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herrhauptmann
2008-12-07, 02:37 AM
I've long known the name of Pun-pun and the fact that he breaks the game. But it wasn't until recently that I heard that Punpun was actually a character someone made...
Is there anyone here who actually knows how Punpun was built and how it worked (even if those rules have been revised since then).

AmberVael
2008-12-07, 02:45 AM
For future reference, Google is your friend.
For now, here is a link, found very quickly by said friend.
Linky! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801)

KBF
2008-12-07, 02:49 AM
Aw man, I was so close too. Stupid internet going all slow. But yes, please use Google for these often referenced things. It saves the community alot of time and effort, and you too can seem like a longstanding member without actually doing much. *cough*

RTGoodman
2008-12-07, 02:50 AM
First, Pun-Pun is NOT a character - he's a theoretical optimization exercise that was NEVER meant to be played.

The method has actually gotten EASIER with more splatbooks, to where now it's achievable at 1st level. Vael linked the original thread (and about using Google), but here's a quick, updated breakdown (as accurately as I can remember).

Start with a Kobold Paladin 1, with ranks in Knowledge (The Planes), Skill Focus in the same, and stuff like that. Make a DC 20 or 25 (I forgot which) Knowledge (The Planes) check, which tells you about the Demon Lord Pazuzu.

Pazuzu has this nasty habit of offering free wishes to people, and ESPECIALLY to Paladins, and usually gives a Paladin the first wish free AND without an alignment hit. The thing is, it only takes calling out "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu" to summon him. Basically, once said Paladin does so, he wishes for a Candle of Invocation, which he then uses to summon an Efreeti (or whatever genie it is that can grant three wishes).

He wishes to be planeshifted to somewhere (so he can use another gate to get an "extraplanar" creature from the material plane), wishes for a way to gate in a Sarrukh (from the Serpent Kingdoms splatbook), and then commences to use its Manipulate Form ability to give himself literally every ability in the game.


Did I miss anything?

NecroRebel
2008-12-07, 02:53 AM
Pun-pun, the mighty kobold, (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) has never, to my knowledge, technically been fully statted out; instead, it is a theoretically possible build which is outlined in the link provided.

Put simply, the build relies on taking the form of a Sarrukh such that one has the Manipulate Form supernatural ability, giving the same power to an allied creature (the original build used a wizard's familiar), then morphing back to normal and having the altered creature give you any and all abilities that you could possibly desire, up to and including custom-built abilities made via epic spell-like abilities.

In truth, the build doesn't even technically have to be a kobold; the wording on Manipulate Form is such that, if one so desired, one could bestow upon a Scaled One a version of Manipulate Form that functioned on any creature type. Kobold-ness just makes it easier, to the extent where it has since been accomplished as a Kobold Paladin 1 via a deal with a devil, Wish, and Planar Binding abuse.

Really, just read the link. It explains it all.

KBF
2008-12-07, 02:56 AM
Did I miss anything?

Yes. You forgot the part where we uses cheese from leadership to gather worshipers and become a deity. That is kind of a side thing though, so I don't blame you.

Wow, the way you put it makes it seem so simple.

Crow
2008-12-07, 02:57 AM
He can't do that at 1st level. He doesn't have the 1500 xp to use the Gate spell from the candle in the way he wants to use it. The Candle gives him the ability to cast the spell, but doesn't pay any of the experience cost associated with it.

RTGoodman
2008-12-07, 03:09 AM
He can't do that at 1st level. He doesn't have the 1500 xp to use the Gate spell from the candle in the way he wants to use it. The Candle gives him the ability to cast the spell, but doesn't pay any of the experience cost associated with it.

Yeah, but I guess he could probably find some way to just make the original Pazuzu wish get him the Efreeti.

I mean, it's THE theoretical optimization exercise - SOMEONE will figure out how to do it.

NecroRebel
2008-12-07, 03:15 AM
Yeah, but I guess he could probably find some way to just make the original Pazuzu wish get him the Efreeti.

I mean, it's THE theoretical optimization exercise - SOMEONE will figure out how to do it.

I had thought that the 1st-level version used Pazuzu to acquire a Ring of Three Wishes and then used the Ring to Plane Shift elsewhere, Greater Planar Bind the Sarrukh, and then go nuts. I've been known to be wrong about such things, though.

RTGoodman
2008-12-07, 03:23 AM
I had thought that the 1st-level version used Pazuzu to acquire a Ring of Three Wishes and then used the Ring to Plane Shift elsewhere, Greater Planar Bind the Sarrukh, and then go nuts. I've been known to be wrong about such things, though.

Ah, yep, that could probably work. The only difference, I'd think, is that it'd probably be easier to get a candle via wish than a ring of three wishes. The candle is worth 8,400 gp, which really isn't that much, while the ring costs a whopping 97,950 gp. Of course, the wish spell doesn't put price limits on the magic items you can get (unlike the 25,000 limit on non-magical ones), so really the ring is probably your best choice.

Either way, you're PUN-PUN - little things like XP and gold and such will all cease to be important in a short amount of time. :smallwink:

jcsw
2008-12-07, 03:47 AM
Pazuzu has this nasty habit of offering free wishes to people, and ESPECIALLY to Paladins, and usually gives a Paladin the first wish free AND without an alignment hit.

/nitpick
You still get the alignment hit if you're a paladin. It just says he avoids corrupting the wish.

BobVosh
2008-12-07, 04:32 AM
/nitpick
You still get the alignment hit if you're a paladin. It just says he avoids corrupting the wish.

Yep, you become a fallen paladin. Oh horrors...Not like it was a good class in comparison to being able to do everything ever with every stat wherever you want it.

Also that isn't the original build Originally it was about level 12. Took like 4 posts to knock it down to level 5. Further since then.

*edit* Does anyone have the link for the Pally Punpun build?

Waspinator
2008-12-07, 04:41 AM
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/8553/rageyt9.jpg

Mando Knight
2008-12-07, 11:43 AM
Yay! Clone trooper helmet and the full-auto Nerf gun!

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-12-07, 01:57 PM
Well, the stormtrooper helmet will cause the gun to auto-miss =D

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-07, 02:05 PM
Well, the stormtrooper helmet will cause the gun to auto-miss =D

Nah, the problem isn't with the helmet, it's with the Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy.

And I thought the cheezy way to do PunPun was with a Kobold and a Lizard familiar. Polycheeze your familiar into a Sarrukh, have familiar turn you into one. Grant familiar stuff, share familiar gets you stuff, repeat as needed.

jcsw
2008-12-07, 02:09 PM
Nah, the problem isn't with the helmet, it's with the Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy.

And I thought the cheezy way to do PunPun was with a Kobold and a Lizard familiar. Polycheeze your familiar into a Sarrukh, have familiar turn you into one. Grant familiar stuff, share familiar gets you stuff, repeat as needed.

Well, the Pazuzu method is cheesier, in the same sense that the ocean is wetter than the sea.

Mephit
2008-12-07, 02:18 PM
It's funny how many loopholes you can find in the system to accomplish the same thing. :smallbiggrin:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-07, 02:24 PM
It's funny how many loopholes you can find in the system to accomplish the same thing. :smallbiggrin:It's not loopholes to accomplish it, it's loopholes being used to get it that early. Pun-Pun exists because someone at WotC was an idiot and made an ability that's way too powerful. There are a dozen ways of gaining a monster's power for a short period of time, Pun-Pun has used all of them at one point or another in his development.

Tokiko Mima
2008-12-07, 03:19 PM
I think Pun-Pun is a cautionary tale to game-developers: Never create a power/feat/ability/spell to give to your monsters that you don't fully intend for a clever player to somehow acquire.

Waspinator
2008-12-07, 03:32 PM
Well, the stormtrooper helmet will cause the gun to auto-miss =D

Luckily, it's a CLONEtrooper, not a stormtrooper! You fail your nerdage check! :smalltongue:

Bayar
2008-12-07, 03:44 PM
I remember that when you used the wishes from the effereti, you wished:

1. Plane Shift to Toril
2. Make you a Scaled one of Toril
3. Summon a Sarrukh.

Then you just command the Sarrukh to give you manipulate form.