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View Full Version : Waterlogged Bows/X-bows in 3.5



Ent
2008-12-07, 01:47 AM
Should there be any effect/penalty for bows or crossbows (and their ammunition) being exposed to water in the following conditions:

-during rainfall, but carried/being (maybe partially protected by cloak)
-5-10 minutes submerged or part of a short swim
-an hour long exposure, submerged

Should they not work as well till dried out? Should salt water be worse?

I can more or less guess at how unattended, non-magical things will break down over time, but am looking for educated opinions about these situations. I'm thinking a temporary reduction in range, and maybe a -1 penalty on the attack roll, but nothing to set a PC back.

Keld Denar
2008-12-07, 02:01 AM
You could, but then it would just be one more thing to track that wouldn't add TOO much depth to the game.

In real life, a long bow or recurved bow does not normally remain strung at all times. To do so puts excessive strain on the wood, which could lead to premature cracking or warpage. You don't see very many D&D characters taking their first 3-4 actions in combat to string up their bow though, do you? Its just another minor thing that gets brushed under the rug.

Plus, not really for ammo, but most wooden weapons like bows or axe handles were coated in oils made from boiled animal fats. These oils could provide a protective coat for the wood, keeping moisture out. That would protect the bow itself from the dangers of all but total complete immersion.

Chrono22
2008-12-07, 02:04 AM
Bows of masterwork quality and higher will probably have some water resistant coatings, so I would not give them any penalty. Otherwise, a waterlogged bow will be more pliable, and so the draw strength would be reduced. Halving the range increment of a waterlogged bow would work.

Another, different problem I could see with a wet bow is the bowstring. A wet bowstring has a different tension from a dry one, so that could interfere with the draw too (imposing a -1 to hit). Restringing the bow could remove the penalty. Drying the bowstring by fire would probably ruin it (it would shrink).

Carrying a bow in anything less than a severe rainstorm shouldn't damage the bow.
Submerging the bow would wet the bowstring (imposing a -1 penalty to hit until the bowstring dries normally or the bow is restrung).
Hour long submersion would waterlog the bow (range increment halved until the bow is dry. Exposing a waterlogged bow to heat in an effort to dry it quickly can potentially ruin the bow.)

RTGoodman
2008-12-07, 02:11 AM
Yeah, I agree with Keld Denar, you could do it and it wouldn't be TOO bad, but it's probably unnecessary. I mean, I guess you could say a character that took a wooden bow down under the sea for several days might need to take some time to dry it and maybe apply a little Craft (Bowmaking) skill to make sure it's alright, but otherwise I think it's fine.

That said, I think a -1 to attacks would be fine for some prolonged exposed (more than just a few rounds), and maybe a penalty to range, but not TOO much. Also, magic bows probably should be resist to it completely, and masterwork somewhat.

@Keld: You know, I swear I've seen the rules for stringing a bow somewhere, and it's not really that long. Most bowstrings (I would think) would have the little loop already tied at the end, and the standard step-through method (which we used when I took archery) only takes maybe 5-10 seconds. I'm thinking it's probably a full-round action that provokes AoOs, but I can't find anything RAW about it.

RS14
2008-12-07, 02:12 AM
I found this (http://books.google.com/books?id=55V9l_8hrQMC&pg=PA220&lpg=PA220&dq=water+wooden+bow+damage&source=web&ots=JqO25K_rqY&sig=ce0BKUoi0mX5GXdpVXer1WMEPR8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result).
Basically, damage can be prevented, particularly with a good bow. However, I imagine the string will still get waterlogged and thus cause some problems.

I don't really think it adds much to D&D, personally.

AmberVael
2008-12-07, 02:53 AM
Sure, and then we could add in rules for rusting, and then rules about armor and weapon repair, and then we could define eating and sleeping in exact terms...
And then your players would probably get irritated and force feed you your DM screen. :smallwink:

I mean, if it is the type of thing your players go for, sure, fine, it's cool and I think you've got a decent idea of what the mechanics should be (though I agree with masterwork/magic weapons having waterproofing). But I can't see a lot of people getting thrilled with the level of detail there.

Ent
2008-12-07, 03:03 AM
Thanks for the feedback.

Late at night my mind wanders into questions about game like this, but in game I usually go with the less realistic approach to these situations as well.

This came up after I had some archers waiting under shallow water (using reeds to breath) ambush a party; it turned into a very cinematic fight with the PCs wading into the water after a volley or two of arrows.

Kizara
2008-12-07, 04:24 AM
Sure, and then we could add in rules for rusting, and then rules about armor and weapon repair, and then we could define eating and sleeping in exact terms...
And then your players would probably get irritated and force feed you your DM screen. :smallwink:

I mean, if it is the type of thing your players go for, sure, fine, it's cool and I think you've got a decent idea of what the mechanics should be (though I agree with masterwork/magic weapons having waterproofing). But I can't see a lot of people getting thrilled with the level of detail there.

I'd be interested in listening to some rules for repairing and rusting, anybody have some good ones?


Also comprehensive rules for wear/breakage through excessive use would be nice. The hardness/hp rules are fine, but like most things, there is no accounting for reduction in effectiveness through damage barring complete destruction.

daggaz
2008-12-07, 05:37 AM
It takes days to make a half-way decent bow, masterwork or not. For this reason, even the most rudimentary bows are heavily treated with rendered fat. You dont want the rain ruining your work and your ability to eat, do you? The string is usually made from sinew, horse hair, or intestine, and is also heavily greased.

Bows can be fully immersed in water for longer periods of time without harm. Arrows, if made well, will also fare well, tho the feathers might rot in time.

Even if it weren't true, there's better, more fun ways to screw your players up.

Heliomance
2008-12-07, 08:24 AM
I hink a highly experienced archer can string a bow really quite fast. Move action, I'd have said, maybe standard.

Kizara
2008-12-07, 08:58 AM
I hink a highly experienced archer can string a bow really quite fast. Move action, I'd have said, maybe standard.

It's equivilental to drawing a greatsword. Just class it under the drawing a weapon action; you could make it provoke an AoO if you wanted to be pendanic about it.

Fan
2008-12-07, 09:02 AM
The above seems reasonable.
Thats IF you want to include stringing your bow in game.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-07, 09:18 AM
This is just one of those areas where attention to detail makes the game merely more complex, not more interesting or fun. We also don't need to know how, or how often, characters bathe or clean their teeth.

Flickerdart
2008-12-07, 10:46 AM
This is just one of those areas where attention to detail makes the game merely more complex, not more interesting or fun. We also don't need to know how, or how often, characters bathe or clean their teeth.
The Orc Barbarian demands you change that statement to "if".

Shpadoinkle
2008-12-07, 03:38 PM
Sure, and then we could add in rules for rusting, and then rules about armor and weapon repair, and then we could define eating and sleeping in exact terms...

You forgot rules for urination and defecation, and rules for how frequently these will need to occur based on what and how much the characters have been eating and drinking.

Oh, and we can't forget the rules for stubbed toes!

Curmudgeon
2008-12-07, 03:55 PM
Oh, and we can't forget the rules for stubbed toes! Hangnails. I hate hangnails! :smalleek:

Immutep
2008-12-07, 05:12 PM
Thanks for the feedback.

Late at night my mind wanders into questions about game like this, but in game I usually go with the less realistic approach to these situations as well.

This came up after I had some archers waiting under shallow water (using reeds to breath) ambush a party; it turned into a very cinematic fight with the PCs wading into the water after a volley or two of arrows.

FYI it would be untracable in a game situation as there are far too many variables to consider, some bows and bowstrings are made of metal which would react in the opposite way to wood. different woods and materials for bow-string would react in different ways too! To cover the basics though here are some guidelines from my days of archery that might help.

Wooden bows are usually coated (strings as well) in beeswax which has a waterproofing quality in addition to helping keep the wood and string flexible (i.e. not brittle) so standard usage of the bow in even a temperate environment would not make a noticable difference.

If you submerged the bow in water then tried to fire it, the water will act as a more powerful resistant force than air and would slow the shot down astronomically (to the point of innefectual).

A wet bow string adds the weight of the water droplets to the resistance of the recoil and so reduces the the amount of stored energy transfered from the "pull".

If you find a bow at the bottom of the lake it will more than likely be useless unless very recently left there.

Somebody (quite rightly) pointed out that it's a bad idea to keep a bow strung at the ready unless in use, but if you wanted to factor this then remember the following:
It would drop any strenght bonus the bow had (even going into reductions of damage) at a rate that would be roughly -1 to damage -10' to range per week left in that state, but would not reduce bows effectiveness by more than 1/3.
most archers would leave their bows "half strung" that is to say one part of the string in place the other loop halfway down the wood. So when called upon to string their weapon they can do so within a matter of seconds (perhaps 18 seconds/3 actions for inexperienced, but a trained archer managing this in around 6 seconds/1 action. possible need for a skill list or dex check)
The poster that was first to reply was quite right in saying that this level of attention to detail will more than likely end up ruining friendships, strogley reccomend just keeping this stuff for your own ammusement (if that's the right word).

Immutep
2008-12-07, 05:26 PM
I'd be interested in listening to some rules for repairing and rusting, anybody have some good ones?


Also comprehensive rules for wear/breakage through excessive use would be nice. The hardness/hp rules are fine, but like most things, there is no accounting for reduction in effectiveness through damage barring complete destruction.

The key worry for rust is that you'd have to factre in things like it being less effective against armour but more likely to cause (more) damage (Leaving lumps of oxygenated iron in your blood ect.)
Also, you can only remove the rust off a blade so often before you've got no blade left! I think this is one of the reasons that second hand weapons sell for half the price of a brand new one (it's not all just about shop keepers greed!) I think it's best left alone and assumed that so long as your gear gets regular maintenance in your downtime to reprisent sharpening blades and repairing dints in shield/armour then you'll be ok. I've never created a character that didn't have a whetstone in his kit ( dispite the lack of rules requiring this attention) and it was generally assumed he kept his kit in good order whenever a spare moment cropped up. As a DM, you could keep a secret eye on wether the PC's were able to do this and apply penalties for old kit that couldn't/definately wasn't being maintained. :amused:

metagaia
2008-12-07, 05:50 PM
As reagrds to submerged bows, the ranges penalties underwater are already so steep that you either have to ignore an additional bow penalty or houserule that they flat out don't work underwater, either seems fair.