz
Roc
Roper
Russiti
Rust Monster
Sahuagin
Salamander
Satyr
Scorpionfolk
Sea Cat
Shadow
Shifter
Shadow Mastiff
Shambling Mound
Shield Guardian
Shocker Lizard
Skeleton
Skum
Spectre
Sphinx
Spider Eater
Sprite
Stirge
Swarm
Tarrasque
Temporal Filcher
Tendriculos
Thoqqua
Thought Eater
Thought Slayer
Titan
Tojanida
Treant
Triton
Troglodyte
Troll
Udoroot
Unbodied
Unicorn
Vampire
Vargouille
Vermin
Wight
Will-O'-Wisp
Winged Weapon
Winter Wolf
Worg
Wraith
Wyvern
Xeph
Xill
Xorn
Yeth Hound
Yrthak
Zombie

[Zeta Kai]

Wow. Just wow. I can already tell that this is going to be mind-bogglingly ambitious. More power to you, Fax. If you need any assistance, let me know. I eagerly await what promises to be an epic mega-post.

[Fax Celestis]

Wow. Just wow. I can already tell that this is going to be mind-bogglingly ambitious. More power to you, Fax. If you need any assistance, let me know. I eagerly await what promises to be an epic mega-post.

This thread may well rival one of yours in hugeness. :smalltongue:

[insecure]

Wait... So all the "How-it-should-be" classes were only for the purpose of this thread?

Wow.

[Zeta Kai]

This thread may well rival one of yours in hugeness. :smalltongue:

Well, when/if I ever run out of FFX D20 material, then you'll have a good benchmark for my maximum output on a single topic. I wish you luck & good will, & I lend my services, should they be required.

BTW, nice new avatar.

[afroakuma]

He has transformed! A new era begins!

[Fax Celestis]

Wait... So all the "How-it-should-be" classes were only for the purpose of this thread?

Wow.

I have been plotting this a very long time indeed.

[insecure]

I have been plotting this a very long time indeed.

Mwuahahahahahaha....
I guess. :P

[Copacetic]

Me Like.

I eagerly await what you are going to 'brew for this.:smallsmile:

[Shadow_Elf]

I would consider learning 3.X edition to try this when its done. The reason I never liked was because it was too, well, confusing. I mean Use Rope? C'mon. But this is awesome.
Also, I think 4e's customizability will increase with splatbooks (was 3e as flexible as it is today 6 months after it came out?). Just throwin' that out there.

[afroakuma]

I would consider learning 3.X edition to try this when its done.

Hah! We got him!

[Zeta Kai]

Hah! We got him!

Aargh! I knew we would, matey! Yo-ho!
I don't know why, but the pirate accent is somehow appropriate.

[Pirate_King]

An ambitious project, indeed, and you may pull a very good fix, but what you want to keep, that is, the versatility, is essentially what makes 3.x so breakable. 4e basically did recodify the system. The mechanics are essentially the same, with the exception of the spell casting system. Instead of full attacks, you have more powerful things that can be used once per encounter or once per day. What the game is missing is non-combat classes, but in that way, almost every class is a non-combat class. I was in the minority that appreciated bards and the like, anyway. But blast it, I don't mean to beat a dead horse; I still haven't really even reached the point where I prefer one system or another, myself. I'm sure this massive project will come up with some happy medium between 4e's power balance and 3.5's versatility.

[Fax Celestis]

'm sure this massive project will come up with some happy medium between 4e's power balance and 3.5's versatility.

That is exactly the intent, frankly. I find 4e too limiting (esp. due to the removal of PrCs and similar; even 2e had kits) and find 3.5e too abusable.

But I also like 3.5e more, not the least of which is that 3.5e is covered under the OGL, while 4e is under the vastly more restrictive SGL.

[SurlySeraph]

I definitely would prefer to play a 3.75 than 4E, so I fully support this project. Just make sure to fix the drowning rules, okay?

[Shadow_Elf]

Hah! We got him!

Damn! I've been caught!
*Crushes Plane-Throwing Ceramic Ball*
You win this time Old Man Willow! (http://onering.legendaryfrog.com/movies_orthp1_w.php)

[LordZarth]

Aargh! I knew we would, matey! Yo-ho!


It's 'Arr' :D

[Starsinger]

I have to say, I'm really fond of your Cartomancer class and would love to see it finished. Also, since this sounds like you're trying to fix 3.5 maybe you'll fix what I hate about it, in which case I wish this endeavor the beast of luck.

[RTGoodman]

Well, this certainly is a big project. I wish you all the best, and I'll try to keep up and offer any advice I think might be appreciated. Of course, I can't really find any 3.x games and have been doing mostly 4E stuff recently, but I'll still try to take a look every once and a while.


[...] in which case I wish this endeavor the beast of luck.

:smalleek: Sounds like something someone should get to homebrewing... :smalltongue:


(Also, "Celestial-touched" seems dirty to me, somehow... :smallbiggrin:)

[LurkerInPlayground]

I don't see a fighter remake on this thread. I hear people griping how fighter feats really suck and how a lot of special combat actions are simply broken

Just out of personal preference I would like to see a fighter that isn't fixed by giving it a whole bunch of magic or a bunch of powers that might as well be called "magic." Likewise, I find it extremely stupid that there's a class separate from the fighter called the "samurai."

I also find it equally stupid that there is a "ninja" class, even though you have rogues, assassins and rangers already. It would be nice to play a ninja archetype simply by picking the right selections of feats and abilities for a rogue.

But people tend to dismiss my opinion in this regard, so you know. Whatever.

[RTGoodman]

I don't see a fighter remake on this thread. I hear people griping how fighter feats really suck and how a lot of special combat actions are simply broken.

*Pokes and indicates the Warlord link above* That's what you're looking for - it's Fax's Fighter FixTM that makes the Fighter into a leader of men ALONGSIDE being a good melee combatant.

[Ivius]

How compatible do you intend to be with 3.5?

(Also, +1 for good luck!)

[Meek]

A Pathfinder alternative would be excellent, as even though I don't play 3.5 anymore, I keep up with Pathfinder and strongly disagree on a lot of things they are doing (and what they aren't doing) to make it better. Though some things they did very well (Dragon Disciple, and points pools for Monk and Barbarian abilities, though they should have gone farther and given points pools to the Paladin too). I wish you the best of luck.

[Icewalker]

:smalleek: Sounds like something someone should get to homebrewing... :smalltongue:

Beast of Luck...yeah, homebrew is the first thing that came to my mind as well. Probably won't be doing it myself though.

Yeah, this looks like an awesome project. So, the basic plan is to rework balance and the overall options of 3.x, rather than rewriting the actual game mechanics, at least for the most part, right? This would make it pretty much fully compatible with 3.5 creations/homebrew.

I'm quite interested, and if I ever have the time, I'd love to help you playtest this stuff. I could probably write up some quick adventures, or adapt ones I'm working to to have Rebirth equivalents.

[LurkerInPlayground]

*Pokes and indicates the Warlord link above* That's what you're looking for - it's Fax's Fighter FixTM that makes the Fighter into a leader of men ALONGSIDE being a good melee combatant.
No, I mean a fighter. A guy who smashes stuff and does it well. I won't bite the "just play a warrior" quip. A player should be able to play a guy who relies on hitting things well without having to play a class that's non-heroic by definition. You know, a character that you're supposed to be able to play it straight out of PhB without it being broken.

[UserClone]

I have to agree with Lurker, actually. That warlord is not a fighter, he's a warlord. I want a guy whose whole schtick is hitting things, and the variability from one to the other being how they go about it. Warlord as a single set of build choices on a fighter is fine by me. but doesn't adequately do the job that WoTC attempted to (and failed).

[Shadow_Elf]

Play a Barbarian?

[UserClone]

But the barbarian is really just a fighter whose schtick is that his combat prowess comes from his rage. with 1 extra hp/level and a bit of DR.

[Icewalker]

You can always fluff a barbarian's rage as entering a combat ready meditation-esque battle something or other. If you don't want to be 'that angry guy.'

[UserClone]

That's the problem though is the fluff. The fighter doesn't need it hardwired into his class features like that. Modularity is the only thing he had going. Now if you don't use those features you are no better off than the regular fighter, so where's my combat-tricks guy? It's pretty unsatisfying. Fax's ideas on the whole are great, mind.

[Zeta Kai]

Yes, modularity is the classic Fighter's one saving grace. This is true. But many people prefer to have a class with one path that works well, rather than have a class with many paths that work poorly.

I believe that this is what Fax has done with the Fighter, & it's an admirable piece of work.

[UserClone]

I am just glad he called it Warlord, because it is good, but not what I think of when I hear "fighter".

[Fax Celestis]

No, I mean a fighter. A guy who smashes stuff and does it well. I won't bite the "just play a warrior" quip. A player should be able to play a guy who relies on hitting things well without having to play a class that's non-heroic by definition. You know, a character that you're supposed to be able to play it straight out of PhB without it being broken.

That'll be the Dreadnaught.

[UserClone]

Interesting. Should I take it then, that there will be no "Generic Fighter" instead breaking the class up into several facets, each of which is as focused and balanced as the Warlord?

[Draz74]

Dang, now this will become the Big Daddy of all "3.75" systems, and no one will ever pay attention to mine. :smallfrown:

Well, we'll see. I still think mine is a bigger ... shift in the fundamentals in the game, and I like it more for that reason. Fax's homebrews, while good, just don't go far enough for my taste. :smallamused:

(FlWiPig: Mine has a generic warrior class that you'd like! But then, all classes in my system are generic, so what'dya expect?

Base Classes: Warrior, Rogue, Mage, Commoner
Advanced Classes: Trickster, Spellsword, Scout, Adept, Juggernaut, Expert)

[Fax Celestis]

Interesting. Should I take it then, that there will be no "Generic Fighter" instead breaking the class up into several facets, each of which is as focused and balanced as the Warlord?

Correct. There is no "Mage" class, per se: instead, there is a Wizard, a Sorceror, a Cartomancer, a Druid, and a Cleric. The "Fighter" type should have similar permutations.

[afroakuma]

I'd question the Cartomancer's place in a core system, except that I like it. :smallbiggrin:

[Fax Celestis]

I'd question the Cartomancer's place in a core system, except that I like it. :smallbiggrin:

The Cartomancer is going in as "core" for two reasons: one, it's my baby. :smalltongue:

The second reason is far more reasonable: it provides a non-Vancian core solution to magic. I'd use the Warlock, but it's not OGL. Same with Binders and Incarnum. So, to provide an "enduring" style of magic (a la warlocks and binders all-day capabilities), I felt that including the Cartomancer was a valid concept.

[afroakuma]

Valid and fair, Fax.

[Starsinger]

The Cartomancer is going in as "core" for two reasons: one, it's my baby. :smalltongue:

May I question something about your baby? The base DC for the 1d4 firebolt is 18. The base DC for the 1d4 electro-jolt is 15. Given the prevalence of fire immunity/resistance shouldn't fire be easier to use than electricity? Is this just a mistake? Is this on purpose? As someone truly interested in the class I'm curious (and don't wanna necromance the cartomancer thread itself with the question)

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Okay, some posts regarding Fax's cartomancer were moved to here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92729). Hope that doesn't cause too much confusion. :smallamused:

[Fax Celestis]

Minor changes to the ToC. Idea based off of my Perfecting Feats system, centered around receiving Feat Points (bad name, but it works for now) each level, with which you invest into feats to improve their effects. Max Cap for a feat invest is your BAB.

[magic_unlocked]

This is an interesting thread. If you need any help, i'll be glad to be of service. Anyhow, I commend you on this task, it's pretty big. x.x

[WaterTengu]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Okay, some posts regarding Fax's cartomancer were moved to here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92729). Hope that doesn't cause too much confusion. :smallamused:

wow, that was weird.

[magic_unlocked]

Maybe he wanted to organise the thread/s better? o_O

[Neek]

I'm glad to see you're finally doing this, and I back you whole-heartedly in this endeavor.

I am curious, are we going to see Complete Commoner ranking in the gamemaster's book as well? Or are we not that far yet?

[thegurullamen]

Why not Pathfinder? Well, that's a good question. The Pathfinder system is a healthy alternative to your standard 3.5 game, but it makes some design decisions that I don't particularly agree with and I don't feel it fixes everything that needs to be fixed.

Very diplomatic. Nicely done.

I think I love this just because of the Luckthief. Best teamplayer I've seen on these boards in a great while.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm glad to see you're finally doing this, and I back you whole-heartedly in this endeavor.

I am curious, are we going to see Complete Commoner ranking in the gamemaster's book as well? Or are we not that far yet?

It may. I'm torn on it, because there's some kinks in it that I'm not quite satisfied with (such as an interaction with child characters), but it may go in eventually.

My next task is redoing the Dreadnaught.


wow, that was weird.

I asked for it simply because I didn't want Cartomancy overtaking this thread.

[Neek]

It may. I'm torn on it, because there's some kinks in it that I'm not quite satisfied with (such as an interaction with child characters), but it may go in eventually.

I specifically left child characters out for a reason :smallwink:. The Complete Commoner didn't change too drastically when I reduxed it, only altered a few of the job classes and gave them BABs. Child characters are fun, but I think the concept is too much of a campaign niche that doesn't deserve a system-wide treatment.

Though I am curious to see this Dreadnought...

[Draz74]

Though I am curious to see this Dreadnought...

Yes, that may be what I am most curious to see out of the whole Fax Rebirth.

[StormingMarcus]

OMG! Thumbs up for this project!

[Fax Celestis]

Added link to Dreadnaught.

[Zeta Kai]

Added link to Dreadnaught.

Dreadnaughts are rad. Never you mind those ToB-addled haters. I loves them for their potent simplicity.

[thegurullamen]

Dreadnaughts are rad. Never you mind those ToB-addled haters. I loves them for their potent simplicity.

I concur. The Dread is the only melee class I've wanted to play for the past year that isn't ToB. And it captures the shamanic warrior idea much better than the barbarian. And Rage too, come to think of it.

Barb: I Rage, dealing 2 more points of damage per hit and getting hit more often because I'm reckless.
Dread: I hit a guy for 2 more points of damage from Power Attack and knock his ass back ten feet after slamming him three feet into the ground.

Bit more descriptive.

[afroakuma]

Only non-ToB base melee class I've liked recently was my own Samurai, as far as equivalence went. Dread's now on that list.

[Fax Celestis]

Added link to (preliminary) Investing Feats.

[afroakuma]

Which are also interesting.

[Ziegander]

Dreadnaughts are rad. Never you mind those ToB-addled haters. I loves them for their potent simplicity.

*Rolls eyes*

Because options are bad, and making a class that literally only hits things all day is good. Sorry for trying to be constructive.

[afroakuma]

Options are good. The feats and martial attribution are the Dreadnought's options.

[Starsinger]

Speaking of hitting things, Fax, did you plan on making blasting an attractive option for spellcasters in this d20 Rebirth?

[Vic_Sage]

Speaking of hitting things, Fax, did you plan on making blasting an attractive option for spellcasters in this d20 Rebirth?
This was actually going to be my next question :smallbiggrin:.

[Fax Celestis]

Speaking of hitting things, Fax, did you plan on making blasting an attractive option for spellcasters in this d20 Rebirth?

I'm hoping my sorceror rewrite will handle that. I'm planning on making the majority of the sorceror's class features center around altering the effects of his spells--damage type, area of effect/shape, etc. I'm not sure if I'll use a spell-level adjustment system, an extra-slot expenditure system, or potentially some alternative (like voluntary aging, alternate components, casting-time extension, etc.).

[Vic_Sage]

One little question, how are you going to handle things like LA or are you just going to get rid of that system all togther?

[Fax Celestis]

One little question, how are you going to handle things like LA or are you just going to get rid of that system all togther?

That's one of my things I'm trying to determine how to handle, and I haven't posted any thoughts on it because I'm pushing it back until later: it's a big topic, and not something I particularly relish dealing with at this point in time.

[Lappy9000]

How did I just notice this....?

I-I am impressed with your mettle, Fax. This promises to be a super project, and you've already done some spectacular stuff.

I eagerly await the day when in some thread I can say, "Well sure, 4e was okay, but 3.Fax was much better."
...FaxE
...Fax.0
...Fax's Edition
...or just be boring and say d20r like the cool kids :smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

How did I just notice this....?

I-I am impressed with your mettle, Fax. This promises to be a super project, and you've already done some spectacular stuff.

I eagerly await the day when in some thread I can say, "Well sure, 4e was okay, but 3.Fax was much better."
...FaxE
...Fax.0
...Fax's Edition
...or just be boring and say d20r like the cool kids :smalltongue:

3.5e = 3.5 edition.
3.5f = 3.5 Fax's edition?

[Gralamin]

I just noticed this thread, and I have to say the best of luck. I'm one of those strange people willing to play multiple systems, so I expect I'll be playing this and 4E.

Now to go through every thread and give comments (well, every thread that wouldn't cause thread necromancy).

Also, are you going to release a pdf or similar compilation document when your done? I'd love to have an electronic document I could just bring to the campus printers to have printed.

[Fax Celestis]

I just noticed this thread, and I have to say the best of luck. I'm one of those strange people willing to play multiple systems, so I expect I'll be playing this and 4E.

Now to go through every thread and give comments (well, every thread that wouldn't cause thread necromancy).

Also, are you going to release a pdf or similar compilation document when your done? I'd love to have an electronic document I could just bring to the campus printers to have printed.

I'm planning on it. Also, remember that thread-necromancy isn't as frowned upon in Homebrew as it is in other fora. Post away.

[Ziegander]

3.Fax should definitely be the shorthand term for d20 Rebirth. :D

[Starsinger]

3.Fax should definitely be the shorthand term for d20 Rebirth. :D

I like 3.F

[Gralamin]

Massive comments posts done. Didn't post on the paladin or rogue because I've commented on them before.

A few of your posts could also use some <br> changed to [br] and some <hr> changed to [hr]

edit: I have no idea why, but they changed when I posted. Fixed though.

[CasESenSITItiVE]

in the case where you have an option which is not a link, does that mean you won't be changing it, or that you haven't gotten around to it yet.

for example, the bard is not a link. does this mean you will be using the 3.5 bard, or that you haven't rewritten the bard yet

[Daracaex]

in the case where you have an option which is not a link, does that mean you won't be changing it, or that you haven't gotten around to it yet.

for example, the bard is not a link. does this mean you will be using the 3.5 bard, or that you haven't rewritten the bard yet

He's still getting around to most of it. Think of the table of contents as a preview of what's to come.

[Eighth_Seraph]

I'm hoping my sorceror rewrite will handle that. I'm planning on making the majority of the sorceror's class features center around altering the effects of his spells--damage type, area of effect/shape, etc. I'm not sure if I'll use a spell-level adjustment system, an extra-slot expenditure system, or potentially some alternative (like voluntary aging, alternate components, casting-time extension, etc.).
The best idea I've ever seen for fun and flavorful casting was the "cast as much as you dare" system. Similar to your Cartomancer's non-lethal damage, but using Fortitude saves. Also, failing a fortitude save when casting a spell could lead to penalties on Fortitude saves, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Con damage, and eventually Death. Depending on which angle you approach the sorcerer from, that may be an option.

Just, please, kill Vancian magic. Kill it with fire.

[Draz74]

3.Fax should definitely be the shorthand term for d20 Rebirth. :D

*adds vote*


The best idea I've ever seen for fun and flavorful casting was the "cast as much as you dare" system. Similar to your Cartomancer's non-lethal damage, but using Fortitude saves. Also, failing a fortitude save when casting a spell could lead to penalties on Fortitude saves, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Con damage, and eventually Death. Depending on which angle you approach the sorcerer from, that may be an option.

Just, please, kill Vancian magic. Kill it with fire.

I think that Fax has said that, Cartomancer aside, he will largely be clinging to Vancian magic. Sorry!

... I, on the other hand, am making a D&D system that kills Vancian magic. With fire. Along with any other "per-day" abilities that cause "the 15-minute workday" syndrome.

If you'd like to help me out with mine -- and I probably need more help than Fax :smallredface: -- let me know, and I'll be glad to toss at you what I've come up with so far about magic systems and get some feedback. I'd like to get more details on this "cast as much as you dare" system and where you got it from, too.

[WaterTengu]

i am sorry, i am still getting used to certain words, what is vancian magic?

[Samurai Jill]

i am sorry, i am still getting used to certain words, what is vancian magic?
Spell allowances, per spell level, per day, per caster level, per caster class, per character. Yes, all at once.

Draz, I'd like to see you generic-classless system and whatever spellcasting you've come up with. I think Burning Wheel's system is quite similar to what 8thSeraph describes.

[Vic_Sage]

i am sorry, i am still getting used to certain words, what is vancian magic?
The terrible, terrible, terrible system all Spellcasters use for spells.

[Samurai Jill]

And yes, Burn it with Fire.

[UserClone]

Personally, I think that straight-up Vancian spellcasting is great for Wizards (only), but it should be more difficult for them to learn boatloads of spells. In games I have played, my Wizard never got a chance to learn spells beyond the ones gained at level up (making Collegiate Wizard much more attractive).
All other spellcasters should be using something else. I like spell points for Sorcerers, and Spirit Shaman-esque casting (spontaneous, and choose your spells known for the day) for divine casters.

Edit: and I like the Cartomancer's version better than any of those.

[Vic_Sage]

So I was looking through the classes that are up so far adn I love basically all of them, but one thing bugs me about the Paladin, specifcally when he's evil, he can only heal himself, to me this is just stupid, just because your evil doesn't mean your a selfish jerk who only heals himself and just deals damage to others with Lay on Hands. Yeah I can easily houserule it but I just felt like saying something.

/Rant

On the postive side, I absolutely love the Cartomancer.

[magic_unlocked]

Indeed, options are good. But, isn't it all those options that made 3.5e rather... broken?

[Ziegander]

Indeed, options are good. But, isn't it all those options that made 3.5e rather... broken?

Options don't break a game. Broken options break a game.

... Well, that and a game entirely focused (that is built from the ground up), in fact like an obsessive lover, on spellcasting and magic items, both of which are more powerful than anything else in the game.

[magic_unlocked]

Ah, yes, those are true. But, what really inhibits PCs from making aforementioned magic items, is the truly massive creation time. Which, it's always easier to buy. For example, it'll take 200 days to create a single +10 weapon adn 8,000 XP. >_>

But I guess high-level characters can shrug it off.

[Fax Celestis]

Updated top listing. Expect the following:

Alteration of Wizard class to be more like the Psion. It'll still have spell slots per day, so no dice there. However, it will get a number of at-will powers (to prevent crossbow-dependency) spread over its class progression. It will also force specialization in the same fashion of the psion.

Schools of magic will change, also, to Abjuration, Conjuration, Destruction, and Transmutation. With magic, you will either be protecting something, creating something, destroying something, or changing something. Wizards will also suffer a chance of fatigue when casting repeatedly--but not when casting sporadically.

The Sorceror class, on the other hand, will be allowed to gain a more limited number of spells across all schools--however, his spells have a chance of having unintended effects. A sorceror's magic is natural, not learned, and is therefore not as finely tuned as that of a wizard: as such, his spells don't always work exactly the way they're supposed to.

Divine-casting classes, like the paladin, cleric, and druid, will use a Mantle of Faith system, presented initially in the paladin class. Clerics and paladins will share mantles, but clerics will get them at a reduced rate and will have weaker results from their use than paladins. Druids will use a different list (possibly with some crossover) that is more naturally-oriented.

[Starsinger]

So I was looking through the classes that are up so far adn I love basically all of them, but one thing bugs me about the Paladin, specifcally when he's evil, he can only heal himself, to me this is just stupid, just because your evil doesn't mean your a selfish jerk who only heals himself and just deals damage to others with Lay on Hands. Yeah I can easily houserule it but I just felt like saying something.

/Rant

On the postive side, I absolutely love the Cartomancer.

I agree completely.

[Draz74]

Alteration of Wizard class to be more like the Psion. [snip]It will also force specialization in the same fashion of the psion.
Very good choice. And interesting interaction with:


Schools of magic will change, also, to Abjuration, Conjuration, Destruction, and Transmutation. With magic, you will either be protecting something, creating something, destroying something, or changing something.
This I am interested to see. Intriguing concept.


Wizards will also suffer a chance of fatigue when casting repeatedly--but not when casting sporadically.

This seems to be a popular trend among new magic systems these days, including mine ...

[magic_unlocked]

It rather does, I think. I haven't looked at the new casters (not yet, I just woke up :smalltongue:) but perhaps he tied bonus... "mana"? to the caster's constitution modifier?

[Zeta Kai]

However, it will get a number of at-will powers (to prevent crossbow-dependency) spread over its class progression...

...Wizards will also suffer a chance of fatigue when casting repeatedly--but not when casting sporadically.

So, you're gonna make the Wizard into a Bio-Mage? :smallbiggrin:

[Fax Celestis]

So, you're gonna make the Wizard into a Bio-Mage? :smallbiggrin:

Similar, yeah.

[afroakuma]

Ah, Zeta, you just got to it first.
Or Final Fantasy IV did.

Or, you know, Dragonlance.

[magic_unlocked]

So, you're gonna make the Wizard into a Bio-Mage? :smallbiggrin:

Zeta Kai, didn't you make something called the bio-mage?

[afroakuma]

That was him, yeah. Hence the referencing.

[magic_unlocked]

I figured that. I liked the class.

[Zeta Kai]

I figured that. I liked the class.

So do I. That's why it's still in my sig. :smallbiggrin:

[magic_unlocked]

LOL, i never noticed it. I s'pose I have no ranks in Spot...

[Fax Celestis]

Schools of magic will change, also, to Abjuration, Conjuration, Destruction, and Transmutation. With magic, you will either be protecting something, creating something, destroying something, or changing something.

Status: Alphabetically, through core spells, at F. Altered "Destruction"s name to "Evocation", and the base class's name from Undoer to Invoker.

[Morty]

So, your Wanderer(I think) base class isn't going to be included in this project? I remember that it was preety good.

[magic_unlocked]

I look forward to see how the casters come about. As well as magic in general. I have a question for you, Fax, are you going to include Psionics into this thing?

[Fax Celestis]

So, your Wanderer(I think) base class isn't going to be included in this project? I remember that it was preety good.

Right. I see it as "supplemental" material. A version of the Privateer may come over as a "finesse fighter", but that'll have to wait for the finishing of the Dreadnaught class.


I look forward to see how the casters come about. As well as magic in general. I have a question for you, Fax, are you going to include Psionics into this thing?
I am.

As for starting magic, this is where I'm currently at. I'll start with the Wizard, then see where I'm at.

[magic_unlocked]

Ah, i'll take a look at the post.

[Fax Celestis]

Added link to Aspect Items.

[Kroy]

I just noticed this thread. I completely agree with you, 4th edition changed the feel of the game into something (IMO) unlike D&D. If you want any assistance, let me know.

[Fax Celestis]

Link to dromites added. Placeholder for Fencer class added.

[WaterTengu]

hmm, i like your dromites, but why does the fire-caste have hunter as their preferred class rather than a psionic one.

[Draco Dracul]

hmm, i like your dromites, but why does the fire-caste have hunter as their preferred class rather than a psionic one.

Hunters have psionic powers.

[WaterTengu]

Hunters have psionic powers.

they do, oops, i forgot. i thought they were just range-based fighters.

[Fax Celestis]

Updated ToC with link to Drow.

[Glooble Glistencrist]

I'm watching this project with great interest...

I will lend assistance by making item aspects until I get bored with them.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm watching this project with great interest...

I will lend assistance by making item aspects until I get bored with them.

I have a starter list if you want it.

Acid Aspect
Air Aspect
Cavern Aspect
Chaos Aspect
Darkness Aspect
Death Aspect
Desert Aspect
Earth Aspect
Electricity Aspect
Evil Aspect
Fire Aspect
Forest Aspect
Fury Aspect
Good Aspect
Hatred Aspect
Health Aspect
Ice Aspect
Law Aspect
Luck Aspect
Learning Aspect
Madness Aspect
Moon Aspect
Mountain Aspect
Nature Aspect
Ocean Aspect
Psionics Aspect
Sonic Aspect
Spellborne Aspect
Stalker Aspect
Stealth Aspect
Sun Aspect
Trickery Aspect
War Aspect
Water Aspect
Undeath Aspect

[Glooble Glistencrist]

I'm actually working on Plant and Vermin aspects right now, but I will refer to the list thereafter.

These are fun.

[Fax Celestis]

Sorry for the derail, but the Fax Encyclopedicus link in your sig is broken.

Ah, that's cuz it goes to the old one. Here's the new link (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/), and I'll update my sig.

[Bonecrusher Doc]

Perhaps when you are "done" with this project you could publish it as a PDF or something?

[Fax Celestis]

Perhaps when you are "done" with this project you could publish it as a PDF or something?

That's the plan.

[WaterTengu]

Perhaps when you are "done" with this project you could publish it as a PDF or something?

Or as an actual book, i know a wonderful publisher who loves your system so far. He calls it "version 3.5 on steroids".

[Fax Celestis]

Or as an actual book, i know a wonderful publisher who loves your system so far. He calls it "version 3.5 on steroids".

Oh reeeeeeeeally. Excellent. I was considering using Lulu.com, but I wanted to get further into the process before I started checking that stuff out.

[WaterTengu]

Oh reeeeeeeeally. Excellent. I was considering using Lulu.com, but I wanted to get further into the process before I started checking that stuff out.

I have heard great things about lulu.com, but i have also heard very bad things. it is self-publishing, so you don't have to deal with a bad publisher. but it self-publishing, so you don't have the things that a publisher can do for you and that they have experiance in (such as negotiating with stores and such things).

[Fax Celestis]

Added link to skill sets.

[Willfor]

Gestalting high skill classes may break the skill system's synergy effect, though you've likely already thought of a way to prevent that from happening. (Alternatively, gestalt characters are supposed to be that powerful anyway...)

Anyway, I am enjoying how this is progressing. Especially the speed met with the quality. It has been very nice to keep tabs on. :smallsmile:

Edit: And in hindsight, it might have been better to actually post this in the relevant thread...

[WaterTengu]

ok, so i have heard that word a lot, what is gestalt? I know it is from Unearthed Arcana, but i don't own Unearthed Arcana.

[Neek]

ok, so i have heard that word a lot, what is gestalt? I know it is from Unearthed Arcana, but i don't own Unearthed Arcana.

It's available on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm).

[WaterTengu]

It's available on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm).

see, now i was looking there and couldn't find it. ugh, i am blind.

[Fax Celestis]

Fencer 80% complete.

[Heliomance]

When do we get to see the How-It-Should-Be Ranger? It's an archetype I love - I want to see a martial class that's as nature orientated as the Druid!

[Fax Celestis]

When I get struck with the Holy Bolt of Inspiration, the Ranger will be formulated.

Right now, though, I'm looking at the Dread Commando and asking myself how I could stretch it into 20 levels.

[UserClone]

If you manage to do that, I'll be forced to give you an internet, sir!

[Morty]

I'm waiting eagerly for the Fencer class, I've got a soft spot for quick and agile warriors.
Also, are there going to be separate NPC classes?

[Bonecrusher Doc]

With Fencer and Ranger coming up, I'm holding my breath to see what, if any, changes you will make to Two-Weapon fighting. It's such a cool style, whether with one standard weapon and one light, or with two standard weapons, or two light weapons; but I've found frequently when I make a character with it I get so frustrated missing all the time that I just go back to one weapon, with a wasted feat. (Admittedly I'm a rookie, never played any higher level stuff so maybe it gets better - it just seems underpowered to me at the low levels I've played.)

[UserClone]

Nah, it never really gets any better, unless you are a rogue who focuses on sneak attacking in melee. I've always thought that the penalties should gradually disappear as you go up in level, like with the monk's flurry. Perhaps lower the overall penalty each time they advance in TWF, Fax? Once for Improved, once for Greater (Superior?)

[WaterTengu]

Nah, it never really gets any better, unless you are a rogue who focuses on sneak attacking in melee. I've always thought that the penalties should gradually disappear as you go up in level, like with the monk's flurry. Perhaps lower the overall penalty each time they advance in TWF, Fax? Once for Improved, once for Greater (Superior?)

i always rulled that each further feat lowered the peanlties by 2
so TWF = -4/-4
improved = -2/-2
Greater = 0/0
Superior = +2/+2

[UserClone]

I don't know that I necessarily think you should EVER get a bonus for using more than one weapon; it should be more difficult than using just one, hence the penalty, but you should get used to it, hence the reduction thereof. However, you shouldn't fight better for using two weapons over one based solely on using two weapons. That is the purview of a prestige class ability, or at minimum, a feat unto itself, IMO.

[WaterTengu]

but many people i know who participate in martial arts have told me that at a certain point it becomes difficult to not attack with two weapons of some kind. besides, superior TWF is a eic fet isn't it?

[Heliomance]

No, perfect TWF is the epic one.

[WaterTengu]

then what does superior TWF do?

[Juhn]

Right now, though, I'm looking at the Dread Commando and asking myself how I could stretch it into 20 levels.

I heartily support any course of action that involves the Dread Commando. That PrC has always intrigued me.

[Knaight]

Superior two weapon fighting allows for two attacks. That said it makes sense that epic two weapon fighting would allow for a bonus to attacks, as the second weapon can be used to open up opportunities for the first and vice versa.

[Fax Celestis]

Two things:
1. TWF has already changed in the Investing Feats system. The more prowess you invest in it, the better your two-weapon combat becomes
2. In re: Ranger
"Combat Styles" are gone, as they seem to be a concept that doesn't really fit with the rest of the class.
Favored Enemies are gone too, replaced by Favored Terrains.
Animal Companion is getting moved to the Druid progression to compensate for it's removal from the Druid class.
Spellcasting remains, but at the 1:1 caster level gain rate (and with the progression on the d20r Paladin).
Camouflage and HiPS are getting moved up and Sneak Attack is being added to make for a much more "ambusher"-type feel.

There's some other changes too, but that's the foundation so far.

[Morty]

Looks like my question got lost in other inquiries, so I repeat it: will there be NPC classes in this project? If so, what will they look like?

[Fax Celestis]

Looks like my question got lost in other inquiries, so I repeat it: will there be NPC classes in this project? If so, what will they look like?

NPCs will likely use the Complete Commoner system that I originally developed and neek is now in the process of revamping.

[Morty]

NPCs will likely use the Complete Commoner system that I originally developed and neek is now in the process of revamping.

As I suspected. I do have a question about this system though, namely how is CR of the commoners handled. Either I missed it or it hasn't been specified.

[Fax Celestis]

As I suspected. I do have a question about this system though, namely how is CR of the commoners handled. Either I missed it or it hasn't been specified.

CR for commoners using that system should be 1/2 ECL.

[Morty]

CR for commoners using that system should be 1/2 ECL.

So how would, let's say, a 1/2 CR city guardsman look like? Judging from what you've said, it'd be a 1st level commoner, because a commoner can't select a job, in this case probably "Watchman" until 3rd level. Am I missing something?

[Fax Celestis]

So how would, let's say, a 1/2 CR city guardsman look like? Judging from what you've said, it'd be a 1st level commoner, because a commoner can't select a job, in this case probably "Watchman" until 3rd level. Am I missing something?

Nope, that's pretty much it.

[Morty]

Nope, that's pretty much it.

2 + Con modifier hit points and +0 BAB seem a bit low to put up a fight, though. Especially since d20R classes are a bit tougher than Core ones.

[Fax Celestis]

2 + Con modifier hit points and +0 BAB seem a bit low to put up a fight, though. Especially since d20R classes are a bit tougher than Core ones.

Wait, I'm forgetting my own system. An NPC with one level of Commoner is a toddler, two is a youth, and three is a teenager. Four NPC levels make a working adult.

[Morty]

Wait, I'm forgetting my own system. An NPC with one level of Commoner is a toddler, two is a youth, and three is a teenager. Four NPC levels make a working adult.

So, a 1/2 CR city watchman would have three levels of Commoner and one level of Watchman class that's yet to be statted out(at least I don't see it in the thread you linked to)?

[Fax Celestis]

So, a 1/2 CR city watchman would have three levels of Commoner and one level of Watchman class that's yet to be statted out(at least I don't see it in the thread you linked to)?

Correct. And it is statted out: scroll down.

[SilentNight]

then what does superior TWF do?

I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist, sorry.

[Morty]

Correct. And it is statted out: scroll down.

Indeed it is. I checked only the first post, so I missed it. Well, that'd give that guardsman 2 + 2d4 + 1d6 + 4x Con modifier HP(9+3x Con modifier on average) HP and +2 BAB. Which is in fact better than a 1st level warrior under the core rules.

[Fax Celestis]

Link to Fencer added.

[Bonecrusher Doc]

Favored Enemies are gone too, replaced by Favored Terrains.


This can't possibly be right. It makes way too much sense. For the first time, I'm interested in making a ranger character now!

[The Minx]

So I find myself not satisfied with how 4.0 turned out: it feels different, to me, than how D&D should feel. The powers etc. make for a well-balanced, interesting game, but I personally find that the level of customization and structure inherent within the 3.5 game to be superior. That's not to say that 3.5 is without flaws: far from it.

But that's where this thread comes in.

I am going to recodify the d20 system (that is, the 3.5 rules available in the SRD under the OGL) into a cohesive system that is simple to use and is more balanced for all players involved.

Why not Pathfinder? Well, that's a good question. The Pathfinder system is a healthy alternative to your standard 3.5 game, but it makes some design decisions that I don't particularly agree with and I don't feel it fixes everything that needs to be fixed.

That being said: here comes d20 Rebirth.

Just a quick comment to say "gosh, I wish I had your follow-through", since I had thought "how cool and appropriate would it be to revamp 3.5 and do it right in the light of 4.0?" And I never found the time to really get really into it. So, props to you. :smallsmile:

[Shadow_Elf]

Hey Fax, I had a question about Magic in d20r.
I had an idea for a 3.Xe homebrew (GASP!), but I figure if I make it for 3.5e, it'll be obsolete in a few months when d20r is done :smallwink:.
I'd make it for 4e, but its based around a concept that 4e is far too cool for: Arcane Spell Failure.
It was going to be an Arcane PrC that focused on reducing penalties from wearing heavy armor for casters, as well as gave them a little more competitive BAB and Fort saves.
Any suggestions on how to homebrew this for d20r?
Afro, Zeta, smirketh not - the only reason I'm not making this in 4e is because 4e is too cool for Arcane Spell Failures.

[Kroy]

I petty sure I convinced my local gaming group to playtest D20r sometime in the near future. My question is how long do you think we should wait so we can have a moderately complete ruleset/class options?

[Fax Celestis]

I petty sure I convinced my local gaming group to playtest D20r sometime in the near future. My question is how long do you think we should wait so we can have a moderately complete ruleset/class options?

You can start now, if you like, working with what I've got done and then switching rules as I get through them.

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, sorceror's finally done. Much thanks to ZeroNumerous, Edea, Neek, and Starsinger for their aid.

[Eldrys]

Okay Sirek is in my party and I have a question.

This party we're making has one noob and one semi-noob in it and i'm questioning wether this would be a good idea. I mean they have trouble choosing between elf and dwarf character... And one wants a barbarian/ Paladin/ Druid Gnome. Necromancers not even a core class! + the full on noob has been "studying" my 3.5 books and is pretty confused so d20 rebirth looks a lot more complicated.

[Fax Celestis]

Okay Sirek is in my party and I have a question.

This party we're making has one noob and one semi-noob in it and i'm questioning wether this would be a good idea. I mean they have trouble choosing between elf and dwarf character... And one wants a barbarian/ Paladin/ Druid Gnome. Necromancers not even a core class! + the full on noob has been "studying" my 3.5 books and is pretty confused so d20 rebirth looks a lot more complicated.

d20r does make the assumption, at this point, that you have a working knowledge of the d20 system, so it may be prudent for you to start them off with regular 3.5 characters and then swap them to d20r characters later. The classes should have no problem with each other.

[Boros]

Hi Fax- I was wondering how alignment would work in d20r. Would it be the good ol' alignment system of 3.5 and before? Or would it be that monstrosity that is called alignment in 4e? *shiver*

[Fax Celestis]

Hi Fax- I was wondering how alignment would work in d20r. Would it be the good ol' alignment system of 3.5 and before? Or would it be that monstrosity that is called alignment in 4e? *shiver*

We'll be largely sticking with 3.5 alignment, perhaps with some clarifications.

[Boros]

Gotcha, and thanks. I wait for the finalized project with bated breath.
Will you be updating the ToB classes to d20r?

[DrakebloodIV]

Hey Fax, I was wondering if you would be willing to put in some sort of Grappling class into D20r. As a high school wrestler, the rules for grappling just didn't do it for me in the normal D20 system. I also haven't found any class that incorporates more complex aspects efficiently. If you could make some class with take downs, arm bars, chokes, pins, shoulder throws, foot sweeps and the like I would be greatly thankful and incredibly impressed. Also, I would be glad to help you in any way I could.


EDIT- Also, how will you be taping together the (broken as broken can possibly be) deity stuff from normal 3.5ed

[Fax Celestis]

Grappling rules will be covered and converted. A grappler PrC will likely be in place, but there will not be a grappler base class (unless you count a dreadnaught who takes a grappler style feat).

As for deities, they will not be covered within the bounds of the "core material". They're Not Core, They're More™.

...or something like that.

[Morty]

Well, I've got another question about the Complete Commoner: how is a character with a NPC class taking a PC class handled? Does he simply add the abilities from his new PC class to the ones he got from the NPC levels? I had an idea that when an NPC takes a PC class which corresponds to his job -like, say, adept taking a level in Wizard- the existing NPC levels "transform" into half as much PC class levels.

[Vortling]

As for deities, they will not be covered within the bounds of the "core material". They're Not Core, They're More™.

...or something like that.

What does that mean for clerics as far as granted spells goes? Also darn you Fax, you've got me thinking about a redone cleric. I don't suppose you need any help making a cleric, do you?

[xanaphia]

What changes have been made to the system that would affect 3.5 edition monsters?

I was considering using the Vorpal Tribble's monsters and Fax's classes and rules.

[Fax Celestis]

What changes have been made to the system that would affect 3.5 edition monsters?

I was considering using the Vorpal Tribble's monsters and Fax's classes and rules.

Monsters, so far, have not changed, but they will be.

[Fax Celestis]

Added link to Living Spellseed Template. Massive updates to d20r Sorceror.

[Darksword]

I love this project Fax. You have done a great job, and the classes are very verstile, with their different "powers" (IE: The rouge has powers, several classes have psionics, The sorcer has spell seeds and so on). One question I notice that you did not have a part in the table for prc's, but you said and I qoute

That is exactly the intent, frankly. I find 4e too limiting (esp. due to the removal of PrCs and similar; even 2e had kits) and find 3.5e too abusable.

But I also like 3.5e more, not the least of which is that 3.5e is covered under the OGL, while 4e is under the vastly more restrictive SGL.
Whic make me ask will you be doing prcs.

[Fax Celestis]

I love this project Fax. You have done a great job, and the classes are very verstile, with their different "powers" (IE: The rouge has powers, several classes have psionics, The sorcer has spell seeds and so on). One question I notice that you did not have a part in the table for prc's, but you said and I qoute

Whic make me ask will you be doing prcs.

I will. I'm just waiting until I finish the base classes first.

[Fax Celestis]

Added links to Satyr and Goblin races.

[Lappy9000]

Well you've done it. You've finally done it. I'm going to ask my group what they think about advancing to d20r once the project gets finished :smallbiggrin:

I'm already utilizing your monk (an amazing fix), and while I'm not a fan of your paladin, simply for issues of personal taste, it's really the only thing I don't like.

I am especially impressed at how you're not just updating the core goodness, but other aspects such as psionics and, yes, even cartomancy. Truly, you confirm rumors of your Geek God deitydom.

(On a side note, it may have been mentioned already, but are there plans to publish d20r via Victorious Press? I'd buy that Player's Handbook. Two, actually)

[UserClone]

Provide that you price it in line with current book prices (i.e. $30-$50) AND commensurate with page count/print quality, I'd even be willing to pre-order one.

[vegetalss4]

so Fax did you drop the bard from this game or what?

[Fax Celestis]

so Fax did you drop the bard from this game or what?

Bard is awaiting some time so I can write up the Inspiration abilities, then the next (likely final) vote will take place.


(On a side note, it may have been mentioned already, but are there plans to publish d20r via Victorious Press? I'd buy that Player's Handbook. Two, actually)

It may be VP, it may be through some other means. I'm waiting to see where things are at when I'm closer to completion.

As far as book prices and book counts, I'm planning on making the PHB one book and putting the MM and the DMG together into another. I'll try to keep the prices around the $30 line, but again, that'll have to wait until I get closer to completion. Depending on prices, I may put out different versions at different price levels.

[Fax Celestis]

Added link to Lizardfolk.

[Fax Celestis]

Added link to humans.

[Cute_Riolu]

Ooh, I can't wait to see the racial feats for these guys.

[Lappy9000]

It may be VP, it may be through some other means. I'm waiting to see where things are at when I'm closer to completion.

As far as book prices and book counts, I'm planning on making the PHB one book and putting the MM and the DMG together into another. I'll try to keep the prices around the $30 line, but again, that'll have to wait until I get closer to completion. Depending on prices, I may put out different versions at different price levels.The important thing is: you're printing it :smallbiggrin:

[DrakebloodIV]

Heck, I'd buy it. And I'm normally the one to mooch off of quasi legal PDF's

[Morty]

I might buy it, or I might not. But somehow I doubt it'll be easy to get where I live when and if Fax releases it.

[DrakebloodIV]

I might buy it, or I might not. But somehow I doubt it'll be easy to get where I live when and if Fax releases it.

Don't doubt the power of the internet, dude.

[Frog Dragon]

Will you be using any kind of XP cost system? Just asking incase I need to revamp my replacement system to fit this system. (Because I can totally see myself changing systems when this is done. I just have a horrible aversion to XP loss systems.)

[Fax Celestis]

I'm going to try to avoid it.

[Lappy9000]

Oh yeah, Fax, I had a question after seeing the races with Barbarian as the Favored Class. Namely, how much are you changing everyone's favorite berserker? I've always thought of them as very nicely balanced and one of the most fun classes to play in the game (Option A: I go into Rage; Option B: I smash it with my greataxe).

I know you already said that you're changing up the druid a whole lot, but will the barbarian be a little tweak or a complete overhaul?

[Fax Celestis]

Oh yeah, Fax, I had a question after seeing the races with Barbarian as the Favored Class. Namely, how much are you changing everyone's favorite berserker? I've always thought of them as very nicely balanced and one of the most fun classes to play in the game (Option A: I go into Rage; Option B: I smash it with my greataxe).

I know you already said that you're changing up the druid a whole lot, but will the barbarian be a little tweak or a complete overhaul?

I actually have done zero brainstorming for the barbarian, so I couldn't tell you.

[Lappy9000]

Okay, I've been reading d20 Rebirth in-depth for a bit now, and I'd like to put up my opinions on it.

1) Races: Wow. So far, these are great. I especially like how you've managed to avoid copious Level Adjustment and Racial Hit Dice as well as working in a few non-humanoid races. The abilities of the races scale in well with their fluff, and the scaling abilities are great. Bumping up the power of all the races a bit was a good idea to help keep everyone in line. I eagerly await the rest of the core races.

2) Classes: Here, I find myself less enthuiastic. Honestly, I simply don't like a lot of them. It really bugs me, since I can't find any constructive reasons why I don't like them. Part of that I don't think 22 base classes is necessary because it gets hard on both the players and the DM to imagine a sense of versimilitude in the world. However, I can see why you did this; representing all the awesome ideas from 3.5's many sourcebooks makes for plenty of variety. But quite frankly, most of them may look better as Prestige Classes. To sum it up, I really only like the dreadnaught, the monk, and parts of the ranger. And the lack of fighters makes me sad beyond reason :smallfrown:

3) Skills: Skill Sets are freakin' great. Probably the best thing I've seen happen to skills. Removing only a few skills is nice from 4e's complete purge.

4) Feats: Investing Feats seems like an awesome idea, although I haven't read everything since so much is changed. I also like the number of racial feats available.

5) Equipment: Biblios and Librum are....weird. Really weird, but in a good exotic kind of way. I'm assuming wizards get proficiency with one of these? Seeing a barbarion wielding a weapon filled with scrolls seems....out of place.

6) Monsters: I love the Winged Weapon, while the Living Spellseed is also pretty cool.

Overall, I like it all with the exception of the classes. You're doing some great work here.

[MammonAzrael]

Don't forget there are still more base classes in 3.5 than Fax's d20r.

And don't miss Cartomancy! :smallbiggrin:

[Lappy9000]

Don't forget there are still more base classes in 3.5 than Fax's d20r.

And don't miss Cartomancy! :smallbiggrin:Oh, I know. That's why I imagine he's writing up so many. And the Cartomancy...just don't like it :smallfrown:

Gets points for being cool, though.

[Frog Dragon]

If you're looking for ideas on how to kill the xp cost system (with fire) then you might want to look into my method. Can be found in my extended signature. If you ever even happen to need such a penalty system for your system.:smallsmile:

[Fax Celestis]

2) Classes: Here, I find myself less enthuiastic. Honestly, I simply don't like a lot of them. It really bugs me, since I can't find any constructive reasons why I don't like them. Part of that I don't think 22 base classes is necessary because it gets hard on both the players and the DM to imagine a sense of versimilitude in the world. However, I can see why you did this; representing all the awesome ideas from 3.5's many sourcebooks makes for plenty of variety. But quite frankly, most of them may look better as Prestige Classes. To sum it up, I really only like the dreadnaught, the monk, and parts of the ranger. And the lack of fighters makes me sad beyond reason :smallfrown:Two things: as I stated before, if there are multiple permutations of "spellcaster" (wizard, sorcerer, druid, cleric...), but only one permutation of "fighter", it doesn't make sense. So what I've tried to do here is make a class for each style of fighter (finesse for Fencer, brute for Dreadnaught, leader for Warlord, etc.)

The other thing I'm trying to do with each class is give them options. Fencers have maneuvers and monks have strikes, for instance.


3) Skills: Skill Sets are freakin' great. Probably the best thing I've seen happen to skills. Removing only a few skills is nice from 4e's complete purge. Skill sets will be changing a little, but that's mostly just polishing the idea: nothing drastic.


5) Equipment: Biblios and Librum are....weird. Really weird, but in a good exotic kind of way. I'm assuming wizards get proficiency with one of these? Seeing a barbarion wielding a weapon filled with scrolls seems....out of place.I want to make exotic weapons both "exotic" and "worth the feat".

[Morty]

Two things: as I stated before, if there are multiple permutations of "spellcaster" (wizard, sorcerer, druid, cleric...), but only one permutation of "fighter", it doesn't make sense. So what I've tried to do here is make a class for each style of fighter (finesse for Fencer, brute for Dreadnaught, leader for Warlord, etc.)


Here is where I have some doubts. I feel like there's no class for a style of combat I feel is left out of D&D, i.e a mobile, agile fighter who, nevertheless, isn't a rapier-wielding finesse fencer. You might say I've always wanted to see a fighter between Dreadnought and Fencer.

[WaterTengu]

Now that i look at that bit again, i also notice there is no knight. Or at least nothing that sounds like a horse-riding, damsel-saving, armor-wearing, non-spellcasting, hunk of a man (or woman). the paladin does that, but not in quite the same way.

[Fax Celestis]

Here is where I have some doubts. I feel like there's no class for a style of combat I feel is left out of D&D, i.e a mobile, agile fighter who, nevertheless, isn't a rapier-wielding finesse fencer. You might say I've always wanted to see a fighter between Dreadnought and Fencer.

I haven't gotten to the Barbarian yet. :smalltongue:


Now that i look at that bit again, i also notice there is no knight. Or at least nothing that sounds like a horse-riding, damsel-saving, armor-wearing, non-spellcasting, hunk of a man (or woman). the paladin does that, but not in quite the same way.

You can do that with either a Warlord or a Dreadnaught, but I see what you're saying.

[Morty]

I haven't gotten to the Barbarian yet. :smalltongue:


True. I'll shut up now and wait for it.

[Lappy9000]

Two things: as I stated before, if there are multiple permutations of "spellcaster" (wizard, sorcerer, druid, cleric...), but only one permutation of "fighter", it doesn't make sense. So what I've tried to do here is make a class for each style of fighter (finesse for Fencer, brute for Dreadnaught, leader for Warlord, etc.)Ah, that...makes a lot of sense. This put the classes into perspective for me, and also gave me some ideas on how to squeeze 'em all in. Thanks for that; my eyes have been opened :smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

Updated a bunch of links.

[Fax Celestis]

Added link to Halfling.

[Cute_Riolu]

Typo in your sig: "d2r: Xel'gash racial class"

[Fax Celestis]

Typo in your sig: "d2r: Xel'gash racial class"

It's for my brand new d2 system! Totally coin based! :smalltongue:

[MammonAzrael]

It's for my brand new d2 system! Totally coin based! :smalltongue:

I would totally play that.

"I cast Disjunction! Heads I win, Tails you lose!" Muwhahaha!

[Lappy9000]

I would totally play that.

"I cast Disjunction! Heads I win, Tails you lose!" Muwhahaha!You could also use Skittles for a more geometric d2. Think of the corporate tie-ins!

Keep of the Rainbowfell
Forge of Greenapple
Tomb of Horrificly Sour Flavor

[Draz74]

You could also use Skittles for a more geometric d2. Think of the corporate tie-ins!

Keep of the Rainbowfell
Forge of Greenapple
Tomb of Horrificly Sour Flavor


Initiate of the Fivefold Veil (universally considered the strongest PrC in the system)

[Fax Celestis]

Added link to Maenad.

[Fax Celestis]

Added link to kobolds.

[Lappy9000]

Oh! Quick question for you, Fax: Under the Racial Classes is something called the Phrenic. What is that?

[Fax Celestis]

Oh! Quick question for you, Fax: Under the Racial Classes is something called the Phrenic. What is that?

It makes the creature psionic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm).

[Lappy9000]

It makes the creature psionic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm).Ah, thanks for clearing that up; I've never heard of that before.

Quick beef about the races. Will your format for facial adjustments describe why a race has the Ability Bonuses/Penalties that they do? The russiti break from the rest on not doing this, but that may just be because they're older.

[Fax Celestis]

They will, yes...at least, in the print version. Right now, I'm hammering out mechanics. Fluff comes next, and will likely go straight to print from there.

[Fax Celestis]

Added links to gnolls and aasimar.

[Cute_Riolu]

Ah, thanks for clearing that up; I've never heard of that before.

Quick beef about the races. Will your format for facial adjustments describe why a race has the Ability Bonuses/Penalties that they do? The russiti break from the rest on not doing this, but that may just be because they're older.

Facial adjustments generally take one of two forms. A polymorph-esque spell, or a raging barbarian.

[Fax Celestis]

Added links to phrenic creatures and minotaurs.

[Fax Celestis]

Update to Table of Contents to include monsters.

[xanaphia]

Is this going to be turned into a big PDF when it's finished?

I can't decide whether d20r or Serpents and Sewers is cooler. d20r is more in the spirit of the game- Satyr really hates casters and makes them way weaker. I love the Prowess system.

[Morty]

I think the most accurate comparision would be that d20r is 3rd edition D&D like Fax thinks it should be, while Serpents and Sewers is meant to tailor 3rd edition D&D into another playstyle. So they're quite fundamentally different.

[xanaphia]

Yeah. If I wanted to do a Norse mythology or fairytale type campaign, more tough and mysterious, I'd use S&S. But for D&D as normal, I'd use d20r.

[Fax Celestis]

Glorious Logo of Victory courtesy of Flickerdart.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a335/PresidentPSkillz/d20v1.png

[thevorpalbunny]

That is pretty awesome.

[Fax Celestis]

Links to Elf, Bladeweaver, and Racial Feats IV added.

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, so I've set up a twitter account that I'll use to mark what I'm working on currently. You can find it here. (http://twitter.com/FaxCelestis)

[afroakuma]

Icon = win.

[Morty]

While trying to stat out a Dwarven Dreadnaught, I stumbled upon two questions:
1) Will you be doing any significant changes to the magic items? Or is it safe to use the ones from the official WoTC material?
2) Will you be changing the way shields work in a significant manner, so that they don't suck so much?
And on an unrelated note, will NPC classes gain Prowess? If PC wizards and the like do, it'd make sense for more warrior-like NPCs to get them as well. Yeah, I'm a bit fixated upon the way NPCs work.

[Fax Celestis]

1) Will you be doing any significant changes to the magic items? Or is it safe to use the ones from the official WoTC material?You can use them pretty much as-is. I don't think I'll be changing items much.


2) Will you be changing the way shields work in a significant manner, so that they don't suck so much?Likely, though I haven't determined how yet.


And on an unrelated note, will NPC classes gain Prowess? If PC wizards and the like do, it'd make sense for more warrior-like NPCs to get them as well. Yeah, I'm a bit fixated upon the way NPCs work.

Yes, they will, albeit at a slower rate than an equivalent PC (ie: a Warrior gains bonus feats slower than a Fighter in standard 3.5).

[MammonAzrael]

2) Will you be changing the way shields work in a significant manner, so that they don't suck so much?

You know, one option that just occured to me (and I'm sure hase been thought of by others first), is to give them a displacement-like effect. For instance, Light Shields offer a flat 10% chance of an attack missing you, Heavy shields 20%. Or something.

[Zeta Kai]

I just hope that Fax fixes the poison system so that it's, you know, actually poisonous. Toxic substances practically don't exist in 3rd edition. Most poisons in the real world far outstrip the lethality of even the worst poisons in D&D. It's embarrassing, really.

[Morty]

You know, one option that just occured to me (and I'm sure hase been thought of by others first), is to give them a displacement-like effect. For instance, Light Shields offer a flat 10% chance of an attack missing you, Heavy shields 20%. Or something.

Yes, it's an idea I've seen around a few times and I think it has some merit. The question itself occured to me while writing up a typical heavily armored dwarf with axe and shield.

[Fax Celestis]

I just hope that Fax fixes the poison system so that it's, you know, actually poisonous. Toxic substances practically don't exist in 3rd edition. Most poisons in the real world far outstrip the lethality of even the worst poisons in D&D. It's embarrassing, really.

I will, believe you me. Mostly I'll make them act more quickly, but also probably more frequently.

[Fax Celestis]

Updated link to new Skill Sets mechanic.

[UserClone]

As a sort of aside (I don't know whether you will like it, but I am loving the idea), what do you think of the initiative rules found in Donjon (http://open.crngames.com/src/donjon.html)? I think it could work well, only you'd have to change Imp. Initiative to +1 instead of +4. Basically, you have as many Standard actions as you have initiative bonus. You roll that many d20s, and the GM counts down from 20. You get an action on any count for which you have a die showing that number. to level the playing field a bit, though, I'd say that if you have any matching initiative dice (matching with one or more of your own, that is) you'd combine them into one action, giving that action +1 to its rolled initiative number for each matching die beyond the first (the reason I say this helps level the field a bit is that the more dice you roll, the more chance you have to match two or more and therefore have fewer actions than you do dice, keeping it more fair to those that). The only problem that I see with it is that those without a bonus wouldn't get even the normal allotment of actions, so you could scale it up by 2, to make it 2+dex mod+misc.

It's a hack that doesn't really match D&D per se, but it could do a lot towards keeping people interested in the game when it isn't their turn, because they could still have turns left this round. Of course, you'd probably want to limit spells used per round (perhaps to 1/2 your caster level in spell levels per round, with cantrips/orisons counting as 0) [/unrelatedstreamofconciousness] :)

[Lappy9000]

Fax, seriously, you should slow down before your homebrewing power becomes too great.

:thog:: nale! what do goggles say about silly man's power level?

:nale:: It's....OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND!!!:furious:

:thog:: yay! nine thousand!

[Fax Celestis]

As a sort of aside (I don't know whether you will like it, but I am loving the idea), what do you think of the initiative rules found in Donjon (http://open.crngames.com/src/donjon.html)? I think it could work well, only you'd have to change Imp. Initiative to +1 instead of +4. Basically, you have as many Standard actions as you have initiative bonus. You roll that many d20s, and the GM counts down from 20. You get an action on any count for which you have a die showing that number. to level the playing field a bit, though, I'd say that if you have any matching initiative dice (matching with one or more of your own, that is) you'd combine them into one action, giving that action +1 to its rolled initiative number for each matching die beyond the first (the reason I say this helps level the field a bit is that the more dice you roll, the more chance you have to match two or more and therefore have fewer actions than you do dice, keeping it more fair to those that). The only problem that I see with it is that those without a bonus wouldn't get even the normal allotment of actions, so you could scale it up by 2, to make it 2+dex mod+misc.

It's a hack that doesn't really match D&D per se, but it could do a lot towards keeping people interested in the game when it isn't their turn, because they could still have turns left this round. Of course, you'd probably want to limit spells used per round (perhaps to 1/2 your caster level in spell levels per round, with cantrips/orisons counting as 0) [/unrelatedstreamofconciousness] :)

I like it, but one of the biggest breakers of the 3.x game (including d20r) is action advantage. Giving pretty much anybody multiple actions per round could work well for some systems--I just don't think it would turn out well for this one.

[Morty]

Hm, so I have a Dwarven Dreadaught and a Goblin Ranger written up, both on 4th level, although I still have to give them skills - I'll wait until Fax finishes updating the skill sets. What's noteworthy is that the dwarf's got 54 HP on 4th level, something I don't think is achieveable by most 3.5 characters.

[Siosilvar]

Fax, seriously, you should slow down before your homebrewing power becomes too great.

:thog:: nale! what do goggles say about silly man's power level?

:nale:: It's....OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND!!!:furious:

:thog:: yay! nine thousand!

[/lurk]
The goggles! They do nothing!
[/offtopic]

Fax, you rock. Just for trying to do this.

[Eldrys]

I was wondering if you were going off the assumption that everyone using this system will have 3.5 handbooks because I see you referencing the PH a lot

[Bandededed]

I was wondering if you were going off the assumption that everyone using this system will have 3.5 handbooks because I see you referencing the PH a lot

3.5 handbooks, D20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/), same difference

[Lappy9000]

Hey Fax....about those Racial Paragons; are you really planning to make 32? I think that doing so may very well over-work your creativity.

Honestly, there is only so much crunch that you can squeeze out of a race. I'd save it for a supplement, or throw it out entirely.

[Zeta Kai]

Hey Fax....about those Racial Paragons; are you really planning to make 32? I think that doing so may very well over-work your creativity.

Honestly, there is only so much crunch that you can squeeze out of a race. I'd save it for a supplement, or throw it out entirely.

Oh, racial paragons are easy. They're only 3 levels each. Unless ol' Fax is planning something unusually for his paragon classes, I'd bet that he could bang 'em all out in a day.

Of course, that could be a day that he could spend to work on other things...

[Eldrys]

Do you have an estimate on the time of completion. I really want to play.

And also, do you have any plans to produce a complete printable post that comes out like a book(cause that would be awesome--but hard).

[Willfor]

I can't say I can speak for Fax, but the usual reply in cases where the designer is otherwise occupied with other jobs, and working on a project when they can is the standard "when it's done." I'm pretty sure a more definitive response would be impossible to give unless he has himself on a strict schedule.

[Eldrys]

Can you make a race that can fly? Like the Raptoran from Races of the Wild.

[bue52]

Hey Fax are you still continuing with the D20 rebirth series? Do you mind if I use what you currently have to play a game here on the Oots forum, or maybe the mythweavers forum? Also I'd like to commend you for your wondrous effort and ingenious concepts to reform the game :smallsmile:

[Lappy9000]

According to Fax's Twitter (http://twitter.com/FaxCelestis), he just needs to get himself motivated again. I imagine there's a lot of brainstorming/background work going on as well.

[afroakuma]

Well, hopefully he pops back to the forums, at the very least.

But yes, give the man his space and time. And length, height and depth...

[arguskos]

Dude can take as long as he wants! I don't really like most of his work, but the dedication he has to it is amazing. Most people can't bring themselves to focus on a project like this, but Fax can. Gogo Fax! :smallbiggrin:

[Al-Ashrad]

Dude can take as long as he wants! I don't really like most of his work, but the dedication he has to it is amazing. Most people can't bring themselves to focus on a project like this, but Fax can. Gogo Fax! :smallbiggrin:

I fully agree with you. The guy can take off for as long as he wants. I'm also not a fan of everything in the Rebirth, but this is the most ambitious, and well thought-out, item I've ever seen here. And I've already "lifted" the Skills and Skill Sets section and the Investing Feats section from here for the d20 Middle Earth Homebrew that I'm working on (although I'm also looking at what "Iron Heroes" did with in their "investing feats" too for some ideas).

Keep it up, Fax. :smallcool:

[Lappy9000]

Can you make a race that can fly? Like the Raptoran from Races of the Wild.He already has. Check out the Ameena (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10858).

Personally, if nothing else, I think everyone should take a note of how Fax handled the races, my absolute favorite part of the project so far. The streamlined (but not purged, like in 4e) skill systems and the investing/racial feats are also tremendously amazing.

[Lappy9000]

I remembered some discussion about Favored Class on the Dwarf racial thread. While browsing the Faxapedia, I was looking at Serpents and Sewers. Satyr had the interesting idea of granting either 1 bonus hit point or skill point to a race that takes levels in their favored class. This also works for humans and their knack for always having oodles of skills.

[UserClone]

That's an idea that is actually cannibalized from the Pathfinder roleplaying game made by Paizo, or the Beta version thereof, at least. Not that it isn't a much better idea than multiclassing penalties.

[Satyr]

Hey... it [i]is[//I] a better idea as a gratification works better as a motivator than a punishment. This is basic didactics.
And in Serpents and Sewers, characters have actually at least 3 favorite classes (2 per species, and one class which is favorised by everyone) and can get more through an individual background which is determined at the character creation, up to 5 in total (or six, if the character has a template).

Favorite classes are an interesting tool to form an interconnection between the social and cultural background of a character and his or her later career, as people are formed by the societies they derive from. This works in Serpents and Sewers, as the cultural background is not limited to the character's species, but has an additional (admitedly shallow) level for the cultural background.